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What is your view on abortion ?


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20 minutes ago, ItsTheTruthThough said:

Can you please point me to the part where I said any of these scenarios applied to me that were given as some of many examples that were not black and white as to why someone may choose an abortion?

 

There's confusion here because you never actually stated or implied that you were combining your own personal situation with a variety of hypothetical situations.

You said:

5 hours ago, ItsTheTruthThough said:

No, as it’s not the fathers body it’s nothing to do with him in forcing the woman against her will to be an incubator and potentially die (giving birth almost resulted in my death and is dangerous for women which has to count)

 

I replied:

4 hours ago, Storm in the garden said:

If you were forced against your will that's called rape, so did you report it? I'm sure if you did you would be encouraged to take the morning after pill.

 

It's obvious from that reply that I assumed you were talking about yourself. However you never corrected my misinterpretation of your message.

You simply replied:

4 hours ago, ItsTheTruthThough said:

I never said forced into sex, you asked if the father is not important in the decision about a child and I said no he cannot force her to be an incubator against her will should a pregnancy occur.

 

However to clarify, if a hypothetical woman was in a hypothetical situation which was a combination of the hypothetical possibilities you put forward (two kids, no fathers, mental health issues, failing contraceptives) AND your stated position (high risk of dying in childbirth) I would still be of the same opinion that this hypothetical woman should examine her life choices rather than simply carry on following in the same pattern and using abortion as a failsafe option.

 

2 hours ago, Basket Case said:

You don't have the right to make such assumptions and ask such pointed invasive questions.
You also don't have the right to try to assign blame and guilt either..
Lucky you, if you never found yourself in such a difficult position with such a serious decision to make.

 

As you can see from the above there was confusion due to the poster combining her personal information with hypothetical situations in the same posts and not clarifying when it became obvious I was assuming they were all the actions of one person. Given that and the fact that they appeared to be using their personal situation to argue their case, i think I should be entitled to ask pertinent questions, which they may choose to decline answering should they so wish.

We all make assumptions about people on a daily basis, including you, unless of course you'd feel quite comfortable walking towards the three guys  standing in the deserted park at dusk, brandishing a hatchet. If that's the case then you're unique.

If we don't have the right to assign blame or guilt, then I think as a moderator you're going to have to remove around half the posts on this site. How much blame or guilt has been attached to the people who are wearing masks for example?

3 hours ago, Basket Case said:

l'm a male.
l don't agree with abortion.
l was with a partner who became unintentionally pregnant.
She decided that she didn't want it. (for many reasons which are none of anyone's business)

l did want her to have it.
She had an abortion.
l respected her decision because it's her body. l explained my position, but l had no right to try to persuade her any further.
No government, no religion or anyone has any right to tell a woman what to do with something in HER body, which is attached and PART of her body.
l agree on a humane and practical timescale.
lt must be done as quickly as possible.
3 months absolute maximum in my opinion.
Any later and the baby that eventually gets born should then be safely adopted.

 

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. My opinion would be that if it takes two people to create something, it shouldn't be at the sole discretion of one person to destroy it.

My opinion would also be that the unborn has no way of defending itself and has no ability to speak for itself, so the onus falls on us to try and be that voice if we regard ourselves as civilized, humane beings. 

There are certain situations where abortion is acceptable and ethical (rape, incest, mothers health, severe deformity etc.) but the problem is that once you open that door it becomes distorted and abused, to the point where we now have abortion on demand and some US states allow abortion right up until birth.

You outlined your own personal situation above. I have no wish to comment except to say how I would react in a similar scenario.

I believe that we live and die by our own personal moral compass, and my moral compass would have pointed to the exit door. But then that's just me.

 

3 hours ago, Storm in the garden said:

 

 

 

 

 

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Someone else's body is no one else's business. Anymore than someone should be able to tell you that you have to get a vaccination to save other people's lives.

it's difficult to pontificate on this topic unless you're the one in that position but since the question was asked i would not oppose abortion in cases of rape, incest and if the mothers' life was in

I'm generally pro life, but not sure where I stand on babies born from rape and stuff. I understand decisions that women make are not easy.   The ones that glorify abortion are evil though.

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25 minutes ago, Storm in the garden said:

As you can see from the above there was confusion due to the poster combining her personal information with hypothetical situations in the same posts and not clarifying when it became obvious I was assuming they were all the actions of one person. Given that and the fact that they appeared to be using their personal situation to argue their case, i think I should be entitled to ask pertinent questions, which they may choose to decline answering should they so wish.

We all make assumptions about people on a daily basis, including you, unless of course you'd feel quite comfortable walking towards the three guys  standing in the deserted park at dusk, brandishing a hatchet. If that's the case then you're unique.

If we don't have the right to assign blame or guilt, then I think as a moderator you're going to have to remove around half the posts on this site. How much blame or guilt has been attached to the people who are wearing masks for example?


Yep.....l'm seeing a misunderstanding and confusion now too, especially after reading ItsTheTruthThough post after yours.
l apologise for my part in this confusion.
 

25 minutes ago, Storm in the garden said:

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. My opinion would be that if it takes two people to create something, it shouldn't be at the sole discretion of one person to destroy it.

My opinion would also be that the unborn has no way of defending itself and has no ability to speak for itself, so the onus falls on us to try and be that voice if we regard ourselves as civilized, humane beings. 

There are certain situations where abortion is acceptable and ethical (rape, incest, mothers health, severe deformity etc.) but the problem is that once you open that door it becomes distorted and abused, to the point where we now have abortion on demand and some US states allow abortion right up until birth.

You outlined your own personal situation above. I have no wish to comment except to say how I would react in a similar scenario.

I believe that we live and die by our own personal moral compass, and my moral compass would have pointed to the exit door. But then that's just me.


The first thing is despite it taking 2 to create, it becomes 1 persons sole responsibility. You cannot lay claim to control over a woman's body once you have 'successfully impregnated her'.
She is still a Sovereign being, impregnated or not. 
Secondly - There is no onus on 'us' to speak up for something that isn't born , alive or separate from the 'pregnant woman'.
Thirdly - The only situation acceptable for an abortion is where the woman says. "l don't want this pregnancy". 
Fourthly - l agree that abortion up to the point of birth is totally abhorrent. Within 2 months of conception, ideally , 3 months absolute maximum in my opinion. 
Last point - l did end that relationship. l still loved her. lt broke my heart but I respected her right to make her choice. But l didn't agree with or like her choice. 

l should have the right to say no to anyone wanting to put something into my body. (vaccines etc..)
Just as l should have the right to put anything into it that l wish to. (so called illegal substances etc..)
l own my own body and anything in it, if nothing else...
So does a woman.

 

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40 minutes ago, Basket Case said:


Yep.....l'm seeing a misunderstanding and confusion now too, especially after reading ItsTheTruthThough post after yours.
l apologise for my part in this confusion.
 


The first thing is despite it taking 2 to create, it becomes 1 persons sole responsibility. You cannot lay claim to control over a woman's body once you have 'successfully impregnated her'.
She is still a Sovereign being, impregnated or not. 
Secondly - There is no onus on 'us' to speak up for something that isn't born , alive or separate from the 'pregnant woman'.
Thirdly - The only situation acceptable for an abortion is where the woman says. "l don't want this pregnancy". 
Fourthly - l agree that abortion up to the point of birth is totally abhorrent. Within 2 months of conception, ideally , 3 months absolute maximum in my opinion. 
Last point - l did end that relationship. l still loved her. lt broke my heart but I respected her right to make her choice. But l didn't agree with or like her choice. 

l should have the right to say no to anyone wanting to put something into my body. (vaccines etc..)
Just as l should have the right to put anything into it that l wish to. (so called illegal substances etc..)
l own my own body and anything in it, if nothing else...
So does a woman.

 

 

I agree with that. 

 

Also, and a lot of people won’t agree with this, but abortion assumes that all we are is this body. And if you destroy this body, you have destroyed the person. 

 

But if, you take for example Icke’s idea that in reality, we are infinite consciousness, a field of eternal awareness that has occupied many ‘bodies’ over many  ‘lifetimes’....then the question of abortion becomes an even wider multi-dimensional question.

 

So you can definitely take away the opportunity of this ‘incarnation’ .... but you can’t actually destroy the person if you see beyond us as merely ‘bodies’.

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2 minutes ago, Basket Case said:

Yep.....l'm seeing a misunderstanding and confusion now too, especially after reading ItsTheTruthThough post after yours.
l apologise for my part in this confusion.

 

No need to apologise, it caught me out too...

 

5 minutes ago, Basket Case said:

The first thing is despite it taking 2 to create, it becomes 1 persons sole responsibility. You cannot lay claim to control over a woman's body once you have 'successfully impregnated her'.

 

Hmm, I'd have to disagree. Firstly you're not claiming control you're claiming a vested interest, there's a difference. Part of the fetus is yours (your sperm) without which the fetus would not exist. Secondly it does not become 1 persons sole responsibility as countless males paying child support would testify, should it come to maturity (birth).

And is there even such a thing as a 'sovereign being'? Apparently not if you're talking about masks or vaccines.

 

24 minutes ago, Basket Case said:

Secondly - There is no onus on 'us' to speak up for something that isn't born , alive or separate from the 'pregnant woman'.

 

Well we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one. I think there is.

 

29 minutes ago, Basket Case said:

Thirdly - The only situation acceptable for an abortion is where the woman says. "l don't want this".

 

That's questionable. Can she buy a car, and 3 months later say "I don't want this", return the car and get her money back? And a child is much more important and valuable than any car.

Let's cut the crap for a minute and talk straight. If a woman didn't want to get pregnant and contraception was in fact dodgy, she wouldn't have sex because she knows she might face the majority of the consequences. You can talk about urges and passions all you like but in my experience that's the bottom line. The problem arises if she decides at a later date for whatever reason that she's not prepared to accept the consequences and decides the "I don't want this car" scenario. You may think I'm talking crap but I've been married and raised two girls to adulthood so I think i'm qualified to have an opinion.

 

1 hour ago, Basket Case said:

Fourthly - l agree that abortion up to the point of birth is totally abhorrent. Within 2 months of conception, ideally , 3 months absolute maximum in my opinion.

 

I agree (well,sort of).What happens if one of those months is a February, are you allowed two days grace? What happens if it's a few days over three months, could we squeeze that in? 

Unfortunately certain sections of humanity are  adept at abusing compassionate rules and regulations to their own needs. 

 

1 hour ago, Basket Case said:

Last point - l did end that relationship. l still loved her. lt broke my heart but I respected her right to make her choice. But l didn't agree with or like her choice.

 

I'm genuinely sorry for that.

 

1 hour ago, Basket Case said:

l should have the right to say no to anyone wanting to put something into my body. (vaccines etc..)
Just as l should have the right to put anything into it that l wish to. (so called illegal substances etc..)
l own my own body and anything in it, if nothing else...
So does a woman.

 

Yes, as does a woman who has a right to say no to anyone putting a penis into her body.

However, if she consents to that penis, and if she doesn't want the possibility of pregnancy, she should ensure that either she or her partner have protection.

If she allows that intrusion while not seeking protection and next day not bothering with addressing the situation...well she's not being very responsible is she?

And ultimately, we're all responsible for our own actions.

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I still very clearly said ‘I’ when the one time I referred to myself and never used ‘me’ or ‘I’ when referring to myself so confusion only comes from not reading a post right.

 

I am grateful that the option is there for me should an awful situation arise where there would be no other way out. My partner also supports this as he recognises me as human with rights to my body and also understands that there are some situations where we would have to.

 

There sort of debates did always seem pointless to me really, people are usually extremely pro or against and savagely so. Even in countries where it is illegal, many women still do it themselves at home (or take their own life) If a women really doesn’t want to continue a pregnancy, she will find a way not to. It will always happen like it or not, and it will never be stopped. 
 

The whole debate gets even more complicated when you consider a reasonable cut off point too, I think the 20 week limit here is too high it’s clearly a baby by then and not a fetus but I also know nearly every single abortion performed that late tends to be for medical reasons such as continuing a pregnancy would endanger the mothers life.

 

Then the ones I don’t understand at all are the ones who scream it’s always murder, despite the woman was raped, or continuing the pregnancy has a high danger level for the woman medically, or even that the fetus/baby has a genetic condition meaning it will die at birth or suffer terribly in pain. It’s never black and white. 
 

We may as well force vaccinations on ourselves too to ‘apparently protect other people’ as they say, if we we don’t allow women’s rights to their own body to ‘protect someone else’ And there is no way around that. We rather own our bodies or we don’t.

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Coldrum said:

Warning this is an unsettling video , but informative 

Vpx

 


Surgery has never looked pretty though has it? My mother had surgery on her brain  and I’m sure that looked awful too, videos like this are only made to shock and disturb without giving any thought as to why the procedure is taking place at all.

 

Also, in the first 12-14 weeks it’s usually an abortion pill - medical intervention comes when the fetus it larger and more developed - closer to a baby and having all baby functions and real consciousness. At this point I do find it hard to think about and watch. The cut off point needs to lowered unless it’s a medical reason. 

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the thing about abortion from my research is that it's two-tier. us normal humans, and then the filth who have concubines and thus child sacrifice.

 

there's no doubt that they try to blur the lines so make abortion sound more appealing and humane -- deceitful inverted filth -- so the devils work is done under such a 'humane' scheme. but again, the devil may be at work if the female is also raped and victimised.

 

i still am of the opinion that abortion should be accessible in instances of such crimes.

 

 

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14 hours ago, ItsTheTruthThough said:


Surgery has never looked pretty though has it? My mother had surgery on her brain  and I’m sure that looked awful too

 

It's not really fair though to compare the two in the same line, is it?

After all, one surgery is to save a life and one is to terminate a life.

Anyway, I've made my belief clear in earlier posts so I'll leave it at that...  

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On 5/23/2020 at 11:04 AM, QuodHumana said:

I was a christian before, and i always held the view of abortion is murder.

Being spiritual, i mostly hold that view, but of course it gets technical. But we need to be moral and not technical.

 

I asked the following question once on a spiritual forum: "When does the soul enter womb with regards to pregnancy?". I got many answers ranging from from conception, to about a second before birth. So, it can vary. 

 

I am open to the idea that you can abort the fetus before you hear a heartbeat. I've always also had the argument that abortion is murder except in the cases of rape. My next argument is/was the lady needs to report it as soon as possible, for her not be to pregnant or to "come clean" (for lack of a better term).

 

But look folks, this is such a loaded question, and i would like to think we are all or mostly spiritual people here, and thinking from a spiritual perspective, i would like to here more opinions, and i would definitely change my mind if someone has a compelling argument or answer.

 

"When does the soul enter womb with regards to pregnancy?"

 

This is really the materialist view which I would seriously question. It is essentially the hard question in philosophy, how does consciousness/soul get into matter? With the assumption that matter is here first.

 

What evidence is there to this? 

 

Has anyone ever found or could find matter outside of consciousness? Of course not. So why do we presume so when there is no evidence and after years of study no scientist can explain this. Perhaps it's because it's looking at it the wrong way around.

 

The alternate consciousness only model. Which mirrors our experience and therefore, it could be said, that the experience can be used as some sort of evidence which is more than we have for the matter model.

 

That is that consciousness is and always has been here first. Matter appears out of consciousness. Although there is not 100% evidence to support this model, it's a better foundation to start this line of enquiry in my opinion.

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My view on abortion. Personally I don't like it and wouldn't do it. But who am I to judge somebody that does decide to do it? For whatever their reason, be it rape, or personal preference. It is not my business.

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a few years ago, there was a local ex-satanist in s.africa
who made an in-depth audio series,
exposing very fine details of occult and satanic things...

unfortunately i don't think i can get that series now, as it was a long time ago
and also in a language i do not understand.
(my friends translated the recordings when we had a sit down)


anyway, mentioned in that series was how certain "demons" corrupt the souls
of the aborted children on the astral planes...
and then give them "jobs" to "create" more divorces in the world.

so, i'm just putting this out there
cheers

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  • 3 weeks later...

Abortion is very grave, but nothing compared to sodomy.

Sodomy is indulging is self-destruction.

But ... the people born today in the West are not guided to be bridged with the Christian legacy.

Therefore they suffer and try to express themselves in whichever way seems possible for them.

Murder is the expression by people who have nothing else.

 

A society must always nourish and connect new members with the existing foundations ... if it does not, the young will do whatever they can to get something out of life.

 

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On 7/27/2020 at 12:50 AM, Storm in the garden said:

 

No need to apologise, it caught me out too...

 

 

Hmm, I'd have to disagree. Firstly you're not claiming control you're claiming a vested interest, there's a difference. Part of the fetus is yours (your sperm) without which the fetus would not exist. Secondly it does not become 1 persons sole responsibility as countless males paying child support would testify, should it come to maturity (birth).

And is there even such a thing as a 'sovereign being'? Apparently not if you're talking about masks or vaccines.

 

 

Well we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one. I think there is.

 

 

That's questionable. Can she buy a car, and 3 months later say "I don't want this", return the car and get her money back? And a child is much more important and valuable than any car.

Let's cut the crap for a minute and talk straight. If a woman didn't want to get pregnant and contraception was in fact dodgy, she wouldn't have sex because she knows she might face the majority of the consequences. You can talk about urges and passions all you like but in my experience that's the bottom line. The problem arises if she decides at a later date for whatever reason that she's not prepared to accept the consequences and decides the "I don't want this car" scenario. You may think I'm talking crap but I've been married and raised two girls to adulthood so I think i'm qualified to have an opinion.

 

 

I agree (well,sort of).What happens if one of those months is a February, are you allowed two days grace? What happens if it's a few days over three months, could we squeeze that in? 

Unfortunately certain sections of humanity are  adept at abusing compassionate rules and regulations to their own needs. 

 

 

I'm genuinely sorry for that.

 

 

Yes, as does a woman who has a right to say no to anyone putting a penis into her body.

However, if she consents to that penis, and if she doesn't want the possibility of pregnancy, she should ensure that either she or her partner have protection.

If she allows that intrusion while not seeking protection and next day not bothering with addressing the situation...well she's not being very responsible is she?

And ultimately, we're all responsible for our own actions.


Someone just commented on this thread and reading through l've noticed that l never replied to your post.
4 weeks or so. l got busy / distracted.
.
lt is indeed seemingly 'unfair' that if a woman chooses to keep the child then the Man is expected to contribute financially, even if the Man doesn't 'want it', but the Woman still has the sole choice to 'have or not have it'.
Yes, unbalanced....but there it is.
Even though the Mans sperm is part of the fetus, the fetus is embedded in and becomes part of the Womans body. Which is why l believe it's ever only a Womans choice. 

 

The question of when the Soul or Spirit enters the fetus is a huge subject. l have no solid idea / belief, and am open to debate on this. l used to feel sure it was at the moment of birth but some things l've read and heard suggest it could be at the moment the sperm is absorbed into the egg. Again, a huge existential question.. 


The car analogy might be true for some people, who take life to lax. Some people fall back on abortion as birth control and that is far from ideal, but it shouldn't be stopped because some people abuse their options / choices.
l know more than one woman who reluctantly took the abortion option and grieved deeply afterwards. lt's not something to be taken lightly.
 

The timing issue is there because abortions are available. ( ln some states / countries abortion is available up to full term. Horrid  😟  )  Some universal and sensible guidelines should be considered and used to set a firm time span. Any time over (except in exceptional circumstances) should go full term and then be put forwards for adoption IMO. 


l have more than 2 children. 2 of them were not planned, despite my / our use of contraception. Accidents do happen. lf some people are not in a position to cope then they need a choice. Making a possible hard life harder is not the best of ideas IMO. Telling people not to have sex is really not going to work either, especially in these modern times. Not having sex is ideally the ultimate contraception, but like drugs, just telling people to say 'no' is never going to help in the real world. Sex lies deep withing Mammalian DNA and urges and intellectualising the idea of not having sex because of possible conception is on a one way road to nowhere.. 

Just my 2 pence...BC 

 

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