What is your view on abortion ?

[QuodHumana]

I was a christian before, and i always held the view of abortion is murder.

Being spiritual, i mostly hold that view, but of course it gets technical. But we need to be moral and not technical.

 

I asked the following question once on a spiritual forum: "When does the soul enter womb with regards to pregnancy?". I got many answers ranging from from conception, to about a second before birth. So, it can vary. 

 

I am open to the idea that you can abort the fetus before you hear a heartbeat. I've always also had the argument that abortion is murder except in the cases of rape. My next argument is/was the lady needs to report it as soon as possible, for her not be to pregnant or to "come clean" (for lack of a better term).

 

But look folks, this is such a loaded question, and i would like to think we are all or mostly spiritual people here, and thinking from a spiritual perspective, i would like to here more opinions, and i would definitely change my mind if someone has a compelling argument or answer.

Edited May 23, 2020 by QuodHumana

[alizantil]

Divaldo Franco,  Brazilian medium , channelled essay on the subject:

 

 

CRIMINAL ABORTION

Nothing can justify it.
     An abominable crime, criminal abortion is a cowardly means
used by weaker spirits to flee responsibility, incurring a grave
and not easily erasable state of guilt.
    Nevertheless, some countries have legalized all cases of
abortion with and without a fair reason-and we consider fair
reason all those cases of therapeutic abortion, medically
approved to save the mother's life.
    Statistics in such countries show an unexpectedly high index
of offence against the laws of nature. Yet it continues to be a
criminal attempt against the life of a defenceless creature. That
is why it should be considered one of the most hideous
aggressions against a human being ....
    Senseless advocates of criminal abortion come up with the
allegation that in the first few months there is no existence. Yet,
they fail to recognize that human life, in process of
development, is deserving of high respect. With the passing of
days, the fetus will be transformed into a man or woman who
deserves the opportunity of a bodily life, by divine decree.
    No one has the authority of cutting short the phenomenon of
life without incurring in painful debt from which he will not be
absolved without paying a heavy price ....
   No process of re-embodiment happens at random, nor is the
fertilization of sexual cells the work of chance. If this were the
case, it would be permissible for man to accept or reject the
situation.
    It is also claimed that the legalization of abortion is a healthy
measure, considering the great number of criminal practices that
endanger women's lives.
 
     A crime does not, in any way, justify its legalization to make
its illicit practice disappear.
     Life is divine property and cannot be lightly squandered.
Since people consent in bodily communion, it is expected
that they accept the responsibility of their act.
    Every action generates natural reactions, which gravitate
around their author.
    In considering further the problem of legal abortion, the laws
are indulgent whenever the fertilization occurs through rape ....
But even in such cases, to expel the fetus by means of abortion
does not, in any way, correct the damage that is already there
....
    Many times the Spirit that arrives under such painful
circumstances becomes a great blessing to the mother's agony
and oppressed heart.
    Self-denial with the purpose of saving another precious life
brings excellent ground for redemption to the victim of such
tragic destiny ....
T    he truth, however, is that the victim is expiating a debt and
advancing on the trail of abnegation and sacrifice to the
pinnacles of happiness.
    There are no incidents of injustice in the framework of Divine
Law, reaching some and excluding others ....
Abortion, therefore, even when accepted by human standards
and legalized, goes violently against divine laws. It continues to
be a crime for the person who practices it or submits to it.
    If legalized, it becomes accepted yet continues to be immoral.

    A Spirit whose return to Earth was blocked, will try again.
    A re-encounter will take place in the future between the
would-be-mother and the one whom she tried to avoid.
    The previous commitments between them, requiring
adjustment without delay, magnetically attracts them towards
each other. If there is lack of love, a process of mental illness
will take place, accompanied by other disorders of a complex
nature and difficult diagnosis.
   Thus you must favour life, no matter under what aspect it
manifests itself.
    Consider the liberating door of reincarnation. Advance to
higher levels of spiritual progress by offering the opportunity to
Spirits who seek your help, and trust in God. The Author of
Creation, Who watches over the birds of the air and the flowers
of the fields, will also watch over you, who are more valuable
than they. You are not forsaken or deprived of divine
assistance.
    There is no excuse whatsoever for a person who practices
criminal abortion, not withstanding the moral chaos that is
sweeping the Earth today.
    Every child is trusted to parents, who should love him and
prize this sacred opportunity to help him progress spiritually. In
due time, this being should be ready to return to his Celestial
Father.
    The criminal act of abortion should not become a stumbling
block in your spiritual progress. It should be avoided, even
when it results in difficulties and afflictions ....
    Every spiritual ascension demands a sacrificial task. But at
the summit's height there are promises of peace and beauty, as a
compensation for all your struggles. You will be honoured with
peace after liberating your conscience from debts and guilt.
    To kill, never!
 

[no kidding]

OK - here's a scenario for you. You are a single woman living in Russia under the old system. You and your long-term boyfriend are having sex regularly, using condoms - the pill is not available. One day the condom breaks and you find yourself pregnant. You have a regular job, which doesn't pay that well, but you're still living at home and contribute to the meagre family income. If you decide to have the child, then either you or your mother will have to give up work. There is also the added risk that the boyfriend, not wishing to be confronted with such problems, will disappear. Despite the fact that all the churches are closed and religion is officially banned, within the family the Christian faith still prevails and in the corner of your apartment is a small area which is, in effect, a shrine. There is no form of social security benefit for the child, so whatever household income there is will be diminished, not to mention the difficulties involved in buying all the requirements a baby brings with it. 

 

So there's the dilemma. Do you decide to have the baby and risk the social stigma - remember that you are an unmarried mother living in a block and everyone knows everyone - and the associated problems of bringing up a baby? Or do you go the doctor, ask them make an appointment at the abortion clinic with no questions asked and put it all down to experience?

 

Fast forward to 2020 and there is the pill, which is still difficult to obtain and unreliable. Foreign condoms are available, but expensive and the locally-made ones are no more reliable than they were before. Thus the risk of becoming inadvertently pregnant is a great as it always was. Worship at church is now allowed and the Christian Orthodox faith is widely embraced. The dilemma of the pregnant single female, however, has not changed. She has a reasonable job, as secure as a job can be, her income is important to the household and the risk that the boyfriend will do a runner is ever-present. There is a little social benefit available to help in bringing up the child, but certainly nowhere near enough to cover the costs, so you would have to rely on your parents for help. The equipment required for bringing up the baby is available, more and better than before, but most of it is imported and therefore expensive. Finally, what will be the parents' reaction to all this, even in the 21st century, given the strong resurgence of religion?

 

Let me close by telling you of the experience of a Russian lady I knew. She had exactly the experience outlined in the first paragraph, except that she was not living at home. It happened three times. On the third occasion, the doctor told her that because she'd already had two abortions, if she had a third, there was a strong chance that she would never be able to have children. She was 37 at the time and unmarried. She decided to keep the baby. Predictably, the boyfriend did a runner and her parents were reluctant to help her. (She lived in Moscow and her parents lived about 300 miles away). She of course had to give up her job.  She tried working from home, but this is not a common concept in Russia and she found it difficult. She managed to get by for many years until her child, a girl, became a teenager. Then the problems started. She was not like 'other girls' in school, her mother did not have money for her to go on trips or buy the latest clothes or electronic gadgets. To cut a long story short, the child has now been taken off her by social services. 

 

I have narrated one example, but I know of many others, not just in Russia, but in the fiercely Roman Catholic countries of South America, where of course the stigma is even greater. I am a man, so I would not begin to pretend to understand a woman's feeling on this matter. I am simply recounting the experiences, as told to me, of other women. All I will say is that in the west, there is no stigma to bringing up a baby alone and there are plenty of support groups and financial assistance is available. This no doubt colours the judgement of women who find themselves in this situation. 

[Given To Fly]

it's difficult to pontificate on this topic unless you're the one in that position but since the question was asked i would not oppose abortion in cases of rape, incest and if the mothers' life was in danger.

 

but you can't force someone to give birth. and even criminalising it is wrong.

 

it's all about education, support and free contraception.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Given To Fly

[EnigmaticWorld]

 

[Tamlinn]

Someone else's body is no one else's business. Anymore than someone should be able to tell you that you have to get a vaccination to save other people's lives.

[awake]

4 hours ago, Tamlinn said:

Someone else's body is no one else's business. Anymore than someone should be able to tell you that you have to get a vaccination to save other people's lives.

 

Agreed. I may not agree with it but i wouldn't try to stop anyone or make it easy for them. People have to live with their own stupidity

[Edgecrusher]

As with everything nothing is black and white and in the end it just depends on someone's circumstances.

 

My sister did IVF 9 times before she died at 51 of a melanoma and all she wanted was children.

 

She couldn't get her head around people having abortions but even with that, I think it has to be up to the person, and their reasons why...

[QuodHumana]

Surely, there are spiritual consequences to abortion ? But i don't know what they are. Not picking sides. Just my thoughts.

[Storm in the garden]

On another thread I asked the question...

Why was it that during lockdown medical examinations and procedures were cancelled, yet abortion clinics remained open?

I checked one UK abortion website and this particular group alone had "over 60 clinics open for business".

At the same time I know a couple of people who have potentially life -threatening illnesses that have basically been abandoned during lockdown.

So it appears that terminating life is a necessity yet saving life is not.

Is this not a classic case of the 'inversion' which David Icke talks about?

[Tinfoil Hat]

2 minutes ago, Storm in the garden said:

On another thread I asked the question...

Why was it that during lockdown medical examinations and procedures were cancelled, yet abortion clinics remained open?

I checked one UK abortion website and this particular group alone had "over 60 clinics open for business".

At the same time I know a couple of people who have potentially life -threatening illnesses that have basically been abandoned during lockdown.

So it appears that terminating life is a necessity yet saving life is not.

Is this not a classic case of the 'inversion' which David Icke talks about?

 

As usual I have no 'reactions' to give, but I think you've hit the nail on the head.

 

My own point of view is that I can see some circumstances when it should be an option, but for it to be a lifestyle choice, whereby some choose not to practice contraception because it's relatively easy to abort, I hate it.

 

I'm  not putting a link in, because I find it repugnant, but I recently watched a video from America, where a young trainee nurse was whistle blowing about it, and there was film footage backing up what she was saying. She left the profession because of what she 'd witnessed. Women almost at full term have been routinely allowed to have abortions, and the babies have come out very definitely alive. There's the lie being pushed by practitioners that the fetuses don't feel pain, yet that flies in the face of basic physiological facts which show that the nerve system is formed very early on in gestation. To my mind, this can only be allowed as part of the Satanic agenda. 

[Storm in the garden]

2 minutes ago, Tinfoil Hat said:

 

As usual I have no 'reactions' to give, but I think you've hit the nail on the head.

 

My own point of view is that I can see some circumstances when it should be an option, but for it to be a lifestyle choice, whereby some choose not to practice contraception because it's relatively easy to abort, I hate it.

 

I'm  not putting a link in, because I find it repugnant, but I recently watched a video from America, where a young trainee nurse was whistle blowing about it, and there was film footage backing up what she was saying. She left the profession because of what she 'd witnessed. Women almost at full term have been routinely allowed to have abortions, and the babies have come out very definitely alive. There's the lie being pushed by practitioners that the fetuses don't feel pain, yet that flies in the face of basic physiological facts which show that the nerve system is formed very early on in gestation. To my mind, this can only be allowed as part of the Satanic agenda. 

 

I was about to say similar.

A while back when the whole 5G debate was in the forefront of peoples minds, I did a search of the Green Party website. 

The Green Party are the front runners in pushing the whole Agenda 21/30 policy, so I was curious to see if they had a stance on 5G.

5G didn't get a mention on the entire site, despite the fact that thousands of trees were going to be cut down to facilitate the roll-out. You would think the 'Greens' would want to save the trees and the birds right? 

Also conspicuous by it's absence was any mention of things such as fracking or vaccines...hmm!

Climate change was everywhere on the site obviously, but what I hadn't expected to be featured was the amount of abortion coverage.

Eight different articles were about abortion, all of them lamenting the fact that there weren't enough abortion clinics available.

So yes, I would reckon that abortion is part of the inversion agenda.

(Incidentally, I subsequently emailed the Globalist Green Party asking them what their policy was regarding 5G.....I never got a reply!)

 

 

 

 

[rideforever]

Abortion is murder.

But only someone who has purity can follow such rules.

Our society is in chaos so murder is normal, these people understand nothing whatsoever and you cannot stop their insanity - they destroy themselves, each other, the planet, and their children.  How then shall you judge them for more insanity.

As for why a soul incarnates into a child that will be aborted ?
Who can say, but existence knows what it is doing.

Many souls have evil pasts, some need to suffer in order to grow, some humans have almost no soul, some souls can benefit with earnest effort even if their lives are very short.

 

[chocomel]

[rideforever]

Charging a man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500.

 

Yes of course it's murder, but what is the real question, because you live on a planet of violence insincerity insanity self-degradation and more murder.

And lying, plenty of lying and covering up and twisting and blindness.

So the real question, the best question is ... how the fk do I get out of this hell hole?

[Duewy]

Those who stand as "Pro Life" must show by doing and adopt and raise the ones or support the mothers for the 18 years.

Those who stand as "Pro Choice" must show by doing and provide care counselling and services before during and after for youth and mothers. 

 

If you don't walk it then don't talk it

[ItsTheTruthThough]

It’s up to the individual of who’s body it is and no one else in my opinion. Despite what people are led to believe, it’s extremely rare that it is performed for a reason other than something  not very valid. It’s a last resort and not an easy choice, I don’t think anyone who is in that position needs judgement. 

[Storm in the garden]

On 7/15/2020 at 1:39 AM, Duewy said:

Those who stand as "Pro Life" must show by doing and adopt and raise the ones or support the mothers for the 18 years.

Those who stand as "Pro Choice" must show by doing and provide care counselling and services before during and after for youth and mothers. 

 

If you don't walk it then don't talk it

 

We do, it's called paying taxes!

 

16 minutes ago, ItsTheTruthThough said:

It’s up to the individual of who’s body it is and no one else in my opinion.

 

Yo do realize it takes the participation of two to conceive, so does the potential father not have any say?

 

20 minutes ago, ItsTheTruthThough said:

Despite what people are led to believe, it’s extremely rare that it is performed for a reason other than something  not very valid. It’s a last resort and not an easy choice,

 

I'm presuming you meant to say "something very valid"?

So they learn at school (and hopefully at home) that if a male and female have intercourse there is the possibility of getting pregnant. It's ignored.

They also learn that if they don't use contraception there is a possibility of getting pregnant. It's ignored.

They learn about the 'morning after' pill. It's ignored.

They know that even if they end up a lone parent the stigma of that position has now gone.

They know that even if their partner deserts them and their parent(s) disown them, that the state will then step in and provide. 

 

So with all that in mind, and given the amount of abortion clinics there are, there must be an awful lot of women out there with "something very valid".

Then again, maybe you did mean " it’s extremely rare that it is performed for a reason other than something  not very valid."

 

[ItsTheTruthThough]

No, as it’s not the fathers body it’s nothing to do with him in forcing the woman against her will to be an incubator and potentially die (giving birth almost resulted in my death and is dangerous for women which has to count)

So with these reasons no, unfortunately for the man involved, not his body to force into a situation.

[Storm in the garden]

8 minutes ago, ItsTheTruthThough said:

No, as it’s not the fathers body it’s nothing to do with him in forcing the woman against her will to be an incubator and potentially die (giving birth almost resulted in my death and is dangerous for women which has to count)

So with these reasons no, unfortunately for the man involved, not his body to force into a situation.

 

If you were forced against your will that's called rape, so did you report it? I'm sure if you did you would be encouraged to take the morning after pill.

[ItsTheTruthThough]

I never said forced into sex, you asked if the father is not important in the decision about a child and I said no he cannot force her to be an incubator against her will should a pregnancy occur.  
 

a morning after pill is not always an option, sometimes failed contraception like the pill for example is not known about until way after a pregnancy has been established. I wouldn’t know if my pill had failed until I got a positive pregnancy test so a morning after pill is completely useless there! 
 

Also, no the state won’t provide for any more than 2 kids, and even the first two kids it doesn’t help cover all costs too well. It’s not black and white. If I was to become pregnant again I would have NO state help which would plunge us all into poverty and result in my other children suffering. Not to mention what it would mean for my mental health and also physical health as giving birth to one of my children almost killed me. I could die next time, always a risk. Also not many children in care grow up happy and loved with a good mental health. None of the ones I know have done, they are severely depressed and not doing good as a result so they tell me. Let’s not forget to mention that some children in care easily end up in pedophile rings and trafficked, not a nice life to say the least. As I said it is not black and white. Numerous reasons for an abortion that not all of which have a get out clause. Sometimes abortion even saves a child being born into a situation where it would be neglected, abused and raped - think abusive families -  horrible I know but also something to consider amongst it all. It’s the choice of who’s body it is. If we lose the right to our own body then our body belongs to someone else and I don’t think I even need to explain what can go wrong from that point onwards.

[Storm in the garden]

You appear to be very unlucky. If I'm interpreting this correctly....

You had sex with somebody, your contraception failed, you could die if you gave birth again, you already have two kids, your mental health might be affected...

How am I doing?

Where are the father(s) of the two kids you already have? Don't they pay child maintenance?

Considering that you already have two kids who's father(s) don't appear to be in the picture, you're unlucky using contraception,  you could die giving birth, your mental health could suffer.....have you ever considered abstaining from sex for a time maybe? Or making better lifestyle choices? Or choosing a better partner?

Have you ever seen the video of a fetus trying to hide and avoid being sucked up by a vacuum?

The thing is it's not your body, because due to the life choices you made it's your body+.....and the "plus" has a heartbeat and a brain and fingers and toes.

At the end of the day you have to take responsibility for your own actions. What you're suggesting is shifting the consequences of your actions onto the defenseless who are depending on you to survive. 

You have to live with these life decisions and perhaps some day you might look in the mirror and realize that all the excuses such as bad partners and faulty contraception and peadophile rings and child slavery are all just that....excuses.

You can dress it up any way you like and use catchphrases like "my body, my choice" but in my opinion it's simply taking the life of an unborn child. 

 

[Guest Gone Fishing...]

1 hour ago, Storm in the garden said:

You appear to be very unlucky. If I'm interpreting this correctly....

You had sex with somebody, your contraception failed, you could die if you gave birth again, you already have two kids, your mental health might be affected...

How am I doing?

Where are the father(s) of the two kids you already have? Don't they pay child maintenance?

Considering that you already have two kids who's father(s) don't appear to be in the picture, you're unlucky using contraception,  you could die giving birth, your mental health could suffer.....have you ever considered abstaining from sex for a time maybe? Or making better lifestyle choices? Or choosing a better partner?

Have you ever seen the video of a fetus trying to hide and avoid being sucked up by a vacuum?

The thing is it's not your body, because due to the life choices you made it's your body+.....and the "plus" has a heartbeat and a brain and fingers and toes.

At the end of the day you have to take responsibility for your own actions. What you're suggesting is shifting the consequences of your actions onto the defenseless who are depending on you to survive. 

You have to live with these life decisions and perhaps some day you might look in the mirror and realize that all the excuses such as bad partners and faulty contraception and peadophile rings and child slavery are all just that....excuses.

You can dress it up any way you like and use catchphrases like "my body, my choice" but in my opinion it's simply taking the life of an unborn child. 

 

You don't have the right to make such assumptions and ask such pointed invasive questions.
You also don't have the right to try to assign blame and guilt either..
Lucky you, if you never found yourself in such a difficult position with such a serious decision to make.
.
.
l'm a male.
l don't agree with abortion.
l was with a partner who became unintentionally pregnant.
She decided that she didn't want it. (for many reasons which are none of anyone's business)

l did want her to have it.
She had an abortion.
l respected her decision because it's her body. l explained my position, but l had no right to try to persuade her any further.
No government, no religion or anyone has any right to tell a woman what to do with something in HER body, which is attached and PART of her body.
l agree on a humane and practical timescale.
lt must be done as quickly as possible.
3 months absolute maximum in my opinion.
Any later and the baby that eventually gets born should then be safely adopted.
.

[ItsTheTruthThough]

1 hour ago, Storm in the garden said:

You appear to be very unlucky. If I'm interpreting this correctly....

You had sex with somebody, your contraception failed, you could die if you gave birth again, you already have two kids, your mental health might be affected...

How am I doing?

Where are the father(s) of the two kids you already have? Don't they pay child maintenance?

Considering that you already have two kids who's father(s) don't appear to be in the picture, you're unlucky using contraception,  you could die giving birth, your mental health could suffer.....have you ever considered abstaining from sex for a time maybe? Or making better lifestyle choices? Or choosing a better partner?

Have you ever seen the video of a fetus trying to hide and avoid being sucked up by a vacuum?

The thing is it's not your body, because due to the life choices you made it's your body+.....and the "plus" has a heartbeat and a brain and fingers and toes.

At the end of the day you have to take responsibility for your own actions. What you're suggesting is shifting the consequences of your actions onto the defenseless who are depending on you to survive. 

You have to live with these life decisions and perhaps some day you might look in the mirror and realize that all the excuses such as bad partners and faulty contraception and peadophile rings and child slavery are all just that....excuses.

You can dress it up any way you like and use catchphrases like "my body, my choice" but in my opinion it's simply taking the life of an unborn child. 

 

Can you please point me to the part where I said any of these scenarios applied to me that were given as some of many examples that were not black and white as to why someone may choose an abortion? 
 

Not that it is any of your business at all, but I have 3 planned children with the same father whom I have been in a relationship with for 15 years, and I have never had an abortion. The only thing at all that I did say happened to me was that I almost died giving birth to one of my children, and that was as another example that childbirth is potentially deadly to women and yet another very important reason why she should never be forced into being an incubator against her will.

 

You seem to be very judgemental as well as not even reading properly what is said to you. Call them excuses all you want but it is very valid reasons for women, and reasons that are nothing to do with you as it’s not your life that is being effected.

[Guest Gone Fishing...]

On 5/23/2020 at 11:04 AM, QuodHumana said:

thinking from a spiritual perspective, i would like to here more opinions

lf we're spiritual beings we come here over and over and maybe to other places over and over.
The spirit never dies...
All bodies always die, sooner or later.
lf we're here for ever and repeat different experiences over and over, then every single permutation is valid and valuable.
In eternities scale of things, what's the difference between living for 300 years, 30 years, 3 years, 3 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 3 hours ? (other than the emotional effects on others)
And when exactly does the spirit / soul enter the given / chosen body ?
lf you believe in Spirit then the possibilities are infinite..