Free electricity. How power companies operate

[jack121]

Here is a very educational must-watch video about electric companies and how they supply power to your house. Please watch. Any thoughts ?

 

 

[Occulus5]

I sometimes get text messages saying that I agreed as part of a contract to have a smart meter installed (this is Eon), but I never agreed to having a smart meter. My electricity bill is about £93 a month, yet I am hardly ever in the house as I'm always out and I don't use the TV, use the microwave occasionally, plug my laptop in and use the kettle about 3 times, plus every few weeks I cut the grass, that's it, I'm the only one in the house. They are ripping me off. This is all done, I think, to get you to have a smart meter installed. Eon doesn't supply the top up meters only smart meters. 

[1velocity7]

i bought a multi fuel stove and reduced my gas usage by 75%

the only way i can see to getting my electric bills down are solar panels

my electric bill is always 80/100 month

[jack121]

Ia it true what is being said in the video, that the electricity is already paid for, your energy supplier is just a middleman between you and the national grid and does not own the pipes or cables therefore you can cut out the middleman. The uploader of the vdeo has a good reputation

[Occulus5]

1 hour ago, jack121 said:

Ia it true what is being said in the video, that the electricity is already paid for, your energy supplier is just a middleman between you and the national grid and does not own the pipes or cables therefore you can cut out the middleman. The uploader of the vdeo has a good reputation

Yeah but if you cut them out and still use their energy they will come after you and you will end up with a fine for nothing paying it. They won't listen to what you have to say because all they want is your money. 

[Occulus5]

1 hour ago, 1velocity7 said:

i bought a multi fuel stove and reduced my gas usage by 75%

the only way i can see to getting my electric bills down are solar panels

my electric bill is always 80/100 month

What do multi stoves do?. The only other way beside solar panels is doing what Richard D Hall did and turning his home off grid. 

[k_j_evans]

5 hours ago, jack121 said:

Ia it true what is being said in the video, that the electricity is already paid for, your energy supplier is just a middleman between you and the national grid and does not own the pipes or cables therefore you can cut out the middleman. The uploader of the vdeo has a good reputation

I don't think it's totally accurate. As well as National Grid, both Scottish Power and SSE control/support/whatever some infrastructure (I sort of work for National Grid some of the time). Scottish Power have their own set of safelty regulations and exams which are not the same as National Grid exams (which I am an invigilator for). If you get a meter removed aofficially, It's not National Grid exactly that do it (or whoever you pay), it's National POWER Grid, who are a slightly different set of people (in a secure compound next door to the National Grid one where I worked). The "supplier" is definitely just a broker, that's correct. If you change supplier, you basically just change call centre and bank account (or maybe not, a lot of them probably share). I slightly suspicious that it's about as useful as the Freeman on the Land stuff, which doesn't do you any good as far as I can see once you get in front of magistrates or a judge. Sadly, I can't look at the stuff directly as I can't do Telegram as you can't sign up without a phone (or a stunning amount of hoop jumping)

[k_j_evans]

I think you'd need to get the meter removed "officially". I know that when I was renovating a property and wasn't going to use the gas for the forseeable future I asked for it to cut off (which you used to be able to do and was recommended if property was going to be empty). I was told that it was no longer possible and that all that could be done was to remove the meter (it was a prepayment meter), so that was done (by National Power Grid). Now what would have happened if I'd then installed my own meter, I don't know. When the time came to sell the property, they came and put a new meter in, but they gave the initial reading to my "supplier".

Edited August 21 by k_j_evans

[pi3141]

3 hours ago, k_j_evans said:

I don't think it's totally accurate. As well as National Grid, both Scottish Power and SSE control/support/whatever some infrastructure (I sort of work for National Grid some of the time). Scottish Power have their own set of safelty regulations and exams which are not the same as National Grid exams (which I am an invigilator for). If you get a meter removed aofficially, It's not National Grid exactly that do it (or whoever you pay), it's National POWER Grid, who are a slightly different set of people (in a secure compound next door to the National Grid one where I worked). The "supplier" is definitely just a broker, that's correct. If you change supplier, you basically just change call centre and bank account (or maybe not, a lot of them probably share). I slightly suspicious that it's about as useful as the Freeman on the Land stuff, which doesn't do you any good as far as I can see once you get in front of magistrates or a judge. Sadly, I can't look at the stuff directly as I can't do Telegram as you can't sign up without a phone (or a stunning amount of hoop jumping)

 

Do you go in for any of the Free Energy stuff?

 

It fascinates me.

 

Quick examples, they said the everlasting light bulb was a myth, but we designed one in a university module. 

 

We did similar to NASA, they used a thyristor in power line to reduce the power, which introduced cooling effect, which extended light bulbs and prevented blowing while on Apollo missions.

 

We used a diode, half wave rectification before input to bulb, reduces power and extends life (only half rated light output)

 

We found other examples during the module.

 

I understand we still can't explain incandescent light bulbs - how does glowing convert an electron into a photon - 

 

The glowing excites the electron to a higher state and when it drops back, it releases a photon.

 

Or

 

The input electron collides with an orbiting electron of a tungsten filament nuclei, pushing electron off course and by way of the strong force, pressure is exerted on the nuclei and it emits a photon.

 

I can expand this question to solar panels.

 

As a reaction to a photon hitting the panel, it gives up an electron.

 

If we say the electron comes from the silicon doped with extra electron, then solar panels will stop working when the silicon has given up all its spare electrons.

 

But that doesn't happen, nor does it convert the photon to an electron.

 

So where do the electrons come from?

 

David Bohm, physicist, says whenever you see a photon appear or disappear, your seeing it emerge from, or back into the vacuum. And the vacuum has an infinite supply of photons.

 

I wonder if dipoles open up a doorway to the vacuum so photons or electrons can emerge into our space. 

 

Then there's Bedini with negative pulse charging. 

 

I was on an DIY EV site, I asked about negative pulse charging lead acid batteries. 

 

I was shouted down as pseudo science. An engineer who did a NASA study on negative pulse charging emailed me through the site. It works, I still have his PDF somewhere. 

 

At a previous job my projects engineer was ex BBC R&D, I spoke with him about it, when he was in R&D back in the 70's, they was designing the portable News gathering equipment, the battery guy used negative pulse charging because he said you get more power in and batteries last longer.

 

Of course they all pointed to the GM study of it finding it to be pointless, he told them all GM was wrong. So they used it.

 

Now it's fairly well known, but still not used much. Don't know if Tesla use it. 

 

It just means adding frequent, short duration negative pulses to the charge cycle. It disperses hydrogen gas build up and cools the battery, improving performance and life span. 

 

If we connected all the lightning strips on the sides of skyscrapers together, what sort of voltage would we generate. Apparently there is a 200V potential between the bottom and top of the pyramid. 

 

Theres about 7 Mega watts of atmospheric energy, theres loads more in the Schuman resonance we could tap.

 

I could go on. And on. But we have no forum for it. 

 

 

 

Edited August 21 by pi3141

[Grumpy Owl]

8 hours ago, Occulus5 said:

I sometimes get text messages saying that I agreed as part of a contract to have a smart meter installed (this is Eon), but I never agreed to having a smart meter. My electricity bill is about £93 a month, yet I am hardly ever in the house as I'm always out and I don't use the TV, use the microwave occasionally, plug my laptop in and use the kettle about 3 times, plus every few weeks I cut the grass, that's it, I'm the only one in the house. They are ripping me off. This is all done, I think, to get you to have a smart meter installed. Eon doesn't supply the top up meters only smart meters. 

 

Last year when I agreed a new tariff with EDF, it did state as one of the terms "smart meter required", so I did actually 'agree' to have one installed. However I was hoping that an installation would fail same as last time - when nPower attempted a few years ago, the engineer couldn't do the work as they said there was 'no room' in the meter cupboard. Seems the guy who came last year was a bit more determined, and he managed to squeeze it in!

 

Regardless of your feelings about smart meters, I do actually find mine quite useful, as it allows me detailed analysis of my energy usage.

 

One thing that definitely stands out to me is that no matter how much you try to reduce your energy usage, you still have to pay the daily standing charges. And in the last few months, I notice that the standing charges cost more than the actual gas and electricity I've used! 

 

Here's a screenshot from my EDF account energy hub page, it shows my daily costs for both gas and electricity, and I have highlighted yesterday's usage.

 

For context, I live by myself in a one bed flat, and my direct debit is currently £75 a month. During the winter months when it is colder and I have the central heating on, the daily charge does go up to just over £3 a day. 

 

But you can see I am clearly paying more each day in standing charges, than on the gas and electricity that I do use. This is where people are being ripped off.

 

My current tariff with EDF is due for renewal as it ends on 1st October, and I've been looking at the options available, trying to work out whether its worth fixing my prices for one or two years. What's good to see is that the daily standing charges will come down, although the basic unit prices will increase slightly. 

 

I'm out of the house most of the week at work, so my energy usage is relatively low. For me, and other like myself, I wonder if it is better to trade off slightly higher unit prices for lower standing charges, which could mean that my monthly bill doesn't actually rise by that much. 

 

 

As for the video in the opening post, I don't have time to watch it, so if someone could summarise it then it would be helpful. 

 

I've believed for sometime that we're all being ripped off, because gas and electricity producers provide energy to the 'wholesale market', which suppliers then buy and resell to end consumers, thanks to privatisation. If a way could be found to 'cut out the middleman', then energy could be supplied directly to consumers at 'wholesale prices', and thus energy bills could be slashed overnight. 

 

[k_j_evans]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Owl said:

 

I've believed for sometime that we're all being ripped off, because gas and electricity producers provide energy to the 'wholesale market', which suppliers then buy and resell to end consumers, thanks to privatisation. If a way could be found to 'cut out the middleman', then energy could be supplied directly to consumers at 'wholesale prices', and thus energy bills could be slashed overnight. 

 

Well, I still remember when what is now National Grid,  EDF (I think they took over the nuclear power stations - I worked for EDF on and off when it was called British Energy), EON (was Powergen at first) and National Power (don't know who they are now) was the CEGB and all the area electric companies were just local "front ends" with a shop, and both gas and electric were basically national assets. No advertising, no different tariffs - except possibly for some weird off peak things for storage heaters. No wasting time shopping around and all much cheaper. Same with telephones (which was the only bit of the post office that made any money). Privatisation of utilities was a big mistake for us.

[jack121]

22 hours ago, 1velocity7 said:

i bought a multi fuel stove and reduced my gas usage by 75%

the only way i can see to getting my electric bills down are solar panels

my electric bill is always 80/100 month

That's a great idea, throw all your old food and bits of cardboard packaging into a fire.

I did this a long time ago by using the fireplace

[jack121]

22 hours ago, Occulus5 said:

I sometimes get text messages saying that I agreed as part of a contract to have a smart meter installed (this is Eon), but I never agreed to having a smart meter. My electricity bill is about £93 a month, yet I am hardly ever in the house as I'm always out and I don't use the TV, use the microwave occasionally, plug my laptop in and use the kettle about 3 times, plus every few weeks I cut the grass, that's it, I'm the only one in the house. They are ripping me off. This is all done, I think, to get you to have a smart meter installed. Eon doesn't supply the top up meters only smart meters. 

I'm looking into these at the moment, clothing with heating built in, runs off any usb port or you can use rechargable batteries

Heating yourself rather than heating the entire house must work out cheaper

https://www.temu.com/uk/mens-winter-heating-pants-with-12--zones-usb-battery-powered-fleece-lined-thickened--for-outdoor-camping-hiking-machine-washable-regular--pack-not-included-cold-weather-gear-functional-clothing-snap-button-closure-g-601101228460533.html?top_gallery_url=https%3A%2F%2Fimg.kwcdn.com%2Fproduct%2Ffancy%2F0fc3792b-e4fd-4463-af3d-37fdf163ccfb.jpg&spec_id=3002&spec_gallery_id=79579&spec_ids=3002&share_token=GnIdnBsJbN68qErNG7teiypvrWxfGy_gCds90xZNaSf2OFdGeopDqUjVHuVraW9Xg_03_64gIdFl8zKREHa482w1Kl9qBM4AvZX93wcY69AXAkRLPhS8Yj0AlG7guXeA&_x_vst_scene=adg&_x_ads_sub_channel=shopping&_x_ns_prz_type=-1&_x_ns_sku_id=17598820149454&_x_ns_gid=601101228460533&_x_ads_channel=google&_x_gmc_account=5584549166&_x_login_type=Google&_x_ns_gg_lnk_type=adr&_x_ads_account=8308307013&_x_ads_set=22841917830&_x_ads_id=182855743829&_x_ads_creative_id=766770768408&_x_ns_source=g&_x_ns_gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1dnCv4aejwMVxIBQBh37KAHjEAQYAyABEgKG-PD_BwE&_x_ns_placement=&_x_ns_match_type=&_x_ns_ad_position=&_x_ns_product_id=5584549166-17598820149454&_x_ns_target=&_x_ns_devicemodel=&_x_ns_wbraid=Cj4KCAjwh5vFBhBkEi4AA2PzMIjCEd9HJTt3-u0moprta88dOOBqXYGL5DRhJed1dn5OkxThbgvtIYFcGgIPAA&_x_ns_gbraid=0AAAAAo4mICGvk1v8hsdu8XF11dIqtJEny&_x_ns_targetid=pla-2432796920563&refer_page_name=kuiper&refer_page_id=13554_1755853101457_3bdo70nmqo&refer_page_sn=13554&_x_sessn_id=jcbb3vuuol

[Occulus5]

Speaking of energy and solar panels, but I was watching The Naked Gun 2 and a half the other day and I noticed there's a scene where the villain, Quintin Hapsburg (interesting choice of name, isn't there an Hapsburg family?). I know this is just a comedy but I do wonder if this was some kind of predictive programming. This was 1991 decades before most people had even heard of solar panels used to generate electricity, and the electric car as mentioned as well, albeit with solar panels:

 

Edited August 22 by Occulus5

[jack121]

2 hours ago, Occulus5 said:

Speaking of energy and solar panels, but I was watching The Naked Gun 2 and a half the other day and I noticed there's a scene where the villain, Quintin Hapsburg (interesting choice of name, isn't there an Hapsburg family?). I know this is just a comedy but I do wonder if this was some kind of predictive programming. This was 1991 decades before most people had even heard of solar panels used to generate electricity, and the electric car as mentioned as well, albeit with solar panels:

 

 

There is a very interesting video on twitter, which has been liked by elon musk, which says that solar panels placed in the hottest places in africa could generate 40x the amount of electricity required to power the entire planet

There are some naysayers who state: What about nightime ?

Some say that could put the entire planet at the mercy of the africans, if implemented

But which ever way it is an intresting idea. Solar panels placed along the equator would prioduce free power for everyone, but greta and her buddies in the green movement don't seem to be intrested

[Grumpy Owl]

8 hours ago, jack121 said:

I'm looking into these at the moment, clothing with heating built in, runs off any usb port or you can use rechargable batteries

Heating yourself rather than heating the entire house must work out cheaper

 

Possibly, but you still need to use electricity to charge the battery packs, which aren't going to last that long!

 

We use to offer something like that at work, heated workwear, designed for people working outside in cold conditions, but it was mainly jackets and hoodies, makes no sense to keep your legs warm, when it is your core body that needs to be kept warm. They never really took off though, mainly as they were quite expensive, but they did include battery packs, unlike that product from Temu you linked to. Of course you'd have no trouble keeping warm if a dodgy Chinese power bank catches fire! 

[Mitochondrial Eve]

22 hours ago, Grumpy Owl said:

 

Last year when I agreed a new tariff with EDF, it did state as one of the terms "smart meter required", so I did actually 'agree' to have one installed. However I was hoping that an installation would fail same as last time - when nPower attempted a few years ago, the engineer couldn't do the work as they said there was 'no room' in the meter cupboard. Seems the guy who came last year was a bit more determined, and he managed to squeeze it in!

 

Regardless of your feelings about smart meters, I do actually find mine quite useful, as it allows me detailed analysis of my energy usage.

 

One thing that definitely stands out to me is that no matter how much you try to reduce your energy usage, you still have to pay the daily standing charges. And in the last few months, I notice that the standing charges cost more than the actual gas and electricity I've used! 

 

Here's a screenshot from my EDF account energy hub page, it shows my daily costs for both gas and electricity, and I have highlighted yesterday's usage.

 

For context, I live by myself in a one bed flat, and my direct debit is currently £75 a month. During the winter months when it is colder and I have the central heating on, the daily charge does go up to just over £3 a day. 

 

But you can see I am clearly paying more each day in standing charges, than on the gas and electricity that I do use. This is where people are being ripped off.

 

My current tariff with EDF is due for renewal as it ends on 1st October, and I've been looking at the options available, trying to work out whether its worth fixing my prices for one or two years. What's good to see is that the daily standing charges will come down, although the basic unit prices will increase slightly. 

 

I'm out of the house most of the week at work, so my energy usage is relatively low. For me, and other like myself, I wonder if it is better to trade off slightly higher unit prices for lower standing charges, which could mean that my monthly bill doesn't actually rise by that much. 

 

Regarding standing charges, your electricity rate of £0.62 per day does seem high. I have no gas supply and only electricity (albeit economy 7 dual tariff) to factor into my decision but, like you, I am a low user of energy being a single occupant in a small two bed house and working from an office four days a week. I opted for a lower standing charge which is £0.43 per day making it £13.34 on my last monthly bill. My usage was similar to yours at only £19.21 for the month. The total bill, including 5% VAT, was £34.18.

 

Obviously it is the time of year where usage will be particularly low. I don't need to use the immersion heater much at present as I have a solar hot water system. Aside from some recent pump issues (now fixed) where I had to revert to the immersion for a week or so, it has been working well and the hot summer has helped too. When I use it, the immersion is programmed to come on during off-peak hours.

 

During winter, I use an oil filled radiator, blankets and hot water bottles and only resort to my storage heaters - which power up at night when it is supposedly cheaper - when it is bitterly cold. In spite of economy 7, it seriously pushes my bill up whenever I use them. A typical monthly winter bill is probably £80 to £90 when not too cold but the storage heaters push it up to around £120. My other appliances are all new and supposedly economical and the house is well insulated so the storage heaters are the main drain.

 

Overall, I think I have been better off from the lower standing charge but probably only because I watch my usage.

Edited August 22 by Mitochondrial Eve

[Grumpy Owl]

20 hours ago, k_j_evans said:

Well, I still remember when what is now National Grid,  EDF (I think they took over the nuclear power stations - I worked for EDF on and off when it was called British Energy), EON (was Powergen at first) and National Power (don't know who they are now) was the CEGB and all the area electric companies were just local "front ends" with a shop, and both gas and electric were basically national assets. No advertising, no different tariffs - except possibly for some weird off peak things for storage heaters. No wasting time shopping around and all much cheaper. Same with telephones (which was the only bit of the post office that made any money). Privatisation of utilities was a big mistake for us.

 

Before privatisation, all gas came from British Gas which was government-owned. For electricity, all regions had their own 'electricity board', but these were just state-owned distribution operations, for example ours here was the MEB (Midlands Electricity Board). 

 

You paid your gas bill to British Gas, and your electricity bill to the MEB. All straight-forward, and everyone paid the same tariff rates I believe, so yes, none of this confusion about finding the best rates. It worked for everyone because the state owned suppliers could supply energy direct to households at what are now considered 'wholesale prices'. 

 

While I'm not anti-privatisation, I do feel that privatising 'essential utilities' was a big mistake - it created a 'competitive market' but meant that anyone could set up an energy supply company and they would just buy at wholesale prices, add on a profit margin and then sell it on to end-consumers. 

 

(What does amuse me is those energy suppliers who charge people over the odds but make load boasts about 'supplying 100% clean green renewable energy', even though every household in the UK is connected to the same 'national grid', and you can't pick and choose what 'type' of gas or electricity enters your household!)

 

And yes, exactly the same thing happened with the telephone network, in particular for broadband internet. With the exception of Virgin Media and other cable networks, you're still connected to BT's wholesale network. You might be contracted with Sky, Plusnet, EE, Carphone Warehouse etc, or even BT themselves, but your broadband still comes through the same phone socket. 

[Grumpy Owl]

1 hour ago, Mitochondrial Eve said:

 

Regarding standing charges, your electricity rate of £0.62 per day does seem high. I have no gas supply and only electricity (albeit economy 7 dual tariff) to factor into my decision but, like you, I am a low user of energy being a single occupant in a small two bed house and working from an office four days a week. I opted for a lower standing charge which is £0.43 per day making it £13.34 on my last monthly bill. My usage was similar to yours at only £19.21 for the month. The total bill, including 5% VAT, was £34.18.

 

Obviously it is the time of year where usage will be particularly low. I don't need to use the immersion heater much at present as I have a solar hot water system. Aside from some recent pump issues (now fixed) where I had to revert to the immersion for a week or so, it has been working well and the hot summer has helped too. When I use it, the immersion is programmed to come on during off-peak hours.

 

During winter, I use an oil filled radiator, blankets and hot water bottles and only resort to my storage heaters - which power up at night when it is supposedly cheaper - when it is bitterly cold. In spite of economy 7, it seriously pushes my bill up whenever I use them. A typical monthly winter bill is probably £80 to £90 when not too cold but the storage heaters push it up to around £120. My other appliances are all new and supposedly economical and the house is well insulated so the storage heaters are the main drain.

 

Overall, I think I have been better off from the lower standing charge but probably only because I watch my usage.

 

I get and understand where you're coming from, the previous property I lived in had no gas supply so I had an Economy7 meter, along with storage heaters, one in the bedroom and the other in the living room. That was about ten years ago now, and while it was quite a novel thing for me at the time, one thing I did notice when I eventually moved into this current property was how much my energy bills came down, just by virtue of having gas central heating. 

 

I've since stayed in holiday rentals in Wales, where they have the same problem with lack of mains gas supply so I've at least been comfortable with knowing how to use and set storage heaters effectively! 

 

I do recall reading something a while back where there was a plan to phase out Economy7, and I did wonder how this could possibly be achieved. And it seems the 'solution' has been to introduce so-called 'EV tariffs', where consumers are offered cheaper overnight rates so they can charge up their electric vehicles more cost-effectively.

 

It sounds like the 'same thing' as Economy7, but I think it requires consumers to have a smart meter, rather than the traditional method of sending a radio signal through the network to switch Economy7 meters between 'day' and 'night' modes. 

[jack121]

3 hours ago, Grumpy Owl said:

 

Possibly, but you still need to use electricity to charge the battery packs, which aren't going to last that long!

 

We use to offer something like that at work, heated workwear, designed for people working outside in cold conditions, but it was mainly jackets and hoodies, makes no sense to keep your legs warm, when it is your core body that needs to be kept warm. They never really took off though, mainly as they were quite expensive, but they did include battery packs, unlike that product from Temu you linked to. Of course you'd have no trouble keeping warm if a dodgy Chinese power bank catches fire! 

 

I'm reading various forum posts put up by people who have purchased the heated clothing and the technology has improved, most people are delighted with the clothing.

It takes a small amount of power to heat up the clothing compared with the huge amount of power required to heat up an entire house

The battery lasts 8 hours if you are on the move, or you can plug into a usb port if you are at home

[jack121]

14 hours ago, Mitochondrial Eve said:

 

Regarding standing charges, your electricity rate of £0.62 per day does seem high. I have no gas supply and only electricity (albeit economy 7 dual tariff) to factor into my decision but, like you, I am a low user of energy being a single occupant in a small two bed house and working from an office four days a week. I opted for a lower standing charge which is £0.43 per day making it £13.34 on my last monthly bill. My usage was similar to yours at only £19.21 for the month. The total bill, including 5% VAT, was £34.18.

 

Obviously it is the time of year where usage will be particularly low. I don't need to use the immersion heater much at present as I have a solar hot water system. Aside from some recent pump issues (now fixed) where I had to revert to the immersion for a week or so, it has been working well and the hot summer has helped too. When I use it, the immersion is programmed to come on during off-peak hours.

 

During winter, I use an oil filled radiator, blankets and hot water bottles and only resort to my storage heaters - which power up at night when it is supposedly cheaper - when it is bitterly cold. In spite of economy 7, it seriously pushes my bill up whenever I use them. A typical monthly winter bill is probably £80 to £90 when not too cold but the storage heaters push it up to around £120. My other appliances are all new and supposedly economical and the house is well insulated so the storage heaters are the main drain.

 

Overall, I think I have been better off from the lower standing charge but probably only because I watch my usage.

 

I do the same, i have electricity only, then i only have to pay one standing charge