The why question

[Mr H]

Since man could thinketh the question, why are we here? What is the purpose of life? has been asked.

 

Why Implies cause and effect. Essentially a time line of events.

 

There's good reason to suggest that time and space is an illusion. If we dig into our experience, we don't actually experience time or space. It's always here and always now. And a suggestion could be that we experience time and space due to the limitations of a finite mind. I.e.if you wear yellow tinted glasses and view snow it will appear yellow. If you put on a human mind, similarly you will see time & space.

 

So imagine an intelligence or creator that does not experience time and space. Therefore no cause and effect. No sequencing. Just chaos and issness. Does the why question still arise?

 

In essense. The why question could be a faux question to begin with and should not be asked if we are honest in our investigation of truth.

 

On a practical level so you have something to do whilst being here, you can invent or create a purpose, but the suggestion here is that there is none in absolute reality.

[lobster]

1 hour ago, Mr H said:

Since man could thinketh the question, why are we here? What is the purpose of life? has been asked.

 

Why Implies cause and effect. Essentially a time line of events.

 

There's good reason to suggest that time and space is an illusion. If we dig into our experience, we don't actually experience time or space. It's always here and always now. And a suggestion could be that we experience time and space due to the limitations of a finite mind. I.e.if you wear yellow tinted glasses and view snow it will appear yellow. If you put on a human mind, similarly you will see time & space.

 

So imagine an intelligence or creator that does not experience time and space. Therefore no cause and effect. No sequencing. Just chaos and issness. Does the why question still arise?

 

In essense. The why question could be a faux question to begin with and should not be asked if we are honest in our investigation of truth.

 

On a practical level so you have something to do whilst being here, you can invent or create a purpose, but the suggestion here is that there is none in absolute reality.

Would we need to experience time in order to grow, mature wither and die, if time doesnt exist with out our mind then birth , adulthood and death also dont exist

[Mr H]

4 hours ago, lobster said:

Would we need to experience time in order to grow, mature wither and die, if time doesnt exist with out our mind then birth , adulthood and death also dont exist

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning

 

But ultimately, yes there is no birth or death.

[lobster]

4 minutes ago, Mr H said:

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning

 

But ultimately, yes there is no birth or death.

What about old age is that non existent as well ?

[Mr H]

6 minutes ago, lobster said:

What about old age is that non existent as well ?

Everything we experience through mind is illusiory. 

 

From the finite mind perspective it seems very real.

[lobster]

So there is no begining middle or end to our lives, so where was I before I wasnt born, how did I suddenly start to exist or is not existing also an illusion 

[Mr H]

7 minutes ago, lobster said:

So there is no begining middle or end to our lives, so where was I before I wasnt born, how did I suddenly start to exist or is not existing also an illusion 

Existence comes from the latin ex sistere, to stand out from. From what? From our true selves. All existence is illusiory.

 

There is no time and space ultimately,  so you weren't anywhere. Only In the dimensionless place our finite minds cannot comprehend. Which in ultimate reality we all reside now, always have and always will. 

[lobster]

Sorry not clear, are you saying not existing is also an illusion. 

 

If both existing and not existing are illusions , how do you tell the difference? 

[Mr H]

10 minutes ago, lobster said:

Sorry not clear, are you saying not existing is also an illusion. 

 

If both existing and not existing are illusions , how do you tell the difference? 

No. I was suggesting existence is illusiory by nature.

[lobster]

29 minutes ago, Mr H said:

No. I was suggesting existence is illusiory by nature.

Yes but I asked you if not existing was also an illusion,  like before you are born,you seemed to suggest it was an illusion 

[Mr H]

3 minutes ago, lobster said:

Yes but I asked you if not existing was also an illusion,  like before you are born,you seemed to suggest it was an illusion 

I mentioned you were never born. So there is no before you were born. I would define this  as non - existent experience rather than illusiory, in this description.

[lobster]

2 minutes ago, Mr H said:

I mentioned you were never born. So there is no before you were born. I would define this  as non - existent experience rather than illusiory, in this description.

Now your confusing me is the non existent experience an illusion or not ? If it's real then clearly you dont exist 

Edited December 28, 2024 by lobster

[Mr H]

6 hours ago, lobster said:

Now your confusing me is the non existent experience an illusion or not ? If it's real then clearly you dont exist 

I'm just being careful with definitions.

 

Your definition of non existence from above "if not existing was also an illusion, like before you are born"

 

Your definition is based on a false assumption. There is no " before you were born " to comment if it's an illusion or not. This implies time and sequencing. In ultimate reality there's no sequencing of events. It is a chaotic, "everythingness" here and now. You only experience time, a sequence of events when you put the human head on. 

 

Edit: within the illusion itself there is more than just earth experiences. And you have things like souls, karma etc. but from ultimate perspective, that is all illusiory too. So from an illusiory perspective, who were you before you were born?, we could say, a different past life, if you will.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Mr H

[Mr H]

If you wish to experience reality, no time and space, infinite potentialities, break free from the illusion of karma i.e. your true self - you can meditate. That's the key...

[lobster]

4 hours ago, Mr H said:

I'm just being careful with definitions.

 

Your definition of non existence from above "if not existing was also an illusion, like before you are born"

 

Your definition is based on a false assumption. There is no " before you were born " to comment if it's an illusion or not. This implies time and sequencing. In ultimate reality there's no sequencing of events. It is a chaotic, "everythingness" here and now. You only experience time, a sequence of events when you put the human head on. 

 

Edit: within the illusion itself there is more than just earth experiences. And you have things like souls, karma etc. but from ultimate perspective, that is all illusiory too. So from an illusiory perspective, who were you before you were born?, we could say, a different past life, if you will.

Well there is a before, that's when the non existent experience was happening, you've identified two experiances, a non existent experience and an existence illusion,  the fact there are two level and a transition between them indicates that time exists 

[Mr H]

3 hours ago, lobster said:

Well there is a before, that's when the non existent experience was happening, you've identified two experiances, a non existent experience and an existence illusion,  the fact there are two level and a transition between them indicates that time exists 

 

The word experience. Ex meaning outside. And old latin experiencia - trial/ experiment.

 

Outside experiment from what? I'm suggesting the dimensionless, timeless place called source or God or whatever you wanna call it. There is no experience occuring here.

 

Experience happens via creation, when God decides to create.

 

In the case of humans, experience is conducted via a mind. Everything you experience is ultimately mind.

 

The qualities of human mind is time and space, that is how a human experiences.

[lobster]

16 minutes ago, Mr H said:

 

The word experience. Ex meaning outside. And old latin experiencia - trial/ experiment.

 

Outside experiment from what? I'm suggesting the dimensionless, timeless place called source or God or whatever you wanna call it. There is no experience occuring here.

 

Experience happens via creation, when God decides to create.

 

In the case of humans, experience is conducted via a mind. Everything you experience is ultimately mind.

 

The qualities of human mind is time and space, that is how a human experiences.

Your rehashing you position rather than addressing my query 

 

Time could reasonable be defined as rate of change, that is for something to experiences change time must exist.

 

When you have identified two states of being, as you have and a transition between the two, that's change and is very strong evidence for the existence of time

 

Or if you wish to address how my point us incorrect,  you need to explain how change can occur with out time existing

Edited December 28, 2024 by lobster

[Campion]

16 hours ago, Mr H said:

Existence comes from the latin ex sistere, to stand out from. From what? From our true selves. All existence is illusiory.

 

There is no time and space ultimately,  so you weren't anywhere. Only In the dimensionless place our finite minds cannot comprehend. Which in ultimate reality we all reside now, always have and always will. 

  

If 'standing out' is illusory, then we can say that there are no distinctions to separate oneness into multiple 'things'. There can't be 'true selves' because that means multiplicity, 'true selves' standing apart from each other. There is just one true self which is the primal oneness. 

  

1 hour ago, Mr H said:

In the case of humans, experience is conducted via a mind. Everything you experience is ultimately mind.

  

So can we only experience ultimate reality after we die as humans and then the illusion ends and we merge back into oneness?  If all experiences are in a human mind, that includes all our spiritual practices, meditation, yoga prayer or whatever. 

[Mr H]

1 hour ago, lobster said:

Your rehashing you position rather than addressing my query 

 

Time could reasonable be defined as rate of change, that is for something to experiences change time must exist.

 

When you have identified two states of being, as you have and a transition between the two, that's change and is very strong evidence for the existence of time

 

Or if you wish to address how my point us incorrect,  you need to explain how change can occur with out time existing

 

I did answer this. We can give time whatever definition you wish. But it is experienced by humans (and animals but let's stick to what we know) because we have something called a mind and the qualities of mind are time and space. To put another way. Put a human headset on you will experience time and space. You will experience change and a before and after exactly as you are suggesting. So from a human headset perspective, what came before you? The answer is a glint in.your father's eyes.

 

Take off the human headset and you remove it's qualities which gave the illusion of time and space. So there is no before. It's difficult to comprehend because we have a human mind. But you can experience reality, i.e. no time and space via meditation, which is going to the place prior to mind arising and in this way can confirm the above assumption.

[Mr H]

1 hour ago, Campion said:

  

If 'standing out' is illusory, then we can say that there are no distinctions to separate oneness into multiple 'things'. There can't be 'true selves' because that means multiplicity, 'true selves' standing apart from each other. There is just one true self which is the primal oneness. 

  

  

So can we only experience ultimate reality after we die as humans and then the illusion ends and we merge back into oneness?  If all experiences are in a human mind, that includes all our spiritual practices, meditation, yoga prayer or whatever. 

I completely agree with First part.

 

Purest form of meditation is, going to the place prior to mind arising (temporarily removing the headset). It is the cheat code back home to reality, which we can tap into and is available to us in any moment. We don't need to die to experience it.

 

Edit in deep sleep we also have this too unless we dream.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Mr H

[lobster]

38 minutes ago, Mr H said:

 

I did answer this. We can give time whatever definition you wish. But it is experienced by humans (and animals but let's stick to what we know) because we have something called a mind and the qualities of mind are time and space. To put another way. Put a human headset on you will experience time and space. You will experience change and a before and after exactly as you are suggesting. So from a human headset perspective, what came before you? The answer is a glint in.your father's eyes.

 

Take off the human headset and you remove it's qualities which gave the illusion of time and space. So there is no before. It's difficult to comprehend because we have a human mind. But you can experience reality, i.e. no time and space via meditation, which is going to the place prior to mind arising and in this way can confirm the above assumption.

But your still skipping my point, which is you saythere is a change in our state of being 

 

If the transition happens with out our concous mind, which it must do, as by your description there is no conscious mind in one state of being, then time is a necessary component of that transition 

 

You cant fundamentally say time is an illusion whilst also saying transition is real

[Mr H]

34 minutes ago, lobster said:

But your still skipping my point, which is you saythere is a change in our state of being 

 

If the transition happens with out our concous mind, which it must do, as by your description there is no conscious mind in one state of being, then time is a necessary component of that transition 

 

You cant fundamentally say time is an illusion whilst also saying transition is real

I'm usually quite careful with words because they're not very good and bound by illusion.

 

 I can't remember mentioning the word change.....

 

Being never changes. It is prior to mind arising. We don't usually notice it because we get excited and enamoured by objective experience. But if we take the time we can notice it at any time via meditation. It doesn't have an off switch. This is primary. Or reality if you like, prior to putting on the headset.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Mr H

[Mr H]

37 minutes ago, lobster said:

But your still skipping my point, which is you saythere is a change in our state of being 

 

If the transition happens with out our concous mind, which it must do, as by your description there is no conscious mind in one state of being, then time is a necessary component of that transition 

 

You cant fundamentally say time is an illusion whilst also saying transition is real

If you are referring to the "change" from being, to putting on the headset. This is not bound by time. Being cannot experience time. Everything happens here and now. Our minds struggle to imagine happenings without time because it's part of minds make up

Edited December 28, 2024 by Mr H

[lobster]

10 minutes ago, Mr H said:

If you are referring to the "change" from being, to putting on the headset. This is not bound by time. Being cannot experience time. Everything happens here and now. Our minds struggle to imagine happenings without time because it's part of minds make up

You keep saying that, but what I'm really after is an explanation of how change can occur with out time,  rather than an assurance it doesnt need time

[Campion]

2 hours ago, Mr H said:

Being never changes. It is prior to mind arising. We don't usually notice it because we get excited and enamoured by objective experience. But if we take the time we can notice it at any time via meditation. It doesn't have an off switch. This is primary. Or reality if you like, prior to putting on the headset. 

  

I keep promising myself I'll refrain from getting into nondual discussions like this because the language is always inadequate and they often end up in arguments over ... nothing really.  But I've relapsed again.   

I mean, being is already everything so the notion that I can notice it, or experience it through some special spiritual practice, plays into the belief that "I" am separate from something out there called "being".  The very illusion we're trying to dispel, of course.  But that's where we're starting from I guess, and the spiritual teachings have to play along with our delusions otherwise there'd be no way in, no handle to grasp.  What we need to do is to find the space prior to the illusion, prior to conceptual thought rather than prior to mind imo, but that's just a difference in the inadequate language.