Are we here to learn lessons?

[Grumpy Grapes]

The 'Great Work' is the deluded act of a Mind who wants to create a world without consequences; without karma; without the all-seeing eye of 'God' providing a mirror of judgement. This Rebel Creator wants to be a counterfeit God, living in a fantasy world. 

 

I am reminded of an episode of the Simpsons in which Flanders's all-seeing security camera has blind spots that Bart discovers, so creates 'Satan's triangle' where he and others can break the rules with impunity. 

 

The snag for the Rebel Creator is that it had to go through a very long evolutionary period to create lifeforms (us) that can attempt to complete the Great Work, not that we'll succeed, I think. 

 

Who is this Rebel? It's us! But it had to fragment itself holographically to create this universe. It had to use itself as the building block. 

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by Grumpy Grapes

[Mr H]

5 hours ago, Grumpy Grapes said:

The 'Great Work' is the deluded act of a Mind who wants to create a world without consequences; without karma; without the all-seeing eye of 'God' providing a mirror of judgement. This Rebel Creator wants to be a counterfeit God, living in a fantasy world. 

 

I am reminded of an episode of the Simpsons in which Flanders's all-seeing security camera has blind spots that Bart discovers, so creates 'Satan's triangle' where he and others can break the rules with impunity. 

 

The snag for the Rebel Creator is that it had to go through a very long evolutionary period to create lifeforms (us) that can attempt to complete the Great Work, not that we'll succeed, I think. 

 

Who is this Rebel? It's us! But it had to fragment itself holographically to create this universe. It had to use itself as the building block. 

 

Interesting. I never heard this theory before. Ty for sharing

[pi3141]

21 hours ago, Mr H said:

To extend the conversation.

 

If we are not here to learn or grow. It perhaps is the case that the only purpose we have here is the ones we give it. Potentially leading the way for nihilism to be the true base philosophy of life...

 

19 hours ago, Puzzle said:

I don't think there's any need to learn anything other than how to manouvre around as best as we can in this denseness. I no longer believe in anything from a historic point of view as it's never going to be my story. It's too easy to change what came before.

 

In my opinion the purpose of life is to live, to experience life.

 

However, this life can be used as a development area for souls that need it, or a training area for those that choose the path.

 

You have a physical body, you can exercise that body and improve it, or you can choose not to and just be what nature gave you.

 

You have a brain, you can develop that brain by learning to read and then filling the brain with knowledge or you can develop artistic qualities and if you've developed your physical with it, you can play instruments, paint pictures and create in other ways.

 

Or you can choose not to.

 

There us spiritual development you can do, there is spiritual work you can do, or you can choose not to.

 

You can become a gymnast, an athlete, an expert, or you can choose a quiet family life.

 

Life is just for living, what you choose to do with it is your choice.

 

That's God's gift - life, with free will and boundless opportunities and possibilities constrained only by our own minds.

 

 

[Mr H]

22 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

 

In my opinion the purpose of life is to live, to experience life.

 

However, this life can be used as a development area for souls that need it, or a training area for those that choose the path.

 

You have a physical body, you can exercise that body and improve it, or you can choose not to and just be what nature gave you.

 

You have a brain, you can develop that brain by learning to read and then filling the brain with knowledge or you can develop artistic qualities and if you've developed your physical with it, you can play instruments, paint pictures and create in other ways.

 

Or you can choose not to.

 

There us spiritual development you can do, there is spiritual work you can do, or you can choose not to.

 

You can become a gymnast, an athlete, an expert, or you can choose a quiet family life.

 

Life is just for living, what you choose to do with it is your choice.

 

That's God's gift - life, with free will and boundless opportunities and possibilities constrained only by our own minds.

 

 

Interesting. Let's assume everything is true above.

 

Everything you create or develop here is temporary. Yes you can enjoy a great athletic body, then you will have to experience suffering losing it. Same with family and everything really. Is it all worth it for these temporary experiences and pleasures?

 

I think that question can only be answered at an individual level and why some choose the path of renunciation - this is all temporary bollox I want no part in it, or the path of full engagement - I will make this as interesting as I possibly can. I think both quite valid positions.

[pi3141]

5 hours ago, Mr H said:

Interesting. Let's assume everything is true above.

 

Everything you create or develop here is temporary. Yes you can enjoy a great athletic body, then you will have to experience suffering losing it. Same with family and everything really. Is it all worth it for these temporary experiences and pleasures?

 

I think that question can only be answered at an individual level and why some choose the path of renunciation - this is all temporary bollox I want no part in it, or the path of full engagement - I will make this as interesting as I possibly can. I think both quite valid positions.

 

I agree both are valid options for the individual, virtually all positive options are completely valid for individuals, it's our choice.

 

Some want the athletic body but losing it isn't a hardship, it's part of the process, or experience, some people choose an experience without worrying about consequences and then deal with the fallout and accept it as part of the experience. 

 

As far as losing the perfect body to cross over, that's nothing. Why not sharpen your senses, reactions and intelligence? It's pointless in the end because this life is temporary, bit so what, why not see what you can do, why not develop skills and senses, just for the sake of it, to see what you can do, how far you can go.

 

It's not pointless, it's not necessary, it makes no difference in the end, but we're not at the end.

 

If learning to do a back flip brings joy ad we'll as the discipline, training and mental aptitude then it's worth doing.

 

In the next life you'll be able to back flip by thinking about it, but unless you did it while your here, you'll never know how it feels here.

 

For some, it doesn't matter. I can't back flip, or cartwheel. But that's not my thing, I haven't tried because the effort and reward is not worth it to me personally.  It's not a din, it's a missed opportunity, or experience but there are many experiences in this life, some good some bad, that I may not necessarily experience, it doesn't matter to me, I may look back and think 'I wish I'd done that' it may be in this world or the next. What matters is I get to the end and I'm happy with my effort and outcome of this experience. 

 

If I get to the other side and someone asks if I ever sky dived - at night with a full moon over Brazil coastline, I'll have to admit I didn't, I didn't know, it didn't occur, I didn't get the opportunity. I'll be sad about it, but it won't be soul destroying if I lived a life I was happy with, whatever my opportunity or outcome, it'll be ok.

 

Life is for living, what you do with it is entirely your choice, there is no right or wrong (except the obvious, but I accept evil for what it is)

[Mr H]

20 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

I agree both are valid options for the individual, virtually all positive options are completely valid for individuals, it's our choice.

 

Some want the athletic body but losing it isn't a hardship, it's part of the process, or experience, some people choose an experience without worrying about consequences and then deal with the fallout and accept it as part of the experience. 

 

As far as losing the perfect body to cross over, that's nothing. Why not sharpen your senses, reactions and intelligence? It's pointless in the end because this life is temporary, bit so what, why not see what you can do, why not develop skills and senses, just for the sake of it, to see what you can do, how far you can go.

 

It's not pointless, it's not necessary, it makes no difference in the end, but we're not at the end.

 

If learning to do a back flip brings joy ad we'll as the discipline, training and mental aptitude then it's worth doing.

 

In the next life you'll be able to back flip by thinking about it, but unless you did it while your here, you'll never know how it feels here.

 

For some, it doesn't matter. I can't back flip, or cartwheel. But that's not my thing, I haven't tried because the effort and reward is not worth it to me personally.  It's not a din, it's a missed opportunity, or experience but there are many experiences in this life, some good some bad, that I may not necessarily experience, it doesn't matter to me, I may look back and think 'I wish I'd done that' it may be in this world or the next. What matters is I get to the end and I'm happy with my effort and outcome of this experience. 

 

If I get to the other side and someone asks if I ever sky dived - at night with a full moon over Brazil coastline, I'll have to admit I didn't, I didn't know, it didn't occur, I didn't get the opportunity. I'll be sad about it, but it won't be soul destroying if I lived a life I was happy with, whatever my opportunity or outcome, it'll be ok.

 

Life is for living, what you do with it is entirely your choice, there is no right or wrong (except the obvious, but I accept evil for what it is)

Yes I would agree it is a valid option but only for minority of individuals. Majority live in terrible poverty with few options.

 

I would also agree from one perspective your analysis of the situation is the most intelligent one. 

 

But from a different perspective an eastern one. There is Maya and Brahman. Or the illusiory world and that which never changes, many westerners referring to it as consciousness. The path of renunciation focuses the experiencer to give their attention and being to that which is real and never changes and not be concerned with illusions except for practical needs. Although this will not induce as many pleasurable emotional and mental highs as the former way of being, it is more aligned with truth and could be deemed as more intelligible for this reason.

 

Personally I'm slightly undecided on the matter. My ego wants as many cool experiences and positive emotions as it can drink, but my soul does not seem to agree at this point in time. It seems to want absolute truth.

 

I think there maybe a balance to be struck somewhere here, knowing this is all a load of bollox but getting stuck in anyways which in the eastern traditions is more aligned with the tantra path.

 

 

[Mr H]

@pi3141

 

I'll try and say above in a different way to better communicate.

 

You're in the wilderness. You see the most beautiful mountain you've ever seen. It is standing there shining brightly. You are mesmerized by its beauty. It's just there in the vastness, not doing anything other than being a beautiful immovable mountain.

 

You hear a sound. You are distracted. You see some rocks fall off . You get excited, chemicals rush throughout your body. What's going to happen to these falling rocks?, I never seen it before. You watch them fall, crumble and perish on the ground.... 

 

You then later see it again. This time the excitement of the rocks falling isn't quite as intense. But still quite exciting nonetheless. Again you watch it fall off the side and perish on the ground.

 

The next time you don't even bother to look. You know how it ends, you understand the temporary chemical rushes don't last. Instead you focus again on the immovable mountain in all it's beautiful glory. The thing that was just there all the time.

[truepositive]

On 8/26/2024 at 12:21 AM, Grumpy Grapes said:

The 'Great Work' is the deluded act of a Mind who wants to create a world without consequences; without karma; without the all-seeing eye of 'God' providing a mirror of judgement. This Rebel Creator wants to be a counterfeit God, living in a fantasy world. 

 

I am reminded of an episode of the Simpsons in which Flanders's all-seeing security camera has blind spots that Bart discovers, so creates 'Satan's triangle' where he and others can break the rules with impunity. 

 

The snag for the Rebel Creator is that it had to go through a very long evolutionary period to create lifeforms (us) that can attempt to complete the Great Work, not that we'll succeed, I think. 

 

Who is this Rebel? It's us! But it had to fragment itself holographically to create this universe. It had to use itself as the building block. 

 

So reality is supposed to be led sternly and in an orderly fashion by the original creator, not the rebel, and then all will be well?

 

What if every entity that has been endowed with a name in (known) history knows little more than any of us. Consider Anselm's ontology deeply, and not just for a minute or two. If you want this in the form of modern media, consider The Neverending Story and eXistenZ. Put those two together, and you are getting close to the vastness of -why- you know nothing. It's not a deep enigma conceptually, really, just unsatisfying to anyone wanting or demanding some kind of lasting solution. Because thats it, there is no such thing when permanent change is the only truth.

 

Once again, consider that last line very carefully before you throw platitudes at this post.

 

 

[Grumpy Grapes]

7 hours ago, truepositive said:

So reality is supposed to be led sternly and in an orderly fashion by the original creator, not the rebel, and then all will be well?

 

What if every entity that has been endowed with a name in (known) history knows little more than any of us. Consider Anselm's ontology deeply, and not just for a minute or two. If you want this in the form of modern media, consider The Neverending Story and eXistenZ. Put those two together, and you are getting close to the vastness of -why- you know nothing. It's not a deep enigma conceptually, really, just unsatisfying to anyone wanting or demanding some kind of lasting solution. Because thats it, there is no such thing when permanent change is the only truth.

 

Once again, consider that last line very carefully before you throw platitudes at this post.

 

 

 

I didn't say that, in your words, "...reality is supposed to be led sternly and in an orderly fashion by the original creator, not the rebel, and then all will be well?" 

 

Karma (cause and effect, aka 'God' ) is a mechanism, not a conscious mind, and naturally reflects our interactions like a mirror. A mirror doesn't pass judgment, but allows us to see ourselves as we truly are, provided the mirror is doing its' job. The Rebel is trying to remove the mirror, or at least distort it. Dracula doesn't have a reflection. 

 

If this world is a mess, that's primarily our fault, not the fault of the mirror. 

[Mr H]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Grapes said:

 

 

Karma (cause and effect, aka 'God' ) is a mechanism, not a conscious mind, and naturally reflects our interactions like a mirror. A mirror doesn't pass judgment, but allows us to see ourselves as we truly are, provided the mirror is doing its' job. The Rebel is trying to remove the mirror, or at least distort it. Dracula doesn't have a reflection. 

 

If this world is a mess, that's primarily our fault, not the fault of the mirror. 

Is this your theory Grumpy?

 

Never heard of this before. Definitely got the brain cells going very interesting indeed..

[Grumpy Grapes]

31 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Is this your theory Grumpy?

 

Never heard of this before. Definitely got the brain cells going very interesting indeed..

 

Yes, I deduced it by trying to find a coherent theory that incorporates many of the common themes in Mythology, Religion, Sci-fi and Science. 

 

A key theme is the attempt to defy God/the Gods. 

[pi3141]

22 hours ago, Mr H said:

Yes I would agree it is a valid option but only for minority of individuals. Majority live in terrible poverty with few options.

 

 

Yes but what your describing is not a natural situation it's one of our making, the bad we find here does not condemn the validity of life. I could argue poverty us temporary, in 100 years we may have got our act together and there is no more food or energy poverty. 

 

That's just a material perspective, not really a spiritual argument. 

 

[pi3141]

22 hours ago, Mr H said:

But from a different perspective an eastern one. There is Maya and Brahman. Or the illusiory world and that which never changes, many westerners referring to it as consciousness. The path of renunciation focuses the experiencer to give their attention and being to that which is real and never changes and not be concerned with illusions except for practical needs. Although this will not induce as many pleasurable emotional and mental highs as the former way of being, it is more aligned with truth and could be deemed as more intelligible for this 

 

 

 

This is a spiritual path, an Atheist has no interest in such a path, it does not make them a bad person, their actions define that, because they do not choose a spiritual path, does not mean their life experience is less valid than someone who can unlock mystery and see beyond the veil or sense beyond the normal realms.

 

Why not have both?

[pi3141]

11 hours ago, Mr H said:

@pi3141

 

I'll try and say above in a different way to better communicate.

 

You're in the wilderness. You see the most beautiful mountain you've ever seen. It is standing there shining brightly. You are mesmerized by its beauty. It's just there in the vastness, not doing anything other than being a beautiful immovable mountain.

 

You hear a sound. You are distracted. You see some rocks fall off . You get excited, chemicals rush throughout your body. What's going to happen to these falling rocks?, I never seen it before. You watch them fall, crumble and perish on the ground.... 

 

You then later see it again. This time the excitement of the rocks falling isn't quite as intense. But still quite exciting nonetheless. Again you watch it fall off the side and perish on the ground.

 

The next time you don't even bother to look. You know how it ends, you understand the temporary chemical rushes don't last. Instead you focus again on the immovable mountain in all it's beautiful glory. The thing that was just there all the time.

 

That's not a reason why not to enjoy the first experience, and then move on, or accept it for what it is.

 

Sometimes repeated observation produces unexpected results.

[Mr H]

1 minute ago, pi3141 said:

 

Yes but what your describing is not a natural situation it's one of our making, the bad we find here does not condemn the validity of life. I could argue poverty us temporary, in 100 years we may have got our act together and there is no more food or energy poverty. 

 

That's just a material perspective, not really a spiritual argument. 

 

 

 

When I look at history of man, or at nature, it appears at least that struggle is the natural default setting of nature. And luxury or doing what you want is quite a modern phenomenon driven by the tech age mainly.

 

However, saying that. If I abide in my true nature it does appear limitless.

 

Bit of a paradox there for me.

 

Interesting to think about for sure.

 

 

[pi3141]

1 minute ago, Mr H said:

 

 

When I look at history of man, or at nature, it appears at least that struggle is the natural default setting of nature. And luxury or doing what you want is quite a modern phenomenon driven by the tech age mainly.

 

However, saying that. If I abide in my true nature it does appear limitless.

 

Bit of a paradox there for me.

 

Interesting to think about for sure.

 

 

 

How many people repeatedly looked at the Pyramids and when did someone realise it was water erosion?

 

Sometimes someone sees what no one else has.

 

That means it's worth you and me and anyone going to look for themselves, you may be the one to discover or unlock a mystery. 

 

Doing something over and over can provide profound insights and allow a superhuman control over something. 

 

Life is fun if you look at it as a training ground.

 

Have you seen the 13th Chamber of Shaolin ?

 

If not go and watch it, you will see life, prison, can be training grounds for spiritual and physical. 

 

It's just perspective. 

[Mr H]

7 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

That's not a reason why not to enjoy the first experience, and then move on, or accept it for what it is.

 

Sometimes repeated observation produces unexpected results.

Just speaking on a personal level. I just don't get any fulfillment from objective experience. Because I know it's not real and it's temporary. I also know if I attach fulfillment or happiness to Objective experience, I will always be disappointed, because the feelings or experience I am really after is within and self generated, it's not in the object. I also know any high has to be followed with a low and vis versa and prefer balance 

 

Just personal choice. I understand why folks chase relationship, objects and experiences as I did it myself. I just don't see how it can lead to anything sustaining or meaningful.

 

Probably makes me sound a real misery guts which I'm not. I am.artist archetype and do pass the time creating things, but under no illusion it will give me anything.

[pi3141]

If anyone wants a fun spiritual lesson, go watch this film.

 

It shows you that even your prison can be a training ground.

 

It shows you that the same teaching aid can be used spiritually and physically for development. 

 

If anyone thinks you can't get a spiritual message from a film - why not?

 

Why can't a pictorial fictional story impart a moral lesson?

 

Books can, poetry can, music can, so can film.

 

The 36th Chamber of Shaolin

 

The 36th Chamber of Shaolin (also known as The Master Killer, Shaolin Master Killer and Shao Lin San Shi Liu Fang) is a 1978 Hong Kong kung fu film directed by Lau Kar-leung and produced by Shaw Brothers, starring Gordon Liu. The film follows a highly fictionalized version of San Te, a legendary Shaolin martial arts disciple who trained under the general Chi Shan.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_36th_Chamber_of_Shaolin

[pi3141]

1 minute ago, Mr H said:

Just speaking on a personal level. I just don't get any fulfillment from objective experience. Because I know it's not real and it's temporary.

 

Then your ignoring the point.

 

We're here to see it, feel, emote it, experience it, you cannot be here again, you cannot experience it from the other side, you cannot repeat this experience. 

 

If you don't make the most of it, you've wasted it.

 

But that does not mean everyone must do everything, some people don't. That doesn't invalidate their experience. 

 

Hence there is nothing wrong with your attitude to life if you truly happy with it.

 

But equally, everybody else's choices are equally valid.

 

Even if that means you choose to do nothing. 

 

I don't care about people on benefits, if that's how they want to live, OK, if that's how their forced to live, I'm sorry, that's a shit deal. But if they accept it and decide just to live on it, I'm not judging and I hope they at least get enough money to have some enjoyment in life.

 

If some people choose it because they don't fit in with society then I'm glad it's there for them.

 

But if they want to move away, find work, build themselves a life, more power to them.

 

If once they get a trade or steady income they just want a family life and no spiritual exploration then that's OK. They haven't failed, they're fucking champions in my eyes.

 

If they then decide to take up a hobby or sport and excel then it's a great life isn't it?

 

For others a monastery and meditation and prayers with strict diet is what they want.

 

For others, it's just a life with a mixture of pleasure and family and maybe some exotic holidays.

 

We're all different and no way of living us strictly the right way.

 

No such thing, God gave us free will, it's for you to decide how you want to spend it.

[Mr H]

11 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

How many people repeatedly looked at the Pyramids and when did someone realise it was water erosion?

 

Sometimes someone sees what no one else has.

 

That means it's worth you and me and anyone going to look for themselves, you may be the one to discover or unlock a mystery. 

 

Doing something over and over can provide profound insights and allow a superhuman control over something. 

 

Life is fun if you look at it as a training ground.

 

Have you seen the 13th Chamber of Shaolin ?

 

If not go and watch it, you will see life, prison, can be training grounds for spiritual and physical. 

 

It's just perspective. 

No, I watched the old movie 36 chambers of Shaolin not heard of this. Will check it out

 

Yes you can unlock mysteries but it's only relative. Pyramid is a human concept. It doesn't exist for other animals or other beings with different/ more senses. We can unlock it's mysteries and have some fun doing it, but it's not dealing with absolute truth.

 

I do agree it's all about perspective and also just being intelligent about things. If we can do things we enjoy, why not? But fulfillment not for me personally. I can only get that by abiding in and exploring that which never changes.

[pi3141]

 

[Mr H]

1 hour ago, pi3141 said:

 

Then your ignoring the point.

 

We're here to see it, feel, emote it, experience it, you cannot be here again, you cannot experience it from the other side, you cannot repeat this experience. 

 

If you don't make the most of it, you've wasted it.

 

But that does not mean everyone must do everything, some people don't. That doesn't invalidate their experience. 

 

Hence there is nothing wrong with your attitude to life if you truly happy with it.

 

But equally, everybody else's choices are equally valid.

 

Even if that means you choose to do nothing. 

 

I don't care about people on benefits, if that's how they want to live, OK, if that's how their forced to live, I'm sorry, that's a shit deal. But if they accept it and decide just to live on it, I'm not judging and I hope they at least get enough money to have some enjoyment in life.

 

If some people choose it because they don't fit in with society then I'm glad it's there for them.

 

But if they want to move away, find work, build themselves a life, more power to them.

 

If once they get a trade or steady income they just want a family life and no spiritual exploration then that's OK. They haven't failed, they're fucking champions in my eyes.

 

If they then decide to take up a hobby or sport and excel then it's a great life isn't it?

 

For others a monastery and meditation and prayers with strict diet is what they want.

 

For others, it's just a life with a mixture of pleasure and family and maybe some exotic holidays.

 

We're all different and no way of living us strictly the right way.

 

No such thing, God gave us free will, it's for you to decide how you want to spend it.

Yes I wasn't trying to imply my way or anyway is the best way.As Francis Assisi said, " love and do what you want". I was describing how I felt and what I consider making the most of it - being concerned with that which never changes and forms all reality, rather than the temporary illusions that appear in it.

 

Personally I have not experienced free will as a human experiencer, everything just happens. But that's a different discussion

[truepositive]

It's not.

[truepositive]

On 8/27/2024 at 3:59 PM, Grumpy Grapes said:

 

I didn't say that, in your words, "...reality is supposed to be led sternly and in an orderly fashion by the original creator, not the rebel, and then all will be well?" 

 

Karma (cause and effect, aka 'God' ) is a mechanism, not a conscious mind, and naturally reflects our interactions like a mirror. A mirror doesn't pass judgment, but allows us to see ourselves as we truly are, provided the mirror is doing its' job. The Rebel is trying to remove the mirror, or at least distort it. Dracula doesn't have a reflection. 

 

If this world is a mess, that's primarily our fault, not the fault of the mirror. 

But what if it is not ultimatimately dual like that?

What if the rules of the game change permanently because reality itself does the same thing?