Are we here to learn lessons?

[Mr H]

Mind chitter chatter.......

 

 

There is a thesis in new age theology that states that we come here by choice to learn lessons. Then die and come back, learn more and so on it goes. We're continually evolving essentially...

 

On my walk today I was pondering...

 

This experience is without a doubt an illusion. This can be proven by science (physical), experience (consciousness )or through thought (mind).

 

Now let me ask a question.

 

Would you like to learn more about aboojowoojoo?

 

Well what's that you might ask?

 

It's just something I made up, it's not even real. How do you fancy learning about it? May involve some suffering and stuff too..

 

Well no thanks, you got anything real over there to study? 

 

The proposition seems nonsensical and not enticing. Why would you want to learn about essentially fake stuffs?

 

Also, as an addition. If we are "Gods" which maybe contentious statement. But if true. We already know everything and we create everything at some level outside the body mind. So they would be nothing new to actually learn....

 

I also had to watch a sheep do a little poopie in the field during my pondering.

 

Was an eventful day

[Campion]

Yeah, I can see how some people think it's a good belief, it gives meaning to all the senseless suffering and unfairness here on earth, only to end in death. And if we're unlucky we get dementia and forget most of what we learned in life anyway. Isn't it intolerable, as an ego, to think that however successful and powerful we become in life, we will lose it all at the end when we die. Or if we aren't successful and have a difficult life, it's hard for the ego to believe that's it and we won't get another chance for a better future.  So perhaps beliefs like this (including other religious beliefs about the afterlife and heaven/hell) serve some survival purpose for those of us who believe we really are a separate individual living our story in a hostile world and struggling to survive and make meaning out of it all.  The alternative is, well, it's unthinkable and only those crazy nondualists go there.  

 

Not that this New Age belief of learning lessons in many reincarnations is original to them, it sounds pretty similar to Hindu beliefs of karma and reincarnation where people learn to be good to get good karma and a better rebirth. 

[Grumpy Grapes]

I don't think this realm is meant to be a spiritual university, but there is a harsh lesson to be learnt when you temporarily give up your true identity and true abilities; lose your wings, so to speak, which is what we did in order to exist in this seemingly 'godless' world. 

[Mr H]

16 hours ago, Campion said:

Yeah, I can see how some people think it's a good belief, it gives meaning to all the senseless suffering and unfairness here on earth, only to end in death. And if we're unlucky we get dementia and forget most of what we learned in life anyway. Isn't it intolerable, as an ego, to think that however successful and powerful we become in life, we will lose it all at the end when we die. Or if we aren't successful and have a difficult life, it's hard for the ego to believe that's it and we won't get another chance for a better future.  So perhaps beliefs like this (including other religious beliefs about the afterlife and heaven/hell) serve some survival purpose for those of us who believe we really are a separate individual living our story in a hostile world and struggling to survive and make meaning out of it all.  The alternative is, well, it's unthinkable and only those crazy nondualists go there.  

 

Not that this New Age belief of learning lessons in many reincarnations is original to them, it sounds pretty similar to Hindu beliefs of karma and reincarnation where people learn to be good to get good karma and a better rebirth. 

Firstly I should just clarify I'm not saying this not the case. I was trying to say that it is nonsensical and silly, but still could be the case.

 

Yes I share many of your thoughts on this matter and excellent point about forgetting it, making it even more pointless. Even in this lifetime human memory is not accurate - I remember reading a study ( can't remember the name) it said everytime you recall a memory it gets distorted. And many lessons are linked to memory - so will also be distorted, adjusted potentially unlearned even in this lifetime!

 

Yes karma and reincarnating doesn't make any sense to me either, except from a scientist standpoint, that my cells might become a tree or something, but that's it as far as I can tell?

 

I think you're right the main purpose of this is to give meaning to something that is meaningless (hard to accept) . I also think it is used for monetary gain and to distract humans in some way.

[Mr H]

14 hours ago, Grumpy Grapes said:

I don't think this realm is meant to be a spiritual university, but there is a harsh lesson to be learnt when you temporarily give up your true identity and true abilities; lose your wings, so to speak, which is what we did in order to exist in this seemingly 'godless' world. 

If this is the case, will be interesting to know how we were seduced here....

[Mr H]

The other explanatory thought I had on this.

 

 

 

This whatever it is, illusiory world if we can say that. The mechanics of the macrocosmic universe is evolutionary. If you delve into microscopic layers to species and plants, it is the same. And we are part of that system, as are our minds. So minds being part of the system has the idea we must grow or learn and posits as an explanation....

[JONJAY79]

Makes no sense what so ever. I had a friend who tried to convince me we all decide what we need to learn before we are born so everything that we go through in life we have chosen. 

 

I very much doubt some children have chosen to become sex slaves then murdered. 

 

My own belief is we can be the creator's of our own energetic vibrations that can lead us to a better place. 

 

Bit like Jacobs ladder with multiple universes and depending on our energetic vibrations determines which multiverse and time line we switch to. 

 

Many of us are going to find ourselves on many different time lines depending on what we give out some maybe better than other's. 

 

I also have a strong belief when we die we don't actually realise we die and just carry on a different time line.

[Mr H]

18 minutes ago, JONJAY79 said:

Makes no sense what so ever. I had a friend who tried to convince me we all decide what we need to learn before we are born so everything that we go through in life we have chosen. 

 

I very much doubt some children have chosen to become sex slaves then murdered. 

 

My own belief is we can be the creator's of our own energetic vibrations that can lead us to a better place. 

 

Bit like Jacobs ladder with multiple universes and depending on our energetic vibrations determines which multiverse and time line we switch to. 

 

Many of us are going to find ourselves on many different time lines depending on what we give out some maybe better than other's. 

 

I also have a strong belief when we die we don't actually realise we die and just carry on a different time line.

Would be cool if we get to jump universes!

 

Yeah I think how the folks proposing this theory would explain wanting to experience being tortured/murdered, is that it's like a video game, so it doesn't matter and you got bored of doing other stuff..

 

But yeah, if I do have a higher self, I kinda expect it to be more intelligent than me, and that sounds totally stupid if you ask me, to even consider that when there are so many other choices. Even a beer with Tony Blair would be more enticing an experience!

[Grumpy Grapes]

3 hours ago, Mr H said:

If this is the case, will be interesting to know how we were seduced here....

 

We (or rather 'I'; there's only one mind here) weren't seduced, IMO, but chose to be here in the mistaken belief that we (I) could cheat the universal laws of Creation, as symbolised by the Adam and Eve story. 

Edited August 21, 2024 by Grumpy Grapes

[Mr H]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Grapes said:

 

We (or rather 'I'; there's only one mind here) weren't seduced, IMO, but chose to be here in the mistaken belief that we (I) could cheat the universal laws of Creation, as symbolised by the Adam and Eve story. 

Thanks. Would you mind expanding a little on the laws of creation what that is and how it relates to Adam and Eve?

[Grumpy Grapes]

God symbolises the correct, natural, 'divine', method of creation. God gets angry with Adam and Eve because they discover a new, unorthodox, unnatural method of creation, one that bypasses God.

 

Consequently, they are kicked out of Eden into a world where they can continue to create in the new way.

 

But here's the twist.

 

God effectively sanctions this rebellion by sending in the Serpent with the forbidden knowledge, and later tells Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply.

 

So there are 2 Gods here: the rebellious one who created this world, and the divine one that represents the natural laws of creating and interacting. 

 

 

[Mr H]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Grapes said:

God symbolises the correct, natural, 'divine', method of creation. God gets angry with Adam and Eve because they discover a new, unorthodox, unnatural method of creation, one that bypasses God.

 

Consequently, they are kicked out of Eden into a world where they can continue to create in the new way.

 

But here's the twist.

 

God effectively sanctions this rebellion by sending in the Serpent with the forbidden knowledge, and later tells Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply.

 

So there are 2 Gods here: the rebellious one who created this world, and the divine one that represents the natural laws of creating and interacting. 

 

 

Thanks. Gonna revisit the story. Lot of hidden meanings I missed...

[Campion]

2 hours ago, Grumpy Grapes said:

God symbolises the correct, natural, 'divine', method of creation. God gets angry with Adam and Eve because they discover a new, unorthodox, unnatural method of creation, one that bypasses God.

 

Consequently, they are kicked out of Eden into a world where they can continue to create in the new way.

 

But here's the twist.

 

God effectively sanctions this rebellion by sending in the Serpent with the forbidden knowledge, and later tells Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply.

 

So there are 2 Gods here: the rebellious one who created this world, and the divine one that represents the natural laws of creating and interacting. 

 

 

  

I'm trying to understand, are you saying the God of Genesis created the world, animals and humans through his divine magic and the serpent introduced sexual reproduction that doesn't need God?  In that case we would have it the wrong way round because we think nature is the sexual way - all the other animals do it too not just us - and divine miracles are the supernatural way.  

 

Imo it could just as easily be the other way round: 'divine miracle' is a coded reference to technological ancient aliens ("God") doing their genetic experimentation on the early humans creating alien hybrids, in their laboratory called Eden. Then releasing the resulting new strain into the wild so they can interbreed with the natural humans (who else did they breed with?) and pass on their genetically modified strain into certain bloodlines which have been carefully continued to this day. 

[Grumpy Grapes]

The Bible is confusing and difficult to decode, deliberately so, IMO. There seems to be more than one Creator, or at least just one Creator but with multiple personality disorder. I think this reflects the differing ways that one can create, and the different places where one can exist. We are in a realm where the divine laws are twisted, but not broken (that's impossible, IMO). 

 

God (the rebellious one) and the serpent are one and the same. It's not coincidence that Jesus and Lucifer are both light bringers, and both descend to Earth. Both are rejected by God (the rejected stone). 

 

 

[Campion]

The narrative is a bit confusing, but it makes sense when put into historical perspective because the Israelite elite* including the Levite priestly class was taken into captivity in Babylon, where their Hebrew mythology got mixed up with the Babylonian polytheistic mythology such as the Epic of Gilgamesh.  Cultures weren't hermetically sealed off from each other and there was some osmosis between them, not only through invasion, also with general trade and travelling.  

  

*  I just noticed that elite is at the end of Israelite  

[Origin]

The construct mercilessly reflects what we are. Even the meat suits are no coincidence. Earth is a result of all those who have to come here. What can be seen? Endless wars over nothing, endless lies to gain an advantage. But every decision has a consequence. The other side knows every human lie, excuse why the individual could not have done better. Anyone who deludes themselves will see a more than unpleasant reflection of themselves at the end of their existence. To worship it doesn't help, it's like a toddler who didn't want to admit that he had a choice. Because it was too obvious that everything here is wrong. It wasn't that difficult. And Humans were given the opportunity to see.

[Mr H]

4 hours ago, Origin said:

The construct mercilessly reflects what we are. Even the meat suits are no coincidence. Earth is a result of all those who have to come here. What can be seen? Endless wars over nothing, endless lies to gain an advantage. But every decision has a consequence. The other side knows every human lie, excuse why the individual could not have done better. Anyone who deludes themselves will see a more than unpleasant reflection of themselves at the end of their existence. To worship it doesn't help, it's like a toddler who didn't want to admit that he had a choice. Because it was too obvious that everything here is wrong. It wasn't that difficult. And Humans were given the opportunity to see.

When you speak those words they definitely resonate

[Mitochondrial Eve]

22 hours ago, Campion said:

The narrative is a bit confusing, but it makes sense when put into historical perspective because the Israelite elite* including the Levite priestly class was taken into captivity in Babylon, where their Hebrew mythology got mixed up with the Babylonian polytheistic mythology such as the Epic of Gilgamesh.  Cultures weren't hermetically sealed off from each other and there was some osmosis between them, not only through invasion, also with general trade and travelling.  

  

*  I just noticed that elite is at the end of Israelite  

 

Regarding your point about the osmosis between ancient cultures, I have recently stumbled upon Jon F White's YouTube channel 'Crecganford'. He is a specialist in Indo-European mythology and brings together what we know of the folklore and beliefs of ancient cultures and identifies common motifs.

 

He believes that the start of Genesis is a synopsis of the Babylonian creation myth as described in the Enuma Elish with influences from Egyptian tradition too thus making it a re-telling of stories from older traditions. From 15 minutes into the video below, he discusses Adam and Eve and draws comparisons between the use of Adam's rib to create Eve and the apparently common ancient mythological motif of sacrifice which received considerable attention in Sir James Frazer's classic The Golden Bough. The snake in the Garden of Eden acts out the role of the trickster who duped mankind into losing immortality which, according to White, is one of the longest told myths.

 

There is also a Crecganford mythology and folklore database. I haven't found time yet to properly search around the site but the link is below for anyone interested.

 

https://www.mythologydatabase.com/

 

I will say, however, that Jon F White comes across as a bit woke which some may wish to keep in mind. He also seems to eschew anything which deviates too far from mainstream historical understanding.

 

 

[pi3141]

I would just like to point out there are 2 Creation accounts in the Bible.

 

In the first account, God simply makes Man and Woman, no special order and no details given.

 

It is only in the second account or telling of Creation that God uses a rib from Adam.

 

Why?

 

Well I'm not sure but Judaism has the account of Lillith as the first woman, Eve came second.

 

So maybe the two different Creation stories should be read as 2 different accounts, with Lillith being Adam's first wife, created equally and Eve being the second attempt and given an inferior origin.

 

For me, these unexplained inconsistencies in the Bible points to the Bible as NOT the inerrant word of God.

 

If there was a first Creation event, followed by a second, we should know why. To put two differing accounts, with little explanation as to why, is a dead giveaway it's been edited or changed.

 

And it's hugely selective to read from one account and ignore the other.

 

But to be honest, how many people even realise the opening chapter of Genesis contains 2 separate Creation accounts?

 

I didn't notice the first time I read Genesis. 

 

[Campion]

11 hours ago, pi3141 said:

I would just like to point out there are 2 Creation accounts in the Bible.

 

In the first account, God simply makes Man and Woman, no special order and no details given.

 

It is only in the second account or telling of Creation that God uses a rib from Adam.

 

Why?

 

Well I'm not sure but Judaism has the account of Lillith as the first woman, Eve came second.

 

So maybe the two different Creation stories should be read as 2 different accounts, with Lillith being Adam's first wife, created equally and Eve being the second attempt and given an inferior origin.

 

For me, these unexplained inconsistencies in the Bible points to the Bible as NOT the inerrant word of God.

 

If there was a first Creation event, followed by a second, we should know why. To put two differing accounts, with little explanation as to why, is a dead giveaway it's been edited or changed.

 

And it's hugely selective to read from one account and ignore the other.

 

But to be honest, how many people even realise the opening chapter of Genesis contains 2 separate Creation accounts?

 

I didn't notice the first time I read Genesis. 

 

 

They come from two different sources i think. From memory chapters 1 and 2 have different names for God (El and Yahweh) and chapter 1 has a polytheistic God "Let us make mankind in our image".  Then the Bible / Torah was compiled later. 

[pi3141]

3 hours ago, Campion said:

They come from two different sources i think. From memory chapters 1 and 2 have different names for God (El and Yahweh) and chapter 1 has a polytheistic God "Let us make mankind in our image".  Then the Bible / Torah was compiled later. 

 

Yes your correct, the first account is from the Priestly source.

 

Then there's Yahwist, Elohist, Deuteronomist and Priestly, all distinctively different sources or origins.

 

I'm intrigued to know exactly from whom or where these accounts originated. 

 

If the Bible is the original word of God, how come another Priestly class supplied these writings if those Priests weren't Christian.

 

How can we tell, that first account is so well written, so concise and polished that it must have been the product of a religious school, and therefore that Priestly school must have existed before Christianity. 

 

I just did a bit of AI Googling, apparently in the first Creation account, God promises NOT to flood the Earth.

 

Well that worked out well didn't it.

[Mr H]

To extend the conversation.

 

If we are not here to learn or grow. It perhaps is the case that the only purpose we have here is the ones we give it. Potentially leading the way for nihilism to be the true base philosophy of life...

[Puzzle]

I don't think there's any need to learn anything other than how to manouvre around as best as we can in this denseness. I no longer believe in anything from a historic point of view as it's never going to be my story. It's too easy to change what came before.

[Grumpy Grapes]

Or maybe the purpose is to fulfill the 'Great Work'. I won't repeat what I think it is, unless someone hasn't heard my interpretation. 

[Mr H]

56 minutes ago, Grumpy Grapes said:

Or maybe the purpose is to fulfill the 'Great Work'. I won't repeat what I think it is, unless someone hasn't heard my interpretation. 

I did not hear it