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There is no personal responsibility


Mr H

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A difficult pill to swallow for some.

 

It's nice to think I am a great guy with great morals and there's this evil master Klaus who chose a different path. 

 

This is how I would like it to be...

 

How it is....

 

Thoughts and feelings decide actions, particularly thoughts, which I will stick with for example.

 

Do I choose my thoughts?

 

Fk no. I don't....

 

Should I believe MR H on the matter?

 

No you shouldn't!

 

See for yourself...

 

Try now and only select happy thoughts for the next 30 seconds straight. Try and think. Of a pear in 2 mins time....

 

None of these things are possible.

 

Your experience proves it.

 

If you have evidence to disprove the above please write below.

 

Until then, there is no point blaming anyone for your predicament!

 

Everything is as it is, and how it should be.

 

Peace.

 

 

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Someone may say

 

Well Mr H. We don't control our thoughts but we can decide what to do with them.

 

Decisions themselves are thoughts.....and again we circle back that thoughts are not chosen.

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There is part of Mr H who would like to be wrong on this. Because Mr H has been led to believe all along, that Mr H was doing stuff of his own Accord in the game. He actually believed he was the one playing, rather than just being a casual observer....

 

All these things I assigned to Mr H..

 

All these things Mr H blamed on others...

 

Poof.....

 

Up in smoke..

 

Poor ol little Mr H!

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1 hour ago, Mr H said:

A difficult pill to swallow for some.

 

It's nice to think I am a great guy with great morals and there's this evil master Klaus who chose a different path. 

 

This is how I would like it to be...

 

How it is....

 

Thoughts and feelings decide actions, particularly thoughts, which I will stick with for example.

 

Do I choose my thoughts?

 

Fk no. I don't....

 

Should I believe MR H on the matter?

 

No you shouldn't!

 

See for yourself...

 

Try now and only select happy thoughts for the next 30 seconds straight. Try and think. Of a pear in 2 mins time....

 

None of these things are possible.

 

Your experience proves it.

 

If you have evidence to disprove the above please write below.

 

Until then, there is no point blaming anyone for your predicament!

 

Everything is as it is, and how it should be.

 

Peace.

 

 

 

I think I understand your sentiment about Klaus Schwab and other such bogeymen [insert group or individual of choice] who provide an outlet for externalised blame. In centuries gone by, more ritualisitic scape-goating may have, whilst I am not excusing it, served a purpose in terms of order and group cohesion - but this may come at the expense of looking to oneself and arriving at an individual philosophy and moral compass.

 

While there may be external forces exercising power negatively, the only thing we really have any control over is ourselves, our internal landscape and our conduct. I feel we do have autonomy in that respect. When you say we do not choose our thoughts, this may be partially correct - however, there remains free will as to which thoughts to listen to and which to disregard, and there is choice over how we respond to them.

 

It is those most aware of, and in alignment with, their own internal guidance system with conviction who are the least malleable to those who seek power over others.

 

48 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Someone may say

 

Well Mr H. We don't control our thoughts but we can decide what to do with them.

 

Decisions themselves are thoughts.....and again we circle back that thoughts are not chosen.

 

You took the words out of my mouth! I was typing the above response whilst you were typing yours.

 

So, returning to the point about choosing whether or not to listen to a thought, I still feel there is personal agency. It is possible to observe a thought and then decide to reach for a "better" one. For example, it is probably common after making a mistake to have negative thoughts - but a choice remains to either let yourself spiral into blame and negativity or to appreciate the learning that has come out of the experience.

 

I am now making a concerted effort to create, and reach for, better feeling thoughts. Yes I think we can create thoughts too (alongside the experience you describe where they pop into our mind unannounced) but that it takes discipline and practice. When an undesirable thought appears, it is possible to consider how it can be turned into something more positive and what that would look like. It doesn't have to be a leap all the way from despair to bliss but just an incremental improvement one step at a time - e.g. from despair to anger, from anger to blame, from blame to hope and so on through to optimism, gratitude, passion and joy. There are various emotional scales out there which could be used as a guide if in doubt as to where a particular thought sits.

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@Mitochondrial Eve I haven't worked out how to do multiple quotes yet.

 

You write "the only thing we really have any control over is ourselves, our internal landscape and our conduct"

 

This has an assumption that we are all in agreement as to what we mean when we refer to ourselves. Nearly everyone thinks and feels it is the body mind that is them. Or as David says Ethel at the checkout. I have never found such a person or entity to exist. Nor has David. Nor has a million other explorers prior.

 

You then go on to write "I still feel there is personal agency. It is possible to observe a thought and then decide to reach for a "better" one. For example, it is probably common after making a mistake to have negative thoughts - but a choice remains to either let yourself spiral into blame and negativity or to appreciate the learning that has come out of the experience."

 

I feel this too. In fact anger arises if someone tells me otherwise. But let's put my feelings aside and look at facts.

 

What is a decision. What is it's nature? It is another thought. Do we control our thoughts? No. If another decision pops up it's another thought that came to you. You then finally once it's all said and done have a thought which says I chose that thought. In your example your decision to change a negative thought, was just yet another thought that happened to.come to.you.

 

For the apparent entity MR H there is no free will, choice or personal responsibility. The anger Mr H feels when you tell him this, is because Mr H has believed himself to be a separate entity all these years, with society reflecting and confirming for him. The free will he feels is the only real free will that exists, that is for the true I and not the character MR H.

 

Mr H is an enactment an activity of I.

 

 

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I think the only legitimate way of assigning responsibility is....

 

From the separate entity perspective, there is no personal responsibility.

 

From non dual perspective, you are responsible for everything!

 

I have picked the former for discussion purposes.

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8 hours ago, Mr H said:

Thoughts and feelings decide actions, particularly thoughts, which I will stick with for example.

 

Do I choose my thoughts?

 

"Thoughts and feelings decide actions"   Yes there does seem to be a close link here, but what's the process?  I have thoughts about doing something, then after a short delay there's a physical action such as moving my arm and hand to do something. Are all steps in this process observable? Not for me, there's a part of this process where it goes underground (into what we could call the subconscious) before re-emerging into the light of consciousness as observation of the action. 

 

"Do I choose my thoughts?"  Depends what you mean by 'I'. From the pov of the conscious mind, thoughts just seem to appear out of nowhere, yet that does seem unlikely in practice. We have accumulated a huge vocabulary and knowledge of language over our lives that resides somewhere, the dictionary in my mind is invisible until words are drawn out one at a time by some invisible process. 

 

I don't know enough neuro-science to prove the existence of the subconscious, just that it's a theory to explain the deficiencies of what we experience in consciousness which in itself can't explain where thoughts and feelings come from. Unless we believe in magic, something else must be going on which we can't see. 

 

So if in include my subconscious as part of 'I', then in this theory the thought-choosing process is something that occurs behind the veil in the dark side. Although I can't say what that process is yet, until science can detect it. It's a bit like when theoretical physicists postulate the existence of a particle to explain some anomaly in the evidencial data but don't have the equipment to detect it directly yet. 

 

5 hours ago, Mr H said:

From the separate entity perspective, there is no personal responsibility. 

 

In the subconscious theory, there is personal responsibility but it's at least partially in the subconscious. We can see the end results of the process, but not the whole process itself. That means things like self control and impulse control are likewise only partly visible.  I appreciate this isn't terribly helpful in terms of holding people to account for their actions, which we still need to do for practical purposes of having a civilised society. 

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23 hours ago, Mr H said:

@Mitochondrial Eve I haven't worked out how to do multiple quotes yet.

 

No worries. Here is how it works.

 

1) Find the first post you want to quote and select the "quote" option to the bottom left of the post which will bring up the text for you which can be edited down if you only want to quote some and not all of the content (see example above).

2) Type your response to the quoted text beneath the quote box.

3) Press return once or twice to start a new paragraph.

4) Find the next post you want to quote from and select "quote" as per point 1) - this can be the same or different quote from that used first time - for example, you may want to re-quote the same post but respond to a different sentence or paragraph. This will bring up the quoted text in line with where you started your new paragraph.

5) Type your response to the quoted text beneath the quote box.

6) If more quotes are needed, repeat steps 3) to 5).

 

Alternatively, you can use the + button next to 'Quote' which is a multi-quote function. This stores the quotes you select with the + and they should all appear in your reply box. You can then insert your responses where you want around the quote boxes.

 

23 hours ago, Mr H said:

You write "the only thing we really have any control over is ourselves, our internal landscape and our conduct"

 

This has an assumption that we are all in agreement as to what we mean when we refer to ourselves. Nearly everyone thinks and feels it is the body mind that is them. Or as David says Ethel at the checkout. I have never found such a person or entity to exist. Nor has David. Nor has a million other explorers prior.

 

You then go on to write "I still feel there is personal agency. It is possible to observe a thought and then decide to reach for a "better" one. For example, it is probably common after making a mistake to have negative thoughts - but a choice remains to either let yourself spiral into blame and negativity or to appreciate the learning that has come out of the experience."

 

I feel this too. In fact anger arises if someone tells me otherwise. But let's put my feelings aside and look at facts.

 

What is a decision. What is it's nature? It is another thought. Do we control our thoughts? No. If another decision pops up it's another thought that came to you. You then finally once it's all said and done have a thought which says I chose that thought. In your example your decision to change a negative thought, was just yet another thought that happened to.come to.you.

 

For the apparent entity MR H there is no free will, choice or personal responsibility. The anger Mr H feels when you tell him this, is because Mr H has believed himself to be a separate entity all these years, with society reflecting and confirming for him. The free will he feels is the only real free will that exists, that is for the true I and not the character MR H.

 

Mr H is an enactment an activity of I.

 

 

Are we not source energy and, as DI explains it, just here having an experience as Mr H or Eve? We may be programmed to believe the experience as Mr H or Eve is limited - that matter comes with boundaries in order to be defined and definable - but DI may say this is part of the illusion and that we are still infinite and expanded awareness.

 

Do we forget who we are out of choice and is this material existence source choosing to experience all evolving possibilities for good or bad? Or are we at the behest of Archontic entities and trapped within an illusory matrix as some traditions, including the Gnostics, would have us believe? I don't know the answer to this - I am agnostic about most things - and so only see my way forward as trying to make the most of my own sphere and achieve wellbeing.

 

If we are infinite source energy, albeit with perceptually imposed limitations in terms of amnesia and conditioning, surely we still possess original creative potential and, with it, agency and choice? How can we be, on the one hand, infinite source energy which entails all possibility but on the other not possessing personal responsibility?

 

Granted, our material existence appears to be highly paradoxical. It reminds me of the Hermetic principle of polarity, which The Kybalion expounds upon, where everything is considered dual whereby opposites are simply different degrees of the same thing - e.g. cold is the same thing as hot but just at a different degree of temperature and good and evil are also opposing poles of the same thing. This suggests there is no separation and through this "it is possible to change the vibrations of hate to the vibrations of love, in one's mind, and in the minds of others". Applying this to your dilemma, lack of agency must surely, to exist, also have its opposing energy of free will.

 

Regarding changing thoughts, my personal experience is that it is possible to think up (create) a substitute thought in place of one that feels misaligned with where I want to be. This is not a thought I feel has just popped into my mind but is self directed. Perhaps an example would help, albeit this won't be an example personal to me.

 

Imagine a scenario where somebody has ended up in debt and is beating up on themselves for their predicament and in a low emotional and vibrational state.

  • To move into a better feeling state, they could instead choose to feel angry with the company that is chasing them for their debt - anger feels better than guilt and despair and is incrementally not too much of a leap to get to.
  • After feeling angry for a while, they could look for someone to blame - maybe their accountant has made a mistake that has caused their situation or they followed the advice of some "guru" who turned out to be a con artist.
  • From blame, perhaps some hope can be found if thoughts are directed that way. They could hope to find a better accountant or other professionals that can help with the situation such as debt or financial advisors.
  • Above hope could come feeling of empowerment in bringing the situation back under control. Learning has come from the experience and budgets are better managed.
  • This may be stretching it now for some, but perhaps this individual could reach a state of joy in repaying their debt in that it now represents empowerment to them and trusting that the finances are flowing.
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1 hour ago, Mitochondrial Eve said:

 

No worries. Here is how it works.

 

1) Find the first post you want to quote and select the "quote" option to the bottom left of the post which will bring up the text for you which can be edited down if you only want to quote some and not all of the content (see example above).

2) Type your response to the quoted text beneath the quote box.

3) Press return once or twice to start a new paragraph.

4) Find the next post you want to quote from and select "quote" as per point 1) - this can be the same or different quote from that used first time - for example, you may want to re-quote the same post but respond to a different sentence or paragraph. This will bring up the quoted text in line with where you started your new paragraph.

5) Type your response to the quoted text beneath the quote box.

6) If more quotes are needed, repeat steps 3) to 5).

 

Alternatively, you can use the + button next to 'Quote' which is a multi-quote function. This stores the quotes you select with the + and they should all appear in your reply box. You can then insert your responses where you want around the quote boxes.

 

 

Are we not source energy and, as DI explains it, just here having an experience as Mr H or Eve? We may be programmed to believe the experience as Mr H or Eve is limited - that matter comes with boundaries in order to be defined and definable - but DI may say this is part of the illusion and that we are still infinite and expanded awareness.

 

Do we forget who we are out of choice and is this material existence source choosing to experience all evolving possibilities for good or bad? Or are we at the behest of Archontic entities and trapped within an illusory matrix as some traditions, including the Gnostics, would have us believe? I don't know the answer to this - I am agnostic about most things - and so only see my way forward as trying to make the most of my own sphere and achieve wellbeing.

 

If we are infinite source energy, albeit with perceptually imposed limitations in terms of amnesia and conditioning, surely we still possess original creative potential and, with it, agency and choice? How can we be, on the one hand, infinite source energy which entails all possibility but on the other not possessing personal responsibility?

 

Granted, our material existence appears to be highly paradoxical. It reminds me of the Hermetic principle of polarity, which The Kybalion expounds upon, where everything is considered dual whereby opposites are simply different degrees of the same thing - e.g. cold is the same thing as hot but just at a different degree of temperature and good and evil are also opposing poles of the same thing. This suggests there is no separation and through this "it is possible to change the vibrations of hate to the vibrations of love, in one's mind, and in the minds of others". Applying this to your dilemma, lack of agency must surely, to exist, also have its opposing energy of free will.

 

Regarding changing thoughts, my personal experience is that it is possible to think up (create) a substitute thought in place of one that feels misaligned with where I want to be. This is not a thought I feel has just popped into my mind but is self directed. Perhaps an example would help, albeit this won't be an example personal to me.

 

Imagine a scenario where somebody has ended up in debt and is beating up on themselves for their predicament and in a low emotional and vibrational state.

  • To move into a better feeling state, they could instead choose to feel angry with the company that is chasing them for their debt - anger feels better than guilt and despair and is incrementally not too much of a leap to get to.
  • After feeling angry for a while, they could look for someone to blame - maybe their accountant has made a mistake that has caused their situation or they followed the advice of some "guru" who turned out to be a con artist.
  • From blame, perhaps some hope can be found if thoughts are directed that way. They could hope to find a better accountant or other professionals that can help with the situation such as debt or financial advisors.
  • Above hope could come feeling of empowerment in bringing the situation back under control. Learning has come from the experience and budgets are better managed.
  • This may be stretching it now for some, but perhaps this individual could reach a state of joy in repaying their debt in that it now represents empowerment to them and trusting that the finances are flowing.

Thanks Eve. Saved me explaining it!

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Great topic. I think there is a lot of truth in what you say @Mr H and certainly there are varying degrees of how much (if any) personal responsibility a person has over their life or within this 'Matrix'. Certainly for those who have not healed their trauma, or having an out of control shadow/ego, their degree of personal responsibility will be less than someone who has healed and who perhaps also does much 'internal work' and much conscious living with tools such as meditation, mindfulness and brutal self-honesty. Obviously, none of those tools make us infallible or perfect, it is always an ongoing process. 

 

However, I can see the change in myself from how I used to be (reactive, living with a great deal of subjective reasoning, letting old beliefs run rampant subconsciously and dictate my thoughts/feelings and actions. The more you heal or the more you raise your level of consciousness/vibration, the more freedom you discover in the thoughts, feelings and actions you have/take. So as an example, something as basic as objectivity over subjectivity has a massive impact on how you live your life. The way to be more objective is to heal and raise your consciousness and as you do so, the more you live objectively for the most part which opens up more intelligence, more balance, and ultimately more choice and freedom. Obviously as a human, there may always be an element of subjectivity, but if I compare myself to how I used to be as an example, I live much more from an objective standpoint than I did years ago. 

 

Obviously the 'elites' target the human mind constantly to keep them in lower levels of consciousness, keep them in fear, keep them viewing the World subjectively and bombard them with distractions to control their perceptions. They want us divided on anything and everything because if they do, they create the subjectivity, the biases, the polarities and the tribalism that keeps feeding the subjective reactions. If you have ever followed football for example, you can see how clearly this plays out and how 'reactive' football fans become about their club, or their perceived 'rivals'. I have witnessed normal 'intelligent' people reduced to blubbering and quivering toddlers as they lose all objective reasoning as the biased beliefs kick in or are mobilised. They target all this  because ultimately the 'elite' DO know that human beings CAN be free from all that control. It is a battle of consciousness, and the more you raise yours, the more you become a fearless warrior who has greater control over all aspects of your reality; thoughts, feelings, actions and thus the 'life' you create. 

On 4/13/2024 at 6:28 PM, Mitochondrial Eve said:

While there may be external forces exercising power negatively, the only thing we really have any control over is ourselves, our internal landscape and our conduct. I feel we do have autonomy in that respect. When you say we do not choose our thoughts, this may be partially correct - however, there remains free will as to which thoughts to listen to and which to disregard, and there is choice over how we respond to them.

 

I agree. Obviously we are all a 'work in progress' but there are many times that I now catch myself in a thought or feeling, and am able to catch it, question if it is real or faulty, and then choose to change it or let it continue. The more you work on yourself, the more 'space' is created between a thought/feeling in which you can bring in many other alternative thoughts or feelings. As an example, I have always been sensitive to others around me, and particularly in how they treat me. In the past I may get 'triggered' by someone treating me like shit, and that could fester for weeks; running over and over on thoughts like 'I am a piece of shit'. Now the reason for this is because that is how I used to think/believe myself to be so outside triggers would mirror internal feelings and thoughts/beliefs. But now if that happens in the present, I am able to take that 'trigger' but have the space to question it all, reframe it, decide to not let it in or decide that they were having a bad day and it wasn't personal, decide I don't care anyway, and perhaps another 10 different alternatives. I catch myself a LOT these days as there is now space between that was never there in the past. 

 

Now, what this 'realm' is and how much actual 'choice' or personal agency we have is open to debate of course. But if I look back at my journey, I can see huge changes and most of it has come from raising my consciousness which came from healing my trauma and beliefs. All this led to greater freedom. I don't believe Maslow was wrong on his hierarchy of needs, nor were the great teachers of levels of consciousness, it fits for my own experiences. 

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This debate relates to the 'there's no free will' proposition.

 

I think there is free will, so I wonder about the motives of those who say that we are basically just robots, in effect, e.g. Robert Sapolsky (Harvard University (BA); Rockefeller University (PhD)). The Ruling Elite want to de-humanise us as part of the transhumanism movement and the move towards a hive mind, IMO

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2398369-why-free-will-doesnt-exist-according-to-robert-sapolsky/

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Grapes
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1 hour ago, Grumpy Grapes said:

This debate relates to the 'there's no free will' proposition.

 

I think there is free will, so I wonder about the motives of those who say that we are basically just robots, in effect, e.g. Robert Sapolsky (Harvard University (BA); Rockefeller University (PhD)). The Ruling Elite want to de-humanise us as part of the transhumanism movement and the move towards a hive mind, IMO

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2398369-why-free-will-doesnt-exist-according-to-robert-sapolsky/

 

I want to bring a topic of palm leaf reading (agastya) from India into this conversation.

This leaves written in Tamil was used for 3,000 years and it's friggin' interesting because.....you provide a thumb print and they will bring you a bundle that says about your life. The way to confirm if it's the right bundle, first they will confirm your parents name, your spouse if any, brothers n sisters name etc. It contains accurate information about how many times you get married. It also tells your previous incarnation, karma, your next incarnation etc. IF this is the case....then our destiny is set from the beginning and do we have any responsibility??

 

There are 16 chapters.


1. General Chapter

General Predictions                               

Bundles corresponding to the fingerprint are selected and it can have a few hundred horoscopes in it.  The person confirms his Personal Leaf when it gives Accurate details  about him -his age, date of birth, marriage details, profession and his family. This is an individual process of Self Confirmation. The specific palm leaf is then selected when all the details match,  the client can go ahead if he wishes to ask further details relating to other directions which are specified in other chapters.

 

2. Chapter

Details on Finances, Family, Education, Eyes and Speech

This chapter deals in detail about the present position of the family and the financial and educational status of the client and also what would be the future in terms of  education and finance- and how to overcome any Financial Stress.  Gives an insight to Future General Health Issues,  and more specific details to client’s Eye and Speech conditions.

 

3. Chapter

Details on brothers, sisters, details on Courage, and Household materials and Ears.

This chapter deals details in regard to the siblings of the client and relationship, understanding and communication between siblings, (affectionate, ill-feeling)  and the reason behind it. Further information about the client’s courage and his assets in regard to his household things. There are also details involving the Client’s present Ear condition and if he has any hearing defects.

 

4. Chapter

Details on Mother, House, Vehicles, Land and Pleasures

Complete present and future details of information related to Increase in wealth and Material Comforts.

 

5. Chapter

Details involving  Progeny                     

Wish to have Children- Reasons for delay, birth and death, or not having children.
Adoption and-Remedial procedures for having children and future lives of the children.

 

6. Chapter

Details on Diseases, Debts, Enemies, Court Cases, and their Remedial procedures.

Reasons for unexpected crisis and the Remedial procedures to be followed to overcome them.

 

7. Chapter

Details on-Time of Marriage (1st marriage), and details regarding the partner, Lagnam, Planetary position of the partner, and future life with the partner.

Reasons for the delay/Time of marriage, Marriage life/ Upcoming problems/ Remedies to overcome the problems in family life.

 

8. Chapter

Details on Life span, Accidents and Dangers to life,

Gives specific information for the Client’s Death (in regard to age, Time, Month Day, Star, Lagnam and Location)

 

9. Chapter

Details on Father, Wealth, Temple Visits, Luck, Confrontations and preaching of Holy men, Charitable deeds.

Gives details about ones Personal Spiritual Life, developement.

 

10. Chapter

Details on Client’s Profession, Future predictions in regard to job, good and bad in profession/ business, Change of place.

Gives details of one’s career development in respect to Job or self employment-encounter of hardships  involved and changes that can occur in the future.

 

11. Chapter

Details regarding Profits in business and 2nd Marriage.

Gives details of Profits in Business and details of 2nd Marriage-name/nature /profession/family background of the future partner.

 

12. Chapter

Details in Expenditure, Foreign Visit, Next Birth and Attainment of Salvation.

Gives details of Overseas Travel for Pleasure and Business,  Expenses and Losses that can be incurred and Attainment of Salvation / Moksha and Details of one of the Future Births.

 

13. Chapter

SANTHI PARIHARAM-Details on Previous birth, and the sins committed during the past, The Remedial measures for getting Rid of the Malefic Effects of the Past sins.

Unique chapter which gives the details of the past Karmic Sins and the negative influences in present life.  The Rishis give us the oppurtunity to read this chapter and know the details to overcome or avoid all Negativity in our life by visiting the Highly Energised Temples related to our Karma.

 

14. Chapter

DEEKSHAI-Details on the “MANTRA” which is specified for the person to overcome his Malefic Effects, and to Overcome Enemies, Litigations, Diseases, Hazards, and other Ill-effects. Rishis recommend Highly effective Personalised Mantras which will be engraved as yantras on copper plates-placed in prayers energised by proper methods as inscribed in the Palm leaf. This personal Talisman when worn helps to give protection  from all negative influences in life.

 

15. Medical Chapter is not available
Health issues can be requested via a Prashna!

OUSHADA-Details on Medicine for Chronic Diseases and the method of taking them.

 

16. DASABUKTI

DASABUKTHI-Details in Regard to the Planetary Position and the Sub Planetary influences at the Specified time when it is read.

 

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I can write this in a very simple and provable manner for those who think we control our thoughts or destiny....

 

 

If you can control your thoughts and are free to think what you wish. Then you would know what your thoughts would be before you thought them.

 

So let's experiment.

 

Please tell me what thought you will think at 6pm tomorrow?

 

( We can do the same with feelings)

 

Thoughts and feelings create actions create destiny.

 

We are at the mercy of the thought Gods!

 

The thoughts control us, we do not control thoughts!

 

Even decisions are just more thoughts. Whos to say when a deciding thought will pop up? 

 

It's quite a bitter pill to swallow........

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8 hours ago, Grumpy Grapes said:

This debate relates to the 'there's no free will' proposition.

 

I think there is free will, so I wonder about the motives of those who say that we are basically just robots, in effect, e.g. Robert Sapolsky (Harvard University (BA); Rockefeller University (PhD)). The Ruling Elite want to de-humanise us as part of the transhumanism movement and the move towards a hive mind, IMO

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2398369-why-free-will-doesnt-exist-according-to-robert-sapolsky/

 

 

 

To me, 'no free will' is synonymous to 'Fate.'

 

Many people will tell me that they believe in Fate, yet ask any one of them to cross a busy road with their eyes shut and they will refuse, looking at you as if you are stupid! Yet, surely a true believer in Fate would have no resistance to such a request, because they believe that it's Fate alone that will determine the outcome.

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Thoughts are only one aspect of the whole though. Let us take an example of 'intent'; let us say that you make the intention that you will move away from the 'Matrix' and intend to move off-grid and away from the system. Yes, you will have many millions of thoughts over the next few years, but it is the actions that will define whether you succeed with that intention, not only thoughts. 

 

Thoughts are inevitable as we go about our day and come into contact with others, or other stimulation/distractions, but it is possible to wander off track into those, but then use focus again to get back on track and take actions towards your main goal/objective. We do this all the time as we say work, lose focus and drift in to daydreaming, but then bring ourselves back. Yes thoughts may be quite random at times, but actions are the thing that define life. Obviously there is truth to 'energy flows where attention goes', but it is possible to control what matters most. 

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In saying all that though, I do wonder how much of my life has been my choices, or a pre-determined script from the computer simulation already decided. Even the change in directions I have made in life, were they really my decision, or were they simply already pre-determined to happen? Here I am thinking I have 'changed' when in reality, the path was already decided for me. At times, I believe this is not only possible, but probably inevitable, and then at others I do believe that we have some choice/free will here. 

 

Anyone who has watched Jason Breshears (Archaix) will be familiar with his idea of 'breaking pattern' - doing something completely different to your normal pattern that the construct sits up and takes notice of. 

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2 hours ago, Mr H said:

I can write this in a very simple and provable manner for those who think we control our thoughts or destiny....

 

 

If you can control your thoughts and are free to think what you wish. Then you would know what your thoughts would be before you thought them.

 

So let's experiment.

 

Please tell me what thought you will think at 6pm tomorrow?

 

( We can do the same with feelings)

 

Thoughts and feelings create actions create destiny.

 

We are at the mercy of the thought Gods!

 

The thoughts control us, we do not control thoughts!

 

Even decisions are just more thoughts. Whos to say when a deciding thought will pop up? 

 

It's quite a bitter pill to swallow........

 

Who, or what, are "the thought Gods"? I regard myself as one. 

 

At 6pm I'll be thinking "I must turn off my alarm", providing I remember to set the alarm. 

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Haha...the only "choices" are to Be Real, or to IMAGINE(more properly: fantasize) to be not-real.

 

Is there a "real" choice there?

 

Oh my, that must mean we're slaves.......or so we maybe "thought" we might be, for a minute....and then dreamed a dream of enslavement and limitation and death...and "evil"....

 

GOD is such a tyrant! Hahaha...IT COMPRISES REALITY...and won't change or alter ITSELF...but IT won't restrict us from exploring The Dead Zone in our imagination...the nothing and nowhere zone...WHERE NOTHING LASTS and everything is a lie. (they don't like to hear that)

 

But...it's fun! Until it's not!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Break On Through? Back to the Other Side?

infinitelove.jpg

Edited by novymir
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10 hours ago, Mr H said:

I can write this in a very simple and provable manner for those who think we control our thoughts or destiny....

 

 

If you can control your thoughts and are free to think what you wish. Then you would know what your thoughts would be before you thought them.

 

So let's experiment.

 

Please tell me what thought you will think at 6pm tomorrow?

 

( We can do the same with feelings)

 

Thoughts and feelings create actions create destiny.

 

We are at the mercy of the thought Gods!

 

The thoughts control us, we do not control thoughts!

 

Even decisions are just more thoughts. Whos to say when a deciding thought will pop up? 

 

It's quite a bitter pill to swallow........

 

There's a lot of pronouns to describe all this; I, you, we etc. Is that just a use of grammar, or do you think there is a self which has these thoughts, feelings, God's mercy etc? 

If there isn't a separate self, there can still be responsibility and freedom but which belongs to an impersonal mind-body-environment rather than a self. 

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On 4/15/2024 at 3:02 AM, novymir said:

Haha...the only "choices" are to Be Real, or to IMAGINE(more properly: fantasize) to be not-real.

 

Is there a "real" choice there?

 

Oh my, that must mean we're slaves.......or so we maybe "thought" we might be, for a minute....and then dreamed a dream of enslavement and limitation and death...and "evil"....

 

GOD is such a tyrant! Hahaha...IT COMPRISES REALITY...and won't change or alter ITSELF...but IT won't restrict us from exploring The Dead Zone in our imagination...the nothing and nowhere zone...WHERE NOTHING LASTS and everything is a lie. (they don't like to hear that)

 

But...it's fun! Until it's not!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Break On Through? Back to the Other Side?

infinitelove.jpg

This is my conclusion.

 

The only real choice we have is to abide as truth, in my language I call that God. Or we can continue this silly nonsense and pretend we're this and we're that. What most people think they are is actually virtually nothing. Vapour ware. Simple thought and emotional energetic forms of which they are not the author.

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On 4/13/2024 at 11:25 AM, Grumpy Grapes said:

Can you define "personal responsibility" please. 

Sure. It is the ability for a separate entity to respond a new to something.

 

Comes from old latin respondarire to promise anew.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/13/2024 at 4:31 PM, Campion said:

 

"Thoughts and feelings decide actions"   Yes there does seem to be a close link here, but what's the process?  I have thoughts about doing something, then after a short delay there's a physical action such as moving my arm and hand to do something. Are all steps in this process observable? Not for me, there's a part of this process where it goes underground (into what we could call the subconscious) before re-emerging into the light of consciousness as observation of the action. 

 

"Do I choose my thoughts?"  Depends what you mean by 'I'. From the pov of the conscious mind, thoughts just seem to appear out of nowhere, yet that does seem unlikely in practice. We have accumulated a huge vocabulary and knowledge of language over our lives that resides somewhere, the dictionary in my mind is invisible until words are drawn out one at a time by some invisible process. 

 

I don't know enough neuro-science to prove the existence of the subconscious, just that it's a theory to explain the deficiencies of what we experience in consciousness which in itself can't explain where thoughts and feelings come from. Unless we believe in magic, something else must be going on which we can't see. 

 

So if in include my subconscious as part of 'I', then in this theory the thought-choosing process is something that occurs behind the veil in the dark side. Although I can't say what that process is yet, until science can detect it. It's a bit like when theoretical physicists postulate the existence of a particle to explain some anomaly in the evidencial data but don't have the equipment to detect it directly yet. 

 

 

In the subconscious theory, there is personal responsibility but it's at least partially in the subconscious. We can see the end results of the process, but not the whole process itself. That means things like self control and impulse control are likewise only partly visible.  I appreciate this isn't terribly helpful in terms of holding people to account for their actions, which we still need to do for practical purposes of having a civilised society. 

 

1. About subconscious.

 

This really supports my point. Because "you" think you are this person doing stuff.

 

Even without going into the minutia of the mentation process. We can all see you do not have responsibility straight off the bat of 99% of your actions.

 

You do not control your heart, breath, even scientists will say most thoughts and actions are subconscious.

 

So what in earth makes anyone think you control the 1%? Conscious thought.

 

It's exactly the same as all the other automated processes. We don't author it.

 

It's all happenings.

 

We observe.

 

Thought claims I did it! Lolz...

 

You will be waiting a looong time for science to figure out where thoughts come from. They start with false premises to begin with that it's (consciousness )produced by the brain somehow, where as evidence suggests consciousness produces the illusion of a brain. That is our every day experience 

Edited by Mr H
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On 4/14/2024 at 9:31 AM, Mitochondrial Eve said:

 

 

 

If we are infinite source energy, albeit with perceptually imposed limitations in terms of amnesia and conditioning, surely we still possess original creative potential and, with it, agency and choice? How can we be, on the one hand, infinite source energy which entails all possibility but on the other not possessing personal responsibility?

 

 

Yes what I am saying is paradoxical. And may only seem like a small shift.

 

I completely agree with the assessment. The post is for those who believe they are a limited human. And as this limited human you are controlling the outcomes. The human experiencer has no such control. And we can conduct experiments to prove this.

 

The human is the activity of you. It is not you. The real you has unlimited choice and freedom and responsibility. 

 

With your example of getting out of debt.

 

As a human experiencer you do not get to choose how you respond to the situation. Deciding thoughts are merely another thought in the stream of thoughts. Humans cannot author thoughts. But it does seem that way. And we certainly like to take the bow. We can all check this out. 

 

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