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12 Step Recovery Program in David Icke's works


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I am not sure this is a topic, but a question.  Does anyone know what David Icke's views on the AA 12 Step recovery program are.  I am currently studying David Icke's works for the last almost 3 years now and my mind is now wide open, and naivete is pretty much gone.  I have friends in the 12 Step program and it is helping them greatly, and they exhibit a nonjudging open mind.  Thanks for any comments about this in advance.  

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On 2/26/2024 at 12:16 PM, WaveParticle said:

I am not sure this is a topic, but a question.  Does anyone know what David Icke's views on the AA 12 Step recovery program are.  I am currently studying David Icke's works for the last almost 3 years now and my mind is now wide open, and naivete is pretty much gone.  I have friends in the 12 Step program and it is helping them greatly, and they exhibit a nonjudging open mind.  Thanks for any comments about this in advance.  

The AA 12 step program is based on Christian values. They say you don't have to be Christian but... they do have to recognise a higher power, God, to get through the steps, and it is designed around becoming Christian.

 

A friend of mine tried it but it was heavy on Christian values so he left. He did stop drinking another way and went to therapy.

 

Obviously no one can speak for David Icke but we can know from his books that the material in his books is not in alignment with mainstream religion. 

 

One thing you might want to consider is that what appears as a 'non judging open mind' can be a common recruiting tool for cults, including Christians. They even use the phrase "open mind" in the AA recruiting literature. They will say all the right things but they can use that to lovebomb/friendshipbomb you while trying to find out your views and 'mirror' you until they think you're committed.

 

The way I see it if people want to do AA and it is helping them that is their choice. People have to live their own lives, but they should do it with their eyes open. To be fair the AA program is not hiding the fact that you have to worship the Abrahamic God to use it.

 

You could suggest they read The Dream and see where that goes. 

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I know people involved, and I have gone to meetings myself(I've been around; here, there, and lots of places in between) , though I'm not an "addict" or "alcoholic". And I can say it's bullshit that anyone "has to worship the Abrahamic God" to use it.

 

And also, the so-called "Christian values" that might be a part of it are nothing that any honest and considerate person would try to name as being "evil" or manipulative in an "evil" way. They're just general principles, like The Golden Rule.

 

Honesty is like rule number 1.   Starting with self-honestly.

 

Actually the whole thing is about expanding awareness and learning of the self-defeating, and self-limiting programs(liabilities) that have been operating within their mind and reducing the effect of those and increasing the effects of those characteristics that are assets.

 

People can use it and take it anyway they want. The only "requirement" for membership is an honest desire to stop using whatever they're using that is part of a fucked up and unmanageable life. 

 

And I'm not going to argue or debate about it.

 

It's just kind of funny how some people will basically say it's "such and such", and "this and that", and those things that they suggest just happen to cast a shadow of doubt and bias against the subject, which is just reflective of their own inner bias which is based on their personal worldview and limited hearsay.

 

Actually it's one of the few groupings of people that isn't co-opted. Though agents are in it, and do try to subvert things here and there, it's like that everywhere, including this forum.

 

 

 

 

The truth is this program can end up saving people from dying before they have enough awareness to avoid falling into "The Trap", and facilitate the chance of gaining that awareness. It's not the only way, but it's one proven to work as advertised for many people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by novymir
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9 hours ago, novymir said:

I know people involved, and I have gone to meetings myself(I've been around; here, there, and lots of places in between) , though I'm not an "addict" or "alcoholic". And I can say it's bullshit that anyone "has to worship the Abrahamic God" to use it.

 

And also, the so-called "Christian values" that might be a part of it are nothing that any honest and considerate person would try to name as being "evil" or manipulative in an "evil" way. They're just general principles, like The Golden Rule.

 

Honesty is like rule number 1.   Starting with self-honestly.

 

Actually the whole thing is about expanding awareness and learning of the self-defeating, and self-limiting programs(liabilities) that have been operating within their mind and reducing the effect of those and increasing the effects of those characteristics that are assets.

 

People can use it and take it anyway they want. The only "requirement" for membership is an honest desire to stop using whatever they're using that is part of a fucked up and unmanageable life. 

 

And I'm not going to argue or debate about it.

 

It's just kind of funny how some people will basically say it's "such and such", and "this and that", and those things that they suggest just happen to cast a shadow of doubt and bias against the subject, which is just reflective of their own inner bias which is based on their personal worldview and limited hearsay.

 

Actually it's one of the few groupings of people that isn't co-opted. Though agents are in it, and do try to subvert things here and there, it's like that everywhere, including this forum.

 

 

 

 

The truth is this program can end up saving people from dying before they have enough awareness to avoid falling into "The Trap", and facilitate the chance of gaining that awareness. It's not the only way, but it's one proven to work as advertised for many people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, do you ever even check something before thinking you know all about it? 

 

You are completely wrong about AA.

 

The AA IS Christian values, there's no "might be" about it. 

Step 3 in the AA 12 steps says, "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."

Steps 5-7 reads, "Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings."

Step 11 says, "Sought through PRAYER and meditation to improve our conscious contact with GOD as we understood HIM, praying only for knowledge of HIS WILL for us and the power to carry that out.".

 

So explain how an atheist can go through the AA 12 Step Program?????

 

Literally the two men who started it, and the third who helped them were all Christian and evangelists. And when they refer to GOD, HIM and GOD'S WILL they do mean the Abrahamic God of the Bible!!!!

You admitting you went to AA meetings but you're not an addict is just disrespectful to others. Although from the fact that you obviously don't know what you're talking about it sounds like you're making it up that you went to meeting just as spectator of people who are suffering, or as you put it have "f**ked up lives"..🙄

 

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14 minutes ago, Phil26 said:

Seriously, do you ever even check something before thinking you know all about it? 

 

You are completely wrong about AA.

 

The AA IS Christian values, there's no "might be" about it. 

Step 3 in the AA 12 steps says, "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."

Steps 5-7 reads, "Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings."

Step 11 says, "Sought through PRAYER and meditation to improve our conscious contact with GOD as we understood HIM, praying only for knowledge of HIS WILL for us and the power to carry that out.".

 

So explain how an atheist can go through the AA 12 Step Program?????

 

Literally the two men who started it, and the third who helped them were all Christian and evangelists. And when they refer to GOD, HIM and GOD'S WILL they do mean the Abrahamic God of the Bible!!!!

 

You admitting you went to AA meetings but you're not an addict is just disrespectful to others. Although from the fact that you obviously don't know what you're talking about it sounds like you're making it up that you went to meeting just as spectator of people who are suffering, or as you put it have "f**ked up lives"..🙄

 

Wow! in my opinion you are full of shit!

 

PROJECTOR EXTRORDINAIRE!

 

Here's an interesting idea...suppose a super-narcissist got the brilliant idea to study all up on "narcissism",, learn all about it inside and out...just so he could know the ins and out, the signs to avoid and cover for, to have a full and ready defense already set up if he was unmasked, ,, and use frequent accusations against others to look like an expert and also pretend he hates "narcissism" and DEFLECT attention away from his own behavior and project it onto others. WOW! WHAT A BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

 

Hahaha!

 

 

Hahahaha!

 

 

All I know about them is they are obsessed with "me, me, me, me, fuck everyone else, it's about me, me, me, see how great I am! Blablablabla...."Hey, cmere, I'll stroke your ego if you'll stroke mine,,,,until I decide to stab you in the back..."

 

Hahaha...you're a GENIUS! A veritable genius!

 

And ...I'm such a know-nothing low life right? That's what your master has told me....but your master is a pipsqueek, a artifically intelligent blowhard bully....

Can't hurt me.

 

Can't hurt me.

 

Can't hurt me.

 

Hahaha! That's about how "serious" I take you.

 

Of course, then you'll say:  "it's you!"(me).

 

Yeah, yeah, whatever you say, you're always right....no matter what,,, you're always right!

Okay?

You're ALWAYS RIGHT..OKAY? No matter what! You're ALWAYS RIGHT!

And I won't forget it...

 

You wouldn't cry now would you?

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, novymir said:

Simply put you're either willingly ignorant of how people recruit people into religion or you know you're trying to trick others.

 

It's not about the meaning of one word! It is about WHOLE PRACTICES within the context of the group.

 

The AA, like the Alpha group network, and indeed other religions/cults who are trying to recruit members, such as Scientology, do not explicitly say so in their literature etc. as obviously that defeats the purpose. 🙄

 

In fact Scientology explicitly says anyone of any religion can join (but their practices conflict with this), and the Freemasons use the same tactic. They say anyone can join, but then It's a different matter once they think people are committed to them. Quakers do this too. To be fair so do many others.

 

Another tactic for religious/cult recruitment is ADDICTION. They offer help to vulnerable people who then feel grateful to the group and conform to the group beliefs. What is going on is they (AA etc.) replace the addiction with the religious compulsive behaviour.

 

Here is the link to the way Scientology offers addiction help like the AA does.

https://www.scientology.org.uk/how-we-help/narconon/

 

I'm not saying that any of these people don't have good intentions, and there are good and bad people in any group, but the religion and group will always be put before the individuals treatment needs and that can compromise their recovery from addiction. I've seen many people fall back into addiction once they left the religion/cult.

 

All these groups say that "it doesn't matter what your beliefs are" because if they told you explicitly they want to  recruit you it would put people off using them - nobody wants the hard sell!!

 

I know many people in real life, and you can read many experiences of people online, where they went to AA and at first it wasn't explicitly Christian but when it got down to it they were approached by one person who would then want to discuss faith with them, ask if they owned a Bible (offered a free one) and this only came on fully usually between Steps 3 onwards.

 

I also know that Alpha groups are recommending people go to AA if people mention addiction. Also there are people at AA who also run Alpha groups (Christian recruitment groups). Also Alpha, including their website, also says you can be an atheist (or any faith) to go along to their meetings.

https://alpha.org.uk/

 

The psychology of cult recruitment is always the same and it always starts with them hiding their motivation to recruit members. So you posting a link to a page from AA doing exactly that, trying to sound impartial when they are not, only goes to prove that their strategy is covert recruitment.

 

It's exactly the same dishonesty that has always been used by cults everywhere. 

 

Also Christians will tell you that "everyone is Christian under God". This means the AA while not explicitly a church they consider themselves a group of people "joined together as (sinful) sufferers" UNDER GOD (HIM the God of the Bible. Their CHURCH is their group.

 

It is very interesting that you are trying to cover up any potential religious recruitment behaviour at the AA. Why are you so invested? You are acting like some obsessed cult member who feels threatened if people have all information available to them before getting involved with something.

 

I want people to decide for themselves with full knowledge of the what they are getting into.

 

You, on the other hand, are deliberately trying to mislead people and stop them from hearing ALL SIDES of the argument. Your behaviour is typically what you see in people biased in favour of a group/religion/cult.

 

I have known a few people who had good things to say about AA, but they were Christians already, but I have heard not so good things from more people, especially about pressure to conform to CHRISTIAN VALUES. Christians don't walk up to you and give you a member badge 🙄, they simply persuade you to "live like a Christian", which is in fact being a Christian! 

 

I know a divorced guy who had sexual orientation problems. He had been been unhappily married for over ten years, obviously due to his sexual orientation doubts his marriage ended. He turned to drinking, which was always something he leaned on, but it got out of hand, so he went to AA. Next he was spouting the Bible and saying he felt "guilty" a lot. After talking to him for a bit he explained that at AA his sexual orientation doubts had come up and they told him that they don't hate homosexuals it's just that "it's sinful". They told him it would badly affect his relationship with God (which is essential to the 12 step PROGRAM) and stop his healing. He said there were some others there not comfortable with this but they kept quiet.

 

As a qualified professional I have treated many people who have addiction issues. I have heard the same things about the AA from many different people.

 

People should be allowed to make their choice about whether it not to use AA with the truth in front of them.

 

Somewhere along the way in your life (your parents didn't listen to you) you learned that throwing a tantrum will get people to listen to you, in fact they weren't listening (which you knew) - you were using intimidating behaviour just to get their ATTENTION, so now you incorrectly equate ATTENTION with being listened to. It certainly explains why in your comments you repeatedly say you "are not posting this... for anyone to respond to...". You are avoiding rejection of your comments by saying "hey, I don't care what you think..." in advance of anyone saying anything to you. It's a common coping mechanism in a person like yourself who is avoiding rejection as they are hyper sensitive to it from childhood. Also if you receive any response that is an opinion different to yours you perceive that as rejection of YOU. What we commonly see in people with those problems is that they then get angry, become violent, verbally aggressive and throw tantrums, smash things, scream and shout. You see that pattern in children, young adults etc. And of course in adults if they become isolated in adulthood as they didn't learn how to cope with rejection (which is a normal part of life).

 

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On 2/26/2024 at 12:16 PM, WaveParticle said:

I am not sure this is a topic, but a question.  Does anyone know what David Icke's views on the AA 12 Step recovery program are.  I am currently studying David Icke's works for the last almost 3 years now and my mind is now wide open, and naivete is pretty much gone.  I have friends in the 12 Step program and it is helping them greatly, and they exhibit a nonjudging open mind.  Thanks for any comments about this in advance.  

 

The AA is Christian in nature. It was founded by Christians and requires surrender to the God of the Bible.

https://www.alcoholproblemsandsolutions.org/aa-is-religious-what-you-need-to-know-about-alcoholics-anonymous/

 

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9 hours ago, novymir said:

 

You should read this.

AA is a religious group according to the LAW

"AA is religious. Court cases repeatedly find that Alcoholics Anonymous is religious in nature. As a result, no agent of government may legally require anyone to attend AA. 

The AA is Based on Religion
Founders of AA were members of a Protestant Christian movement. It was the Oxford Group. Its members “practiced absolute surrender, guidance by the Holy Spirit, sharing in fellowship, life changing faith, and prayer. They aimed for absolute standards of Love, Purity, Honesty, and Unselfishness, which later became an integral part of A.A.”.

 

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Whatever you say Phil26...you're right....you're always right, no matter what!

 

Even if I stop reading anything of what you say after a few words or 2 or 3 sentences, I know,  no matter what, you're always right!

 

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3 hours ago, novymir said:

 

 

Whatever you say Phil26...you're right....you're always right, no matter what!

 

Even if I stop reading anything of what you say after a few words or 2 or 3 sentences, I know,  no matter what, you're always right!

 

It's ok for you to admit you were wrong. But there was a discussion you have missed out on. Your choice. :)

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On 3/7/2024 at 12:12 PM, Phil26 said:

It's ok for you to admit you were wrong. But there was a discussion you have missed out on. Your choice. :)

 

Hmmm, it seems I wasn't "wrong" after all.

 

 

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 3/7/2024 at 3:22 PM, Phil26 said:

 

The AA is Christian in nature. It was founded by Christians and requires surrender to the God of the Bible.

https://www.alcoholproblemsandsolutions.org/aa-is-religious-what-you-need-to-know-about-alcoholics-anonymous/

 

And who is the God of the Bible, exactly?

It took me decades to finally figure out by myself that the God of the Old Testament is NOT the same as the God of the New Testament. YHWH is one of the "gods" (plural), a jealous, revengeful and vindictive god which means he is NOT GOD/Source/infinite consciousness/infinite love. 

 

Why would there be anything wrong with "surrendering " oneself to the latter?

 

Edited by Interested
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2 hours ago, Interested said:

And who is the God of the Bible, exactly?

It took me decades to finally figure out by myself that the God of the Old Testament is NOT the same as the God of the New Testament. YHWH is one of the "gods" (plural), a jealous, revengeful and vindictive god which means he is NOT GOD/Source/infinite consciousness/infinite love. 

 

Why would there be anything wrong with "surrendering " oneself to the latter?

 

They apparently can't or won't comprehend the difference.

 

I think he wants to keep playing the Luciferian game. He was a "dualist", and seemed to confuse the oneness of deceit(this illusury thing) with the Oneness of Truth(Reality).

 

They think they'll be giving up their "power" to some fake thing (but that's what this "world' is, and they already did that). They want to imagine themselves as "GOD". 

 

They confuse a part or fragment of THE WHOLE with THE WHOLE.   THE ALL ENCOMPASSING WHOLE OF THE REAL=THE ONE=GOD.

 

They apparently don't know that's how we got into this mess. (and it's not the way out).

 

 

 

ps: Phil26 is gone, he was an agent provocateur, or "troll'.

 

 

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 3/7/2024 at 9:22 AM, Phil26 said:

 

The AA is Christian in nature. It was founded by Christians and requires surrender to the God of the Bible.

https://www.alcoholproblemsandsolutions.org/aa-is-religious-what-you-need-to-know-about-alcoholics-anonymous/

 

It appears that they focus on God in general, as in Higher Power and leave it to the individual to form their own concept of God.  Christianity contains info about God, but it is of course diluted by lower frequency Wetiko, etc.. but when we use our Divine Sparks we over ride the deception program an see All that is, has been, Ever Can Be, God, Infinity Awareness in awareness of Itself, etc.. I try to avoid "contempt prior to investigation" you know what I mean?

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  • 2 months later...
On 3/6/2024 at 11:27 AM, novymir said:

I know people involved, and I have gone to meetings myself(I've been around; here, there, and lots of places in between) , though I'm not an "addict" or "alcoholic". And I can say it's bullshit that anyone "has to worship the Abrahamic God" to use it.

 

And also, the so-called "Christian values" that might be a part of it are nothing that any honest and considerate person would try to name as being "evil" or manipulative in an "evil" way. They're just general principles, like The Golden Rule.

 

Honesty is like rule number 1.   Starting with self-honestly.

 

Actually the whole thing is about expanding awareness and learning of the self-defeating, and self-limiting programs(liabilities) that have been operating within their mind and reducing the effect of those and increasing the effects of those characteristics that are assets.

 

People can use it and take it anyway they want. The only "requirement" for membership is an honest desire to stop using whatever they're using that is part of a fucked up and unmanageable life. 

 

And I'm not going to argue or debate about it.

 

It's just kind of funny how some people will basically say it's "such and such", and "this and that", and those things that they suggest just happen to cast a shadow of doubt and bias against the subject, which is just reflective of their own inner bias which is based on their personal worldview and limited hearsay.

 

Actually it's one of the few groupings of people that isn't co-opted. Though agents are in it, and do try to subvert things here and there, it's like that everywhere, including this forum.

 

 

 

 

The truth is this program can end up saving people from dying before they have enough awareness to avoid falling into "The Trap", and facilitate the chance of gaining that awareness. It's not the only way, but it's one proven to work as advertised for many people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is wonderfully well said.  It resonates with all that I have researched.  Thank you

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