Jump to content

Israel: To Support, Or Not


pi3141

Recommended Posts

27 minutes ago, Campion said:

Ok, so I've been going over in my mind the history of the creation of both Israel and Palestine since 1947. Perhaps others here have a better knowledge than me, and can correct my logic here. 

 

The UN passed resolution 181 in November 1947 called "The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine", and when it was implemented in 1948 it ended the UN/British mandate and set up a two state solution for the two new countries     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine 

 

This shows the borders of the two new countries being proposed, and at the time we can summarise the reaction as the Jewish Israelis accepting the plan, and the Arabs rejecting it. However, since that time both sides have not honoured the borders in practice. 

 

So we've now got a situation where both Israel and Palestine are living within borders that weren't agreed to by the UN or anyone else, and so they've both effectively rejected  the 1947 resolution. Doesn't this rejection mean the resolution is invalidated and we should be going back to square one for deciding how to deal with the territory, eg creating new borders or erasing the borders with a one state solution. Under the authority of a new UN mandate to govern it until a new resolution is passed and accepted by both sides. 

 

agreed.
and since jerusalem is a holy site for 3 religions, would be best if neither christian nor muslim nor jewish controlled those holy areas, jerusalem,dome of the rock, al aqsa, etc..

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, shabbirss said:

 

agreed.
and since jerusalem is a holy site for 3 religions, would be best if neither christian nor muslim nor jewish controlled those holy areas, jerusalem,dome of the rock, al aqsa, etc..

 

 

Yes, one of the maps in wiki calls the Jerusalem area "Planned Corpus separatum with the intention that Jerusalem would be neither Jewish nor Arab". 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, pi3141 said:

Exodus, into the desert and let International Aid be dropped to them.

This is exactly Israel's goal. The Palestinians become completely stateless and Greater Israel begins.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, shabbirss said:

 

agreed.
and since jerusalem is a holy site for 3 religions, would be best if neither christian nor muslim nor jewish controlled those holy areas, jerusalem,dome of the rock, al aqsa, etc..

 

How it would be done I don't know but maybe Jerusalem needs to be a separate autonomous zone. It would resolve the issue but the problem is that regardless of consensus individuals and groups who don't approve will just carry on as usual.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Bombadil said:

How it would be done I don't know but maybe Jerusalem needs to be a separate autonomous zone. It would resolve the issue but the problem is that regardless of consensus individuals and groups who don't approve will just carry on as usual.

 

good point. maybe the UN could secure the areas involved. with checkpoints (the irony) not allowing anyone bearing arms into those areas.

 

"Planned Corpus separatum with the intention that Jerusalem would be neither Jewish nor Arab".

this was probaly the plan in the first place but somehow it got derailed and here we are

Edited by shabbirss
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/19/2024 at 6:21 PM, Bombadil said:

This is exactly Israel's goal. The Palestinians become completely stateless and Greater Israel begins.

 

I didn't mean they can't return.

 

They just need to get out of the Battlefield. 

 

If they stay, which I suspect is what Hamas want, they become combatants and as such will be targets.

 

The death toll of innocents will be huge, again, I assume that's what Hamas want.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, pi3141 said:

 

I didn't mean they can't return.

 

They just need to get out of the Battlefield. 

 

If they stay, which I suspect is what Hamas want, they become combatants and as such will be targets.

 

The death toll of innocents will be huge, again, I assume that's what Hamas want.

 

this is all very diplomatic and sensible things we are hoping for,
dare i say, it is just wishful  thinking.

because

 

-israel does not honor agreements,
- hamas does not honor agreements

 

it is truly mind boggling why the UN does not intervene here - as a neutral 3rd party.
 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, shabbirss said:

this is all very diplomatic and sensible things we are hoping for,
dare i say, it is just wishful  thinking.

because

 

-israel does not honor agreements,
- hamas does not honor agreements

 

it is truly mind boggling why the UN does not intervene here - as a neutral 3rd party. 

 

 

Really the UN should have been in charge of this disaster all along. The British army lost its grip on the situation after WW2 and the mandate was allowed to collapse. Then the UN voted for its partition plan and walked away, leaving the locals to fight it out and the fighting has been grinding on ever since.  Ok they've had the occasional conference and talks between the sides, but neither side has respected the sovereignty of the 1948 borders. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, shabbirss said:

It is truly mind boggling why the UN does not intervene here - as a neutral 3rd party.

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

It seems they are incapable of resolving it themselves, someone should step in.

 

I have a story, I'll post it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In one of my jobs, nearly 20 years ago, I worked with a businessman who was an intelligence operative. Can't remember which agancy exactly, but as an international businessman he was of interest and recruited by, I think, MI5 for various assignments.

 

It was normally just making friends with certain people, offering to set them up with British Education, smooth over any deals they were doing, facilitate visa's etc. This got them 'onside' and bought them further into the sphere of influence of intelligence agancies where they could be compromised.

 

In the 1980's it was discovered there to be a large resovoir of Oil off the coast at Gaza. The Kennedy family and intelligence services were interested in using it to broker a peace deal.

 

If the Palestinians were told of the find, they might come to the peace table to resolve their issue with Israel.

 

The guy I knew was tasked with brokering a deal and corresponded with Palestinians.

 

Unfortunately for him, the Political wind changed, the deal was called off and he was recalled.

 

He knew somethring was up, so he sent his secretary, with documentation by a different return flight to him. On arriving in London he was arrested, searched and questioned for 'fratenising with the enemy' because he had given all the documents to his secretary, they didn't find anything on him. They had to let him go, but they blacklisted him.

 

This was a guy who had held some top jobs with top companies and when I met him, he had orchestrated the release of Betamax for Sony, for instance, on return all the work he could get was temporary jobs from agancies doing menial work.

The pont is, there have been chances of peace out there, but foreign political interests have also played a part.

 

Both Israel and Palestine are a part of the UN so it makes sense for the UN to go in as peacekeepers.

If Palestine had been given access to those reserves they could have rebuilt their country.


If Israel get their hands on it, it would be theft imo.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Rights expert finds ‘reasonable grounds’ genocide is being committed in Gaza

 

Francesca Albanese was speaking at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva, where she presented her latest report, entitled ‘Anatomy of a Genocide’, during an interactive dialogue with Member States.

 

“Following nearly six months of unrelenting Israeli assault on occupied Gaza, it is my solemn duty to report on the worst of what humanity is capable of, and to present my findings,” she said. 

 

“There are reasonable grounds to believe that the threshold indicating the commission of the crime of genocide…has been met.” 

 

Three acts committed 
Citing international law, Ms. Albanese explained that genocide is defined as a specific set of acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. 

“Specifically, Israel has committed three acts of genocide with the requisite intent: causing seriously serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part, and imposing measures intended to prevent birth within the group,” she said.  

 

Furthermore, “the genocide in Gaza is the most extreme stage of a long-standing settler colonial process of erasure of the native Palestinians,” she continued. 

 

Link - https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976

 

 

FFS.

 

This woman is wrong.

 

First off, lets look at the UN convention for Genocide. The lady says 3 of the 5 are credibly fulfilled and hence a case can be made that Israel is committing genocide.

Here they are -

 

Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as:

 

... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:

 

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[7]

 

Ok, so lets look at Boko Haram for instance, killing, wounding and kidnapping females to convert and become wives.

 

Boko Haram are guilty of Acts (a), (b) (d)

 

Hence Boko haram are guilty of Genocide. Is that true? Boko Haram are intent on the Genocide of Christian Nigerians because they satisfy 3 of the 5 clauses?

 

You see, when you don't apply common sense, these things can be misconstrued.

 

The fact is, Hamas are the controlling Medical authority. They took money from somewhere and used it to build tunnels and fortifications under the hospitals they control. They have also done it under schools and residential areas.

 

Then they instigated an atrocity against Israel to provoke a heavy response. Knowing that they have positioned themselves within and behind the people of Palestine, making those people targets.

 

So it is a calculated tactic by Hamas to sacrifice the Palestinian people for their cause.

 

Lets remind ourselves of their cause - 

 

Hamas Charter

Article 7 describes Hamas as "one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders" and claims continuity with the followers of the religious and nationalist hero Izz ad-Din al-Qassam from the Great Arab Revolt as well as the Palestinian combatants of the First Arab-Israeli War. It ends with Sahih al-Bukhari's hadith Muslim 2922, suggesting that the Day of Judgment would not come until the Muslims fight and kill the Jews.[1][46]

Article 8 The Hamas document reiterates the Muslim Brotherhood's slogan of "Allah is its goal, the Prophet is the model, the Qur'an its constitution, jihad its path, and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes."[1][25]

Article 13 There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answer.[1]

Article 14 The liberation of Palestine is the personal duty of every Palestinian.[1]

Article 15 "The day that enemies usurp part of Muslim land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim". It states the history of the Crusades into Muslim lands and says the "Palestinian problem is a religious problem".[1]

Article 22 Makes sweeping claims about Jewish influence and power.[1][47] It specifically claims that the Jews were responsible for instigating multiple revolutions and wars, including the French Revolution, World War I, and the Russian Revolution. It also claims that Jews control the United Nations, and that they are supported by "the imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East".[1]


So clearly, Hamas is after the destruction of Israel and any Jew within it, it see's war as the only solution and death in war as an honour.

 

Hamas IS the Medical authority of Gaza, hence Hamas has built its fortifications deliberately in civilian settings such as hospitals, which it controls, and schools and then it instigated an horrendous attack to draw Israel into killing Palestinian civilians so that some idiot 'Special Rapporteur' will claim Israel is the one committing Genocide, when Hamas are the ones that are using genocide of its own people as a strategy to liberate Palestine for Islam. 

 

Where has this funding come from, did Hamas use ALL the money for Health as medical supplies or did it divert money meant for the hospital and patients to building fortifications and tunnel systems etc?

 

The fact id Hamas have deliberately fortified civilian locations, even hospitals, and put its own civilians in the line of fire as 'barricades' or 'shields' or 'cannon fodder' or 'sacrificial upstanding Muslims dedicated to the cause' 

 

Sorry, but that woman and the UN is Fubar.

 

The woman is deranged, has no clue, and if that's the best the UN can do, then its not fit for purpose.

 

She's misconstrues the facts, seems to have no understanding of the reality of the situation and ends with a personal opinion that Israel has conducted a long standing policy of erasure of the Palestinians. That is personal opinion and has no place in her role in assessing the current situation for the UN.

 

Just my opinion..

 

Edited by pi3141
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Israel's military has pulled out of al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City after a two-week raid that has left most of the major medical complex in ruins.

 

Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry said dozens of bodies have been found and locals said nearby areas were razed.

 

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said it had killed 200 "terrorists", detained hundreds more and found weapons and intelligence "throughout the hospital".

The IDF said it raided al-Shifa because Hamas had regrouped there.

 

The two-week operation saw intense fighting and Israeli air strikes in nearby buildings and the surrounding area.

 

Wards were attacked because Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad operatives were using them as a base, the IDF said, accusing them of fighting inside medical departments, setting off explosives and burning hospital buildings.

 

Images published following the Israeli withdrawal showed Palestinians walking near the charred main buildings with chunks of wall missing and carrying bodies wrapped in blankets. Graphic photos showed corpses partially exposed on the churned ground.

 

The health ministry said dozens of bodies, some decomposed, had been found in and around the medical complex which was now "completely out of service".

 

A doctor told AFP news agency more than 20 bodies had been recovered, some crushed by withdrawing vehicles.

 

A spokesperson for Gaza's Hamas-run civil emergency service said Israeli forces had used bulldozers to dig up the grounds of the complex and exhume buried bodies.

 

The Hamas government media office said Israeli forces had killed 400 Palestinians in al-Shifa and the surrounding area, including a female doctor and her son, who was also a doctor. Israel has not yet commented.

 

The IDF said its troops killed 200 "terrorists" and detained more than 900 people, of whom more than 500 were subsequently found to be affiliated with Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad - which Israel, the UK and other countries proscribe as terrorist organisations.

 

The suspects had been transferred to the intelligence services for further interrogation, it added.

The IDF said "forces found large quantities of weapons, intelligence documents throughout the hospital, encountered terrorists in close-quarters battles and engaged in combat while avoiding harm to the medical staff and patients".

 
 
 

So the Hamas run Hospitals that sheltered Hamas jihadi's, got stormed, Hamas soldiers used the patients and medical staff as shields and then when the fighting is over, the Hamas hospital authority along with the Hamas media authority claim only civilians were present and Israel massacred innocents.

 

Well lets see pictures of the tunnel systems the IDF found there and elsewhere, that will confirm Hamas are using civilian facilities for military operations.

 

Then there's no doubt.

 

That will confirm Hamas are putting civilians on the Battlefield, that indicates Hamas are using its own people as sacrificial lambs to their cause and it is Hamas who are using Genocide as a military tactic.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, pi3141 said:

Well lets see pictures of the tunnel systems the IDF found there and elsewhere, that will confirm Hamas are using civilian facilities for military operations.

 

Then there's no doubt.

 

That will confirm Hamas are putting civilians on the Battlefield, that indicates Hamas are using its own people as sacrificial lambs to their cause and it is Hamas who are using Genocide as a military tactic.

   

I wish I had your confidence that we will get unbiased evidence to make an objective view, but I suspect that both sides will cherry-pick what they tell us. 

 

In any case, Hamas (or most other terrorist groups) wouldn't last very long in a conventional pitched open battlefield against a modern army. The only way they survive is to use guerrilla tactics, hide among civilians, don't wear uniforms etc. I don't like what they're doing any more than you, but if you look at it from their point of view, how else can they oppose Israel's domination of their country without getting walked all over? Like in the West Bank where the Palestinian Authority have taken a more peaceful path, their land is being occupied by Israeli settlements, so it's not a very good role model is it?  What would you suggest the Gazans do to improve their desperate situation?  I wish I had some hope to offer them as an alternative to this horror. 

 

Edited by Campion
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This was recorded 2014 ⬇️

🇮🇱 Israel attacked ambulances, arrested doctors and nurses 1982

🇮🇱 Used 💣 white phosphorus 2008…….

This has been going on for 75 years

 

 

they attack ambulances, doctors, nurses...

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"This has been going on for 75 years."  

 

I was looking up the UN partition plan to check the borders they voted for, which neither the Israelis or Palestinians seem to agree with. As well as the maps it also says "the plan was not implemented." The UN also terminated the British mandate at the same time and effectively walked away from the conflict; on the very next day war broke out when some Arab countries invaded. The UN recognised Israel by admitting them into full UN membership in 1949 but have only been given observer status, with the USA vetoing full membership.   

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine 

 

So yeah it's been going on for 75 years at least, or we could say longer than that if you include the terrorist fighting during the British Mandate. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 this  conflict again all reminds me of That supposed alleged letter to Giuseppe Mazzini

by Albert Pike;

of 3 w,wars  leading to global control , 

The third by taking advantage of political Zionists & leaders of Islamic world where they mutually destroy each other and other  nations constrained to fight to exhaustion ,

and then "we " will unlease the nihilists & atheists and " disoriented multitude receive light of Lucifer brought finally out in public view

 ?(eg see p 297/8 Phantom Self by David Icke etc)

Hope not of course but we live a  psychopathic system 

So these types of Ideas are probably still up and running?

But our own minds/ spirit contain the power to free us 

 

 

Edited by Talorgan
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/12/2024 at 7:06 PM, Ethel said:

I don't see it exactly the same as you because I am aware that those kind of atrocities have also been committed by the Israeli army. And as I see it the only 'sides' are the ones in both countries committing acts of violence. The civilians in both countries are, for the overwhelming majority, innocent civilians.

 

That being said it takes some serious balls to create a thread like this on this forum, given how the land lies on that subject.

No balls, just a shill. Wikipedia : " an accomplice of a confidence trickster or swindler who poses as a genuine customer to entice or encourage others. "

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/12/2024 at 8:16 PM, Ethel said:

 

It was spoken about by Icke in several of his book's that the Israeli army had used civilians as human shields. They have also committed atrocities against children, again these have been detailed in several of Icke's books. I have forgotten the worst of it, thankfully.

 

Both 'sides' have committed atrocities, both are as lost as it's possible to be. Both 'sides' demonstrate fantastically how military and militia are violent and out of control. Even the soldiers of the UK and USA are not above abusing and violating their fellow human beings when it suits them.

When the french defended themselvs from invasion, the french were labelled as heroes. The palestinians do the same, and they are labelled as terrorists

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Talorgan said:

  alleged letter to Giuseppe Mazzini

by Albert Pike;

of 3 w,wars  leading to global control , 3rd by taking advantage of political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic world where they mutually destroy each other and other nations fight to exhaustion and then unleash nihalists and atheists etc

apparently revealed content was   by James Guy Carr's book,Satan,Prince of this World written in 1959 , Canadian naval officer ,

 

 letter -apparently revealed content by James -Guy Carr, Canadian naval officer in book 1959 Satan Prince of this world ,

Edited by Talorgan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, jack121 said:

No balls, just a shill. Wikipedia : " an accomplice of a confidence trickster or swindler who poses as a genuine customer to entice or encourage others. "

 

Proof of your assertion?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, jack121 said:

When the french defended themselvs from invasion, the french were labelled as heroes. The palestinians do the same, and they are labelled as terrorists

 

Um, no. I don't think you really understand the situation at all, the above comment illustrates the fact that ou have a very simplistic grasp of the situation out there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...