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Israel: To Support, Or Not


pi3141

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3 hours ago, pi3141 said:

@Macnamara

 

British Soldiers

From the tone of your lengthy write up it seems you DO think British soldiers would attack civilians and take civilian hostages in the opening attack in a war.

You've described that the UK soldiers were drugged up and committed atrocities in Iraq, so I assume you believe British soldiers would behave in the same way as Hamas, and it seems you make no distinction between British soldiers and Hamas, also you didn't outright deny that British soldiers would commit war crimes.

 

So it seems you have a very low opinion of British soldiers. Well I disagree with that position, I think our soldiers are way different to Hamas terrorist organization, I'm not a military historian but I don't know of any attack by British soldiers that deliberately targeted civilian's in the opening act of a war.

 

Please provide evidence of British soldiers openly attacking and brutalising civilians in the opening of a war theatre, as this was the original question I asked you.

 

So from your replies it seems you support Hamas, their attack on Israel, and you are indifferent to their crimes and aggression towards civilians.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I would say there are many people that are appalled at what Hamas did, but I know there are many extremists that support Hamas and I suppose your one of them. Well I'm not and I think what Hamas did was an atrocity. So we disagree on that.

 

i said none of those things

 

clearly what you are trying to do is deflect away from the tens of thousands of civilians that israel has just murdered by trying to get me to criticise british soldiers

 

you do the same trick elsewhere on the forum where you try and deflect all attention onto christianity

 

i wasn't implying british soldiers were 'drugged up' in iraq, i was implying that they were poisoned by their own government in the form of gulf war syndrome

 

In the US it was said by one of the journalists that broke the watergate story that the US was taken into the iraq war by 'jewish neocons':

Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neocons' in Launching Iraq War

 

In Britain the late politician tam dalyell said that tony blair was surrounded by a 'jewish cabal' that told him to take the Uk into the iraq war:

Anger over Dalyell's 'Jewish cabal' slur

TAM Dalyell, the Father of the House, may be referred to the Commission for Racial Equality after claiming a "Jewish cabal" operating in both the United States and Britain is driving the governments of both countries into a war against Syria.
By The Newsroom
Published 5th May 2003, 01:00 GMT

Eric Moonman, the president of the Zionist Federation in London, has said he believes Mr Dalyell’s remarks constitute a formal offence - and that he is considering a formal complaint to the commission.

Mr Dalyell said that he now expects to be victimised because he raised "a whisper of criticism" about the influence which Jewish advisers hold on Tony Blair, the Prime Minister, and George Bush, the president of the US.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/anger-over-dalyells-jewish-cabal-slur-2513323

 

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3 hours ago, Macnamara said:

I said none of those things

 

clearly what you are trying to do is deflect away from the tens of thousands of civilians that israel has just murdered by trying to get me to criticise british soldiers

 

you do the same trick elsewhere on the forum where you try and deflect all attention onto christianity

 

i wasn't implying british soldiers were 'drugged up' in iraq, i was implying that they were poisoned by their own government in the form of gulf war syndrome

 

In the US it was said by one of the journalists that broke the watergate story that the US was taken into the iraq war by 'jewish neocons':

Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neocons' in Launching Iraq War

 

In Britain the late politician tam dalyell said that tony blair was surrounded by a 'jewish cabal' that told him to take the Uk into the iraq war:

Anger over Dalyell's 'Jewish cabal' slur

TAM Dalyell, the Father of the House, may be referred to the Commission for Racial Equality after claiming a "Jewish cabal" operating in both the United States and Britain is driving the governments of both countries into a war against Syria.
By The Newsroom
Published 5th May 2003, 01:00 GMT

Eric Moonman, the president of the Zionist Federation in London, has said he believes Mr Dalyell’s remarks constitute a formal offence - and that he is considering a formal complaint to the commission.

Mr Dalyell said that he now expects to be victimised because he raised "a whisper of criticism" about the influence which Jewish advisers hold on Tony Blair, the Prime Minister, and George Bush, the president of the US.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/anger-over-dalyells-jewish-cabal-slur-2513323

 

 

Oh lord your confusing, more pages of text, why not just answer yes or no?

 

Do you think British soldiers behave as Hamas did on Oct 7th?

 

Do you support the Hamas indoctrination of children using fake information i.e. Protocols of Elders of Zion?

 

Do you support the Hamas attack against civilians?

 

Start with those, yes or no.

 

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False premises lead to erroneous conclusions.

 

 

It seems that according to the OP, National Socialist Germany and Islam are the ultimate expressions of "evil" and the greatest threat to peace and freedom in the world--past and present.

 

Well,,,isn't that special....and convenient.....?.....

 

 

 

 

david-icke-WE-LIVE-IN-A-SIMULATION-CREATED-BY-A-NON-HUMAN-ENTITY.jpeg

 

 

 

 

I'd be curious of your opinion of Czar Nicholas II...

 

 

 

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it's an old video, from the invasion on iraq - the war on terror where still today no "wmds" were found in iraq!

this video as well as many others were on "liveleak.com" as well as "nw0.info" -  exposing warcrimes, beatings, rape,etc
that were done to iraqis by the soldiers from western countries.

 

not that i have anything against british people..


its the system thats in power which does this - fills us with hate and contempt for each other,
dividing and conquring our minds, in order to retain their power, their authority over all.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, shabbirss said:

it's an old video, from the invasion on iraq - the war on terror where still today no "wmds" were found in iraq!

this video as well as many others were on "liveleak.com" as well as "nw0.info" -  exposing warcrimes, beatings, rape,etc
that were done to iraqis by the soldiers from western countries.

 

not that i have anything against british people..


its the system thats in power which does this - fills us with hate and contempt for each other,
dividing and conquring our minds, in order to retain their power, their authority over all.

 

The pictures are so low resolution and grainy that I'm not sure the victims are children either. Plus the whole thing could be a fake. But yeah either way I take your point that the stress and trauma of war makes soldiers do extreme things they wouldn't otherwise. I daresay the Iraqi soldiers may have done the same to our side. It's dehumanising. 

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On 3/16/2024 at 9:12 PM, shabbirss said:

its the system thats in power which does this - fills us with hate and contempt for each other,

dividing and conquring our minds, in order to retain their power, their authority over all.

 

 

 

This is true and Hamas are controlled by that same system.

 

Hamas ideology divides and creates hate that justifies their actions.

 

If those were British soldiers its likely that a situation arose where they felt that the beating was necessary. Its wrong and pretty unjustifiable but ideology of being right and extreme situations breed this behaviour. 

 

As you correctly state, it's the system.

 

My argument being that 'system' is religion. Or rather the corruption of religion, and Christians, Muslims and Jews are all under the influence of the system. 

 

It's religious ideology that creates the division, fear and control.

 

Again staying with the Iraq war, it was George Bush, a Christian, who lied to the world, mobilized the Christian right to support him and launched an illegal war.

 

It was a Christian who did that because he thought it was justified and it was Christian America that supported the war and Christian soldiers that carried out the killing.

 

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On 3/15/2024 at 4:47 PM, novymir said:

It seems that according to the OP, National Socialist Germany and Islam are the ultimate expressions of "evil" and the greatest threat to peace and freedom in the world--past and present.

 

Well,,,isn't that special....and convenient.....?.....

 

 

 

 

david-icke-WE-LIVE-IN-A-SIMULATION-CREATED-BY-A-NON-HUMAN-ENTITY.jpeg

 

 

 

 

I'd be curious of your opinion of Czar Nicholas II...

 

 

 

 

 

If by OP you mean ‘Opening Post’ then there’s no mention of Nazi.

 

If by OP you mean ‘Opening Poster’ or ‘Original Poster’ then you are making assumptions about me.

 

This means you are trying to divert or detract from the topic with personal attacks.

 

This signals to me that you have lost the argument.

 

You cannot debate the topic, you’ve run out of facts and references and can not formulate a response to address the discussion. Hence you resort to different tactics.

 

I see this with other posters who hold a strong ideology but somehow can’t back it up when called upon to do so and so divert, ramble, accuse anything to not to lose face. But all it means is, you’ve lost the argument.

 

Debate the info, not the poster.

 

Trying to make assertions or accusations on personality, motives or choice of logo, as a means to debate, signals you've run out of arguments, but rather than walk away resort to mud slinging. 

 

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3 hours ago, pi3141 said:

 

This is true and Hamas are controlled by that same system.

 

Hamas ideology divides and creates hate that justifies their actions.

 

If those were British soldiers its likely that a situation arose where they felt that the beating was necessary. Its wrong and pretty unjustifiable but ideology of being right and extreme situations breed this behaviour. 

 

As you correctly state, it's the system.

 

My argument being that 'system' is religion. Or rather the corruption of religion, and Christians, Muslims and Jews are all under the influence of the system. 

 

It's religious ideology that creates the division, fear and control.

 

Again staying with the Iraq war, it was George Bush, a Christian, who lied to the world, mobilized the Christian right to support him and launched an illegal war.

 

It was a Christian who did that because he thought it was justified and it was Christian America that supported the war and Christian soldiers that carried out the killing.

 

 

Where in "The New Testament" is physical war commanded or justified? Where is it that Jesus Christ is a warlord or warmonger? 

 

 

 

To me you're just hiding behind the "all religion is bad" thing(a sweeping generalization), while dupliciously supporting a so-called state that was/is founded upon and has acted upon commands of war, terrorism, and enslavement by their "holy book" and so-called "god".

 

The "New Testament"  speaks of "they who say they are jews but are not", implying that "real" judaism" isn't evil...everything in the "torah" and the "talmud" is representative of what "judaism" is. 

I would suggest that quote is fraudulent, and that it is much more correct to say, "they that say they are Christian, but are not, but are of the synagogue of satan...".

 

What's that mean? that means the so-called court "jews" along with Rome co-opted and took control of a shared revelation of Truth that was spreading, because it was a threat to their worldly system.

 

If one gets the True Christ, they won't be submitting to or doing evil.  If everyone gets the True Christ...this world will evaporate and be no more. And that means the evil and evil ones evaporate with it. Back into the nothingness from which it all came from.

 

Vladimir Lenin said: "The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves!". Damage control. Corruption.

 

The "old testament" is not a "Christian" book, it's a book of what not to believe and how not to be. A book of spells that installs the belief and subservience to an imposter "god" that has no relation to GOD as is taught by Jesus Christ.

 

I don't give a fvck about the "historicity" of any of it, I don't believe it, because it was written by them that Christ called "they are of their father the devil, a liar and murderer from the beginning...".

 

The only thing that matters are the truth of the words and the relevancy with the situation today. The Spirit of Truth is not bound to any one source or person. So how did Truth get in the "New Testament? Why would they allow it if it threatened them? They don't comprehend it, they see it as a lie, as a weakness to exploit, and so does anyone else that has been assimilated by by the fraudulent belief systems of this world.

 

The Cathars and others are representative of "real Christians",  Rome is not.

 

 

 

 

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Torture, Executions, Babies Left To Die, Sexual Abuse… These Are Israel’s Crimes

Why is the same western media obsessively reheating five-month-old allegations against Hamas so reluctant to focus on Israel’s current, horrifying atrocities?

by Jonathan Cook Posted on March 18, 2024

Hostages tortured to death. Parents executed in front of their children. Doctors beaten. Babies murdered. Sexual assault weaponised.

No, not Hamas crimes. This is part of an ever-growing list of documented atrocities committed by Israel in the five months since 7 October – quite separate from the carpet bombing of 2.3 million Palestinians in Gaza and a famine induced by Israel’s obstruction of aid.

Last week, an investigation by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz disclosed that some 27 Palestinians seized off Gaza’s streets over the past five months are known to have died during interrogations inside Israel.

Some were denied medical treatment. But most are likely to have been tortured to death.

Three months ago, a Haaretz editorial warned that Israeli jails “must not become execution facilities for Palestinians”.

Israeli TV channels have been excitedly taking viewers on tours of detention centres, showing the appalling conditions Palestinians are kept in, as well as the psychological and physical abuse they are subjected to.

An Israeli judge recently called the makeshift cages in which Palestinians are held “unsuitable for humans”.

Remember, a large proportion of the 4,000 or so Palestinians taken hostage by Israel since 7 October – probably the vast majority – are civilians, like the men and boys paraded through Gaza’s streets or held in a stadium stripped of clothing before being dragged off to a dark cell in Israel.

 

gaza-palestinians-stripped-israeli-soldi

Women abused

According to Israeli media, many dozens of Palestinian women – including pregnant women – have been seized too, but in their case off camera.

Presumably, Israel has wished to avoid undermining its careful messaging that only Hamas weaponises violence against women.

But according to United Nations legal experts, Palestinian women are suffering the most degrading forms of abuse at the hands of the Israeli military.

The experts observed that Palestinian women and girls in detention were reportedly being subjected to “multiple forms of sexual assault, such as being stripped naked and searched by male Israeli army officers.

“At least two female Palestinian detainees were reportedly raped while others were reportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence.”

Soldiers are also believed to have taken photos of female detainees in degrading circumstances and then uploaded them online.

Palestinian women and girls in Gaza are also reported by their families to have gone missing after contact with the Israeli army.

“There are disturbing reports of at least one female infant forcibly transferred by the Israeli army into Israel, and of children being separated from their parents, whose whereabouts remain unknown,” they said.

Beatings, waterboarding

A separate report by the UN last week revealed that 21 of its staff – humanitarian aid workers – had been snatched by Israel. They were then tortured to extract confessions, most likely false, of involvement in Hamas’ 7 October attack. Their torture included beatings, waterboarding and threats to family members.

Those confessions were cited by western allies as the grounds – in fact, the only known grounds – for cutting off funding to the UN relief agency UNRWA, the last lifeline for Gaza’s starving population. It was these claims, extracted through torture, that helped Israel rationalise its imposing of a famine on Gaza.

Of the 1,000 detainees subsequently released, 29 were children, one as young as six, and 80 women. Some were reported to have cancer and chronic illnesses such as Alzheimer’s.

According to the UN investigation, Palestinians reported severe punishment beatings, being caged with attack dogs, and suffering sexual assault. Physical evidence – such as broken ribs, dislocated shoulders, bite marks, and burns – was still visible many weeks later.

Executions, human shields

These horrors, of course, are not just taking place in cells and interrogation rooms inside Israel. Gaza is being subjected to astonishing levels of brutality and sadism from Israeli troops – quite aside from the carpet bombing and enforced starvation of civilians.

Israeli snipers have fired into Gaza’s hospitals, killing medical staff and patients there.

The Israeli military has used Palestinians as human shields, including one man sent into a hospital, his hands bound, to announce an Israeli order to evacuate the premises. Israeli forces executed him on his return.

Those trying to follow such evacuation orders, waving white flags, have been shot at.

Israel told people inside al-Rantisi children's hospital to evacuate.

They came out waving white flags and then the Israeli military shot at them. pic.twitter.com/JuykyH42jk

— Lowkey (@Lowkey0nline) November 10, 2023

 

Medical facilities have been repeatedly invaded by the Israeli military in stark violation of international law. Those who could not be evacuated, such as premature babies, have been left to die unattended, even while Israeli soldiers were occupying the building.

This week, the BBC interviewed medical staff who reported being tortured, savagely beaten and having attack dogs set on them inside the Nasser hospital in Khan Younis after Israeli soldiers stormed it.

One, Dr Ahmed Abu Sabha, had his hands broken. He told the BBC: “They put me on a chair and it was like a gallows. I heard sounds of ropes, so I thought I was going to be executed.”

At another stage, he and other detainees were beaten in the back of a truck, while only in their underwear. They were taken to a gravel pit, where they were made to kneel blindfolded. They believed they were about to be executed.

During his eight days as hostage, Sabha was never questioned.

Dozens more medics are believed missing, presumed to still be in Israeli detention.

Photographs published by the BBC also show patients in the grounds of Nasser hospital in beds with their hands bound tightly above their heads.

Those who died were left to decompose by Israeli soldiers. A doctor there, Dr Hatim Rabaa, told the BBC: “Patients were screaming, ‘Please remove them [the corpses] from here’. I was telling them, ‘It isn’t in my hands’.”

Other examples of murderous cruelty are documented daily. Unarmed Palestinians, including those waving white flags, have been shot dead by Israeli soldiers. Palestinian parents have been executed in cold blood in front of their children. There have been repeated episodes of Israeli forces gunning down en masse desperate Palestinians trying to reach aid, as happened yet again this week.

Even Israeli hostages trying to escape their captors have been killed by the very Israeli soldiers they were trying to surrender to.

These are just some of the cases of Israeli sadism and barbarity that have surfaced briefly in western media coverage, soon to be forgotten.

Wiping Gaza off the map

The stomach-turning double standards are impossible to ignore.

The western establishment media has been chock full of the most lurid allegations of savagery directed against Hamas, sometimes with little or no supporting evidence. Claims that Hamas beheaded babies or put them in ovens – emblazoned on front pages – were later found to be nonsense.

Accusations against Hamas have been endlessly reheated to paint a picture of a supremely dangerous and bestial militant group, in turn rationalizing the carpet bombing and starvation of Gaza’s population to “eradicate” it as a terrorist organization.

But equally barbarous atrocities committed by Israel – not in the heat of battle, but in cold blood – are treated as unfortunate, isolated incidents that cannot be connected, that paint no picture, that reveal nothing of import about the military that carried them out.

If Hamas’ crimes were so savage and sadistic they still need to be reported months after they took place, why does the establishment media never feel the need to express equal horror and indignation at the acts of cruelty and sadism being inflicted by Israel on Gaza – not five months ago, but right now?

This is part of a pattern of behavior by the western media that leads to only one possible deduction: Israel’s five-month-long attack on Gaza is not being reported. Rather, it is being selectively narrated – and for the most obscene of purposes.

Through consistent and glaring failures in their coverage, establishment media – including supposedly liberal outlets, from the BBC and CNN to the Guardian and New York Times – have smoothed the way for Israel to carry out mass slaughter in Gaza, what the World Court has assessed as plausibly a genocide.

Screenshot-2024-03-16-at-10.09.12.jpg

The role of the media has not been to keep us, their audiences, informed about one of the greatest crimes in living memory. It has been to buy time for US President Joe Biden to keep arming his most useful of client states in the oil-rich Middle East, and to do so without damaging his prospects for re-election in November’s US presidential vote.

If Russian President Vladimir Putin was a madman and a barbarous war criminal for invading Ukraine, as every western media outlet agrees, what does that make Israeli officials, when every one of them supports far worse atrocities in Gaza, directed overwhelmingly at civilians?

And more to the point, what does that make Biden and the US political class for materially backing Israel to the hilt: sending bombs, vetoing demands for a ceasefire at the United Nations, and freezing desperately needed aid?

Worrying about the optics, the president expresses his discomfort, but he carries on helping Israel regardless.

While western politicians and commentators worry about some imaginary existential threat those brief events of five months ago pose to the nuclear-armed state of Israel, Israel is quite literally wiping Gaza off the map day by day, quite undisturbed.

Hamas ‘started it’

There have been two, largely implicit defences for this glaring imbalance in western priorities. Neither stands up to even the most cursory scrutiny.

One is the argument that Hamas “started it” – insinuated in the endless claim that, in destroying Gaza, Israel has been “responding” or “retaliating” to the violence of 7 October.

This is a justification for killing tens of thousands of Palestinians and starving two million more that should never have been let out of the playground. But worse, it is patent nonsense. Hamas did not initiate anything on 7 October, except for handing Israel a pretext to wreck Gaza.

The enclave has been under a crushing siege for 17 years, in which its land, sea and air were patrolled constantly by Israel. Its population was denied the essentials of life. They had no freedom of movement apart from inside their cage.

Long before the current Israeli-induced famine, Israel’s trade restrictions had ensured high levels of malnutrition among Gaza’s children. Most exhibited too the scars of deep psychological trauma from constant and massive attacks by Israel on Gaza.

Biden crows about building a “temporary pier” – weeks or months down the road – to bring aid into Gaza that is desperately needed now. But there is a reason the enclave lacks a seaport and airport. Israel bombed the only airport back in 2001, long before Hamas took charge of Gaza. It has been attacking and killing fishermen trawling just off Gaza’s coast for years.

Israel has refused to allow Gaza to connect to the world – and break free of Israeli control – ever since.

Hamas started nothing on 7 October. It was simply a new, and particularly gruesome phase in what has been decades of Palestinian resistance to Israel’s belligerent occupation of Gaza.

Bogus narrative

The other implicit defense of western establishments constantly stressing Hamas’ barbarism over Israel’s is that the nature of those atrocities is said to be categorically different – in the apples and pears sense.

Hamas supposedly demonstrated a degree of sadism in its killing spree on 7 October inside Israel that marks it out from Israel’s far larger killing spree in Gaza.

That has been the basis for every media interview that requires guests to “condemn” Hamas before they are allowed to express concern about the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza. No one is asked to condemn Israel.

It is the basis too for permitting Israeli spokespeople to claim unchallenged that Israel targets only Hamas, not civilians, even while some three-quarters of Gaza’s dead are women and children.

On the BBC’s evening news last weekend, presenter Clive Myrie made precisely this preposterous assertion as he intoned that since 7 October, “Israel launched a relentless bombing campaign targeting members of Hamas.”

But the latest revelations of the 27 reported deaths in Israeli torture centres and the testimonies of beaten medics from Nasser Hospital confirm how bogus this entire narrative framing by the western media is – one intended to mislead and misinform audiences.

Israel claims it is targeting Hamas, but its actions tell an entirely different story. Famine will kill off the sick and vulnerable long before it does Hamas fighters.

The truth is, Israel is not primarily eradicating Hamas. It is eradicating Gaza. Its crimes are at least as cruel and savage as anything Hamas did on 7 October – and its atrocities have been carried out on a far larger scale and for far longer.

Western establishments and their media have been waging a giant campaign of misdirection for the past five months, as they have against Palestinians over previous years and decades. Western publics have been encouraged to look in the wrong direction

Until that changes, the men, women and children of Gaza will continue to pay the heaviest of prices at the hands of a vengeful, sadistic Israeli military.

Jonathan Cook is the author of three books on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and a winner of the Martha Gellhorn Special Prize for Journalism. His website

and blog can be found at www.jonathan-cook.net. This originally appeared in the Middle East Eye.

https://original.antiwar.com/cook/2024/03/17/torture-executions-babies-left-to-die-sexual-abuse-these-are-israels-crimes/

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6 hours ago, novymir said:

Where in "The New Testament" is physical war commanded or justified? Where is it that Jesus Christ is a warlord or warmonger? 

 

Lux Horus where are you!

 

Jesus has many faces, the meek lamb being just one.

 

6 hours ago, novymir said:

To me you're just hiding behind the "all religion is bad" thing(a sweeping generalization), while dupliciously supporting a so-called state that was/is founded upon and has acted upon commands of war, terrorism, and enslavement by their "holy book" and so-called "god".

 

 

 

Oh I'm not hiding, I'm standing front and centre making the accusation, NOT that ALL religions are bad, I happen to like Buddhism and Quakerism, I even have some affinity for Wahhabism, but I state most religions have been corrupted and mostly used for control by division and fear, in the Western world, that's Christianity.

 

6 hours ago, novymir said:

The "old testament" is not a "Christian" book, it's a book of what not to believe and how not to be. A book of spells that installs the belief and subservience to an imposter "god" that has no relation to GOD as is taught by Jesus Christ.

 

I don't give a fvck about the "historicity" of any of it, I don't believe it, because it was written by them that Christ called "they are of their father the devil, a liar and murderer from the beginning...

 

 

 

That's exactly what I say - why are we arguing about something we both believe?

 

Oh I forgot, you projected and misunderstood what I believe and so made erroneous assertions about me.

 

At least you've calmed down enough to debate me.

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Well half population of Gaza or even more  in state of complete exhaustion  and  at point of unprecedented Accelerating starvation--- Famine which needs immediate international aid and peace,

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Talorgan said:

Well half population of Gaza or even more  in state of complete exhaustion  and  at point of unprecedented Accelerating starvation--- Famine which needs immediate international aid and peace,

 

 

 

 

Understood and agreed.

 

The people need to get out of Rafah.

 

Exodus, into the desert and let International Aid be dropped to them.

 

With the city clear of innocents, Hamas can have their war.

 

But I don't think Hamas will allow that, I think it is Hamas strategy to put as many innocents as they can in the line of fire to trigger International disapproval of Israel.

 

If Israel enters Rafah without the people leaving, it will be Hell in there. 

 

Women and children used as Distractions and shields by Hamas, IDF will have to shoot anything that moves because if they hesitate, they will die. 

 

Lots of innocent Palestinians will be killed and the IDF soldier will go home racked with guilt about pulling the trigger on innocents.

 

Rafah needs to be cleared of civilians. Israel has said they will allow it, but Hamas can't f@ck around, use the pause tactically etc Hamas must just direct the people out of the city, to a safe distance, where International Aid can be taken to them.

 

Urban fighting in a densely populated area where most are innocents caught in cross fire would be a catastrophe, but I suspect that's exactly what Hamas want.

 

War of attrition, sacrifice so many innocents that International sympathy turns to Hamas.

 

Ir doesn’t make sense to me any other way.

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I already stated that I'm not a "debater" nor an arguer. I just state my point of view. And let the chips fall where they may.

I won't allow myself to be limited by "rules" that inhibit my expression. If they are present, and would limit my expression then I simply won't engage.

 

The fact is...if you had a greater awareness...you would not be here doing what you're doing here.

 

You have apparently limited your awareness, and are comfortable in that place, and that's your prerogative, but, others view this website, and may be able to learn something useful for themselves from what I post. That is the primary reason for me being here, it has little to do with the individual posters I engage with, and more with presenting a point of view and a reasoning that may help those that ARE more open-minded and ready to expand their awareness of what this world is and how deceit is used to limit human's awareness. It also helps stiffen the resolve of others that already know these things, because the world is constantly trying to take credit for or refute The Truth.

 

I've already been where you are, I know what it's about...I've moved beyond. That's all it is, it doesn't mean anything else.

 

This is davidicke.com it's amazing to me how many people here have no regard for D.I.'s message about the nature and operations of this world.

I'm not participating in this thread now.

 

 

I know this image can be misinterpreted, but no one can leave this world while holding on to deceit. "No one returns to Reality except through Me, I Am The Way, The Truth and The Life,,, I Am The Truth, and My name is Love".

 

I Am The Real

 

christworld.png

 

 

 

Edited by novymir
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7 hours ago, pi3141 said:

 

With the city clear of innocents, Hamas can have their war.

But I don't think Hamas will allow that, I think it is Hamas strategy to put as many innocents as they can in the line of fire to trigger International disapproval of Israel.

...

 

its very possible that hamas is using this strategy.

they dont give a fck about their own people, all they want is to completely destroy israel, including the innocent people


but lets not forget how IDF soldiers shoot at unarmed civilians too,
-how idf soldiers even shoot at kids throwing stones at their tanks

 

--

 

all good points coming across..
and with all these arguments taking place, a new picture comes to mind...

a picture of the "elites" in religion,politics,banking,business, the "elites" in everything...coming together (the swarm)
- being infected with the desire for more wealth, more power, more control.
- the elites working cleverly to keep the masses divided and controlled by controversial things exactly like this israel vs hamas war...
--


in terms of religion, we have men and women who put themselves between us and our Creator,
telling us how to live, who to hate, who to love, offering their own narratives, their own understandings which corrupt the Divine guidance.
which leads to this divide even further. (my way is the right way, your way is the evil way) - the swarm

---

 

in terms of the middle east, there was bin laden whose family was connected to the bush family - the swarm
there is hamas who is connected to israle but "wants to destroy it" - the swarm

 

dr shiva explains this concept of the swarm very clearly i think...

 

 

 

Edited by shabbirss
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Ok, so I've been going over in my mind the history of the creation of both Israel and Palestine since 1947. Perhaps others here have a better knowledge than me, and can correct my logic here. 

 

The UN passed resolution 181 in November 1947 called "The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine", and when it was implemented in 1948 it ended the UN/British mandate and set up a two state solution for the two new countries     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine 

 

This shows the borders of the two new countries being proposed, and at the time we can summarise the reaction as the Jewish Israelis accepting the plan, and the Arabs rejecting it. However, since that time both sides have not honoured the borders in practice. 

 

So we've now got a situation where both Israel and Palestine are living within borders that weren't agreed to by the UN or anyone else, and so they've both effectively rejected  the 1947 resolution. Doesn't this rejection mean the resolution is invalidated and we should be going back to square one for deciding how to deal with the territory, eg creating new borders or erasing the borders with a one state solution. Under the authority of a new UN mandate to govern it until a new resolution is passed and accepted by both sides. 

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