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Israel: To Support, Or Not


pi3141

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Just now, Interested said:

And there you go again.

 

Sorry, I'm out, not interested in these kinds of games.

 

You won't or can't?

 

If people come on a thread, start insulting, making claims and then refuse to discuss, debate or provide evidence, then those people don't belong on a public Internet debate forum.

 

I

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15 hours ago, Interested said:

but the Israelis simply took over the whole land, raised their flag and declared the country was Israel. And the British and the whole rest of the world simply stood by and watched!!!!

Please do some research, that's the truth.

 

So from the very beginning of the state of Israel (which got recognized by the UN), the Palestinians were left without a place they could call home. From day one they had very little rights and the whole Arab world complained about it. 

 

Really?

 

You said you read history.

 

So nothing happened before 1948 then Britain created the 2 states and the day after Israel claimed the whole of the land and displaced the Palestinians?

 

You can keep your history books, I don't think they are accurate. 

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16 hours ago, Interested said:

( - And then kindly ask this thread to be closed.)

 

Oh you want censorship?

 

Sorry, I don't agree with censorship, I think information should be freely given and I think discussion and debate are healthy. 

 

If I disagree with someone, I don't look to censor them. I simply debate them, that means providing opinions and evidence, some people on here seem to think debating is the same as insulting someone.

 

I'm afraid those people are wrong.

 

I think most Truthers have the same opinion - censorship and suppression of information is wrong.

 

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2 hours ago, shabbirss said:

 

Israel secret service’s warnings were ignored before 7 October attack: Opposition leader

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231219-israel-secret-services-warnings-were-ignored-before-7-october-attack-opposition-leader/

 

 

 

I read it, where did you read that Israel 'allowed' the attack to happen?

 

I didn't come across it in the article.

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by ignoring the intel, they allowed it to happen,
 

its the EXACT same playbook as 9-11.

-there was prior knowledge about the 9-11 attacks

MASTERS OF TERROR (2004)

https://banned.video/watch?id=6618264cf0fe3060652bd948

 

08:00-11:00 - women raped n killed,heads cut off" ... "war time propaganda"

 

Time: 19:00 - 22:00 ish

 

AlexJones keywords: : " the evidence of prior knowledge, our government practically funded the taliban"

-just recently israel allowed hamas to be funded by qatari money. which is what the saudi prince condemed israel for in a public speech.


--

 

 

 

"1:34
all militarily occupied people have a
1:38
right to resist their occupation even
1:41
militarily I do not support the military
1:44
option in Palestine I prefer the other
1:47
option civil Insurrection and
1:50
Disobedience it brought down the British
1:52
Empire in
1:54
India and the Soviet Empire in Eastern
1:57
Europe Israel has overwhelming military
2:01
superiority and we see in front of our
2:04
eyes the devastation and Oblivion it is
2:07
bringing to the people of Gaza I
2:10
categorically de condemn hamas's
2:13
targeting of Civilian targets of any age
2:15
or gender as it is accused of such
2:19
targeting belies hamas's claims to an
2:21
Islamic
2:22
identity there is an Islamic injunction
2:26
against the killing of innocent children
2:27
women and elders the injunction is also
2:31
against the desecration of places of
2:34
worship I also condemn hamas's gifting
2:37
the the higher moral ground to an
2:40
Israeli government that is universally
2:42
shunned even by half of the Israeli
2:45
public as fascist miscreant and
2:49
abhorent I condemn Hamas for giving this
2:52
awful government the excuse to
2:54
ethnically cleanse Gaza of its citizens
2:57
and bombing them to Oblivion
3:00
I condemn Hamas to further undermining
3:02
the Palestinian Authority as Israel has
3:05
been doing I condemn Hamas for
3:08
sabotaging the attempt of Saudi Arabia
3:11
to reach a peaceful resolution to the
3:13
plight of the Palestinian people but
3:16
equally I condemn Israel's
3:18
indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian
3:21
innocent civilians in Gaza and the
3:24
attempt to forcibly drive them into siai
3:27
I condemn Israeli targeted killing
3:30
and the indiscriminate arrest of
3:32
Palestinian children women and men in
3:35
the West Bank two wrongs don't make a
3:39
right I've been hearing a repeated
3:42
phrase in American Media unprovoked
3:45
attack what more provocation is required
3:48
to make it provoked than what Israel has
3:51
done to the Palestinian people for three
3:54
quarters of a
3:55
century I refer you to the article in
3:58
the Middle East Monitor of February 17th
4:01
2014 under the title Israeli army
4:05
veterans admit role in Massacre of
4:07
Palestinians in
4:10
1948 Read It and Weep as I did just this
4:14
year from May to July over 450
4:18
Palestinians were killed including 67
4:21
children this Blood leting must stop I
4:26
condemn Israel's sealing of Palestinian
4:28
lands I condemn Israeli colonists for
4:32
rampaging through houses of worship in
4:34
the AKA mosque in
4:36
Jerusalem I condemn Israel for
4:38
destroying Palestinian homes and Olive
4:41
orchids I condemn Israel for in
4:44
incarcerating Palestinian women children
4:46
and men in concentration camps without
4:49
recourse to due process I condemn
4:52
Israel's targeted killings and
4:54
assassinations of
4:56
Palestinians I condemn Israel for
4:58
funneling gut money to (qatari)
5:01
Hamas the terrorist group as defined by
5:04
Israel I condemn Western politicians for
5:07
shedding tears when Israelis are killed
5:10
by Palestinians but refuse to even
5:13
express sorrow when Israelis kill
5:16
Palestinians there are no heroes in
5:18
these conflicts only
5:21
victims ladies and gentlemen the Arab
5:24
peace initiative is the only viable
5:27
alternative to this blood bath
5:30
Israel should seize it with all that it
5:32
can muster of political economic and
5:35
Military might similar to America's
5:38
Vietnam debacle Israel just suffered its
5:41
own t offensive the North Vietnamese
5:45
only to be upended by the North
5:47
Vietnamese T offensive that led to
5:50
Johnson's not running again and West
5:52
Moran's
5:54
res whether Netanyahu will resign we'll
5:57
have to wait and see thank thank you for
5:59

listening to me

 

---


dots are connecting.

 

there are no heroes in this conflict, just victims'

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, shabbirss said:

If they launch attacks on civilians they are terrorist.   - this is established. - both hamas and israel are terrorists
but
why did the govt of israel allow it to happen?
- they had the intel of this attack before it happened,egypt and others warned israel about it.

 

4 hours ago, shabbirss said:

Israel secret service’s warnings were ignored before 7 October attack: Opposition leader

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231219-israel-secret-services-warnings-were-ignored-before-7-october-attack-opposition-leader/

 

 

 

Just curious, but if Israel had launched a pre-emptive strike against Hamas, bombing hospitals, and civilian areas where Hamas are embedded l, before Hamas attacked - what would you be saying then?

 

Israel were right to launch an attack on civilians if they were in possession of intelligence? 

 

Would you accept Israel claiming a pre-emptive strike to prevent the Palestinians from harming themselves by being forced into a war they did not want, even though they voted for Hamas, would you say it was justified?

 

Would you accept that from Israel?

 

Or would you claim Israeli aggression against a people that hadn't attacked and didn't deserve to be attacked themselves?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

 

Just curious, but if Israel had launched a pre-emptive strike against Hamas, bombing hospitals, and civilian areas where Hamas are embedded l, before Hamas attacked - what would you be saying then?

 

Israel were right to launch an attack on civilians if they were in possession of intelligence? 

 

Would you accept Israel claiming a pre-emptive strike to prevent the Palestinians from harming themselves by being forced into a war they did not want, even though they voted for Hamas, would you say it was justified?

 

Would you accept that from Israel?

 

Or would you claim Israeli aggression against a people that hadn't attacked and didn't deserve to be attacked themselves?

 

 

 

why is everything about me lol

im just pointing out that everything is connected. its not a one sided thing taking place.
 

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24 minutes ago, shabbirss said:

why is everything about me lol

im just pointing out that everything is connected. its not a one sided thing taking place.
 

 

Well thank you, at least you see that, but it seems some on here lay the blame entirely at the Jews feet.

 

I don't like the fact the Palestinians have been displaced, but this has been going on for over 125 years.

 

There are Israeli's there who's parents or grandparents were forced there by Hitler, they were born and raised there, they did not have a choice.

 

What should they do now, just die and save us the inconvenience?

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30 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

Well thank you, at least you see that, but it seems some on here lay the blame entirely at the Jews feet.

 

I don't like the fact the Palestinians have been displaced, but this has been going on for over 125 years.

 

There are Israeli's there who's parents or grandparents were forced there by Hitler, they were born and raised there, they did not have a choice.

 

What should they do now, just die and save us the inconvenience?

 

Supporting Israel and supporting Jews is not the same thing though,
because many Jewish people across the world (many israeli people too) are actually against the Israeli (Zionist) State

 

but it seems some on here lay the blame entirely at the Jews feet.

impossible because many Jewish people across the world are actually against the Israeli (Zionist) State

 

lets look at the finer details now, the peace talks the saudi prince mentioned is where it all went wrong...
just as they were making agreements is when this all began.

somebody does not want a peaceful situation over there

remember yasser arafat? he was agreeable to the 2 state solution but hamas was against that and fought against him.


 

Edited by shabbirss
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8 minutes ago, shabbirss said:

somebody does not want a peaceful situation over there


remember yasser arafat? he was agreeable to the 2 state solution but hamas was against that and fought against him.


 

 

I've tried to say the same thing, but I've been told by Interested and Webtrekker that it crap.

 

I've read originally the Jews wanted to go to Rwanda to create Israel bur it was zealous zionist Jews that wanted Israel in Palestine. 

 

Many Jews did not want to go to Palestine but Hitler and the Second World War changed that.

 

Have you read any Douglas Reed, like 'The Controversy of Zion' etc?

 

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3 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

I've tried to say the same thing, but I've been told by Interested and Webtrekker that it crap.

 

I've read originally the Jews wanted to go to Rwanda to create Israel bur it was zealous zionist Jews that wanted Israel in Palestine. 

 

Many Jews did not want to go to Palestine but Hitler and the Second World War changed that.

 

Have you read any Douglas Reed, like 'The Controversy of Zion' etc?

 

 

have not read any works by Douglas Reed yet.

did you notice this cover of The Economist - December 2012 btw? this cannot be coincidence
- also remember the 2012 olympics which included all the weird covid symbolism, and also spelled out "zion"

 

01 the-economist-2012-cover-depict-hamas-on-gliders - Copy.jpg

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Herzl’s Troubled Dream: The Origins of Zionism

Zionism has been seen either as a movement of national liberation or as a form of settler colonialism. In reality, it is both.

 

iving and working in what is now Lithuania in the second half of the 19th century, the Russian Jewish writer Moshe Leib Lilienblum was confident that, with the right education, Jews and Christians would shed their religious prejudices and learn to live together. An advocate of the Jewish Enlightenment (Haskala), Lilienblum saw the root cause of antisemitism as ignorance. It followed that once Jews and Gentiles had emancipated themselves from superstition, they would coexist harmoniously in a modern, liberal Europe. Reason would unite what historical contingency had torn asunder.

Lilienblum’s faith in the healing power of reason would soon dissipate. During a pogrom in 1881, he spent several days in hiding as gangs rampaged the land in search of Jews. The pogromists, he later recalled, were not just pitchfork-wielding, religious peasants. Students and the proletariat – modern, urban, progressives – had joined the frenzy, targeting religious and secular Jews alike. In that moment, Lilienblum wrote, ‘all the old ideals left me in a flash’. He became a nationalist.

 

Living in exile

The subject of Zionism – the term for Jewish nationalism first used by the Austrian journalist Nathan Birnbaum in 1890 – elicits strong feelings. For some, the Zionist movement and its progeny, the State of Israel, represent national liberation; the chance for Jews to rule themselves. For others, Zionism is a racist, colonial project. Such a Manichean understanding of Zionism – national liberation versus settler colonialism – is too reductive. The story of Jewish nationalism is more complex.

The belief that there exists a divine covenant between Jews and the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel) is a cornerstone of Jewish identity. In the period between the Jewish expulsion by the Romans some 2,000 years ago and the founding of the State of Israel in 1948, many Jews identified themselves as a diasporic people waiting for the Messiah to lead them back to the Holy Land. Various candidates arose in different times and places, such as the mystic rabbi from Ottoman Smyrna Sabbatai Zevi, who eventually converted to Islam on threat of death. But during this period of ‘exile’, Jewish religious leaders cautioned against a premature return and urged their co-religionists to be patient and adjust themselves to life in exile. In the 19th century, this quietist approach began to change.

 

The French Revolution was the primary cause of this development. In 1791, the National Assembly in Paris announced the emancipation of France’s Jewish minority. For the first time, French Jews enjoyed equality before the law. Schools and universities opened up to them, and new professions were made available. ‘The gates of the Jewish ghetto were flung wide open’, wrote the philosopher Isaiah Berlin, ‘and its inmates, after centuries of being driven in upon themselves, were permitted to emerge into the light of day.’

Expanding beyond France’s borders, emancipation created an identity crisis in the Jewish community. Before 1791, communal leaders were able to maintain something approaching a cohesive group identity within the confines of the ghetto. (In the ghetto, the Zionist writer Max Nordau would later write, ‘the Jew had his own world’.) After emancipation, however, as the ghetto gates creaked open and modern ideas encroached on sacred terrain, what had been a distinctive identity began to blur. What did it mean to be Jewish in a world where reason trumped belief and individualism challenged communal identities?

 

The emergence of Zionism

A number of answers to this question were proffered. Some, like Lilienblum, chose assimilation in the belief that a liberal, enlightened Europe would embrace its minorities. Others adopted a reformed religious identity where Judaism would be confined to the private sphere. Still others chose the Orthodox route of holding fast to their faith. A small minority, however, began to contemplate a response which drew on another big idea that was emerging from the social upheavals of modern Europe: nationalism.

 

During the 19th century, European Christians began to identify with whatever nationality they felt an affinity with. A new breed of nationalist intellectual revived and glorified the historic triumphs of their people, rejoicing in the distinctiveness of their language and culture, and eventually demanding the right of self-determination. The emergence of nationalism also deepened the Jewish existential crisis, however. Jews were now forced to choose between their Jewish and, say, Lithuanian identities. Antisemitism made the choice a false one; Jews were often excluded from the national body, however they wished to identify.

 

Zionism emerged from this world. A minority of Jewish thinkers concluded that the only way to secure their community would be to build a Jewish national home. Self-determination – what the Russian Zionist Leon Pinsker called ‘auto-emancipation’ – was the only way. ‘The great ideas of the eighteenth century have not passed by our people without leaving a trace’, Pinsker wrote in his 1882 pamphlet Autoemancipation: ‘We feel not only as Jews; we feel as men. As men, we, too, would fain live and be a nation like others.’

 

The idea of national self-determination went against the quietism of the clergy. However, moved by the emerging nationalist zeitgeist, rabbis Yehuda Hai Alkali and Zvi Hirsch Kalischer argued that Jews should actively reject the exilic life and settle Eretz Israel as a prelude to Redemption. As Alkali wrote in 1845: ‘The land must, by degrees, be built up and prepared.’ Other early Zionists composed their calls for self-determination in a more secular key. In his 1862 tract Rome and Jerusalem, the German Jewish thinker Moses Hess – a figure Marx referred to as ‘my communist rabbi’ – blended socialism and the ideas of Italian nationalist Giuseppe Mazzini to advocate the founding of an independent Jewish socialist commonwealth.

 

Despite these early calls for self-determination, Jewish nationalism did not initially attract many adherents. This began to change in the last quarter of the 19th century. In 1881, the Russian tsar Alexander II was assassinated in an act that sparked a wave of anti-Jewish pogroms across Russia – the same violence that disabused Lilienblum of his idealism. Further west, the pan-Germanist Georg Ritter von Schönerer was espousing racist myths about all-powerful Jews, and in the 1890s there followed an outpouring of anti-Jewish sentiment in France in response to the false accusation of treason against the artillery officer Alfred Dreyfus. By the century’s denouement, antisemitism was casting its shadow across Europe.

 

Palestine

One observer watching the darkening clouds gather was the Austro-Hungarian journalist Theodor Herzl. An unlikely Jewish nationalist, Herzl was an assimilated member of Vienna’s middle class who had little interest in the religion or culture of his forefathers. His emotional and intellectual hinterland was almost entirely made up of the culture and politics of central Europe’s German-speaking communities. Bismarck, Wagner, pan-Germanist fencing clubs – this was the cultural matrix that animated the man who would found the Zionist movement.

 

Despite his lack of interest in Judaism or Jewish culture, Herzl was all too aware of antisemitism. During the 1890s, he came to believe that emancipation had failed because it had led to economic competition between Jews and Gentiles, which in turn had generated anti-Jewish prejudice. Jews had been liberated from the physical ghetto, he concluded, but racism now confined them to a new ghetto whose walls were not immediately visible but were real nonetheless.

 

Herzl committed himself to liberating Jews from this new ghetto. After contemplating a number of schemes, such as socialist revolution and mass conversion to Christianity, Herzl landed on national self-determination. No singular event seems to have occasioned this decision. In 1899, Herzl wrote in an American journal that ‘what made me a Zionist was the Dreyfus trial’, but the historians Shlomo Avineri and Derek Penslar have both convincingly argued that this was an apocryphal tale. It is likely that Zionism came to him gradually during the 1890s. Herzl did not mention it in his articles or – more importantly – in his diary while he reported on the Dreyfus Affair.

 

In his 1896 pamphlet The Jewish State, he argued that the establishment of a modern, European homeland for Jews would provide a refuge for a persecuted people and prevent competition with non-Jews. Antisemitism would disappear and Jews would be able to ‘live at last as free men on our own soil’. In the years following the publication of The Jewish State, Argentina and east Africa would both be mooted as possible locations for the new homeland, but these territories lacked the draw of the Holy Land. Palestine – ‘our ever-memorable historic home’ – was the dream.

Herzl’s vision was not accepted by all. The eastern European intellectual Ahad Ha’am, whose Zionism focused on renewing Judaism rather than fighting antisemitism, castigated Herzl for what he described as his ‘mechanical mimicry’ of Europe. Ha’am viewed Herzlian Zionism as just another form of assimilation, typical of western European Jews who knew little about their ancestors’ faith. He was more interested in establishing a country that was uniquely Jewish rather than a European-style state for Jews.

 

Palestinian Arabs were, unsurprisingly, not supportive. In 1899 the mayor of Jerusalem, Yusuf Diya al-Din Pasha al-Khalidi, told Herzl that it was ‘pure folly’ to attempt to establish a Jewish country in Palestine because it was ‘inhabited by others’. Herzl, who viewed non-Europeans as backward (in The Jewish State he envisions the Jewish homeland as ‘a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilisation as opposed to barbarism’), reassured the mayor that Zionism would benefit all Palestinians: ‘No one can doubt that the well-being of the entire country would be the happy result.’ Despite the opposition, Herzl ploughed on, conscious of the ever-growing threat to European Jewry. One year after the publication of The Jewish State, Herzl convened the First Zionist Congress in Basel and established the World Zionist Organization (WZO). ‘Zionism seeks to establish a home for the Jewish people in Eretz Israel secured under public law’, declared the WZO. Zionism was now an organised movement of national liberation, although Herzl’s premature death in 1904 would mean he would not witness its fruits. 

 

A ‘New Jew’

The story so far captures one aspect of Zionism. It was a national movement that sought to liberate an oppressed community. However, Zionism was a national movement for a people without a land; it needed a land without a people, a terra nullius on which a new society could be crafted. And here we come to its second aspect. In building a Jewish homeland in Eretz Israel – a territory also known as Ottoman Palestine or Greater Syria or the Holy Land – at the expense of the Arab population, the Zionist movement would acquire a settler-colonial dimension, bearing a family resemblance to other ‘New World’ societies such as the United States or Australia.

 

The turn of the 20th century saw many Jews escape the pogroms and poverty of Europe for America. A small minority, though, headed to Ottoman Palestine, an Arab area with a small indigenous Jewish community. Arriving with a hazy plan of establishing a national home, the more ideologically motivated immigrants spoke excitedly of a two-fold redemption: one of the land and one of their people. Eretz Israel, they argued, had gone to seed without Jews and under Muslim rule, and should be transformed into a modern European country – Herzl’s ‘outpost of civilisation’. Similarly, they claimed that diaspora Jews had lost a certain national vitality. Building Israel from the ground up would create a ‘New Jew’; a bold, muscular pioneer who shunned Viennese coffee houses in favour of hard toil in the Holy Land. In the words of one popular Zionist song: ‘We came to this land to build it and to be rebuilt in it.’

 

Zionist ideologues also talked of the need to ‘conquer’ the land and establish an exclusively Jewish economy in Palestine. This meant purchasing territory from Arab landlords and replacing Arab labourers with Jewish workers. It also meant encouraging Jewish employers to employ Jews only. This may have had limited success as a policy, but the message to Palestinians was clear: the Zionist movement wanted the maximum amount of land and the minimum number of Arabs. This was to be achieved through land purchases and immigration. But many also talked of the need to ‘transfer’ the Palestinians – a euphemism for ethnic cleansing – as a prerequisite for building a Jewish majority homeland. The Zionist leader Leo Motzkin spelled this out:

‘Our thought is that the colonisation of Palestine has to go in two directions: Jewish settlement in Eretz Israel and the resettlement of the Arabs of Eretz Israel in areas outside the country.’

 

The First World War marked a key turning point in the quest for Jewish national self-determination. In November 1917, British foreign secretary Arthur Balfour committed Britain to ‘the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people’ with the proviso that the rights of the ‘non-Jewish’ communities were respected. The British occupied Palestine in December and in 1922 the League of Nations bestowed on London a mandate for the territory that included the Balfour Declaration. The Zionist movement now had the backing of a great power.

 

Growing tensions

The British Empire’s support for Zionism was a boost for Jewish nationalism and a blow for Palestine’s Arabs. By 1920, the population of Palestine was 650,000, with Muslim and Christian Arabs making up 90 per cent of the population and the Jewish community (Yishuv) the remaining ten per cent.

 

Tensions between the Yishuv and Palestinians grew. Under the auspices of the British authorities, the blurry outlines of a Jewish state – a governing body (Jewish Agency) led by the Labour Zionists, a trade union organisation (Histadrut), a military force (Haganah) and other proto-state features – were coming into focus. The expulsion of Arabs from farmland and the building of an exclusively Jewish economy antagonised the native Palestinians, who felt the ground beneath their feet disappearing. As an editorial in the newspaper Filastin put it:

‘Ten years ago the Jews were living as Ottoman brothers … The Zionists put an end to all that and prevented any intermingling with the indigenous population.’

 

This friction morphed into violence with particularly bloody incidents in 1921 and 1929. The Labour Zionist leader and head of the Yishuv David Ben-Gurion was not surprised that relations with the Palestinians were spiralling downward. As he once explained: ‘We, as a nation, want this country to be ours; the Arabs, as a nation, want this country to be theirs.’ His opponent, Ze’ev Jabotinsky, leader of the right-wing Revisionist movement, also viewed Palestinian hostility as natural. ‘The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists’, he wrote in 1923. The Arabs looked on Palestine as ‘any Sioux looked upon his prairie’.

 

Not all Zionists held this zero-sum view. The group Brit Shalom, for example, advocated peaceful co-existence and the creation of a bi-national Jewish-Arab commonwealth. However, the diverging aims of Jewish settlers and the native Palestinians meant that conflict was inevitable. For Zionism to succeed, the Yishuv had to be ready for war. As Jabotinsky argued, the settlers would have to construct an ‘iron wall of Jewish bayonets’ to protect them from native anger.

 

The violence intensified. From 1882 to 1931, 187,000 immigrants travelled to Palestine. Between 1932 and 1938, 197,000 Jews sought refuge in the Holy Land due to the rise of the Nazis and the tightening of border restrictions by liberal democracies such as Britain and America. Such a dramatic increase in the rate of immigration sparked an anti-colonial insurgency. Under the leadership of the Arab Higher Committee, led by Haj Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the Palestinians revolted against British rule and Zionist colonisation. The British colonial authorities and Jewish militias subsequently crushed the uprising, fatally weakening the Palestinian national movement.

In 1937, Britain proposed resolving the conflict by partition and a population exchange – a model that had been used in Ireland (1921) and Greece and Turkey (1923), and which would be used on the Indian subcontinent (1947). The Zionist leadership supported the proposal; a small state in Palestine was better than nothing. The Palestinians, who did not see why they had to share with newcomers, rejected it. Desperate to improve their stock in the Arab world, the British government issued a White Paper in 1939 which restricted Jewish immigration and offered a Palestinian state. Unsurprisingly, the Jewish Agency saw the White Paper as a betrayal of Balfour’s promise. Incredibly, the mufti also rejected it against the wishes of the Arab Higher Committee.

 

In February 1947, the British decided to leave Palestine. After the Second World War, the Zionist movement had launched a revolt against their former patrons in large part because of the White Paper, which the Zionist leadership condemned as ‘tantamount to a death sentence upon … those liberated Jews … still languishing in the internment camps of Germany’. Palestine by this point was in flames and London wanted out. In November, the United Nations proposed another partition plan: 55 per cent of Mandatory Palestine would be a Jewish state, with 500,000 Jews and 400,000 Arabs; the remaining land would be a Palestinian state, with 725,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews. Jerusalem would be placed under international control.

The Zionist leadership accepted the proposal, while the Palestinian leadership rejected it. Jews made up only 37 per cent of the population and only owned seven per cent of the land. As the Palestinian historian Walid Khalidi later explained:

 

‘The native people of Palestine, like the native people of every other country in the Arab world, Asia, Africa, America and Europe, refused to divide the land with a settler community.’

 

The promised land?

On 14 May 1948 David Ben-Gurion declared the independence of the State of Israel. The following day, the British withdrew and Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq invaded. The First Arab-Israeli War ended with an Israeli victory and with Jordan and Egypt occupying the West Bank and Gaza respectively. It also resulted in the direct or indirect expulsion of an estimated 750,000 Palestinians.

 

Violence between Jewish settlers and Palestinian natives was always going to be the result – and one side was always going to lose out. In the words of Mordechai Bar-On, an Israel Defense Forces company commander during the 1948 war:

‘If the Jews at the end of the 19th century had not embarked on a project of reassembling the Jewish people in their ‘promised land’, all the refugees languishing in the camps would still be living in the villages from which they fled or were expelled.’

 

Zionism had succeeded in providing a state where Jews could determine their own fate. Israel would also prove a place of refuge for Holocaust survivors and for the estimated 800,000 Jews who would leave their homes in the Arab and Muslim world. Tragically, however, it achieved its aim through the colonisation of inhabited land. Palestine was no terra nullius; there was an indigenous population who would resist dispossession. Zionism’s supporters and detractors may wish to characterise it as either a movement of national liberation or settler colonialism. In reality, it is both.

 

 

 

Link -  Herzl’s Troubled Dream: The Origins of Zionism |

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2 hours ago, shabbirss said:

by ignoring the intel, they allowed it to happen,
 

its the EXACT same playbook as 9-11.

-there was prior knowledge about the 9-11 attacks

MASTERS OF TERROR (2004)

https://banned.video/watch?id=6618264cf0fe3060652bd948

 

08:00-11:00 - women raped n killed,heads cut off" ... "war time propaganda"

 

Time: 19:00 - 22:00 ish

 

AlexJones keywords: : " the evidence of prior knowledge, our government practically funded the taliban"

-just recently israel allowed hamas to be funded by qatari money. which is what the saudi prince condemed israel for in a public speech.


--

 

 

 

"1:34
all militarily occupied people have a
1:38
right to resist their occupation even
1:41
militarily I do not support the military
1:44
option in Palestine I prefer the other
1:47
option civil Insurrection and
1:50
Disobedience it brought down the British
1:52
Empire in
1:54
India and the Soviet Empire in Eastern
1:57
Europe Israel has overwhelming military
2:01
superiority and we see in front of our
2:04
eyes the devastation and Oblivion it is
2:07
bringing to the people of Gaza I
2:10
categorically de condemn hamas's
2:13
targeting of Civilian targets of any age
2:15
or gender as it is accused of such
2:19
targeting belies hamas's claims to an
2:21
Islamic
2:22
identity there is an Islamic injunction
2:26
against the killing of innocent children
2:27
women and elders the injunction is also
2:31
against the desecration of places of
2:34
worship I also condemn hamas's gifting
2:37
the the higher moral ground to an
2:40
Israeli government that is universally
2:42
shunned even by half of the Israeli
2:45
public as fascist miscreant and
2:49
abhorent I condemn Hamas for giving this
2:52
awful government the excuse to
2:54
ethnically cleanse Gaza of its citizens
2:57
and bombing them to Oblivion
3:00
I condemn Hamas to further undermining
3:02
the Palestinian Authority as Israel has
3:05
been doing I condemn Hamas for
3:08
sabotaging the attempt of Saudi Arabia
3:11
to reach a peaceful resolution to the
3:13
plight of the Palestinian people but
3:16
equally I condemn Israel's
3:18
indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian
3:21
innocent civilians in Gaza and the
3:24
attempt to forcibly drive them into siai
3:27
I condemn Israeli targeted killing
3:30
and the indiscriminate arrest of
3:32
Palestinian children women and men in
3:35
the West Bank two wrongs don't make a
3:39
right I've been hearing a repeated
3:42
phrase in American Media unprovoked
3:45
attack what more provocation is required
3:48
to make it provoked than what Israel has
3:51
done to the Palestinian people for three
3:54
quarters of a
3:55
century I refer you to the article in
3:58
the Middle East Monitor of February 17th
4:01
2014 under the title Israeli army
4:05
veterans admit role in Massacre of
4:07
Palestinians in
4:10
1948 Read It and Weep as I did just this
4:14
year from May to July over 450
4:18
Palestinians were killed including 67
4:21
children this Blood leting must stop I
4:26
condemn Israel's sealing of Palestinian
4:28
lands I condemn Israeli colonists for
4:32
rampaging through houses of worship in
4:34
the AKA mosque in
4:36
Jerusalem I condemn Israel for
4:38
destroying Palestinian homes and Olive
4:41
orchids I condemn Israel for in
4:44
incarcerating Palestinian women children
4:46
and men in concentration camps without
4:49
recourse to due process I condemn
4:52
Israel's targeted killings and
4:54
assassinations of
4:56
Palestinians I condemn Israel for
4:58
funneling gut money to (qatari)
5:01
Hamas the terrorist group as defined by
5:04
Israel I condemn Western politicians for
5:07
shedding tears when Israelis are killed
5:10
by Palestinians but refuse to even
5:13
express sorrow when Israelis kill
5:16
Palestinians there are no heroes in
5:18
these conflicts only
5:21
victims ladies and gentlemen the Arab
5:24
peace initiative is the only viable
5:27
alternative to this blood bath
5:30
Israel should seize it with all that it
5:32
can muster of political economic and
5:35
Military might similar to America's
5:38
Vietnam debacle Israel just suffered its
5:41
own t offensive the North Vietnamese
5:45
only to be upended by the North
5:47
Vietnamese T offensive that led to
5:50
Johnson's not running again and West
5:52
Moran's
5:54
res whether Netanyahu will resign we'll
5:57
have to wait and see thank thank you for
5:59

listening to me

 

---


dots are connecting.

 

there are no heroes in this conflict, just victims'

 

 

 

 

 

I agree, there are no heroes, just victims.

 

Even the Hamas soldiers who committed the Oct 7th attack are victims.

 

They will carry that stain to the grave, and pay for it in the next life.

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4 hours ago, shabbirss said:

 I prefer the other

1:47
option civil Insurrection and
1:50
Disobedience it brought down the British
1:52
Empire in
1:54
India and the Soviet Empire in Eastern
1:57

 

Funny, because I have actually specifically stated on this forum that I think this is the correct way, not killing and raping civilians.

 

Evil begats evil.

 

Yet you disagree with my point of view.

 

Funny that.

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4 hours ago, shabbirss said:

by ignoring the intel, they allowed it to happen,

 

 

So I'll ask you again, if Israel had bombed hospitals, schools and residential areas, because that is where Hamas is embedded, BEFORE Hamas attacked, and told the world they had evidence Hamas were planning an attack so they attacked first - would you have believed them and supported them?

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"...a 2006 CNN interview in which Netanyahu says, "So, I wrote a book in 1995, and I said that, ‘If the West doesn’t wake up to the suicidal nature of militant Islam, the next thing you will see is militant Islam bringing down the World Trade Center.’"

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


The Israeli newspaper Ma’ariv reported that Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu told an audience at Bar Ilan university that the September 11, 2001 terror attacks had been beneficial for Israel.

"We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq," Ma’ariv quoted the former prime minister as saying. He reportedly added that these events "swung American public opinion in our favor."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

dancinisraelis.png

 

 

 

islamic-muslim-terrorists-are-jews-15.jpeg

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by novymir
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13 hours ago, pi3141 said:

 

Funny, because I have actually specifically stated on this forum that I think this is the correct way, not killing and raping civilians.

 

Evil begats evil.

 

Yet you disagree with my point of view.

 

Funny that.

 

where do i disagree with your point of view?

i am looking at the bigger picture of it all
trying not to be emotionally REACTIVE as you and some others are
becz emotions cloud our minds and often little details will slip by.

we need to pay attention/awareness to the finer details.

 

why israel funnels money from qatar to hamass?
if they are truly your enemy you will not help finance them.


remember, problem-REACTION-solution

 

 

 

 

Edited by shabbirss
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5 hours ago, shabbirss said:

where do i disagree with your point of view?

i am looking at the bigger picture of it all
trying not to be emotionally REACTIVE as you and some others are
becz emotions cloud our minds and often little details will slip by.

we need to pay attention/awareness to the finer details.

 

why israel funnels money from qatar to hamass?
if they are truly your enemy you will not help finance them.


remember, problem-REACTION-solution

 

 

 

 

 

Oh sorry, but I didn't get the impression you were posting in support of my point of view?

 

In fact in this post above you tell me to look at the finer details.

 

You bumped Interested post which stated I was wrong.

 

So let's see, your saying Israel, with Quatelar's help, is financing Hamas.

 

So tell me, are the Hamas leaders Jewish or working for the Jews?

 

How do you explain the Hamas Charter? Hamas didn't write it themselves?

 

Finally, you want me to believe the Muslim world are a bunch of idiots who don't know they are being played - but you do.

 

Can't you take your evidence to your local Mosque, present it to the Iman, he can forward it on to the proper authority and we can prevent a major humanitarian catastrophe. 

 

Why don't you, or anyone else who's got proof Israel is funding Hamas, take it to a Muslim authority and tell them?

 

Is it impossible?

 

How can so many Muslims be dupes? Islam was way ahead of the West in terms of science, the Muslim world is an educated one, yet here they are being played by the Jews into watching their brothers and sisters get slaughtered. 

 

You should tell someone. 

  • Haha 1
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23 hours ago, shabbirss said:

by ignoring the intel, they allowed it to happen,
 

its the EXACT same playbook as 9-11.

-there was prior knowledge about the 9-11 attacks

MASTERS OF TERROR (2004)

https://banned.video/watch?id=6618264cf0fe3060652bd948

 

08:00-11:00 - women raped n killed,heads cut off" ... "war time propaganda"

 

Time: 19:00 - 22:00 ish

 

AlexJones keywords: : " the evidence of prior knowledge, our government practically funded the taliban"

-just recently israel allowed hamas to be funded by qatari money. which is what the saudi prince condemed israel for in a public speech.


--

 

 

 

"1:34
all militarily occupied people have a
1:38
right to resist their occupation even
1:41
militarily I do not support the military
1:44
option in Palestine I prefer the other
1:47
option civil Insurrection and
1:50
Disobedience it brought down the British
1:52
Empire in
1:54
India and the Soviet Empire in Eastern
1:57
Europe Israel has overwhelming military
2:01
superiority and we see in front of our
2:04
eyes the devastation and Oblivion it is
2:07
bringing to the people of Gaza I
2:10
categorically de condemn hamas's
2:13
targeting of Civilian targets of any age
2:15
or gender as it is accused of such
2:19
targeting belies hamas's claims to an
2:21
Islamic
2:22
identity there is an Islamic injunction
2:26
against the killing of innocent children
2:27
women and elders the injunction is also
2:31
against the desecration of places of
2:34
worship I also condemn hamas's gifting
2:37
the the higher moral ground to an
2:40
Israeli government that is universally
2:42
shunned even by half of the Israeli
2:45
public as fascist miscreant and
2:49
abhorent I condemn Hamas for giving this
2:52
awful government the excuse to
2:54
ethnically cleanse Gaza of its citizens
2:57
and bombing them to Oblivion
3:00
I condemn Hamas to further undermining
3:02
the Palestinian Authority as Israel has
3:05
been doing I condemn Hamas for
3:08
sabotaging the attempt of Saudi Arabia
3:11
to reach a peaceful resolution to the
3:13
plight of the Palestinian people but
3:16
equally I condemn Israel's
3:18
indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian
3:21
innocent civilians in Gaza and the
3:24
attempt to forcibly drive them into siai
3:27
I condemn Israeli targeted killing
3:30
and the indiscriminate arrest of
3:32
Palestinian children women and men in
3:35
the West Bank two wrongs don't make a
3:39
right I've been hearing a repeated
3:42
phrase in American Media unprovoked
3:45
attack what more provocation is required
3:48
to make it provoked than what Israel has
3:51
done to the Palestinian people for three
3:54
quarters of a
3:55
century I refer you to the article in
3:58
the Middle East Monitor of February 17th
4:01
2014 under the title Israeli army
4:05
veterans admit role in Massacre of
4:07
Palestinians in
4:10
1948 Read It and Weep as I did just this
4:14
year from May to July over 450
4:18
Palestinians were killed including 67
4:21
children this Blood leting must stop I
4:26
condemn Israel's sealing of Palestinian
4:28
lands I condemn Israeli colonists for
4:32
rampaging through houses of worship in
4:34
the AKA mosque in
4:36
Jerusalem I condemn Israel for
4:38
destroying Palestinian homes and Olive
4:41
orchids I condemn Israel for in
4:44
incarcerating Palestinian women children
4:46
and men in concentration camps without
4:49
recourse to due process I condemn
4:52
Israel's targeted killings and
4:54
assassinations of
4:56
Palestinians I condemn Israel for
4:58
funneling gut money to (qatari)
5:01
Hamas the terrorist group as defined by
5:04
Israel I condemn Western politicians for
5:07
shedding tears when Israelis are killed
5:10
by Palestinians but refuse to even
5:13
express sorrow when Israelis kill
5:16
Palestinians there are no heroes in
5:18
these conflicts only
5:21
victims ladies and gentlemen the Arab
5:24
peace initiative is the only viable
5:27
alternative to this blood bath
5:30
Israel should seize it with all that it
5:32
can muster of political economic and
5:35
Military might similar to America's
5:38
Vietnam debacle Israel just suffered its
5:41
own t offensive the North Vietnamese
5:45
only to be upended by the North
5:47
Vietnamese T offensive that led to
5:50
Johnson's not running again and West
5:52
Moran's
5:54
res whether Netanyahu will resign we'll
5:57
have to wait and see thank thank you for
5:59

listening to me

 

---


dots are connecting.

 

there are no heroes in this conflict, just victims'

 

 

 

 

 

23 hours ago, pi3141 said:

Just curious, but if Israel had launched a pre-emptive strike against Hamas, bombing hospitals, and civilian areas where Hamas are embedded l, before Hamas attacked - what would you be saying then?

 

Israel were right to launch an attack on civilians if they were in possession of intelligence? 

 

Would you accept Israel claiming a pre-emptive strike to prevent the Palestinians from harming themselves by being forced into a war they did not want, even though they voted for Hamas, would you say it was justified?

 

Would you accept that from Israel?

 

Or would you claim Israeli aggression against a people that hadn't attacked and didn't deserve to be attacked themselves?

 

 

 

19 hours ago, pi3141 said:

So I'll ask you again, if Israel had bombed hospitals, schools and residential areas, because that is where Hamas is embedded, BEFORE Hamas attacked, and told the world they had evidence Hamas were planning an attack so they attacked first - would you have believed and supported them?

 

Did you forget to answer?

 

I'd be interested to know, if Israel had acted on the intel and attacked the Palestinians first, would you be supporting Israel?

 

I guess the answer is no, because you think Hamas and the Palestinians are being played by Israel, so either way, it's the Jews fault.

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@shabbirss

 

You laugh, but you don’t answer.

 

Seems to me you don't want to answer that question.

 

I think I know why.

 

How come members on here are so sure of their facts, ut when questioned, resort to insults, distractions, and avoidance.

 

That's no way to treat the truth, and it's no way to behave on a discussion forum.

 

If someone is not here to discuss, and just want to post rubbish and not back it up, get involved in discussion and then bail out when it gets uncomfortable, I don't think those posters are genuine and I regard such a poster as pretty 'low brow'

 

If this is where their spiritual journey has bought them, incapable of discerning truth and lies and brainwashed into a world view, their spiritual journey has been a failure. 

 

They should ask for their money back, and then go and start at the beginning again.

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On 3/12/2024 at 4:50 PM, shabbirss said:

if hamas was truly your enemy, would you help them out by funneling money to them???

 

On 4/5/2024 at 9:36 PM, shabbirss said:

- when it comes to political things, or anything crazy like this, details details details are most important.

 

 

23 hours ago, shabbirss said:

why israel funnels money from qatar to hamass?
if they are truly your enemy you will not help finance them.
 

 

 

Israel has provided civilian and economic aid to the Palestinians1. The Palestinians view the aid as keeping the Israeli–Palestinian peace process going, while Israelis and other foreign policy authorities have raised concerns that it is used to fund terrorism and removes the imperative for Palestinians to negotiate a settlement of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict2. Israel has also announced the entry of more than 300 aid trucks into Gaza, but the delivery still falls far short of what the United Nations says is the minimum required to feed millions of people on the brink of starvation3. The US has also provided humanitarian assistance to the West Bank and Gaza4.

 

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians

 

 

Where do the billions of dollars in foreign aid to Gaza really go?
From 2014 to 2020, UN agencies spent close to $4.5 billion in the Strip, including $600 million in 2020 alone

 

Link - https://www.timesofisrael.com/where-do-the-billions-of-dollars-in-foreign-aid-to-gaza-really-go/

 

 

A look at the billions of dollars in foreign aid to Gaza

BY THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published 12:48 PM BST, December 20, 2021

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — The international community has sent billions of dollars in aid to the Gaza Strip in recent years to provide relief to the more than 2 million Palestinians living in the isolated, Hamas-ruled territory.

 

The aid is intended to ease the burden on civilians of an Israeli-Egyptian blockade imposed on Gaza when the Islamic militant group seized power from rival Palestinian forces in 2007.

 

Israel says the heavy restrictions on trade and movement are needed to keep Hamas from enhancing its military capability, while critics view it as a form of collective punishment. Israel and Hamas have fought four wars since 2008, the most recent in May.

 

Israel closely supervises aid to try to ensure it bypasses Hamas. But the Hamas-run government benefits from foreign countries footing the bill for schools, hospitals and infrastructure, allowing it to conserve its own resources, including the taxes and customs it collects.

 

Link - https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-aid-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90

 

 

Israel calls to increase financial aid to Palestinian Authority

Participating in the Ad Hoc Liaison Committee meeting in Oslo, Minister for Regional Cooperation Issawi Frej expressed the support of the Israeli government in increasing international financial assistance for the Palestinian Authority.

 

Link - https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/11/israel-calls-increase-financial-aid-palestinian-authority

 

 

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4 hours ago, pi3141 said:

Israel says the heavy restrictions on trade and movement are needed to keep Hamas from enhancing its military capability, while critics view it as a form of collective punishment. Israel and Hamas have fought four wars since 2008, the most recent in May.

 

Israel closely supervises aid to try to ensure it bypasses Hamas. But the Hamas-run government benefits from foreign countries footing the bill for schools, hospitals and infrastructure, allowing it to conserve its own resources, including the taxes and customs it collects.

 

We talk about Israel and Palestine as if they're two separate countries, but even before the current war Israel was exerting all this control and supervision of Gaza as if the relationship is more one of empire or satrapy. Even if the Palestinians do have elections and their own governors, they only have limited control of their own country anyway. 

 

I'm not saying I have an easy alternative to all this, but wouldn't it be better if a more neutral and independent group could do the supervising and control of Gaza until they're ready to do it themselves, such as UN peacekeepers and observers. It might help de-escalate things a bit. 

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