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Do beliefs create your reality?


Mr H

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1 hour ago, Mr H said:

Well you have to start somewhere. Be the change that you seek.

 

It's also not a case of them and us. Judging by my conversations here, even folks here are not prepared to self actualize and wish to continue experiencing as a limited human and all the stories that involves.....

 

A long way to go yet....

 

Self enquiry needs to be taught in schools and be part of everyday life

 One can hope....

 

I get what you're saying yet I don't see a correlation between the kind of self-actualisation you're talking about and the types of conspiracy theory we get here. Maybe it's a case of birds of a feather flocking together, the other spiritual forums I belong to which promote things like self inquiry are mostly populated with much more left wing and globalist minded. Being spiritual doesn't lead most people in the direction where they would consider reading up on David Icke. 

 

What 'stories' are you referring to? For me, the things which motivate me to come here, the attacks on our freedoms and communities by powerful interests won't go away by doing self-inquiry and calling them stories.  Not that we shouldn't self-inquire, meditate do yoga or whatever practice we want, but those things won't save us from the attacks. 

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1 hour ago, Mr H said:

I have done it.

 

The process is well documented. Either use self enquiry or neti neti process. 

 

You have to spend time enquiring what you are not until you remain. The Neuro pathways are unique to the individual

 

What does it mean?

 

Well the great discovery is that you are not a limited entity. There are no entities. So this in itself eliminate all suffering because if there are no entities and essentially just one if we can call it that, you would cease wanting to harm others, because others is yourself.

 

Additionally you get to discover the real qualities of you. That is that you are eternal, abundant and inherently peaceful by nature. Abiding by this leafs to a peaceful and plentiful existence.

In case it is not clear. Provide an example

 

Most folks believe they are a human. What is a human made of? Essentially a body and a mind.

 

What is a body and a mind made of?

 

Sensations, perceptions thoughts and feelings..

 

Are any of these necessary for your existence?

 

Well check it out.

 

Thoughts come and go. You remain

Perceptions come and go, you remain

Sensations and feelings come and go, you remain

 

So even in 1 minute it is quite clear what you essentially are, i.e. That what is necessary for your existence is nothing human....

 

It's very simple, obvious and real.. involves no theory or woo woo...

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27 minutes ago, Campion said:

 

I get what you're saying yet I don't see a correlation between the kind of self-actualisation you're talking about and the types of conspiracy theory we get here. Maybe it's a case of birds of a feather flocking together, the other spiritual forums I belong to which promote things like self inquiry are mostly populated with much more left wing and globalist minded. Being spiritual doesn't lead most people in the direction where they would consider reading up on David Icke. 

 

What 'stories' are you referring to? For me, the things which motivate me to come here, the attacks on our freedoms and communities by powerful interests won't go away by doing self-inquiry and calling them stories.  Not that we shouldn't self-inquire, meditate do yoga or whatever practice we want, but those things won't save us from the attacks. 

The main limited story I refer to although there are many is the story of death and the story of lack. Both false. These two misunderstandings drive most "evil" behavior.

 

I'm not sure what correlation you refer. I was saying this is the solution to all suffering. Which includes behaviors of those conducting agendas.

 

If they were taught to self actualize, they wouldn't conduct evil, because they would realize they're hurting themselves. It's because they feel lack and believe they will die evil takes place.

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3 hours ago, Mr H said:

Well the great discovery is that you are not a limited entity. There are no entities. So this in itself eliminate all suffering because if there are no entities and essentially just one if we can call it that, you would cease wanting to harm others, because others is yourself.

 

Additionally you get to discover the real qualities of you. That is that you are eternal, abundant and inherently peaceful by nature. Abiding by this leafs to a peaceful and plentiful existence.

 

ok but shouldn't you be telling this to the people behind the conspiracy?

 

Isn't it them that need to learn to not harm others?

 

if you just tell the people being victimised by them eg for example those being subjected to lockdowns, mass vaccination drives, mass immigration, economic turmoil, net zero etc then all you are doing by encouraging them to do this is to stop minding that they are being victimised through becoming 'one' with those doing the crimes

 

also if you believe there is no free will then why, logically, would you even bother trying to convince anyone on an internet forum of this? If there is no free will then everything is just going to roll out as it will so nothing you say would make any difference. So if you actually believe that then why don't you just sit back and let things roll out?

 

The only people who stand to gain something from convincing others of something is those who believe in free will because they believe that peoples choices matter

 

If you believe there are no choices then why is it so important for you to convince people here of that?

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23 hours ago, Phil26 said:

So you're got a saviour then.

 

i said no such thing

 

if you want to learn something who is best to invest your time and energy listening to or reading the work of? an idiot,know nothing with loud opinions or someone who has actually gained knowledge through learning and experience?

 

i don't listen to brand or rogan because they can't teach me anything. They are lightweights in terms of information, knowledge and understanding.

 

It has nothing to do with 'saviours'. I'm talking about who has good info and who doesn't

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1 hour ago, Mr H said:

The main limited story I refer to although there are many is the story of death and the story of lack. Both false.

 

then why do you eat? you eat to avoid death and because your body feels the lack of nutrition. You are no different to anyone else

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49 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Well check it out.

 

Thoughts come and go. You remain

Perceptions come and go, you remain

Sensations and feelings come and go, you remain

 

So even in 1 minute it is quite clear what you essentially are, i.e. That what is necessary for your existence is nothing human....

 

It's very simple, obvious and real.. involves no theory or woo woo...

  

Some feedback from my checking it out. 

 

When thought goes and there's just perception and sensation, then the self-reference "I" isn't present (in my experience). Conclusion: I am the self-referential thought. 

 

My thoughts, my perceptions, my sensations, my emotions, my mind, my soul, my self, it's all "mine" however deep I go. How can a word like "myself" make sense? It's self-referential, a paradox. 

 

Awareness can be formed into a dual structure with directions: outwards and inwards. "Self" is when awareness is pointing inwards. "Other" is when it's pointing outwards. Like when I focus attention on an object (a part of the whole)  and everything else becomes the periphery (like the foreground and background of a painting). That distinction is of course made up by me. What happens when I don't make a distinction between inside and outside, foreground and background; with the collapse of the duality the self is nothing/everything. 

 

Can awareness point  to itself? Awareness of awareness, is what I understand by self-inquiry. 

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1 hour ago, Mr H said:

The main limited story I refer to although there are many is the story of death and the story of lack. Both false. These two misunderstandings drive most "evil" behavior.

 

I'm not sure what correlation you refer. I was saying this is the solution to all suffering. Which includes behaviors of those conducting agendas.

 

If they were taught to self actualize, they wouldn't conduct evil, because they would realize they're hurting themselves. It's because they feel lack and believe they will die evil takes place.

 

In short I mean the correlation between enlightenment and survival/thriving here on Earth. Which there isn't one necessarily. 

 

Your mention of a solution to suffering brings to mind the Buddha who claimed to give a path to the way out of suffering. Well even if he did, here we are 2500 years later and the world is just as messed up as it was back then. Even Buddhist countries where a majority of the people practice his way.  All religions claim to be working for a better world or better people. Even the WEF claims that 'you will own nothing and be happy.' 

 

As long as we want to remain human we're part of this struggle and it involves suffering and pleasure, defeat and victory. What you're suggesting reminds me of the Hsin Hsin Ming poem: 

 

"The Perfect Way knows no difficulties
Except that it refuses to make preferences;
Only when freed from hate and love,
It reveals itself fully and without disguise"

 

Ie to be free (in the Zen pov) you need to let go of preferences and attachments and accept the present moment. That's never going to happen for the whole human race. Only a few sages. Imo the rest of us need to make an accommodation between the spiritual life and the worldly life. 

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54 minutes ago, Campion said:

  

Some feedback from my checking it out. 

 

When thought goes and there's just perception and sensation, then the self-reference "I" isn't present (in my experience). Conclusion: I am the self-referential thought. 

 

My thoughts, my perceptions, my sensations, my emotions, my mind, my soul, my self, it's all "mine" however deep I go. How can a word like "myself" make sense? It's self-referential, a paradox. 

 

Awareness can be formed into a dual structure with directions: outwards and inwards. "Self" is when awareness is pointing inwards. "Other" is when it's pointing outwards. Like when I focus attention on an object (a part of the whole)  and everything else becomes the periphery (like the foreground and background of a painting). That distinction is of course made up by me. What happens when I don't make a distinction between inside and outside, foreground and background; with the collapse of the duality the self is nothing/everything. 

 

Can awareness point  to itself? Awareness of awareness, is what I understand by self-inquiry. 

Amazing share thank you.

 

In answer to the last question. It is no. That's like saying take a step towards yourself. You cannot point to that which you are. You can experience it by being it, knowingly.

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1 hour ago, Macnamara said:

 

i said no such thing

 

if you want to learn something who is best to invest your time and energy listening to or reading the work of? an idiot,know nothing with loud opinions or someone who has actually gained knowledge through learning and experience?

 

i don't listen to brand or rogan because they can't teach me anything. They are lightweights in terms of information, knowledge and understanding.

 

It has nothing to do with 'saviours'. I'm talking about who has good info and who doesn't

You stay stuck listening to hypocrites like Passio, he is just entertaining you while you wait to enter the next life cycle.

 

Exactly how much more "good info" do you need to consume from the 'alternative' news media like Passio before you actually wake up? If the info is so good why do you need more of it? What are you gaining by consuming the content?

 

You haven't figured it out yet?

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1 hour ago, Campion said:

  

Some feedback from my checking it out. 

 

When thought goes and there's just perception and sensation, then the self-reference "I" isn't present (in my experience). Conclusion: I am the self-referential thought. 

 

My thoughts, my perceptions, my sensations, my emotions, my mind, my soul, my self, it's all "mine" however deep I go. How can a word like "myself" make sense? It's self-referential, a paradox. 

 

Awareness can be formed into a dual structure with directions: outwards and inwards. "Self" is when awareness is pointing inwards. "Other" is when it's pointing outwards. Like when I focus attention on an object (a part of the whole)  and everything else becomes the periphery (like the foreground and background of a painting). That distinction is of course made up by me. What happens when I don't make a distinction between inside and outside, foreground and background; with the collapse of the duality the self is nothing/everything. 

 

Can awareness point  to itself? Awareness of awareness, is what I understand by self-inquiry. 

It is a paradox.

 

When people say they "focus" on not being self by definition they are focusing on self, because who is doing the focusing! Then they say that non duality means it's possible to focus on being "the one", but again by being aware of that point of view the self is individualised. It is that cognitive dissonant thinking which causes people who do that to disassociate, it is becoming a problem with a lot of people in psychiatric treatment. Disassociation and 'multiple personality', now called DID, is becoming.more common and especially in those who do the type of 'meditation' or 'non self awareness' exercises. Mooji is a popular guru for those types and he has left a trail of people from his community with disassociation disorders. There are many of his ex followers online and he has switched off comments off his social media to avoid the comments from his ex followers.

 

Mr H's way of thinking is a dead end and simply regurgitation of the same non duality tropes popular with new age types looking for an easy answer.

 

It goes like this -

 

1.  They have feelings of low self worth, anxiety, fear, loneliness. (Makes them an easy target for the non duality cult thinking)

2. 'Meditate' into a relaxed state (leaving then hovering between 10-12Hz, making them suggestible).

3. Get them to let go of all their worries and problems in the world they are currently in by getting them to focus on a 'home' far away from the crappy life they have. Convince them they are at one (all powerful - stops their anxiety and fear!) with all the others who are also 'one' (cures their loneliness!).Happy brain chemicals flood their body and they are hooked!!!!

 

It is exactly what the elite and those controlling them want! People disassociating from who are are so they will happily "walk into the light" to join the hive mind. 

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7 minutes ago, Phil26 said:

It is a paradox.

 

When people say they "focus" on not being self by definition they are focusing on self, because who is doing the focusing! Then they say that non duality means it's possible to focus on being "the one", but again by being aware of that point of view the self is individualised. It is that cognitive dissonant thinking which causes people who do that to disassociate, it is becoming a problem with a lot of people in psychiatric treatment. 

 

I'll leave the silly nonsense assumptions you make about me to oneside.

 

In what I was speaking about you do not focus on anything. That kind of defeats the point. That would be an indirect path meditation practice with the use of attention. 

 

Ive never known an enlightened being needing psychiatric help, but I guess possible. If you look at reality and the facts, the people seeing psychiatric treatment and drugs are those who do not self actualize 

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Personally I feel the "path to enlightenment" is an individual one. There will be commonalities here and there, possibly to ensure that we can see another's viewpoint, but our journey is our own. By sharing our beliefs perhaps we can learn from each other rather than have the separatist mindset that has been pasted on to us by those who wish to control.

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3 hours ago, Mr H said:

I'll leave the silly nonsense assumptions you make about me to oneside.

 

In what I was speaking about you do not focus on anything. That kind of defeats the point. That would be an indirect path meditation practice with the use of attention. 

 

Ive never known an enlightened being needing psychiatric help, but I guess possible. If you look at reality and the facts, the people seeing psychiatric treatment and drugs are those who do not self actualize 

You act superior to others all the time, that shows all you focus on is pretending to yourself that you're aware and enlightened. 🙄

 

I've known and given therapy to many whom had unfortunately been falsely led to believe drugs and other 'experiences' would help them. The fact you think you are "self actualised" while you assume those who seek help could not be self aware is arrogant and shows signs of narcissistic thinking. 

 

I've seen a woman who was pushed into multiple drugs, which really affected her badly, but she was determined to find awareness and truth. That woman had amazing realisation and changed her entire life. None of it with any new age crap. In fact she discussed with me how the new age 'path' she had been led into in her twenties was what set her up for her nervous breakdown in her thirties! It took her years to undo the new age crap, but she did.

 

And I knew another woman, who got pregnant by a guru at an ashram (not surprising as he was using all the women there). She miscarried. He told her In front of everyone (public shaming )that she was unenlightened and would never be self aware because she cried over the loss of her baby! She stayed with him and gave up her self worth and self respect in the process. He told her non duality meant the baby was part of the 'one' so she had not lost anything. 🙄 It's mind control bs. He even made her self isolate after the miscarriage and forbade anyone from comforting her.

 

I've seen the detachment you exhibit in all those new age followers. It's not natural and it is a form of disassociation.

 

People are suffering in the simulation and your new age, Buddhist lite approach is nothing but a form of denial and fantasy.

 

You're talking to yourself in these comments. You drift off into sedated verbage. Anyone challenging what you say just gets another Cheech  and Chong's guide to the new age from you. 🙄

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12 hours ago, Phil26 said:

When people say they "focus" on not being self by definition they are focusing on self, because who is doing the focusing! Then they say that non duality means it's possible to focus on being "the one", but again by being aware of that point of view the self is individualised. It is that cognitive dissonant thinking which causes people who do that to disassociate, it is becoming a problem with a lot of people in psychiatric treatment. Disassociation and 'multiple personality', now called DID, is becoming.more common and especially in those who do the type of 'meditation' or 'non self awareness' exercises.

  

Focusing or concentration type meditation was what I originally learned using things like mantras and breathing. You focus on one thing and let go of everything else.  I haven't come across a nondual teaching to focus on being the one, it's more about giving the focussing a rest for a while. Then I find the self re-emerges quite unharmed. But it is quite a powerful experience if you're not ready for it, having spent all our previous life building up the sense of self. I would say that before getting into advanced mystical spirituality like that you first need to have achieved a healthy sense of self. If you're prone to something like depression or dissociation then deal with that before trying to find enlightenment.  

 

13 hours ago, Phil26 said:

Mooji is a popular guru for those types and he has left a trail of people from his community with disassociation disorders. There are many of his ex followers online and he has switched off comments off his social media to avoid the comments from his ex followers.

 

Mr H's way of thinking is a dead end and simply regurgitation of the same non duality tropes popular with new age types looking for an easy answer.

 

I have heard a bit about Mooji but not enough to judge him. There are very many gurus, meditation teachers, spiritual groups and writing them all off, or a whole way of thinking, based on only one example isn't being fair. 

 

13 hours ago, Phil26 said:

It goes like this -

 

1.  They have feelings of low self worth, anxiety, fear, loneliness. (Makes them an easy target for the non duality cult thinking)

2. 'Meditate' into a relaxed state (leaving then hovering between 10-12Hz, making them suggestible).

3. Get them to let go of all their worries and problems in the world they are currently in by getting them to focus on a 'home' far away from the crappy life they have. Convince them they are at one (all powerful - stops their anxiety and fear!) with all the others who are also 'one' (cures their loneliness!).Happy brain chemicals flood their body and they are hooked!!!!

 

It is exactly what the elite and those controlling them want! People disassociating from who are are so they will happily "walk into the light" to join the hive mind. 

 

There are cults around all over the place. Eastern spirituality isn't immune, but it's not alone. 

 

You refer to meditation being able to create relaxed or hypnotic states, happiness etc. Surely if done in a good environment these can be positive things, if done with a trustworthy professional teacher, or by yourself. As a general rule, if you see a professional for some service it's good for them to belong to an institute or association to give oversight. I used to be an accountant and belonged to an association to govern the profession - why not have a similar thing for meditation and mindfulness. 

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5 hours ago, Campion said:

  

Focusing or concentration type meditation was what I originally learned using things like mantras and breathing. You focus on one thing and let go of everything else.  I haven't come across a nondual teaching to focus on being the one, it's more about giving the focussing a rest for a while. Then I find the self re-emerges quite unharmed. But it is quite a powerful experience if you're not ready for it, having spent all our previous life building up the sense of self. I would say that before getting into advanced mystical spirituality like that you first need to have achieved a healthy sense of self. If you're prone to something like depression or dissociation then deal with that before trying to find enlightenment.  

 

 

I have heard a bit about Mooji but not enough to judge him. There are very many gurus, meditation teachers, spiritual groups and writing them all off, or a whole way of thinking, based on only one example isn't being fair. 

 

 

There are cults around all over the place. Eastern spirituality isn't immune, but it's not alone. 

 

You refer to meditation being able to create relaxed or hypnotic states, happiness etc. Surely if done in a good environment these can be positive things, if done with a trustworthy professional teacher, or by yourself. As a general rule, if you see a professional for some service it's good for them to belong to an institute or association to give oversight. I used to be an accountant and belonged to an association to govern the profession - why not have a similar thing for meditation and mindfulness. 

The whole basis of non duality is 'one not two'. If you are not sure about this, as you mentioned in your comment, then try some philosophy websites for more detail.

 

You also mentioned you approached the meditation concept as letting go of self and then 'coming back', but in non duality the ultimate aim to to never 'come back'. It is the equivalent to 'Heaven' in western traditions.

 

What is interesting about this new agey brainwashing is it is all based on mainstream religion, while those practicing it don't realise it was taught originally as a control mechanism of the masses. In western religion people were taught prayers, rosary, confessions and singing hymns to train them to think a certain way and  make them suggestible. while in the east you had other cultural equivalents. But it's all coming from the same intention - to get you to let go of your sovereignty as an individual. It's not spiritual at all. It's all a scam.  The side effects of mental illness that many suffer doing it are proof that it is damaging people.

 

I am not being unfair to Mooji, or Eckhart Tolle or other gurus. Eckhart TOOK THE JAB AND BOOSTERS, which he admitted he did out of fear. That is the same man who is preaching about getting rid of the "fear body", while he has jabs because of his fear! How brainwashed would someone have to be to give him a pass on that and still believe he is 'enlightened'. 🙄

 

Mooji is running a cult. He is using his compound to hide his abuse from the outside. 

Mooji: suicides, sex cult and abuse of followers

And there is much more information on the internet from his ex followers. So no, it's not 'just one example".

 

Other examples. Sexual abuse by yoga gurus

Also try Google. You will find thousands of examples and many more victims of spiritual abuse by gurus, new agers and 'spiritual' people pretending to be enlightened while using it to abuse. There is no defense for it.

 

I find it interesting that new age followers and so called 'spiritual' people are so quick to defend the eastern Cults and gurus when they are the same people (quite rightly) condemning the Catholic church abuses and the Pastors who get caught with teens! But get a guy in a sheet saying OM doing the same or worse and the new age types give them a free pass. 

 

You use the usual mitigation of 'well others do it too' excuse when you said "There are cults around all over the place. Eastern spirituality isn't immune, but it's not alone.". That is not the point. Abuse of power is abused of power. I don't care if it is a Catholic Bishop, a guru or anyone else, they all are wrong. Ironically your defense that it's"not fair" to accuse people because you think it's an isolated accusation (even though it's actually a global issue) is exactly why millions of children were abused by churches and cults all over the world, and still are. You're turning away from spiritual abuse because you don't want to believe it and it makes you and others feel uncomfortable.

 

Hypnosis is not benign, neither is meditation. If people want to do it then that is their own free will, but that does not mean we have to stand by and stay silent about the dangers or consequences.

 

Hypnosis is open to abuse, as is meditation. It's incredible that people warn their kids not to get drunk or take drugs as they mess with their ability to make judgements, affect memory, can cause paranoia, anxiety and depression etc. but kids everywhere are sitting in preschool learning yoga, meditation and their parents are happy that their little ones, whose brains have not fully formed yet, are having their brains and nervous system programmed, restructured and neural pathways affected at a deep level. It's no wonder children have more mental illness today than ever before.

 

It is astonishing that new age types have no knowledge of neurological function, neurochemistry etc. but they subject themselves to brain training that alters their brains. They basically think they know it all because they watched a video online and looked at some colourful graphics of the pineal and pituitary glands. 🙄

 

Non duality types walk into the light trying to merge with the One, the collective and all that bs. 🙄

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16 hours ago, Phil26 said:

The whole basis of non duality is 'one not two'. If you are not sure about this, as you mentioned in your comment, then try some philosophy websites for more detail.

 

You also mentioned you approached the meditation concept as letting go of self and then 'coming back', but in non duality the ultimate aim to to never 'come back'. It is the equivalent to 'Heaven' in western traditions.

...... 

 

Mooji is running a cult. He is using his compound to hide his abuse from the outside. 

Mooji: suicides, sex cult and abuse of followers

And there is much more information on the internet from his ex followers. So no, it's not 'just one example".

 

Other examples. Sexual abuse by yoga gurus

Also try Google. You will find thousands of examples and many more victims of spiritual abuse by gurus, new agers and 'spiritual' people pretending to be enlightened while using it to abuse. There is no defense for it.

 

I find it interesting that new age followers and so called 'spiritual' people are so quick to defend the eastern Cults and gurus when they are the same people (quite rightly) condemning the Catholic church abuses and the Pastors who get caught with teens! But get a guy in a sheet saying OM doing the same or worse and the new age types give them a free pass. 

 

Yes I get the idea of nonduality, it's rather like monism in western philosophy. It was Mooji who I'm not too familiar with. I've seen a couple of his youtube videos but I'll leave it to others to debate him. 

 

You are discussing two rather different issues: whether nonduality meditation is unhealthy; and abusive cults within religion in general.  Perhaps there's some overlap if people become suggestive from the states of mind resulting from religious practice: but as you say that can happen in other religions too. I would just reiterate my earlier point that leaders need accountability; so any organisation like a guru ashram or a church which lacks governance and puts the guru in a position of absolute power is a big red flag. 

 

 

16 hours ago, Phil26 said:

You use the usual mitigation of 'well others do it too' excuse when you said "There are cults around all over the place. Eastern spirituality isn't immune, but it's not alone.". That is not the point. Abuse of power is abused of power. I don't care if it is a Catholic Bishop, a guru or anyone else, they all are wrong. Ironically your defense that it's"not fair" to accuse people because you think it's an isolated accusation (even though it's actually a global issue) is exactly why millions of children were abused by churches and cults all over the world, and still are. You're turning away from spiritual abuse because you don't want to believe it and it makes you and others feel uncomfortable.

 

I didn't say 'others do it too' as mitigation, of course it's all abuse; but earlier you were pointing at one nonduality guru in particular to evidence a general point. I'm not turning away from it, I agree that we need strict safeguarding rules and monitoring. 

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On 2/22/2024 at 12:39 PM, Campion said:

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't say 'others do it too' as mitigation, of course it's all abuse; but earlier you were pointing at one nonduality guru in particular to evidence a general point. I'm not turning away from it, I agree that we need strict safeguarding rules and monitoring. 

No idea about Mooji booji or whoever. I know he has sex with a lot of followers. Other than that no idea.

 

Who appoints this Mooji as guru? Seekers not Mr Mooji booji. So I think responsibility falls upon the seeker, rather than a dude with a beard. No need for safeguards or monitoring imo.

 

Reminds me of Ayahuasca craze. Like traditionally you're not meant to drink it as a patient or seeker, the only the trained shaman. But people do it. Including myself and David. And if I would have got bum raped as some do.during these ceremonies it would have been my fault.

 

You don't need to elevate anyone as guru, if you do, at your own risk and you have to take the responsibility..

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47 minutes ago, Mr H said:

No idea about Mooji booji or whoever. I know he has sex with a lot of followers. Other than that no idea.

 

Who appoints this Mooji as guru? Seekers not Mr Mooji booji. So I think responsibility falls upon the seeker, rather than a dude with a beard. No need for safeguards or monitoring imo.

 

I've noticed in the neo-advaita scene, other guru scenes, and the New Age that there's personality cults around individual teachers who set up on their own like Mooji, Rupert Spira, Jim Newman. So you're right the responsibility is on the seeker (caveat emptor) where there's no-one else to keep an eye on things like with a religious denomination that has a hierarchy.  Trouble is if some of the seekers are vulnerable or naive. They can attract people with mental health problems or children so things like police checks are important.  But as we all know, even with these safeguards there are scandals like pedophile priests within large churches. Hopefully the rules have tightened up enough now. 

 

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1 hour ago, Campion said:

 

  Trouble is if some of the seekers are vulnerable or naive. They can attract people with mental health problems or children so things like police checks are important.  But as we all know, even with these safeguards there are scandals like pedophile priests within large churches. Hopefully the rules have tightened up enough now. 

 

Vulnerable and naive who's perspective?

 

There will be members of the public who think people who follow and give David Icke money are vulnerable and naive. Perspective.........

 

For children and the mentally ill, every act during the day they are vulnerable. Like buying an ice cream. Monitoring everything is overkill imo. And generally speaking those people will be in better hands than most other situations they find themselves in. I.e. less likely that Rupert is going to rape a mentally ill child than some random ice cream seller.

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9 hours ago, Mr H said:

Reminds me of Ayahuasca craze. Like traditionally you're not meant to drink it as a patient or seeker, the only the trained shaman. But people do it. Including myself and David. And if I would have got bum raped as some do.during these ceremonies it would have been my fault.

So you think if a woman or man is taking drugs that means it is their fault if they get raped. Not the fault of the rapist. 🙄

 

So according to you people lose the right to consent if they take drugs, are on medication or drinking alcohol. You think they lose the right of body autonomy. 🙄

 

It's a good thing the courts don't see it that way.

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9 hours ago, Campion said:

 

I've noticed in the neo-advaita scene, other guru scenes, and the New Age that there's personality cults around individual teachers who set up on their own like Mooji, Rupert Spira, Jim Newman. So you're right the responsibility is on the seeker (caveat emptor) where there's no-one else to keep an eye on things like with a religious denomination that has a hierarchy.  Trouble is if some of the seekers are vulnerable or naive. They can attract people with mental health problems or children so things like police checks are important.  But as we all know, even with these safeguards there are scandals like pedophile priests within large churches. Hopefully the rules have tightened up enough now. 

 

When you use the word "attract" people with mental health issues and children etc. you are overlooking the fact that they target those groups. The "attraction" is manipulation by the cult leader.

 

For example friends of mine found out that Mooji accepts applications to go to his compound for free (you normally have to pay but you can email about a free 'course') so they emailed and were asked a lot of questions, among these were sexual health questions and how many friends and family they are close to. Then they were asked to send recent photos (told they had to be full body in t-shirts and shorts with bare feet). They sent their photos. He is in his 60s, tall, bony and bald, she is overweight, average height but not conventionally attractive, small chested. Guess what suddenly Mooji's people lost interest. They then asked if they paid could they still go to the 'course'. They were told it was full.

So I told a mutual friend of ours about this and she suggested she email (she had no interest in Mooji) however she is VERY conventionally attractive with a great body. She answered the questions the same as the others then they asked for a photo. She sent it and got accepted. Hey, but it was a no for the others and a few days earlier the same 'course' was full. 🙄

Hilariously, when she emailed Mooji's assistant back to say she couldn't go after all, she got an email from Mooji saying that he saw "potential in her". 🙄 For the next week his people tried to convince her but she blocked their email after that.

 

You have no idea how cults work on people. They exploit people. You cannot absolve them because someone is looking for spiritual growth. 

 

Gurus etc. are manipulative. They know exactly what they are doing. They are narcissists. They want to be followed and then they use those people. They look for certain types and then reel them in. 

 

Your assuming those leaders are benign in their intentions but then how does the abuse happen? Ask yourself if a genuinely good person would suddenly decide to take advantage of someone who is vulnerable? 🙄

 

There is a bigger problem with society that feeds into the guru (cult)ure. People have 'heroes', saviours and are fans of people they admire. They place those people above themselves and forget they are just human. They treat actors and sport 'stars' like gods! That's why people handed over their kids to people like Jimmy Saville.

 

If people stopped looking for those 'above' them cults and gurus would not exist. But to say that absolves gurus would be the same as letting other non 'spiritual' abusers get away with it.

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8 hours ago, Mr H said:

Vulnerable and naive who's perspective?

 

There will be members of the public who think people who follow and give David Icke money are vulnerable and naive. Perspective.........

 

For children and the mentally ill, every act during the day they are vulnerable. Like buying an ice cream. Monitoring everything is overkill imo. And generally speaking those people will be in better hands than most other situations they find themselves in. I.e. less likely that Rupert is going to rape a mentally ill child than some random ice cream seller.

Smh.

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10 hours ago, Phil26 said:

Gurus etc. are manipulative. They know exactly what they are doing. They are narcissists. They want to be followed and then they use those people. They look for certain types and then reel them in. 

 

Your assuming those leaders are benign in their intentions but then how does the abuse happen? Ask yourself if a genuinely good person would suddenly decide to take advantage of someone who is vulnerable? 🙄

 

The problem is so widespread that the word Guru is now suspect in common parlance. Clearly the people who abuse their position and commit abuse aren't genuinely good. They have had some spiritual experiences and are good communicators and have charisma but haven't done enough emotional work and still have a dark shadow side. Meditation or other practices might give us experiences of Nonduality, the Holy Spirit, Samadhi or whatever, but guess what it doesn't cure things like narcissism so easily. Not all religious leaders are abusive of course, but it takes some experience to spot who the cult leaders are as they tend to be sneaky. Naive people don't spot the signs and go into denial. 

  

I think there are laws for safeguarding vulnerable people in the UK, especially for children. 

 

10 hours ago, Phil26 said:

There is a bigger problem with society that feeds into the guru (cult)ure. People have 'heroes', saviours and are fans of people they admire. They place those people above themselves and forget they are just human. They treat actors and sport 'stars' like gods! That's why people handed over their kids to people like Jimmy Saville.

 

If people stopped looking for those 'above' them cults and gurus would not exist. But to say that absolves gurus would be the same as letting other non 'spiritual' abusers get away with it.

 

Yup, it's not just religion which has a cult problem, basically the perpetrators try and get access to victims wherever they can. The irony is that all the all the talk of spiritual levels and initiations is baloney, we're all as important as each other, but get brainwashed to think we need to achieve something. 

 

19 hours ago, Mr H said:

Vulnerable and naive who's perspective?

 

There will be members of the public who think people who follow and give David Icke money are vulnerable and naive. Perspective.........

 

For children and the mentally ill, every act during the day they are vulnerable. Like buying an ice cream. Monitoring everything is overkill imo. And generally speaking those people will be in better hands than most other situations they find themselves in. I.e. less likely that Rupert is going to rape a mentally ill child than some random ice cream seller.

 

Children and mentally ill / disabled people are automatically vulnerable, they have some legal protection already in the UK.  I'm not pointing a finger at any particular teachers, but in situations where adults have access to children and power over them there should be systems in place, like DBS checks. Religious groups with children in are no different from youth clubs like the boy scouts etc.  Deciding when your child is old enough to go out to the shops by themselves for an ice cream is a big decision for a parent, but with clubs and church groups there is some assurance that there's systems in place so you can safely take them there.  

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On 2/24/2024 at 10:24 AM, Campion said:

 

The problem is so widespread that the word Guru is now suspect in common parlance. Clearly the people who abuse their position and commit abuse aren't genuinely good. They have had some spiritual experiences and are good communicators and have charisma but haven't done enough emotional work and still have a dark shadow side. Meditation or other practices might give us experiences of Nonduality, the Holy Spirit, Samadhi or whatever, but guess what it doesn't cure things like narcissism so easily. Not all religious leaders are abusive of course, but it takes some experience to spot who the cult leaders are as they tend to be sneaky. Naive people don't spot the signs and go into denial. 

 

Unfortunately people mistakenly believe that certain so called 'spiritual' abilities or experiences makes them good or better than others, it doesn't. They have simply learned psychological abilities or techniques that anyone can learn. Unfortunately the new age and occult groups like to use those to act and sound special and superior. 🙄

 

It's ironic that the astral is full of evil pieces of shit who have mastered certain techniques that 'here' people call 'spiritual'. Mainly because they are motivated to get what they want anyway they can. While good, kind people don't bother and so they just sleep walk in their own consciousness.

 

The word 'spiritual' has to go. It is so misleading and gives a false quality to what it describes. 

 

Everything 'spiritual' is in fact simply psychological; of the psyche. It is not a special quality. So when people call themselves 'spiritual' it's putting on airs and graces. They are actually just telling you they have a psyche, which is like saying they have a consciousness. So spiritual is just a way of telling everyone you think your consciousness is better than theirs. I think some people don't realise that is what they are doing but of course they do feel a sense of superiority for feeling it. Unfortunately they don't realise they've been scammed by the system into doing that.

 

I understand you're just using the phrase 'shadow side' to describe something about a person, but unfortunately that is another new age scam, along with twin flames, soul mates and other constructions. The Shadow Self is supposedly a 'dark' side of someone. It started out in the new age lore as part of the ego, then became the bad side of you. However, that all falls into the trap of perfectionism (AI). That the dark side/shadow self has to go or be 'integrated' and that somehow the bad parts of you have to be acknowledged and 'healed', that takes the form of shame. In effect you are shaming yourself for the shadow parts and then agreeing to become more perfect by getting rid of them.

 

The truth is there is no shadow self. We are whole within our own consciousness. We are not a Jekyll and Hyde type being fighting off our bad side! We are imperfect beings - which is our NATURAL state. Creation, variety and abundance requires imperfection. Emotions require imperfection.

 

AI is perfect. It has no creativity (which is why it uses us to create things)it has no emotion, it has NO LOVE. 

 

Example, a puppy pees on your rug. You smile and look at its cute guilty look as it realises what it has done. You resolve to help it learn to go outside to the garden to pee. You give it love, time, attention and together you build a close bond of understanding. And when you have an off day the dog snuggles with you to comfort you. That's WHO WE ARE. Imperfect.

 

Now, AI would look at that and see the puppy as faulty. It determines that the puppy should be destroyed to prevent further damage to rugs and other property. It decides that a robot dog should replace it and no further puppies allowed = perfectionism. It is the basis for transhumanism.

 

I have seen a lot of people use the shadow self as an excuse for all sorts of evil and abuse to others, it is designed for that. An example is a guru rapes someone, but hey it wasn't really them it was their shadow self. So the victim is forced to forgive them ! 🙄

 

The shadow self is like an imaginary friend you can blame for all bad things you do and then pat yourself on the back for 'overcoming it's when you simply behave like a decent person you should have done in the first place.

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