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Rishi Sunak defends his plan to phase out smoking


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"While I'm glad that fewer young people are taking up smoking cigarettes - presumably because they are so unaffordable now - it is disheartening to see so many youngsters, even many under the age of 16, puffing away on cheap disposable vape devices instead."

 

So you'd prefer it if they were smoking tobacco? I'm not sure about that.

 

Kids will experiment and there's nothing you can do to stop it - it's a part of life. 

 

And you'll also be pleased to know that youth smoking rates in Europe (in general) have been plummeting since the early 2000s. This is the curious little detail that the media never bothers to mention in its reports on "youth vaping". Watch the last part of the video I posted above for a fairly accurate breakdown of kids n' vapes.  Right now the media have been playing up this "kids vaping" thing to downplay the fact that, you know, hundreds of thousands of lives are being saved by smokers who successfully switch over to vaping. It's complete nonsense and playing right into big tobacco's hands. I believe it's called a distraction - with the added bonus of sending hundreds thousands to their inevitable deaths, which in turn gets rid of those pesky old folks who are just leeching off the state and not working or paying any taxes. For those in government or wealthy shareholders in a tobacco firm, it's a win/win situation.

 

The fact that the only real debate is "save our children from evil vapes" - we can rest assured that big tobacco doesn't have any secret "scientific revelation" tucked up their sleeves that will scare us all into throwing away our vapes. No, it all boils down to that bloke or woman in the corner shop who sells ciggies/vapes to school kids who should be fined and punished by law. I'm not sure why we're not just going after them - instead of the entire vaping industry, as they are now?

 

None of it makes any sense, unless you see the bigger picture and accept that we, as a species, are doing a mighty fine job of killing ourselves so others can profit - and we're even paying for the service.

 

I just want to repeat that stat I mentioned earlier, just to drill in the fact that it's not wars that are killing us -

 

If current trends continue, over 1 billion people will die from smoking related illnesses in this century alone.

 

To put this in perspective, over 80 million died in WW1 and 2 combined. That's less than 10% of future smoking deaths - and with the invention of the safer alternative, that's vaping, these deaths should now be classified as completely avoidable.

 

When was the last time we saw a memorial for "the fallen" from tobacco in your local town square?

 

As for the UK specifically - it's worth mentioning that both Rishi and his other half are Indian - and India banned vapes outright about two or three years ago. This might give you an indication of where he's going to try and take this.

 

 

Edited by ArchonBeliever25421932
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On 10/10/2023 at 3:10 PM, shabbirss said:

ah politicians, busy creating more problems than solutions. everywhere.

 

oh wait, without problems, they would be jobless!
 

 

 

Exactly, creating problems stimulates economy. It must be regulated so needs a regulatory body, jobs for the boys, it must be Policed and Enforced so fines to the system.  They'll need a Civil Servant to watch over it. If they decide to Police it with CCTV they employ a company to install and monitor, some one will have a nice contract. 

 

If they can create more criminals They'll need more prisons, that's a large contract and it'll need staffing that's more money for the Prison system more employees paying tax. Those prison guards will probably need counselling do that's money to doctors and everyone will need inclusively and diversion or you are a racist/bigot training.

 

Well need Common purpose in there.

 

The lawyer will have to work out the laws.

 

The list goes on and on.

 

There's no profit in solving problems and working efficiently only inefficiency and over management can generate revenue

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7 hours ago, ArchonBeliever25421932 said:

So you'd prefer it if they were smoking tobacco? I'm not sure about that.

 

That's not what I said. I am glad that fewer younger people are taking up smoking tobacco, but it seems to me that vaping is being promoted as some kind of substitute.

 

I would prefer if people did neither.

 

 

Never start vaping, says 12-year-old girl with lung damage

Quote

A 12-year-old girl who suffered a lung collapse and spent four days in an induced coma has told the BBC that children should never start vaping.

Sarah Griffin had asthma and was a heavy vaper when she was rushed to hospital with breathing problems a month ago.

Her mum Mary told the BBC she feared she was going to lose her daughter.

The UK government has announced plans to restrict the marketing and sale of vapes targeted at children.

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said the proposals - which are open for public consultation for the next eight weeks - would "reverse the worrying rise in youth vaping" by making vapes less colourful and less appealing to children.

Health Secretary Steve Barclay said the government was committed to taking immediate legislative action following the consultation, telling BBC Radio 4's Today programme "head teachers are concerned, parents are concerned, about our children being targeted" by vape companies.

from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67081855

 

Children can't afford to buy cigarettes now, and haven't been able to for several years, which was great.

 

E-cigarettes and the original vapes should have remained as smoking cessation aids.

 

Vapes should never have been allowed to become a new 'lifestyle' alternative.

 

Quote

It was the first thing she did in the morning and the last thing she did at night - sleeping with the vape on her pillow.

Even though it's illegal to sell vapes to anyone under the age of 18, Sarah bought vapes over the counter and became addicted to the nicotine hit.

Sarah's asthma and the fact she was not good at using her preventative inhaler left her at risk of complications.

 

They still contain nicotine, which is addictive. I'd probably be less bothered by this if someone had invented nicotine-free vapes.

 

For that reason, I would disagree with anyone who considers vapes to be 'harmless'.

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On 10/8/2023 at 11:13 AM, LastOneLeftInTheCounty said:

Today They Came For the Smokers; Tomorrow it Will be the Coffee Drinkers

 
The Prime Minister has shown us his limited originality by adopting Jacinda Arden’s policy of phasing out smoking. The arguments for this policy are poor. The argument is, in short, that smoking causes health problems, and that it costs the NHS and hence the government and hence the taxpayer a lot of money. There is some truth to the first part: but the second part is nonsense. The taxes on tobacco are colossal: and it is quite possible that the expectant lives of the Methuselahs untroubled by sudden death in their fifties, sixties and seventies, and who survive into their nineties and hundreds, will cost the NHS much more.
 
But the subject of tobacco cannot be understood unless we relate it to coffee, to alcohol, to technology, and to politics. And my particular point is about coffee, since I would like to predict that at some point in the future our rulers will announce that we should no longer drink coffee. It will be banned, or phased out. Everyone will pretend they did not drink it. Netflix will show nostalgic and accusatory programmes in which almost everyone in the past is depicted as chain-drinking coffee. In some countries coffee cups in old films will be blurred out by the censor. Sterling Hayden told Joan Crawford in Johnny Guitar that a man only needs “a cup of coffee and a smoke”. Modern film critics will wonder how such a line was passed by the censor.
 
 

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/10/08/today-they-came-for-the-smokers-tomorrow-it-will-be-the-coffee-drinkers/

 

 

I reckon National Income / GDP would collapse without coffee.

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57 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebestein said:

 

 

I reckon National Income / GDP would collapse without coffee.

Agreed, it built the modern world by putting boot to ass every morning.

I always get shit done when drinking coffee but-

 

Im finding it too acidic and the headaches are getting annoying so switched back to green tea, I’m not doing half as much work than I was when I was chugging a couple of mugs of ol joe every day.

Sleep as well, I can’t sleep if I’ve been drinking coffee that day. 
 

Also, it’s addictive.

 

The cons outweigh the pros 

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7 hours ago, LastOneLeftInTheCounty said:

Agreed, it built the modern world by putting boot to ass every morning.

I always get shit done when drinking coffee but-

 

Im finding it too acidic and the headaches are getting annoying so switched back to green tea, I’m not doing half as much work than I was when I was chugging a couple of mugs of ol joe every day.

Sleep as well, I can’t sleep if I’ve been drinking coffee that day. 
 

Also, it’s addictive.

 

The cons outweigh the pros 

 

 

Yeah, I probably should cut back. Often  the first cup of the day gives me mild indigestion, though after that it's fine. That said, I should really use a smaller mug. I have 2 jumbo mugs that can hold 700ml , so I regularly drink 500ml (the product of my cafetiere),  so each mug is 2 normal mugs. 4 of those, is in fact 8 normal cups!!

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5 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebestein said:

 

 

Yeah, I probably should cut back. Often  the first cup of the day gives me mild indigestion, though after that it's fine. That said, I should really use a smaller mug. I have 2 jumbo mugs that can hold 700ml , so I regularly drink 500ml (the product of my cafetiere),  so each mug is 2 normal mugs. 4 of those, is in fact 8 normal cups!!

That’s a lot of joe, surprised you’re sleeping at night! 
 

I’ve only got a mini cafeteier, enough for one cup, which I refill with water for a weaker second cup! Skinflint! 

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That 12 year old girl story is precisely what the media/big tobacco want you to believe.

 

Let's take it one step at at time... no, hold on, there really is only one step here...

 

" 12 year old heavy vaper with asthma"

 

Who the hell is selling vapes to a 12 year old? 

 

If someone sold a car to a 12 year old and they crashed it and killed someone - would you blame the car?  No, you'd probably want to know who the hell sold it to her and then arrest them. It's the same analogy. Although the stupidity level here is really through the roof. How does a 12 year old become a "heavy vaper"? I started smoking around the same age (as did most of my friends) and nobody became a "heavy smoker" for at least two to three years later. You don't just wake up a heavy smoker/vaper - so let's think logically here; Either she was vaping well before this episode or something is amiss. 

 

I say she's asthmatic and had an asthma attack that caused her lung to collapse - some kids are born with a poor respiratory tract - this is a fact of life (and increased pollution) and just knowing she had asthma should have been enough for her two brain cells to realise that "maybe" this isn't the smartest thing to be doing. Crucially, there is no verifiable scientific proof that vapes can do anything even remotely as damaging as this. Unless, of course, we are to take this rags words as gospel? Because when did a tabloid ever tell a lie? There is a good reason why they're nicknamed "the gutter press".

 

I also don't suppose anyone bothered to arrest/question the parents or shopkeeper for their reckless negligence? No, it would be far easier to remove an effective smoking cessation device which could save millions of lives from the market, rather than tell her parents they're shit at their job and should be punished/fined accordingly.

 

It's called censoring the masses to protect the few. Unless you hadn't noticed, in the UK this is considered an art. They're not just experts at it - they wrote the manual. Most of the draconian measures brought in by (mostly Tory) governments have been slyly and deviously passed into law using this very tactic. They don't care about saving lives, they care about what generates most money for them or their wealthy friends in high places. Oh, and 'control' - they really have a hard-on about controlling the population and limiting their freedoms, precisely because it makes them susceptible to these kinds of newspaper articles. This is what is at play here.

 

Or you can call it just plain stupid, whichever you prefer.

 

These are exactly the kinds of stories the media/big tobacco want out there so they can fool people into somehow thinking "it's best to just keep smoking the ciggies".

 

The tragedy is that people don't question these absurd stories and just take them to heart. 

 

 

Edited by ArchonBeliever25421932
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  • 3 weeks later...

Thought I'd give this a bump because, as predicted, Tricky Rishi's probably got his sights on vapes now - and, just like assisted suicide/mass-shootings in the USA and how they're reported in the media - neither the government or the Guardian pick up on this little detail which really overshadows everything. 

 

https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/the-economics-of-tobacco

 

A study commissioned by the US tobacco company Philip Morris published in 2000 examined the economic impact of smoking on the Czech Republic. It concluded that tobacco smoking provided a net benefit to the economy, largely because of “reduced health care costs” and “savings on pensions and housing costs for the elderly” that would not have to be paid since smokers die earlier than non-smokers. 

 

Meanwhile, ignoring all of that -

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/07/tax-on-vapes-could-be-part-of-plans-to-create-a-smokefree-generation-in-uk

 

The move to tax vapes was one of the few surprise measures in a speech that appeared largely designed to create dividing lines with Labour as Sunak battles to lift the Conservatives’ dire poll ratings before the next election.

 

Smoking costs the UK £17bn a year, according to the government, including £14bn through lost productivity and £3bn on the NHS and care system, dwarfing the £10bn income from taxes on tobacco products.

 

So which one is right? I'm pretty sure the cost of living the UK is going to be just a bit higher than in the Czech Republic? Which would significantly tip the scales in favour of smokers dying early earning the government one heck of a large sum each year. Lost productivity? Most smokers will lose about ten years - they're not losing any productivity because they'll be retired by that point - or only just retired, which is even more tragic when you think about it.

 

Are we being deceived here? Make it look like they're going after tobacco - but the real sting is the tax on vapes which they're hoping people won't pay much attention to. One little tax here, one little tax there, slowly, bit by bit, over time.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ArchonBeliever25421932
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7 hours ago, sock muppet said:

Definitely on my list of things to do, 👍

 

Any idea how to go about it? Heard somewhere that it's not legal, I haven't seen any plants/seeds etc in the UK.

 

Pretty sure it does have potent health effects - either for good or for worse depending on usage. Makes a decent insecticide too. Pretty potent are natural tobacco plants. You need gloves to handle/harvest them etc due to the highly available nicotine content.

 

I've heard rumours that most of the cancer deaths are actually due to the tobacco plants' uptake of available heavy metals - the commercial crops being fertilised with phosphate sources heavily contaminated with radioactive materials (uranium etc) which exist in the same mines.

 

Not sure if there's any truth in this, but my gran always used to say that cigarette ash is extremely toxic.

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In 2007 after the indoor smoking ban I saw a coaster in a bar that listed all of the chemicals in cigarettes, one being polonium 210. I thought at the time; that was what we were told killed Litvinenko!

 

I just googled polonium in tobacco and found this link, which is interesting; 

 

https://news.cancerresearchuk.org/2008/08/29/radioactive-polonium-in-cigarette-smoke/

 

Health & Medicine
Radioactive polonium in cigarette smoke

by Ed Yong | Analysis
29 August 2008

 

And this is a 'general's snippet from google; Radioactive materials, like polonium-210 and lead-210 are found naturally in the soil and air. They are also found in the high-phosphate fertilizers that farmers use on their crops. Polonium-210 and lead-210 get into and onto tobacco leaves and remain there even after the tobacco has been processed.

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38 minutes ago, Observations said:

Polonium-210 and lead-210 get into and onto tobacco leaves and remain there even after the tobacco has been processed.

 

Yeah that's the one! Supposedly some plants are rapid uptakers of these heavy metals. The hemp/cannabis plant is another.

 

Polonium 210 apparently has a half-life of 138 days, however lead 210 has a half-life of 22 years!

 

Maybe the smokeables of today are best put aside for the great grandkids to enjoy ⌛🤔

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7 hours ago, Observations said:

And this is a 'general's snippet from google; Radioactive materials, like polonium-210 and lead-210 are found naturally in the soil and air. They are also found in the high-phosphate fertilizers that farmers use on their crops. Polonium-210 and lead-210 get into and onto tobacco leaves and remain there even after the tobacco has been processed.

 

Sounds like polonium is on all the other crops where they use phosphate fertiliser too ...

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15 hours ago, Chris P said:

Any idea how to go about it? Heard somewhere that it's not legal, I haven't seen any plants/seeds etc in the UK

 

I will get back to you on this, i have videos on how-to, there are plenty of web sites that show how it's done, nicotine though is not just in tobacco it is in fact in a lot of vegetables and is an essential ingredient for healthy living and not addictive, it is all the other crap that they stick in tobacco that does the damage as @Observations has already pointed out.

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31 minutes ago, sock muppet said:

 

I will get back to you on this, i have videos on how-to, there are plenty of web sites that show how it's done, nicotine though is not just in tobacco it is in fact in a lot of vegetables and is an essential ingredient for healthy living and not addictive, it is all the other crap that they stick in tobacco that does the damage as @Observations has already pointed out.

I think all the nightshades (spuds, toms etc) have some, but such a low amount that smoking them wouldn't do much. I'm sure there are others

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16 hours ago, Chris P said:

 

Any idea how to go about it? Heard somewhere that it's not legal, I haven't seen any plants/seeds etc in the UK.

 

Pretty sure it does have potent health effects - either for good or for worse depending on usage. Makes a decent insecticide too. Pretty potent are natural tobacco plants. You need gloves to handle/harvest them etc due to the highly available nicotine content.

 

I've heard rumours that most of the cancer deaths are actually due to the tobacco plants' uptake of available heavy metals - the commercial crops being fertilised with phosphate sources heavily contaminated with radioactive materials (uranium etc) which exist in the same mines.

 

Not sure if there's any truth in this, but my gran always used to say that cigarette ash is extremely toxic.

I think it must be legal as I found this article from BBC Gardeners World https://www.gardenersworld.com/how-to/grow-plants/how-to-grow-to-tobacco-plant-nicotiana/

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On 10/5/2023 at 5:20 PM, LastOneLeftInTheCounty said:

Like with most good, useful things, it’s been jumped on, exploited for profit and made into a toxic lethal shitshow by this f***ed up culture. 

 

On 11/8/2023 at 12:44 PM, ArchonBeliever25421932 said:

Thought I'd give this a bump because, as predicted, Tricky Rishi's probably got his sights on vapes now - and, just like assisted suicide/mass-shootings in the USA and how they're reported in the media - neither the government or the Guardian pick up on this little detail which really overshadows everything. 

 

https://ash.org.uk/resources/view/the-economics-of-tobacco

 

On 11/8/2023 at 2:28 PM, k_j_evans said:

Is it time to start growing tobacco?

 

On 11/8/2023 at 4:25 PM, sock muppet said:

Definitely on my list of things to do, 👍

 

16 hours ago, Chris P said:

I've heard rumours that most of the cancer deaths are actually due to the tobacco plants' uptake of available heavy metals - the commercial crops being fertilised with phosphate sources heavily contaminated with radioactive materials (uranium etc) which exist in the same mines.

 

Not sure if there's any truth in this, but my gran always used to say that cigarette ash is extremely toxic.

 

26 minutes ago, k_j_evans said:
16 hours ago, Chris P said:

I think it must be legal as I found this article from BBC Gardeners World https://www.gardenersworld.com/how-to/grow-plants/how-to-grow-to-tobacco-plant-nicotiana/

 

So many fascinating comments on these 2 pages. Thanks especially for the bump ArchonBeliever25421932, and for sharing your Grans words, Chris P, it really brought back some thoughts from ... when? Crikey is it really over 16 years ago. Cheers again for exploring this subject which is not as black and white as it seems. I'm always curious about Hitler's 'ban' of tobacco and intermittently look up the  old posters. I'd like to learn more about that. 

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1 hour ago, k_j_evans said:

Probably others as well as nightshades. Perhaps the Blackadder episode with people smoking the newly-discovered potato wasn't so far off after all...

 

I quit smoking ages ago, but there's some garden flowers called nicotiana which are a close relative of the tobacco plant. 

 

Oh and if you want the real thing try searching ebay for "tobacco seeds". Golden Virginia came top of the list, I remember that from rollups! 

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3 hours ago, Campion said:

 

I quit smoking ages ago, but there's some garden flowers called nicotiana which are a close relative of the tobacco plant. 

 

Oh and if you want the real thing try searching ebay for "tobacco seeds". Golden Virginia came top of the list, I remember that from rollups! 

Turkish Izmir tobacco seeds are the doggies nuts, taste is like cream. 

 

4 hours ago, Observations said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

So many fascinating comments on these 2 pages. Thanks especially for the bump ArchonBeliever25421932, and for sharing your Grans words, Chris P, it really brought back some thoughts from ... when? Crikey is it really over 16 years ago. Cheers again for exploring this subject which is not as black and white as it seems. I'm always curious about Hitler's 'ban' of tobacco and intermittently look up the  old posters. I'd like to learn more about that. 

Didn’t know hitler banned tobacco, tell me more.

 

Why do insane authoritarian power crazed government types always ban anything indigenous? 
Because everything indigenous is based in the unseen realm, the spirit world, and with that knowledge we can beat their mind control, their spells have no power

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4 hours ago, Campion said:

 

I quit smoking ages ago, but there's some garden flowers called nicotiana which are a close relative of the tobacco plant. 

 

Oh and if you want the real thing try searching ebay for "tobacco seeds". Golden Virginia came top of the list, I remember that from rollups! 

Not Old Holborn? Shame.

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8 hours ago, sock muppet said:

I will get back to you on this, i have videos on how-to, there are plenty of web sites that show how it's done, nicotine though is not just in tobacco it is in fact in a lot of vegetables and is an essential ingredient for healthy living and not addictive, it is all the other crap that they stick in tobacco that does the damage as @Observations has already pointed out.

 

Cheers, yeah would definitively be interested in learning about the harvesting and processing. 

 

Not too sure about the vegetables thing.. isn't that nicotinic acid (niacin) in most of them rather than available nicotine? I know the nightshade (tobacco family) includes potato and tomato as well as tobacco, but most species contain some other really nasty alkaloids too. Maybe tobacco does too and it's destroyed during processing? 

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