Being a force for good - a choice

[Mr H]

Before humans came along there was no  good or bad.

 

What is good or bad?

 

At its core it's a human thought. It doesn't exist anywhere else. It's human concepts and interpretations combined with our natural survival instinct ( probably survive longer if you're nice to people).

 

We tend to think of the universe or god as inherently good. This is just human thinking.

 

I would argue there is no such thing as good or bad, outside of our minds.

 

If we wish to see "good" in the world then the only way is for you to be good, it doesn't exist independently of you.

[Mr H]

I would also argue that concepts such as heaven and hell, karma etc are there to guilt trip you into being "good". And one could argue to control you so you don't get any not good thoughts and rise up. Not to say there are no consequences but not as portrayed in the above

 

There are no such things in my experience.

[Campion]

Hi @Mr H an interesting idea but I'm not quite convinced yet. What examples of good/bad are there which aren't linked in some way to the survival and prospering of either the individual or group? 'Cos animals have instincts to protect themselves, their young, their territory, food supply etc which is their version of good & bad. It exists within their minds too. Isn't ours the same, but with a load of abstract verbiage layered on top to make it sound all fancy and intellectual? 

[Mr H]

9 minutes ago, Campion said:

Hi @Mr H an interesting idea but I'm not quite convinced yet. What examples of good/bad are there which aren't linked in some way to the survival and prospering of either the individual or group? 'Cos animals have instincts to protect themselves, their young, their territory, food supply etc which is their version of good & bad. It exists within their minds too. Isn't ours the same, but with a load of abstract verbiage layered on top to make it sound all fancy and intellectual? 

I would suggest that survival instinct and intelligence is different from the human concept of there being "good" and "bad". Good decisions and bad decisions - based on intelligence and achieving an outcome rather than a general concept of it being good.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Mr H

[Mr H]

Because good is a human thought. Humans are all different and experience different thoughts. It is difficult to ask the question why does God allow evil in the world? when good to one human is another's evil......

[Campion]

6 hours ago, Mr H said:

Because good is a human thought. Humans are all different and experience different thoughts. It is difficult to ask the question why does God allow evil in the world? when good to one human is another's evil......

 

Ok. Good and evil, love and hate are very broad terms which cover a lot of things. Tho I don't believe in that type of God so it's not a theological problem for me. 

[Jason57]

I would disagree with the part: (probably survive longer if you're nice to people). In my experience the good die young and pricks last forever.

[Rolandson]

https://www.ickonic.com/Read/r/how-do-i-raise-my-vibration-spirituality-tips-for-living-a-high-vibe-life

 

Which book fron Dr. Hawkings is that from?

[Certified Green of Heart]

  

On 7/29/2023 at 1:24 PM, Campion said:

Hi @Mr H an interesting idea but I'm not quite convinced yet. What examples of good/bad are there which aren't linked in some way to the survival and prospering of either the individual or group? 'Cos animals have instincts to protect themselves, their young, their territory, food supply etc which is their version of good & bad. It exists within their minds too. Isn't ours the same, but with a load of abstract verbiage layered on top to make it sound all fancy and intellectual? 

 

Good paragraph Campion, captures the idea of questioning an idea really well, hehe..  I like the last line especially.. My verbiage will most likely commence now, but I try to keep it naturalistic.....I am naturalistic to the bone I am! (ok not as a caveman though, almost, but not quite) 

 

So I have liked a couple a posts above IN GOOD SPIRIT (it must be good because I said so)  but which *I* at least still maybe remaining just a little confused about between what Campion and you Mr H are each saying or are you both more or less seeming to reach the same? conclusion? Noooot sure with that!.... as I am not feeling quite my brightest atm.

 

On 7/29/2023 at 1:33 PM, Mr H said:

Good decisions and bad decisions - based on intelligence and achieving an outcome rather than a general concept of it being good.

 

It was a bad decision for me to try to come up with a reasonable outcome to this problem  whilst feeling part evil and part good. ((just kidding)) but "I" (or whoever) in this example - let's say have sufficient cognitive abilities on multiple holistic and well appointed intelligences by the one person knowing of him or herself,,,, where by that knowing, the preservation of natural balance is more assured, than by the artifice used by comparison in modern man....

 

But better yet and a hell of a lot more natural as for the afore-mentioned holistic mind, of open-ended intuition, where the self governing state, is that "I" (or whoever) am (are) protected (in our own minds duality as the case maybe) by concepts of good & evil until something of the one upsets the balance of the other one on one...... but a non denial of each is a start, if any of this has any merit what I say and nooooo I am not really suggesting I am evil, but by thinking what is possible by evil and by simultaneously keeping it in check  but if on the other hoof "good" were serving as my ego, or was good egoless, either one is still better than carrying out blatant evil to satisfy an unfulfilling life or whatsoever wherein the only ego would be the entirely selfish and evil centered ego. That would be an obvious example of a Yin Yang DUALITY, but where DUALITY let's say is not that obvious due to the merging and blurring sometimes of good vs evil or one even complimenting the other, but let's say DUALITY to some degree exists all the same... and we are not really naming names, but at extremes it becomes clear what thing is which is my point, and LOTS of stuff in the mind especially by a human, can be done to mitigate that..... Meditation is obviously a good start, but then learning creature habits again as if we were an animal is also a nice holistic and naturalistic notion to uphold, but not merely as a playful construct, I mean as a real nature inspired thing!

 

On 7/29/2023 at 1:33 PM, Mr H said:

- based on intelligence and achieving an outcome rather than a general concept of it being good.

 

I've left off the~ "Good decisions and bad decisions" ~part out, because let's say despite intelligence, which no-one ever seems to use anyway in the zombie town I live in, the achieving as you say, especially for an animal, seems a relatively simple choice if that was your meaning Mr H. and therefore the outcome of that choice was a rationale most intuitive and useful to that animal...... of living in the moment and being primed well enough in its' selectivity of thought (but NOT just linear and NOT just abstract) rather mainly based on neeeeeeed, if that can be assumed the main awareness for how an animal knows what it neeeeeeds to do, and focuses mainly on that...

Need isn't necessarily good or bad, but for good or for bad, just is. You see, it's inescapable just like it was for me there seeming to refute my own sentence, but I was not, I was just pointing to either, as if each were one and the same, but with the outcome attributed to the "knowing instinct" of an animal where realizing what it needs, it sort of stops there I guess..

To add to the controversy however I would say with an overall greater sensory magnitude found in quite of lot of animals (yes compared to us- insult intended - barring no human whatsoever) and with that are much higher equipped than a human for appreciating depth of sensation or feeling, leaving it you would think smarter than us by certain sensory feedbacks and maybe they are smarter in these ways, but as an animal being, creature instincts are all that matter to them since their behaviour is without prejudice by forming opinions by thinking what is right or wrong ... To Eat is right if any thing is right...
The natural order of nature is more self maintaining by it's natural balance than anything a human does.. as others, might be thinking too.....
and as I've kind of said already, from my inarguably (lol) wild imagination, I think the animal probably doesn't use much of its' sensory superiority for moral weighing up but rather utilizes it for just better hunting to put it bluntly... but that as far as the animal is concerned - intelligence well used for the kill to survive is good (at least for it)...and thus 'moral' IN A SORT OF WAY simply because it has survived and its' living karma is helped by a dead animals karma but at least the dead helped another animal be what it is
by being compelled to do what it needed to do survive.....Even when at times that can work out quite unfair, but not nearly as mind blowingly unfair as when humans get involved to shake things up (usually for the worse).... and either way for any specie, man or beast, I grant you, doesn't in any case paint a very pretty picture of the world I know and as a vegan I am VERY conscious of this, yet that is the world of nature, and the presence of mankind and all his or her many thought concepts try to excuse mankind's violence with a whole host of rhetoric thanks to size of the human intellect, where clouds, smoke ad mirrors are all part of the package to cover up the grisly aspects of an almost or entirely undercover industry of unfair treatment of animals monopolizing the wealth by the human dominant power that mankind has brought to bear (or bare?)......

 

but my point is also who will excuse the animal by which is free to be in nature, except to realize it just does without thinking (*excuse not needed alert I guess*) almost I would suggest owing to them being so well adapted, and so in a way does what it does without thinking.... This is the primordial nature of reasoned balance between life and death, but it's easy for us to view that as abhorent, as we assume to be above that, but we are not many of us, as I think this thread recognizes. Mankind is the best and most definitely THE WORST of what nature has naturally engineered, (or okay some say we came from partial alien DNA) but so much about humans has become artificial now that we hardly know what is happening to our own species, let alone other species.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Certified Green of Heart