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Maxwells Demon


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The Osmotic Power Plant in Norway is what i consider to be a working example of Maxwell's Demon Hypothesis.

 

Maxwell theorized an imaginary being that could order a system for you, or in other words, do work. So for instance if a 'Demon' could be made to live in a battery, and that battery had a trap door between its positive and negative ends. Once the battery has depleted and the positive and negative electrons are mixed up, the demon could open the trap door when a positive electron passes by and let it back into the positive end. In this way, the demon would re-order the electrons in the battery and reset it for use again.

 

Well obviously this all sounds a bit 'flaky', but is it.

 

I propose that naturally occurring phenomena could be 'Maxwells' Demon' if employed or rather exploited in systems for gain, and that the Osmotic Power plant built in Norway is, perhaps an example, or the realization of Maxwells' theory.
 

 

Statkraft Osmotic Power Plant

 

Osmosis technology
Osmosis is a natural process used to generate power by considering the enormous energy released when freshwater meets saltwater. In this process, the water is transported through a semi-permeable membrane – an organic filter with extremely small holes.

 

The plant incorporates two chambers separated by an artificial membrane to store freshwater and saltwater. The pressure generated by the transfer of water through the membrane in one direction is used to generate electricity.

 

The pressure in the seawater chamber will be increased as the salt in the seawater draws the freshwater through the membrane.

The plant uses hundreds of meters of pipes to channel saltwater and freshwater into the power plant. The pressure generated will be equal to that of a 120m water column and can be used in a driving turbine to generate electricity.

 

 

Link - https://www.power-technology.com/projects/statkraft-osmotic/

 

 

Maxwells Demon

 

Maxwell's demon is a thought experiment that would hypothetically violate the second law of thermodynamics. It was proposed by the physicist James Clerk Maxwell in 1867.[1] In his first letter, Maxwell referred to the entity as a "finite being" or a "being who can play a game of skill with the molecules". Lord Kelvin would later call it a "demon."[2]

 

In the thought experiment, a demon controls a small massless door between two chambers of gas. As individual gas molecules (or atoms) approach the door, the demon quickly opens and closes the door to allow only fast-moving molecules to pass through in one direction, and only slow-moving molecules to pass through in the other. Because the kinetic temperature of a gas depends on the velocities of its constituent molecules, the demon's actions cause one chamber to warm up and the other to cool down. This would decrease the total entropy of the system, without applying any work, thereby violating the second law of thermodynamics.

 

The concept of Maxwell's demon has provoked substantial debate in the philosophy of science and theoretical physics, which continues to the present day. It stimulated work on the relationship between thermodynamics and information theory. Most scientists argue, on theoretical grounds, that no practical device can violate the second law in this way. Other researchers have implemented forms of Maxwell's demon in experiments, though they all differ from the thought experiment to some extent and none have been shown to violate the second law.

 

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_demon

 

 

 

And a picture for you - 

 

 

 

 

MaxDemon_zps6ccfb36c.jpg

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1 hour ago, pi3141 said:

Maxwell's demon is a thought experiment that would hypothetically violate the second law of thermodynamics. It was proposed by the physicist James Clerk Maxwell in 1867.[1] In his first letter, Maxwell referred to the entity as a "finite being" or a "being who can play a game of skill with the molecules". Lord Kelvin would later call it a "demon."[2]

 

On paper it works because the concept is sound and does not violate the known laws of physics, simply because as you have stated we are bathed in high energy atomic motion along side low energy atomic motion, but unlike the Osmosis experiment which is a passive filter the demon requires energy to perform the filtering and thereby cancels any benefit from the system that could be gained for useful work.

I have often thought about this experiment and unless the high energy level atoms are held in a containment field that separates completely the outside from that which is contained inside it is doomed to fail, the best expression of capturing this energy is the water wheel as depicted, through the heating of water into vapour to form rivers and capture as such with dams.

There is so much that is untapped in nature as it stands, and some of it is perfect not just for energy capture, but also eliminates such things as coastal erosion, 👍

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5 hours ago, webtrekker said:

The Statkraft Osmotic Power Plant was shelved years ago. Another non-starter in the Green Energy game.

 

Screenshot_20230613-095844_Chrome.jpg.557fb8d64fdaa35ac22d9356dbb038b4.jpg

 

 

 

 

Yeah so in other words, it is viable, its just money that stops it coming to market.

 

This is what pisses me off - we got the solutions to all our problems, it's just money that stops it happening- either they can't make enough or it would damage existing markets or they can't meter it.

 

We're going to Hell in a handbag - filled with good intentions.

 

(we'd love to save the planet but its just to damn expensive, so better we go to hell rich)

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26 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

Yeah so in other words, it is viable, its just money that stops it coming to market.

 

This is what pisses me off - we got the solutions to all our problems, it's just money that stops it happening- either they can't make enough or it would damage existing markets or they can't meter it.

 

We're going to Hell in a handbag - filled with good intentions.

 

(we'd love to save the planet but its just to damn expensive, so better we go to hell rich)

 

Bit like Tesla's Wardenclyffe Tower, stamped on by JP Morgan once he realised he wasn't going to make money on it.

 

 

 

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On 6/13/2023 at 3:35 PM, pi3141 said:

 

Yeah so in other words, it is viable, its just money that stops it coming to market.

 

This is what pisses me off - we got the solutions to all our problems, it's just money that stops it happening- either they can't make enough or it would damage existing markets or they can't meter it.

 

We're going to Hell in a handbag - filled with good intentions.

 

(we'd love to save the planet but its just to damn expensive, so better we go to hell rich)

Have they tried it on a different scale? Like width instead of height or thousands of mini osmotic reactions instead of one large tank? Could they add a catalyst to the water to make the process more forceful? Like even more salt on one side, and some kind of thinner or wetting agent on the freshwater side? 

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On 6/16/2023 at 4:48 PM, LastOneLeftInTheCounty said:

Have they tried it on a different scale? Like width instead of height or thousands of mini osmotic reactions instead of one large tank? Could they add a catalyst to the water to make the process more forceful? Like even more salt on one side, and some kind of thinner or wetting agent on the freshwater side? 

 

Don't know, didn't even realise they shut it down. I found the drawing on a photobucket account when they warned me they was closing free hosting, it came from a thread I started on the old forum. Thought I'd repost it.

 

It's potential needs investigating though, and it was successfully outputting power.

 

It's not the best idea by any means but it demonstrates we can find novel and clean energy production and I think it also  demonstrates Maxwells hypothesis/idea to be valid. 

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