Chicken & the egg, belief Vs reality

[Mr H]

The Power of belief is very strong. It can drive us to take actions, it can shape our reality and experience.

 

What I wanted to explore is, do our beliefs literally shape reality, or does reality shape our beliefs?

[sock muppet]

2 hours ago, Mr H said:

The Power of belief is very strong. It can drive us to take actions, it can shape our reality and experience.

 

What I wanted to explore is, do our beliefs literally shape reality, or does reality shape our beliefs?

 

Quantum Physics tells us that the chicken and the egg exist at the same time, believe it

[alexa]

35 minutes ago, sock muppet said:

 

Quantum Physics tells us that the chicken and the egg exist at the same time, believe it

 

A bit like that poor cat in a box 

[sock muppet]

3 hours ago, Mr H said:

The Power of belief is very strong. It can drive us to take actions, it can shape our reality and experience.

 

What I wanted to explore is, do our beliefs literally shape reality, or does reality shape our beliefs?

 

There is a kind of feed back loop that is occurring and that in turn does shape our beliefs, erroneous beliefs will fall by the wayside and be remembered as such, and instead of having the will or belief to make things happen on demand, like pulling a rabbit from a hat, is the wrong way to think of it, but rather more like a negotiation that is happening all the time without really being too much aware of it, synchronicity for me does try to explain this very well and provides me with a way to comprehend exactly the question you are asking, i also think that it is not the whole answer to your question, but does go someway to help in the experience that we are a part of and not separate from, and also allows for the expression of free will, it is a tough question to answer,

[Mr H]

I'm also wondering whether it's possible to experience "reality", or whether we have to always filter through our beliefs? Essentially making beliefs our reality, which would imply you can change reality via beliefs. Then I would question, if this is possible, what is reality?

[sock muppet]

9 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Then I would question, if this is possible, what is reality?

 

What you make of it is the simple answer, so make it a good one, not just for yourself but for others too, do right by them also and share the love,

[Mr H]

43 minutes ago, sock muppet said:

 

What you make of it is the simple answer, so make it a good one, not just for yourself but for others too, do right by them also and share the love,

Awesome philosophy 

[Origin]

41 minutes ago, Mr H said:

I'm also wondering whether it's possible to experience "reality", or whether we have to always filter through our beliefs? Essentially making beliefs our reality, which would imply you can change reality via beliefs. Then I would question, if this is possible, what is reality?

I'm also wondering whether it's possible to experience "reality",

Yes.

 

or whether we have to always filter through our beliefs?

Yes.

 

Essentially making beliefs our reality, which would imply you can change reality via beliefs.

No.

 

Then I would question, if this is possible, what is reality?

It does not exist. Reality is a human construct.

[Mr H]

2 minutes ago, Origin said:

I'm also wondering whether it's possible to experience "reality",

Yes.

 

or whether we have to always filter through our beliefs?

Yes.

 

Essentially making beliefs our reality, which would imply you can change reality via beliefs.

No.

 

Then I would question, if this is possible, what is reality?

It does not exist. Reality is a human construct.

Thx. Although bit confused because you say we can experience reality, then say it does not exist.  

 

If reality is a human construct, then reality doesn't exist without humans? What exists prior to human experience? 

[Origin]

9 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Thx. Although bit confused because you say we can experience reality, then say it does not exist.  

 

If reality is a human construct, then reality doesn't exist without humans? What exists prior to human experience? 

I did not refer to human reality. There is something else that exists. Your reality is a very thin membrane that has been created. To be able to endure it.

What exists? What was there long before us.

[Mr H]

9 minutes ago, Origin said:

I did not refer to human reality. There is something else that exists. Your reality is a very thin membrane that has been created. To be able to endure it.

What exists? What was there long before us.

Thanks think I understand.

 

When you say before we have to experience via our beliefs? Why is this? Can we not experience, pure experience without the filter of beliefs? Is this not meditation in a sense?

[Origin]

16 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Thanks think I understand.

 

When you say before we have to experience via our beliefs? Why is this? Can we not experience, pure experience without the filter of beliefs? Is this not meditation in a sense?

Start to determine whether the human word, the sum of all experiences, equals the truth. Unfiltered experience? No human knowledge can help you with this. This is only possible with direct assistance from the other side. Before that, you have to evaluate everything that comes from Humans. It could be that everything is based on incorrect information.

[Bombadil]

3 minutes ago, Origin said:

Start to determine whether the human word, the sum of all experiences, equals the truth. Unfiltered experience? No human knowledge can help you with this. This is only possible with direct assistance from the other side. Before that, you have to evaluate everything that comes from Humans. It could be that everything is based on incorrect information.

Serious question. What do you consider to be the other side?

[Origin]

14 minutes ago, Bombadil said:

Serious question. What do you consider to be the other side?

You are inseparable from the other side, which means that a certain aspect is still there. The question is where are you in the first place and why. And what is the dream and why does this dream have to end...Maybe we are all here to let go. 

[Bombadil]

1 minute ago, Origin said:

You are inseparable from the other side, which means that a certain aspect is still there. The question is where are you in the first place and why. And what is the dream and why does this dream have to end...Maybe we are all here to let go. 

Through many, many altered state past times in my younger days, I came to understand that the body is a restrictive form. In respect to how we interact in this apparent version of consciousness. Whilst letting go it always felt that the spark that I perceive through was free to wonder every imaginable reality. And myriads that would normally be impossible to conceive. 
In many instances I would receive visions of absolute emptiness. No colour or form. It felt completely non threatening. If anything, for want of a better word, welcoming. 
It always felt like I needed to do something to progress beyond this nothingness. Not on a harmful way. More that I needed greater understanding to be allowed to continue.

 

This occurred on hundreds of occasions. Same visions even whilst mates were doing normal mushroom induced activities( if there is such a thing!).

[DaleP]

I now know more or less, it was Chicken....first.

You can pop anything out of the thin air.

Creation/multiplication starts there onwards.

[Mr H]

1 hour ago, Origin said:

Start to determine whether the human word, the sum of all experiences, equals the truth. Unfiltered experience? No human knowledge can help you with this. This is only possible with direct assistance from the other side. Before that, you have to evaluate everything that comes from Humans. It could be that everything is based on incorrect information.

From my experience, the whole human experience is an illusion. So no truth to be found. The only things I can be certain of is there is knowing, being and I am. 

 

I would say everything that comes from humans is based on limited information, because humans are limited - and most Information is based upon the illusion, so kind of starting building the house on sand, I guess if we look for "the truth" or reality.

[alexa]

2 hours ago, Bombadil said:

In many instances I would receive visions of absolute emptiness. No colour or form. It felt completely non threatening. If anything, for want of a better word, welcoming. 

 

I have felt like this many times, completely at peace.

[Campion]

15 hours ago, Mr H said:

I'm also wondering whether it's possible to experience "reality", or whether we have to always filter through our beliefs? Essentially making beliefs our reality, which would imply you can change reality via beliefs. Then I would question, if this is possible, what is reality?

 

Changing reality through beliefs and human willpower is a good definition of magic and what those people doing rituals and spells are trying to effect. Both white and black magic are global phenomena throughout history, so at the very least this is a common idea throughout human societies everywhere. It also appears in New Age spirituality with memes such as 'you create your own reality', 'the law of attraction', etc. 

 

Also, reading this thread has just joined up this "dot" with another more modern "dot" of postmodernism for me. Postmodern posits the idea that language is at the root of all human knowledge and that even hard science is essentially a language game and can therefore be classified as relative truth, that's only true within its own language - ie belief system and culture. This sounds very much like a reworking of the same idea, rooted in philosophical idealism, that mind is more fundamental to reality than matter. So postmodernism is just a new variant on the ancient idea of magic. 

 

In any case, I keep (unsuccessfully) trying to wean myself off using the word "reality" because it's so vague and slippery. How do you define "reality" in the first place, before deciding whether we can change it?  That also entails defining the "you" which is experiencing reality, and what's the relationship between them? And it's the distinction between you and reality that needs examining. After all, if "I am reality" as mystics would suggest, then there's no problem in changing reality. Or if I'm separate from reality then it raises this issue of how to change reality, but how can there be anything else outside of reality? Or if I'm not "real" then everything in my mind is imagination and this whole discussion is make-believe. 

 

So to deal with this whole philosophical can of worms, most of us for everyday life use a split reality between the physical and the mental. A dualistic belief, a split between mind and matter, which then raises the issue of how does one affect the other. You see, it's not just sexy stuff like can I levitate something off the table by an act of will (like a spell in Harry Potter), but on everyday life such as, how does the mind relate to the brain? Does the physical structure of the brain create consciousness, or is it the other way round and consciousness creates the brain? 

[Mr H]

2 hours ago, Campion said:

 

Changing reality through beliefs and human willpower is a good definition of magic and what those people doing rituals and spells are trying to effect. Both white and black magic are global phenomena throughout history, so at the very least this is a common idea throughout human societies everywhere. It also appears in New Age spirituality with memes such as 'you create your own reality', 'the law of attraction', etc. 

 

Also, reading this thread has just joined up this "dot" with another more modern "dot" of postmodernism for me. Postmodern posits the idea that language is at the root of all human knowledge and that even hard science is essentially a language game and can therefore be classified as relative truth, that's only true within its own language - ie belief system and culture. This sounds very much like a reworking of the same idea, rooted in philosophical idealism, that mind is more fundamental to reality than matter. So postmodernism is just a new variant on the ancient idea of magic. 

 

In any case, I keep (unsuccessfully) trying to wean myself off using the word "reality" because it's so vague and slippery. How do you define "reality" in the first place, before deciding whether we can change it?  That also entails defining the "you" which is experiencing reality, and what's the relationship between them? And it's the distinction between you and reality that needs examining. After all, if "I am reality" as mystics would suggest, then there's no problem in changing reality. Or if I'm separate from reality then it raises this issue of how to change reality, but how can there be anything else outside of reality? Or if I'm not "real" then everything in my mind is imagination and this whole discussion is make-believe. 

 

So to deal with this whole philosophical can of worms, most of us for everyday life use a split reality between the physical and the mental. A dualistic belief, a split between mind and matter, which then raises the issue of how does one affect the other. You see, it's not just sexy stuff like can I levitate something off the table by an act of will (like a spell in Harry Potter), but on everyday life such as, how does the mind relate to the brain? Does the physical structure of the brain create consciousness, or is it the other way round and consciousness creates the brain? 

Great post.

 

Some comments from my experience.

 

I don't think language is the root of all knowledge. I think that it hinders knowledge. For example it includes nouns and pronouns which traps us to believing that we are separate selves, knowing thyself being the highest knowledge.

 

Mind Vs matter. Consciousness first theory. To me it is quite clear that matter is an illusion derived from mind. Consciousness is our primary experience, prior to objective experience.

 

Links to your other points. The brain does not produce consciousness. Consciousness here first, then the apparent structure of the brain is created. Some activities of mind can be seen to be registered in the brain, viewed by a third party via various scans, I.e the activity of thinking. 

 

 

Edited June 9 by Mr H

[Mr H]

Conversations between Rupert (advaita) and Bernardo (physicist) are great around this topic. @Campion

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9 by Mr H

[DaleP]

6 hours ago, Campion said:

 

Changing reality through beliefs and human willpower is a good definition of magic and what those people doing rituals and spells are trying to effect. Both white and black magic are global phenomena throughout history, so at the very least this is a common idea throughout human societies everywhere. It also appears in New Age spirituality with memes such as 'you create your own reality', 'the law of attraction', etc. 

 

Also, reading this thread has just joined up this "dot" with another more modern "dot" of postmodernism for me. Postmodern posits the idea that language is at the root of all human knowledge and that even hard science is essentially a language game and can therefore be classified as relative truth, that's only true within its own language - ie belief system and culture. This sounds very much like a reworking of the same idea, rooted in philosophical idealism, that mind is more fundamental to reality than matter. So postmodernism is just a new variant on the ancient idea of magic. 

 

In any case, I keep (unsuccessfully) trying to wean myself off using the word "reality" because it's so vague and slippery. How do you define "reality" in the first place, before deciding whether we can change it?  That also entails defining the "you" which is experiencing reality, and what's the relationship between them? And it's the distinction between you and reality that needs examining. After all, if "I am reality" as mystics would suggest, then there's no problem in changing reality. Or if I'm separate from reality then it raises this issue of how to change reality, but how can there be anything else outside of reality? Or if I'm not "real" then everything in my mind is imagination and this whole discussion is make-believe. 

 

So to deal with this whole philosophical can of worms, most of us for everyday life use a split reality between the physical and the mental. A dualistic belief, a split between mind and matter, which then raises the issue of how does one affect the other. You see, it's not just sexy stuff like can I levitate something off the table by an act of will (like a spell in Harry Potter), but on everyday life such as, how does the mind relate to the brain? Does the physical structure of the brain create consciousness, or is it the other way round and consciousness creates the brain? 

 

I reckon the ancients didn't think they were doing magic though some did carry out as such consciously e.g. the Ancient Egyptians. Traditional custom was the way of living and there are many countries which, still to this day, carries simply day to day cultural practices without thinking it is actually magic they are carrying out. But to some, that is  blatant ritual/magic. For example, even in the West, people hang a horseshoe or a blue eye above their door. There is a reason why such item is placed and not a rubber boots or wooden ladle.

[DaleP]

3 hours ago, Mr H said:

I don't think language is the root of all knowledge. I think that it hinders knowledge. For example it includes nouns and pronouns which traps us to believing that we are separate selves, knowing thyself being the highest knowledge.

 

That's how modern society thinks. It wasn't always that way.

Simple vowl,  'aaaah' carries vibration. Sound is alive, knowledge is carried via the vibration much like light, our fibre optic carries information, Sun light also carries information. IAOUE = Yahweh......

 

Many don't have the ability to decode information from light now.

[DaleP]

20 hours ago, peter said:

Ah the chicken or the egg analogy .

The molecules necessary for DNA and therefore life have been found in certain types of meteorites, however what caused the original spark to kick things off and weather it was instantaneous or happened over a long period of time is anyone's guess. Lets just say that the conditions were right for life to begin 

 

@oz93666 might know who/where this person called Atun/Achun (sp?) is....but in Thailand, there is a person who does a ritual to give a person supernatural ability to manifest an object. This guy who received this ritual met this entity which I suspect a small sized alien which appeared like a genie and asked what wish he'd like to manifest and since then, he is able to manifest an object like Sai Baba out of thin air except that object appears from his open palm like an asparagus grows from the ground before your eyes, it can appear out of another object too so there is no possibility of hiding an item under the sleeve type of situation.

 

So when there is aliens involved, it is possible to manifest a chicken or egg but why manifest an egg when you can have a chicken which you can cook there and then.

[peter]

2 hours ago, DaleP said:

@oz93666 might know who/where this person called Atun/Achun (sp?) is....but in Thailand, there is a person who does a ritual to give a person supernatural ability to manifest an object. This guy who received this ritual met this entity which I suspect a small sized alien which appeared like a genie and asked what wish he'd like to manifest and since then, he is able to manifest an object like Sai Baba out of thin air except that object appears from his open palm like an asparagus grows from the ground before your eyes, it can appear out of another object too so there is no possibility of hiding an item under the sleeve type of situation.

Seriously , have you seen the person do it with your own eyes , I bet it's on Utube though