Is happiness joy our natural state?

[Mr H]

If you listen to the new age folks they tend to say that happiness and joy is our natural state, and do exercises to provoke or reveal this state.

 

I'm not going to judge because maybe they're right.

 

But when I sink back deep into myself I don't find this.

 

What I find is a deep peace. More like a fullness. It is neither positive or negatively charged. I also find profound love, but not really the love we tend to think of with heavy emotions attached more like an unconditional love for a child, the Greeks refer to has storge.

 

Happiness/ joy seems to be more of a choice of intelligence conducted by the finite mind to try and make the experience better than it is.

 

Be interesting to explore further with your contributions.

[DaleP]

"happiness and joy is our natural state"

 

I believe this but majority of us wears layer upon layer of others crap that it takes effort to remove them to get to that happiness/joy status but it is possible.

imo, it is a matter of seeking such moment, increase frequency of it from happening and you are there. And you are right in a sense that it is a matter of one's perspective. You can look at it black or white.

Edited April 8, 2023 by DaleP

[Mr H]

2 hours ago, DaleP said:

"happiness and joy is our natural state"

 

I believe this but majority of us wears layer upon layer of others crap that it takes effort to remove them to get to that happiness/joy status but it is possible.

imo, it is a matter of seeking such moment, increase frequency of it from happening and you are there. And you are right in a sense that it is a matter of one's perspective. You can look at it black or white.

Thanks Dale I shall continue the search.

 

To me it seems if you partake in anything that isn't neutral, either a positive or negative charge, you tend to at some point experience the opposite of that charge. 

 

In neutral seems more plain sailing.

[nobody369]

Yes definitely. A loving joyfull happiness state is our natural state, try to remember the states where you were as a child i can definitely recall them and can assure you that's how it is. Now it's harder for us cuz we are full of onion skins programs wich block us from that state. Deep meditation with sensory depravation helps to see your truly inner nature for wich there are no words or terms to describe the amazing bliss.

[Anti Facts Sir]

I was, believe it or not, a very happy kid. And not just in a way that I shut off the outside world and stayed in some fairytale existence that I enjoyed. It was just a happy childhood, playing, doing sports, learning, all that stuff. I didn't feel the world was a threat to me at all. I embraced anything that came my way because most of it, that I can remember, was very positive and good.

 

That would all change, like it did for most ppl, but I think having that very strong sense of happiness as a kid meant I could cope with all the shit that came later.

 

I can only imagine what it must be like for kids who have a shit time growing up, with all sorts of dark and unpleasant stuff to deal with.

[Mr H]

40 minutes ago, nobody369 said:

Yes definitely. A loving joyfull happiness state is our natural state, try to remember the states where you were as a child i can definitely recall them and can assure you that's how it is. Now it's harder for us cuz we are full of onion skins programs wich block us from that state. Deep meditation with sensory depravation helps to see your truly inner nature for wich there are no words or terms to describe the amazing bliss.

You do make an interesting point.

[DaleP]

47 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Thanks Dale I shall continue the search.

 

To me it seems if you partake in anything that isn't neutral, either a positive or negative charge, you tend to at some point experience the opposite of that charge. 

 

In neutral seems more plain sailing.

 

Mind you, neutral/static is plain boring. Instead, it is about movement, flip flop of black n white and joy comes from being able to cope, enjoy both end of the see-saw.

If you can master it, nothing can bring you down.

I think the key is to accumulate high energy so that you can manifest easily. If you experience high energy, you will see how easily things drop into your life, matters move faster and you feel like you are on a high speed train....or roller coaster.

[Sunshine9]

9 hours ago, Anti Facts Sir said:

I can only imagine what it must be like for kids who have a shit time growing up, with all sorts of dark and unpleasant stuff to deal with

 

This is me, unfortunately.  Somehow, I have a naturally positive attitude but it's been challenged greatly over the last few years.  I'm not sure that happiness is our natural state at all, though.  In my experience, I find that moments of happiness come from other people and experiences.  Those two things can also take away the happiness.  I know it is wrong to look for happiness from someone else.  You simply can't count on it that way.  I would say a natural state, at least for me, is peace - that feeling of knowing that all is well and that you have completed your tasks for now.  

 

[alexa]

I once sang this song at a karaoke, I absolutely crucified it  But for me this song says it all about happiness.

 

 

 

[Campion]

What do we mean by "natural" though? There's a school of thought that whatever happens is natural and it's our resistance to the here-and-now which prevents our happiness. 

"The Perfect Way knows no difficulties

Except that it refuses to make preferences;

Only when freed from hate and love,

It reveals itself fully and without disguise"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinxin_Ming 

 

The paradox is that resistance is also what's happening in the here-and-now, so it doesn't help to try and stop resistance. This is a practice of unconditional acceptance, which is unconditional love. 

[Mr H]

58 minutes ago, Campion said:

What do we mean by "natural" though? There's a school of thought that whatever happens is natural and it's our resistance to the here-and-now which prevents our happiness. 

"The Perfect Way knows no difficulties

Except that it refuses to make preferences;

Only when freed from hate and love,

It reveals itself fully and without disguise"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinxin_Ming 

 

The paradox is that resistance is also what's happening in the here-and-now, so it doesn't help to try and stop resistance. This is a practice of unconditional acceptance, which is unconditional love. 

Natural-  prior to objective experience.

[Macnamara]

I do experience joy sometimes so i believe that a more joyful state is possible but when i look around at some wealthy people and see that they have issues or are not happy i wonder how much of it comes down to appreciation.....you know the ''bitter/sweet principle'' where in order to really appreciate the sweet you have to have tasted the bitter.....i'd like some more of the sweet though....

 

Do i experience joy at times because those times have an absence of the things that stifle the joy and by knowing that contrast i am able to really appreciate the times when things are sweet?

 

Also i don't know about joy being a permanent state but maybe more of a peak experience type of state that isn't sustainable all the time. I think a more realistic goal is a world where more people feel generally good and stable and able to ride out the bumps of life whilst also having joyful moments

 

So then its a case of thinking about what ingredients go into a person and their life that enable them to live in that more healthy and balanced state as the norm

 

If you look at how our society is set up and also at the direction of travel it seems that much of it is designed to squeeze the joy out of things or to put people into states of anxiety and even dread.

 

I don't believe that is by accident. I think bad actors make it that way and that we have to keep the dream alive of a potentially better world

Edited April 9, 2023 by Macnamara

[Macnamara]

7 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 when i look around at some wealthy people and see that they have issues or are not happy i wonder how much of it comes down to appreciation.....

 

when i hear rich people complain i always think ''i'll take that money off your hands and relieve you of the burden''

 

but i suppose that for those people who have all the material things they want there may still be something missing.....a nagging itch and i guess that's where spirituality comes in....a deeper purpose

[Campion]

30 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Natural-  prior to objective experience.

That's a valid definition, and one which chimes with a meditation book I value. It talks about natural awareness as the state of mind prior to both objective and subjective experience - these arise together as two sides of the coin. I just wonder if the subject/object duality is what's responsible for unhappiness? And if duality is unnatural, where did it come from and why? For my tuppence, it's not unnatural as such but it's a survival mechanism which tries to help us survive and thrive by imagining a separate subject that's at war with the objects around it (willpower). 

[Macnamara]

15 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

I do experience joy sometimes so i believe that a more joyful state is possible

 

that would be finding the way....flow

 

so much of modern life is about disrupting flow and pulling people down into a negative vibration.....technology doesn't seem to create more flow.....it just seems to bring whole new problems

[novymir]

My natural state is devoid of deceit(evil), and all the garbage that goes along with it. There is no place for evil within me, there is no place for me within evil.

I despise deceit, and what it has done to me and led to.

 

I have glimpsed my Being as it truely is, I have experienced The Truth, the truth of Eternal Innocent Loving Creative Being Alive, Infinite.

Is that a "happy, joyful" state?     I don't care,,, that's where I long to BE.

 

I don't have to be able to describe IT in words, I don't have to know what it "looks" like, or "how it works", or "why"...to me none of that matters, it is in THAT I Trust. And only THAT.

 

 

[Mr H]

25 minutes ago, Campion said:

That's a valid definition, and one which chimes with a meditation book I value. It talks about natural awareness as the state of mind prior to both objective and subjective experience - these arise together as two sides of the coin. I just wonder if the subject/object duality is what's responsible for unhappiness? And if duality is unnatural, where did it come from and why? For my tuppence, it's not unnatural as such but it's a survival mechanism which tries to help us survive and thrive by imagining a separate subject that's at war with the objects around it (willpower). 

I think unhappiness comes from perspective. Some see horrendous things happen to them , but see it as the best thing that could ever happen to them, others will live in permanent depression about it.

 

I think duality is natural here on this earth as it seems to be the contrasting nature of things that enables creation, and provides meaning. I don't think it's natural prior to objective experience. But I'm just speaking out loud here my initial thoughts, I haven't thought about this in great detail before.

 

I've seen other theories too, that the duality we experience is directly associated with our apparatus. We experience everything through mind, and our finite minds nature is dualistic - right and left brained hemispheres so our experience is a reflection of our limited apparatus. We see the world as we are rather than how it actually is.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Mr H

[Sunshine9]

8 hours ago, Macnamara said:

If you look at how our society is set up and also at the direction of travel it seems that much of it is designed to squeeze the joy out of things or to put people into states of anxiety and even dread.

 

I don't believe that is by accident. I think bad actors make it that way and that we have to keep the dream alive of a potentially better world

 

Amen to that!  Why all the bad actors?  I just don't get it.  

[Mr H]

14 minutes ago, Sunshine9 said:

 

Amen to that!  Why all the bad actors?  I just don't get it.  

I believe it's because of ignorance. And from their perspective, they genuinely believe they are good actors too.

[Macnamara]

13 hours ago, Sunshine9 said:

 

Amen to that!  Why all the bad actors?  I just don't get it.  

 

evil exists. It's a thing. It has an army on earth

[Sunshine9]

45 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 

evil exists. It's a thing. It has an army on earth

I see that it does and that what you're saying is true. It just seems like the fact that we're all here for such a short time would bind us together and we would all want what's best for each other. It's hard to fathom why this isn't the case!

[Macnamara]

48 minutes ago, Sunshine9 said:

It's hard to fathom why this isn't the case!

 

that might be a little bit above my paygrade!

 

perhaps alan watts would tell us that in order to have light you must have dark and perhaps jung would speak of enantiodromia:

 

Enantiodromia (Ancient Greek: ἐναντίος, romanized: enantios – "opposite" and δρόμος, dromos – "running course") is a principle introduced in the West by psychiatrist Carl Jung. In Psychological Types, Jung defines enantiodromia as "the emergence of the unconscious opposite in the course of time."^[1] It is similar to the principle of equilibrium in the natural world, in that any extreme is opposed by the system in order to restore balance. When things get to their extreme, they turn into their opposite. Jung adds that "this characteristic phenomenon practically always occurs when an extreme, one-sided tendency dominates conscious life; in time an equally powerful counterposition is built up which first inhibits the conscious performance and subsequently breaks through the conscious control."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiodromia

 

Abrahamics might speak of fallen angels and the adversary where the devil seeks to test mankind. Is it wetiko or the fallen state of this reality? The gnostics say all the worlds problems are the result of ignorance although they have differing views on the nature of duality whilst kabbalists speak of the dark qliphothic flipside of the tree of life

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Macnamara

[Campion]

1 hour ago, Sunshine9 said:

I see that it does and that what you're saying is true. It just seems like the fact that we're all here for such a short time would bind us together and we would all want what's best for each other. It's hard to fathom why this isn't the case!

 

The animals we evolved from are competitive and hierarchical too, so it's not only us and it's been like this a long time! Also, although we don't live so long individually, our cultures we're brought up in do last, and the binding traditionally occurred in families and tribes. Everyone's survival depended on close ties and teamwork against threats from outside. However we are now so far removed from the natural order and communicating so much through screens rather than face to face, expected to mix with other tribes, even increasingly interacting with AI instead of people, that everything is becoming more difficult and dissonant. 

[Mr H]

5 hours ago, Sunshine9 said:

I see that it does and that what you're saying is true. It just seems like the fact that we're all here for such a short time would bind us together and we would all want what's best for each other. It's hard to fathom why this isn't the case!

I believe essentially whatever this place is. It has turned into a place where living from the ego is prevalent. There are many theories as to why this happened.

 

In this state, the belief is, I am finite, I am separate. It's essentially all about ME ME ME! This leads to what some people call evil behaviour. 

 

I believe the game is to see through this illusion and see the ego is fake. From there we can start to create a world where everyone benefits.

[Certified Green of Heart]

On 4/8/2023 at 9:29 PM, DaleP said:

 

Mind you, neutral/static is plain boring. Instead, it is about movement, flip flop of black n white and joy comes from being able to cope, enjoy both end of the see-saw.

 

See-Saw, sums it up fairly well, and I am sure also it is fairly well known, but not quite well enough, that I share the little (to sometimes fair amount) that I know about Shaolin traditions (or if you like Daoists too in China too for their part if purely Daoist or whatever functional on this point we are referencing regarding whatever ideology and structure or belief system similar to those)..... Well certainly for the Shaolin anyway (which I am fairly sure have some Daoist influence?), their practice, particularly in Kung Fu, is not just a good example but an excellent example of this Middle Way thing (whether considering duality or not -- errr, as I don't like to get too wrapped up in that duality business unless needy to), but excusing my slight ignorance or impatience sometimes about dualities, what is true is when looking at what I have studied some of, in Shaolin ways at least, the Shaolin simply looks to buddhism for inspiring Shaolin to perform what they are able to achieve with their great discipline and yet harness the power from within of arts which feature well an example of great flexibility for the ways they know work which speaks of the The Middle Way.... So I am sure one of their main inspirations comes from what Buddhism describes as The Middle Way....

Yet to add a little context to this, when I saw a video of Master Shi Heng Yi talk of this, he explained beyond what I had perhaps realized or anticipated it meaning by what would seem obvious, but there is a little more to it   >> so in reality and as Master SHY says it becomes not just a firm or fixed line between hard/fast, or soft/easy, it is a combination of these realities borrowing from all extremes of the spectrum of experience, so it is all inclusive for as long as useful in Kung Fu training (*and life in general if you so wish*), and being flexible about it is certainly very noticeable in some form, and is engaged in both mentally and in bodily practice.... Well then we see the meaning of The Middle Way start to break even by what it actually is meaning to say, and making more sense in the round therefore.... and relatively easy to see how or why it takes shape as it does on basic principle...... 
 

So to summarize more simply despite the kinda inadequate name given as thus~ so~> The Middle Way (for those that are not sure like I wasn't until recently) is not only about staying centre the whole time as the basic revelation in this explaining. But where one is capable to extend out, expand and contract to either end of the spectrum, secure in the knowledge training for it is helping build better and stronger character, the more that is experienced by allowing a broad but disciplined set of exercises to undergo on course to being a more rounded being, and skilled in the process too.