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Hydrogen power and transportation


sock muppet

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So to kick off the discussion we need to take a brief look at the history of Hydrogen and why it is an important technology that considers the environment in its use, as far as i am aware as of the date and time of this post the greatest set back to using hydrogen for everyday use is one of containment and just how devastating it can be when ignited.

 

Hydrogen timeline:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_hydrogen_technologies

 

There is however a material that can be used that will mitigate against the above scenario in both containment and explosivity, Bob Lazaar explains this back in circa 1990.

 

 

Edited by sock muppet
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On 4/5/2023 at 4:15 PM, sock muppet said:

 

From the wiki page we find the beginnings of the Hydrogen fuel cell, which for power and transportation for domestic settings, is most likely the technology to win out over other forms of Hydrogen's energetic properties.

 

1801 – Humphry Davy discovers the concept of the Fuel Cell

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

 

Quote from article:

'The first fuel cells were invented by Sir William Grove in 1838. The first commercial use of fuel cells came more than a century later following the invention of the hydrogen–oxygen fuel cell by Francis Thomas Bacon in 1932. The alkaline fuel cell, also known as the Bacon fuel cell after its inventor, has been used in NASA space programs since the mid-1960s to generate power for satellites and space capsules. Since then, fuel cells have been used in many other applications. Fuel cells are used for primary and backup power for commercial, industrial and residential buildings and in remote or inaccessible areas. They are also used to power fuel cell vehicles, including forklifts, automobiles, buses, trains, boats, motorcycles, and submarines.'

 

 

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Very interesting discussion by Kerry Cassidy interviewing Miles Johnston.

 

LIZ TRUSS ARTICLE, IRISH EXPRA GENE FOR AI /COMPUTER DIRECT INTERFACE, ILLUMINATI LOSING GAME, MYSTERIOUS DEATH REPTILIAN VICTIM NEAR BASE AND MORE...

 

It also includes info on a new type of coating that can be painted onto the inside of containers, that is water based, and has the ability to block the escape of Hydrogen in its gas phase, there is also some speculation to an alternative hypothesis as to why the Nord stream pipeline was (allegedly) blown up, and why Germany is mothballing their Nuclear reactors, could it be that Hydrogen production is now going to be ramped up to become a major contender in the energy market.

 

Project Camelot

https://odysee.com/@PROJECTCAMELOT:d/MILES-JOHNSTON-UPDATE-APRIL-14final-final2:b

 

03821d587f2b154fa8e3927e28cff1e6.webp.dd5b800556f75cccdc550ec133de0b5e.webp

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  • 2 months later...

Now, who's ready for a good news story, :classic_biggrin:

Toyota, Yamaha and JCB appear to be leading the way with Hydrogen power for transportation and heavy equipment, also the potential for disconnecting from the grid looks extremely appealing with home devices for all your domestic power needs, it seems as though the containment problem has been solved, 👍

 

EarthNewspaper.com

Toyota CEO: "Our New Hydrogen Engine Will Destroy The EV Industry"

 

Toyota has unveiled a new engine that will destroy EVs. Introducing the Toyota Hydrogen Engine - a cutting-edge technology that will soon replace traditional gasoline engines without sacrificing power or efficiency. Toyota have spent millions of dollars trying to come up with an alternative solution that would help save the environment, but also offer the same amount of power as gasoline engines. Toyota has long been investing in hybrid and electric cars, but the company is now taking things a step further. In 2022, Toyota announced its partnership with Yamaha Motor to develop a hydrogen-fueled engine that would offer the same level of power as gasoline engines, but with zero emissions.

Duration 00:09:15

https://www.bitchute.com/video/M86d4Jc40Bpm/

 

 

M86d4Jc40Bpm_640x360.webp.2d69b90754b778cfe32062a5fe3255df.webp

 

 

th-2988675786a.webp.d7d70dc47df4453582b54f8bbda67523.webp

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No surprise to hear JCB are involved.

 

Jo Bamford (son of John Bamford, founder of JCB) is heavily invested in hydrogen production and delivery infrastructure, and also bought Northern Irish bus manufacturer WrightBus when they collapsed into administration in 2019. The companys fortunes dramatically turned around within a couple of years and are now at the forefront of hydrogen-powered PSV development.

 

Using government funding, Birmingham City Council bought 20 of these for milions of pounds, with the intention being that National Express West Midlands would use them on their Walsall to Birmingham bus service. At the time of writing, there are still only about 6 or 7 used every day, due to concerns about the cost of hydrogen, which has apparently risen dramatically since their introduction, as well as problems with the refuelling depot at Tyseley in Birmingham.

 

Apparently National Express have already committed to buy another 120 of these, on top of the 300 fully-electric buses they have got on order.

 

Looks like a win-win situation for Bamford - if you supply the hydrogen-powered buses as well as the hydrogen gas to power them. Talk about right time, right place!

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Hydrogen cars sound like a good idea, but how do they make the hydrogen for the cells, does it need energy input from the regular electricity or gas supply? They don't just mine hydrogen out of the ground do they?  Isn't there a risk that we'd still be exposed to the same global energy markets as are creating economic chaos at the moment? We're still nowhere near self-sufficiency. 

 

Sorry this is me being too lazy to do my own research!! 

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1 hour ago, Campion said:

Hydrogen cars sound like a good idea, but how do they make the hydrogen for the cells, does it need energy input from the regular electricity or gas supply? They don't just mine hydrogen out of the ground do they?  Isn't there a risk that we'd still be exposed to the same global energy markets as are creating economic chaos at the moment? We're still nowhere near self-sufficiency. 

 

Sorry this is me being too lazy to do my own research!! 

 

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in existence, and is part of what is known as Hydrocarbon's that you currently use in your fuel tank, petrol, diesel, propane, butane etc...

So yes they do mine Hydrogen from the ground as crude oil and gas, it forms the molecules that they all are, the great thing about just using hydrogen is that it creates no toxic emissions at its eventual end use point, 👍

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13 hours ago, sock muppet said:

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in existence, and is part of what is known as Hydrocarbon's that you currently use in your fuel tank, petrol, diesel, propane, butane etc...

So yes they do mine Hydrogen from the ground as crude oil and gas, it forms the molecules that they all are, the great thing about just using hydrogen is that it creates no toxic emissions at its eventual end use point, 👍

 

Thanks Socky :) It sounds like hydrogen does rely on fossil fuels, or other conventional power at its point of manufacture and the pollution is still created earlier on in the process. It shouldn't be used by the ptb as an excuse to clamp down on petrol or diesel cars then! I'll be comparing it on the basis of cost, performance, convenience etc and not on how supposedly "green" it is. 

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3 hours ago, Campion said:

It sounds like hydrogen does rely on fossil fuels, or other conventional power at its point of manufacture and the pollution is still created earlier on in the process.

 

Not necessarily polluting to produce, there are many ways to liberate Hydrogen from the H2O molecule aka Water, as long as the Sun shines then there will always be energy to liberate it and now store it for later use, hydrogen as a fuel is nothing new, Jules Verne first wrote about it in the book The Mysterious Island, here is where he mentions it in chapter 33, :classic_dry:, and it would be 33 wouldn't it, 🤣, also note the mention of diamonds, 🤔

 

It chanced one day that Spilett was led to say--

"But now, my dear Cyrus, all this industrial and commercial movement to
which you predict a continual advance, does it not run the danger of being
sooner or later completely stopped?"

"Stopped! And by what?"

"By the want of coal, which may justly be called the most precious of
minerals."

"Yes, the most precious indeed," replied the engineer; "and it would seem
that nature wished to prove that it was so by making the diamond, which is
simply pure carbon crystallized."

"You don't mean to say, captain," interrupted Pencroft, "that we burn
diamonds in our stoves in the shape of coal?"

"No, my friend," replied Harding.

"However," resumed Gideon Spilett, "you do not deny that some day the
coal will be entirely consumed?"

"Oh! the veins of coal are still considerable, and the hundred thousand
miners who annually extract from them a hundred millions of hundredweights
have not nearly exhausted them."

"With the increasing consumption of coal," replied Gideon Spilett, "it
can be foreseen that the hundred thousand workmen will soon become two
hundred thousand, and that the rate of extraction will be doubled."

"Doubtless; but after the European mines, which will be soon worked more
thoroughly with new machines, the American and Australian mines will for a
long time yet provide for the consumption in trade."

"For how long a time?" asked the reporter.

"For at least two hundred and fifty or three hundred years."

"That is reassuring for us, but a bad look-out for our great-
grandchildren!" observed Pencroft.

"They will discover something else," said Herbert.

"It is to be hoped so," answered Spilett, "for without coal there would be
no machinery, and without machinery there would be no railways, no
steamers, no manufactories, nothing of that which is indispensable to
modern civilization!"

"But what will they find?" asked Pencroft. "Can you guess, captain?"

"Nearly, my friend."

"And what will they burn instead of coal?"

"Water," replied Harding.

"Water!" cried Pencroft, "water as fuel for steamers and engines! water
to heat water!"

"Yes, but water decomposed into its primitive elements," replied Cyrus
Harding,
"and decomposed doubtless, by electricity, which will then have
become a powerful and manageable force, for all great discoveries, by some
inexplicable laws, appear to agree and become complete at the same time.
Yes, my friends, I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel,
that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will
furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which
coal is not capable. Some day the coalrooms of steamers and the tenders of
locomotives will, instead of coal, be stored with these two condensed
gases, which will burn in the furnaces with enormous calorific power. There
is, therefore, nothing to fear. As long as the earth is inhabited it will
supply the wants of its inhabitants, and there will be no want of either
light or heat as long as the productions of the vegetable, mineral or
animal kingdoms do not fail us. I believe, then, that when the deposits of
coal are exhausted we shall heat and warm ourselves with water. Water will
be the coal of the future."

"I should like to see that," observed the sailor.

"You were born too soon, Pencroft," returned Neb, who only took part in
the discussion by these words.

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On 6/28/2023 at 7:14 PM, Campion said:

 

Thanks Socky :) It sounds like hydrogen does rely on fossil fuels, or other conventional power at its point of manufacture and the pollution is still created earlier on in the process. It shouldn't be used by the ptb as an excuse to clamp down on petrol or diesel cars then! I'll be comparing it on the basis of cost, performance, convenience etc and not on how supposedly "green" it is. 

No it doesn't require fossil fuels, it is abundant in water,twice as much as oxygen to be exact

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On 6/29/2023 at 7:12 AM, Campion said:

Nice quote! So I guess the hydrogen cells will need to be labelled up with the source ingredients. Unless it gets regulated and we're not allowed to choose for ourselves ... 

 

The main problem with using hydrogen as a fuel source has always been containment, it was not possible to store hydrogen for any length of useful time until it is needed, simply because of the fact of its small atomic size and has the ability to escape containment through the very medium that is containing it, hydrogen will also chemically bind with just about anything in existence and alter the chemical structure that it binds with, and in the case of metals it makes them brittle and structurally unsound, hydrogen is also known as natures cleaner.

 

The most important factor to bear in mind is the timeline within which its discovery as a fuel has taken place, as the quote from Jules Verne describes, we have come from the beasts of the fields, wood, the water wheel, then onto coal and then to crude oil and gas, all of which are still abundant and cheap which requires very little in terms of processing for useful output of work derived from their use, which leads us to the economic question of those whom have benefited the most from all of the above activities in terms of wealth, and they are not so ready to give up the opulent life styles provided, and will also have a knock on effect further down the economic line to the ordinary Man or Woman.

 

With the ability to now store hydrogen and the various techniques with which it can be processed to perform useful work, the above economics will have to yield to this new form of fuel, the zero toxic emissions makes it ideal for the transportation industry and the domestic setting of city/urban living, the fact that you can power your home with it by the use of fuel cell technology means you have your very own power station without noise or pollution that would otherwise annoy your neighbours.

It is the versatility of this fuel that makes it so appealing and useful, and it solves many problems associated with energy extraction and consumption, the domestic setting is where i think its true market can be found and a new economy should emerge from, 👍

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1 hour ago, sock muppet said:

 

The main problem with using hydrogen as a fuel source has always been containment, it was not possible to store hydrogen for any length of useful time until it is needed, simply because of the fact of its small atomic size and has the ability to escape containment through the very medium that is containing it, hydrogen will also chemically bind with just about anything in existence and alter the chemical structure that it binds with, and in the case of metals it makes them brittle and structurally unsound, hydrogen is also known as natures cleaner.

 

The most important factor to bear in mind is the timeline within which its discovery as a fuel has taken place, as the quote from Jules Verne describes, we have come from the beasts of the fields, wood, the water wheel, then onto coal and then to crude oil and gas, all of which are still abundant and cheap which requires very little in terms of processing for useful output of work derived from their use, which leads us to the economic question of those whom have benefited the most from all of the above activities in terms of wealth, and they are not so ready to give up the opulent life styles provided, and will also have a knock on effect further down the economic line to the ordinary Man or Woman.

 

With the ability to now store hydrogen and the various techniques with which it can be processed to perform useful work, the above economics will have to yield to this new form of fuel, the zero toxic emissions makes it ideal for the transportation industry and the domestic setting of city/urban living, the fact that you can power your home with it by the use of fuel cell technology means you have your very own power station without noise or pollution that would otherwise annoy your neighbours.

It is the versatility of this fuel that makes it so appealing and useful, and it solves many problems associated with energy extraction and consumption, the domestic setting is where i think its true market can be found and a new economy should emerge from, 👍

I agree, hydrogen is the way forward perfect fuel if containment is possible.

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On 6/27/2023 at 6:39 PM, Campion said:

Hydrogen cars sound like a good idea, but how do they make the hydrogen for the cells, does it need energy input from the regular electricity or gas supply?

 

Hydrogen is produced using fossil fuels! 🤪

 

https://hydrogen-uk.org/the-hydrogen-story/production/

 

Quote

There are two main hydrogen production routes:

Electrolysis – Commonly referred to as “green hydrogen”, hydrogen production via electrolysis uses electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. No greenhouse gas emissions are produced, although there may be emissions associated with the electricity generation. Electrolysers can help to balance the electricity grid by rapidly increasing or decreasing demand to ensure supply and demand are equal.

CCUS enabled – Commonly referred to as “blue hydrogen”, CCUS enabled hydrogen is commonly produced via a process called reforming. This process reacts steam with a stream of natural gas at high temperatures to create hydrogen and carbon dioxide. The capture of carbon dioxide (CO2) is required to make this a low carbon form of hydrogen production. The Climate Change Committee (CCC) estimates potential capture rates at between 90 and 100%.

 

Vehicles powered by hydrogen might be more environmentally friendly, but it still requires natural gas and electricity to produce the hydrogen.

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4 hours ago, Grumpy Owl said:

Hydrogen is produced using fossil fuels!

 

So is petrol, diesel and all the other hydrocarbons found in crude oil, it all has to be refined at the refinery by Fractional distillation which requires an energy source to do it.

 

What if all the hydrogen can be liberated at the refinery by separating it from the carbon, what you would be left with is the very clean hydrogen for use and the toxic residues that are the problem and coal, which can then be stored back underground in coal mines, this is a much better prospect than what some currently insane scientists are suggesting of pumping CO2 back into the depleted gas fields to store which requires even more energy input to achieve something that is completely unnecessary and not the problem it has been made out to be, The current global average concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is (0.04%) 421 ppm as of May 2022.

 

With the ability to store hydrogen for long periods of time there is no limit on clean usable energy for the domestic power and transportation economy, 👍

 

Watch the water, 🤭

 

H2O.webp.c64b947e897bc25eb8b10c7161c8e74a.webp

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2 hours ago, sock muppet said:

So is petrol, diesel and all the other hydrocarbons found in crude oil, it all has to be refined at the refinery by Fractional distillation which requires an energy source to do it.

 

The point is that while hydrogen-powered vehicles produce no carbon emissions "from the tail pipe", as with battery-electric powered vehicles, fossil fuels are still required in order to produce this 'zero-emission' fuel source.

 

If one calls this a 'problem', it is just moving the 'problem' elsewhere. The 'big oil' companies continue to win, as we still need their oil and gas in order to produce the electricity and gas required to charge up and fuel these electric or hydrogen fuel cells.

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19 hours ago, Grumpy Owl said:

fossil fuels are still required in order to produce this 'zero-emission' fuel source.

 

That should be 'zero toxic emission' fuel source, CO2 emissions are not the problem, it is the toxin's that never get mentioned that are the problem.

 

19 hours ago, Grumpy Owl said:

If one calls this a 'problem', it is just moving the 'problem' elsewhere.

 

You are correct on this view point, it does indeed move the toxicity away from the city/urban landscape, but there is now the will with the advent of new techniques in liberating the clean fuel with the advent of stable storage capability, and it is this latter part that is the key to its success.

 

20 hours ago, Grumpy Owl said:

The 'big oil' companies continue to win, as we still need their oil and gas in order to produce the electricity and gas required to charge up and fuel these electric or hydrogen fuel cells.

 

For the moment they continue to win, which is why the domestic independent economy should lead the way, gradually superseding both the hydrocarbon/electric offerings at present, 👍

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  • 2 months later...

It would be interesting to know how much this hydrogen combustion engine costs, and how much it costs to install. Compared to the cost of a brand new zero-emission van obviously.

 

I see many companies, especially delivery companies like Royal Mail, DPD, and DHL, racing to replace their van fleet with brand new electric vans.

 

Which must be costing a pretty packet, as well as resulting in an excess amount of decent condition diesel vans flooding the second hand market.

 

Nobody thinks about the 'waste'. Hopefully it is more cost-effective to 'retrofit' a 3-4 year old diesel van with a hydrogen engine.

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On 9/17/2023 at 7:48 PM, Grumpy Owl said:

It would be interesting to know how much this hydrogen combustion engine costs, and how much it costs to install. Compared to the cost of a brand new zero-emission van obviously.

 

I see many companies, especially delivery companies like Royal Mail, DPD, and DHL, racing to replace their van fleet with brand new electric vans.

 

Which must be costing a pretty packet, as well as resulting in an excess amount of decent condition diesel vans flooding the second hand market.

 

Nobody thinks about the 'waste'. Hopefully it is more cost-effective to 'retrofit' a 3-4 year old diesel van with a hydrogen engine.

 

I need to look into the cost aspect further, but the fact that the internal combustion engine has all the tooling required for production already, there should be none to little in terms of cost of production, perhaps even cheaper than with current hydro-carbon engine configuration.

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