Consumer Technology HAS Destroyed Us- The plain physics and biophysics of phone and wi-fi radiation

[Chris P]

On 11/7/2023 at 12:47 PM, LastOneLeftInTheCounty said:

TOPICS:Cell Phone RadiationEMFPatricia BurkeWiFi

NOVEMBER 5, 2023
 

By Patricia Burke of Safe Tech International with Katherine Armitage

For entertainment purposes only, not to be construed as medical advice.

 

Cheers for posting.

 

I'm a bit suspicious of the article -  the "entertainment purposes only" disclaimer is a massive red flag to me. 

 

On 11/7/2023 at 12:47 PM, LastOneLeftInTheCounty said:

TheElectrosensitivity UK event was held in an environment with no EMF/RF stress, which is very rare, – in a village hall in Somerset.

 

The ES-UK event was actually held in Odcombe village hall. It's absolutely not the case that there is no EMF there.. Below I've attached a coverage map from O2:

 

"4G Seemless connectivity and mobile internet. Good indoors and outdoors"..

 

Also you can see below that the village hall is not in any kind of "rural idyllic" spot. It's in the middle of a suburban area, only around 50 metres from residential homes! 

 

I'd be very surprised if you couldn't pick up at least 3 different WiFi sources

 

Also interesting to me the "brownie points" that the article quickly scores.

 

Ie cars being an unhealthy "Faraday cage" (I wish they were!), "Events of 9/11", "School shootings", "Covid lockdowns" etc.. 

 

If Odcombe really is one of England's least "EMF'd" villages, then that is very sad but doesn't really surprise me!

 

I've scrolled the network maps & also travelled all around the countryside with an EMF meter, searching for a village which might be tolerable to those with EMF sensitivity. Haven't found anywhere yet! 

 

Due to the dispersal pattern indicated by my own meter readings, I suspect the sources in rural areas are mostly "area" sources (or multiple distant sources working together) rather than "point" sources.

 

Possibly satellites or military (over the horizon radar maybe?), or possibly multiple distant base towers forming a "meta grid" phased array maybe.

 

The low-frequency readings are often very intense in unexpected areas - including wilderness/moorland and even at the base of sea cliffs with nothing much except ocean within line of sight.

 

The overall rural pattern varies very little in intensity over wide areas. For example on one journey I measured 81V/m in location A, increasing gradually over a 40 mile journey to 97V/m in location B. 

 

Who knows what's really going on. I personally very much doubt that these low frequencies are actually used for mobile cell communication, but they may well be using the infrastructure.

[LastOneLeftInTheCounty]

On 11/9/2023 at 4:39 AM, Chris P said:

 

Cheers for posting.

 

I'm a bit suspicious of the article -  the "entertainment purposes only" disclaimer is a massive red flag to me. 

 

 

The ES-UK event was actually held in Odcombe village hall. It's absolutely not the case that there is no EMF there.. Below I've attached a coverage map from O2:

 

"4G Seemless connectivity and mobile internet. Good indoors and outdoors"..

 

Also you can see below that the village hall is not in any kind of "rural idyllic" spot. It's in the middle of a suburban area, only around 50 metres from residential homes! 

 

I'd be very surprised if you couldn't pick up at least 3 different WiFi sources

 

 

Also interesting to me the "brownie points" that the article quickly scores.

 

Ie cars being an unhealthy "Faraday cage" (I wish they were!), "Events of 9/11", "School shootings", "Covid lockdowns" etc.. 

 

If Odcombe really is one of England's least "EMF'd" villages, then that is very sad but doesn't really surprise me!

 

I've scrolled the network maps & also travelled all around the countryside with an EMF meter, searching for a village which might be tolerable to those with EMF sensitivity. Haven't found anywhere yet! 

 

Due to the dispersal pattern indicated by my own meter readings, I suspect the sources in rural areas are mostly "area" sources (or multiple distant sources working together) rather than "point" sources.

 

Possibly satellites or military (over the horizon radar maybe?), or possibly multiple distant base towers forming a "meta grid" phased array maybe.

 

The low-frequency readings are often very intense in unexpected areas - including wilderness/moorland and even at the base of sea cliffs with nothing much except ocean within line of sight.

 

The overall rural pattern varies very little in intensity over wide areas. For example on one journey I measured 81V/m in location A, increasing gradually over a 40 mile journey to 97V/m in location B. 

 

Who knows what's really going on. I personally very much doubt that these low frequencies are actually used for mobile cell communication, but they may well be using the infrastructure.

Wow ok dude, looks like you’ve done a little bit more than your homework.

Can you make a business out of your equipment and expertise? 

I suppose it is what it is, the article has a few takeaways, food for thought.

In the end, we all probably know that this technology that we covet is not doing great things for our physiology 

 

[Talorgan]

https://cellphonetaskforce.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Dont-irradiate-the-birds.pdf

 

Interesting evidence of devastating effects of this type radiation and how birds seeks sanctuary away from it

[bamboozooka]

i believe we are not living under a dome of 5g.

5g in principal is directional

the higher the frequency the narrower the directional beam

the higher the frequency the less distance it can travel

[LastOneLeftInTheCounty]

3 minutes ago, bamboozooka said:

i believe we are not living under a dome of 5g.

5g in principal is directional

the higher the frequency the narrower the directional beam

the higher the frequency the less distance it can travel

Yes it isn’t a dome of EM energy, I’ve seen diagrams of phone masts and arrays that show the direction of the radiation coverage.

 

Whether transmitting or recieving, the broadcast field is level with the top of the antenna and beams in a horizontal way, covering everything under it, infront of it and around it, which is why the large arrays are so tall, broadcasting to the smaller masts you see around town. 
 

If you could see the radiation it would look like a lighthouse beam, with light underneath also

[Talorgan]

1 hour ago, LastOneLeftInTheCounty said:

Yes it isn’t a dome of EM energy, I’ve seen diagrams of phone masts and arrays that show the direction of the radiation coverage.

 

Whether transmitting or recieving, the broadcast field is level with the top of the antenna and beams in a horizontal way, covering everything under it, infront of it and around it, which is why the large arrays are so tall, broadcasting to the smaller masts you see around town. 
 

If you could see the radiation it would look like a lighthouse beam, with light underneath also

 I've seen local hospital having lots masks on roof of high  building and just below is maternity floors if I remember right ,crazy idea I would think especially if the energy goes downward 

[LastOneLeftInTheCounty]

2 hours ago, Talorgan said:

 I've seen local hospital having lots masks on roof of high  building and just below is maternity floors if I remember right ,crazy idea I would think especially if the energy goes downward 

All by design. 
 

Can’t have fertile women reproducing anymore, and their babies? Microwave them whilst their young, they’ll soon fall in line after having their bioplasmic energy torn to shreds and scattered to the wind. 

[pete675]

This is very like the vaccine, with financial power stopping us from seeing the obvious. The only mainstream journalist who had the courage to point out the link between mobiles and brain tumours was Richard Ingrams. 

[Anti Facts Sir]

No no no, you're all wrong...Smartphones are one of the GENUIS things of modern life. The BBC told us so last night. The usual redhead shill fronting the "educational" show.

[LastOneLeftInTheCounty]

20 minutes ago, Anti Facts Sir said:

No no no, you're all wrong...Smartphones are one of the GENUIS things of modern life. The BBC told us so last night. The usual redhead shill fronting the "educational" show.

Yeah she’s something if an enigma.

 

I initially found her quite attractive, then I saw her latest round of tv appearances.

Cant help thinking she might be TS, caught a couple of glimpses of her ring finger- to me it looked longer than her index finger. Man alert! And she’s a bit bulky up top, like a rugby player. 
Who knows 

 

As for her journalism, well- what journalism?

 

Smartphones are safe and effective! 
 

Safe and effective at population reduction! 

[Chris P]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:09 PM, LastOneLeftInTheCounty said:

Wow ok dude, looks like you’ve done a little bit more than your homework.

Can you make a business out of your equipment and expertise? 

I suppose it is what it is, the article has a few takeaways, food for thought.

In the end, we all probably know that this technology that we covet is not doing great things for our physiology 

 

Cheers mate & apologies for slow reply.. as luck would have it I dropped and broke my phone the day after posting

 

Went a week or 2 smartphone-free which was an interesting time.

 

The EMF meter I've been using is about as basic as it's possible to get, ideally I'd upgrade to be able to see which particular frequencies are present. I wish I was more technically minded.. would love to build a small number of custom versions complete with a datalogger & GPS.

 

Could then compare results between different locations and at different times, loaning them to long distance lorry drivers, cruise ship personnel etc. Then could have much more insight into what's really going on with these frequencies & where they extend to etc.

[Chris P]

Just wondering, what do people here think of Barrie Trower? I've watched a few of his videos and interviews, but haven't yet come to a conclusion. 

 

Barrie claims to have been a Navy Microwave Weapons specialist (or something along those lines), and to have worked for the UK Intelligence Services but I haven't been able to find any hard evidence of this. There are a couple of videos where he talks extensively - repeatedly saying "I'll show you the papers which you can use effectively to fight these masts legally" - then doesn't actually show much of anything! Often seems to present half a story.

 

Could he be a disinformation agent? One thing is for certain: If he did have access to classified documents from his time in the military, & then reveals this information to the public, he would be in very serious trouble.

 

One very disturbing claim he makes on the Richard D Hall show, is that weak radio signals (at least of the "mind controlling" variety) are actually FAR MORE DAMAGING, than stronger ones). He claims that this is because we have a natural biological defence mechanism - giving cancer protection against the EMF from lightning storms! Ie weak radio signals (weak enough not to "trip" this protection) are more cancerous.

 

If the above is true then it turns everything on its head! Maybe we should be looking for new apartments, built on top of an electrical substation, complete with 5G array right outside the window, and a GWEN tower across the road?

[LastOneLeftInTheCounty]

On 12/12/2023 at 2:48 AM, Chris P said:

 

Went a week or 2 smartphone-free which was an interesting time.

Must have been nice. 
 

After no internet since 2014, I bought one of those infernal devices last year. 
Can’t do without it now. 

Spent a lot of my side hustle profits on online retail (essential clothing etc) and I’m no happier than I was without all this shit. Starting to regret it.

 

Ive literally been physically and economically enslaved by this technology. 

 

Im a victim that’s fer shure 

 

[Chris P]

On 12/13/2023 at 8:36 PM, LastOneLeftInTheCounty said:

Must have been nice. 
 

After no internet since 2014, I bought one of those infernal devices last year. 
Can’t do without it now. 

Spent a lot of my side hustle profits on online retail (essential clothing etc) and I’m no happier than I was without all this shit. Starting to regret it.

 

Ive literally been physically and economically enslaved by this technology. 

 

Im a victim that’s fer shure 

 

It is dreadful isn't it? You did well to hold out so long.

No, my time without a phone was far from relaxing!

 

Having "shunned" Google backup services in its various forms for quite a while, I missed important meetings due to lack of a calendar.

Paid more than double price for a train fare (after being lied to by station staff (who's job ironically I have been fighting to keep, by using ticket offices & cash where I can).

 

Got lost trying to take shortcut in the dark and rain, ending up with mild hypothermia.

 

Noticed everywhere that signposts point the wrong way (how is it that kids can turn them around yet nobody can seemingly correct them?)

 

Worse, I realised how LOBOTOMISED people have become.  People no longer REGISTER in mind which buses & trains even visit their village. Even an old man swore blind to me their village now has no train station. NOBODY can even  give directions anymore.

 

Drenched & late for my train (having walked the first leg of my journey to the nearest town), I was shocked when despite being staffed, the guy behind the desk pointed out proudly that they have no paper timetables (COVID, innit) & they don't have any times up on the walls except for express services to Edinburgh ("which don't actually stop here") .

 

"Isn't you online yet??", the guy asked me twice - this is after I showed him my smashed phone. I pointed out that they COULD have put a timetable where all the screens of "penalty fares" are.

 

Nothing but blank looks from the robotic retard, & obnoxious tutting from the queue building up behind me.

 

Honestly, I just want OUT of all this shite! Easier said than done as you say.

[Macnamara]

On 12/12/2023 at 3:16 AM, Chris P said:

Just wondering, what do people here think of Barrie Trower? "I'll show you the papers which you can use effectively to fight these masts legally" - then doesn't actually show much of anything!

 

The legislation he was referring to is below. Trower says you can sue your neighbour for having a mast on their land by using that legislation as it may devalue your property. The government have effectively protected themselves by passing over the legal responsibility to the landowner so its them that you need to sue directly.

The Control of Electromagnetic Fields at Work Regulations 2016

The information on this page will help you understand what you need to do as an employer under the CEMFAW Regulations (PDF) which came into force in July 2016. It may also be useful to others with responsibility for health and safety, ie employees and safety representatives.

What must you do?

An employer is required to:

• assess the levels of EMFs to which your employees may be exposed;
• ensure that exposure is below exposure limit values (ELVs);
• take action if employees are exposed to EMFs in excess of the ELVs;
• when appropriate, devise and implement an action plan to ensure compliance with the exposure limits;
• when appropriate, assess the risks of employee's exposure and eliminate or minimise those risks. Ensure you take employees at particular risk, such as expectant mothers and employees with active or passive implanted or body worn medical devices, into account.
• provide information and training on the particular risks (if any) posed to employees by EMFs in the workplace and details of any action you are taking to remove or control them. This information should also be made available to their safety representatives as appropriate; and
• provide health surveillance or medical examination as appropriate.

The CEMFAW Regulations contains a Schedule which introduces limits, explains the effects of EMFs and provides details of safety conditions which must be met. In addition they allow the sensory-effects ELVs to be exceeded when certain safety conditions stated in the Schedule to the Regulations are met.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/radiation/nonionising/emf-regulations.htm

 

[LastOneLeftInTheCounty]

13 hours ago, Chris P said:

 

It is dreadful isn't it? You did well to hold out so long.

No, my time without a phone was far from relaxing!

 

Having "shunned" Google backup services in its various forms for quite a while, I missed important meetings due to lack of a calendar.

 

Paid more than double price for a train fare (after being lied to by station staff (who's job ironically I have been fighting to keep, by using ticket offices & cash where I can).

 

Got lost trying to take shortcut in the dark and rain, ending up with mild hypothermia.

 

Noticed everywhere that signposts point the wrong way (how is it that kids can turn them around yet nobody can seemingly correct them?)

 

Worse, I realised how LOBOTOMISED people have become.  People no longer REGISTER in mind which buses & trains even visit their village. Even an old man swore blind to me their village now has no train station. NOBODY can even  give directions anymore.

 

Drenched & late for my train (having walked the first leg of my journey to the nearest town), I was shocked when despite being staffed, the guy behind the desk pointed out proudly that they have no paper timetables (COVID, innit) & they don't have any times up on the walls except for express services to Edinburgh ("which don't actually stop here") .

 

"Isn't you online yet??", the guy asked me twice - this is after I showed him my smashed phone. I pointed out that they COULD have put a timetable where all the screens of "penalty fares" are.

 

Nothing but blank looks from the robotic retard, & obnoxious tutting from the queue building up behind me.

 

Honestly, I just want OUT of all this shite! Easier said than done as you say.

Maybe buy an iPhone instead of android?

 

Your story sounds unfortunate but a good reminder of how it used to be for me too. 
Yes I’ve found the people behind the ticket desk at train stations always try to sell you the most expensive, unnecessary ticket. Must be a sales tactic. 
 

It’ll get worse in time, but what happens when the power cuts start and there’s no electricity to charge these bloody things? 
 

With different apps integrating with standard services we used to enjoy without digitisation, and particularly if peoples lives or health depend on those services, what then? 
 

Personally I can’t wait for some EMP or ‘solar flare’ to knock this shit out, back to the stone age, people actually talking to people again, and hopefully no one will die as a result. 
 

Stuff will get done properly, the wartime spirit will come back. Make do and mend. 

[Chris P]

On 12/16/2023 at 11:07 AM, Macnamara said:

The legislation he was referring to is below. Trower says you can sue your neighbour for having a mast on their land by using that legislation as it may devalue your property. The government have effectively protected themselves by passing over the legal responsibility to the landowner so its them that you need to sue directly.

The Control of Electromagnetic Fields at Work Regulations 2016

 

Cheers nice one! Do you know of any verifiable success stories using the above legislation? Unfortunately I don't "own" any land to be devalued.

 

Not sure if this is relevant or affects the legislation above.. but Action Against 5G sent me an email update last week!

 

Disappointingly, they were previously refused the opportunity to appeal after losing their case in the high court:

 

Courts' Judgement (original case)

Judgement Received (AA5G Response)

 

It does seem as though the UK courts have been "cherry picking" the evidence they will hear. On a more hopeful note, Action Against 5G are now working to bring the case to the European Court of Human Rights:

 

https://actionagainst5g.org/case-updates/application-to-the-european-court-of-human-rights/

 

I'm hoping that if this is successful it will mean that the courts have to take into account case law from other European countries also? I'm not sure how the law works, but I've heard of cases in France including a farmer being compensated (milk production dropped by 25% after a 4G mast was erected nearby), and a separate case (woman was awarded disability benefits as she had to move to a remote location in the mountains, to escape the EMF.) 

[Chris P]

On 12/16/2023 at 4:34 PM, LastOneLeftInTheCounty said:

Maybe buy an iPhone instead of android?

 

Tbh I wouldn't trust Apple with personal data any more than I trust Google. They are both state compromised. Didn't Apple admit to scanning through all users' photos (*allegedly* looking for cp)..

 

There was that case of the guy in America (will add links if I come across them again) who sent his son's medical photos to the GP (at GP's request).. the AI kicked in & Apple colluded with other "tech giants" to shut his entire account, confiscate his phone number & email address. The FBI quickly cleared him of all wrongdoing - but were unable to contact him to say so Not sure if Apple have implemented any policy changes to prevent this happening again. 

 

iPhones also give some atrocious symptoms of EHS - worse for me than from any Android I've personally tested. I did try one for a while but had constant chirps/ear-popping sensations (microwave auditory effect) whenever I made a phone call. It also gave me painful burns (like a hot needle) on the arms & legs, whenever it happened to touch my skin lightly. Never had this happen with any other device.. I looked into it and apparently the SAR level is only within regulatory limits if it is held 5-15mm from the body - so not actually touching. Not sure how you'd achieve this in real life  

 

On 12/16/2023 at 4:34 PM, LastOneLeftInTheCounty said:

what happens when the power cuts start and there’s no electricity to charge these bloody things? 
 

With different apps integrating with standard services we used to enjoy without digitisation, and particularly if peoples lives or health depend on those services, what then? 
 

Personally I can’t wait for some EMP or ‘solar flare’ to knock this shit out, back to the stone age, people actually talking to people again, and hopefully no one will die as a result.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately but sadly I don't share your optimism.

 

Depending on the power of the "magnetic pulse, modern internal combustion engines won't function. 

Without electricity there will be no trains running to worry about. No signalling. 

 

Without mains electricity, freezers won't keep food cold. There will be no fresh deliveries. For how long will the tap water be potable, or even continue to run? 

 

Everyone fearful & hungry, rioting & looting of any supplies. No infrastructure to call emergency services - if they even continue to exist. The cabal will be hiding away in their superyachts & bunkers. The only thing that will be organised is the crime.

 

 

On 12/16/2023 at 4:34 PM, LastOneLeftInTheCounty said:

Stuff will get done properly, the wartime spirit will come back. Make do and mend. 

I reckon eventually it will, but it will be the "Post-Apocalyptic" generation that gets to enjoy it. There would be a huge die -off first.

 

I think this is likely part of their plan. Ie to get us absolutely dependent on technology before the plug is pulled. The Great Reset being the catastrophic event referenced on the Georgia Guidestones - humanity reduced to under 500,000,000 worldwide.

 

Who knows if it will go the whole hog? But either way there won't be much room for a learning curve. The more "off-grid" your lifestyle & location when the cataclysmic event occurs, the better your chances.

[Chris P]

On 11/30/2023 at 12:58 PM, Talorgan said:

I've seen local hospital having lots masks on roof of high  building and just below is maternity floors if I remember right ,crazy idea I would think especially if the energy goes downward 

During 2021-early 2022 I stayed regularly at a central hotel in a smallish city. They had a phone mast on the roof, and if I stayed on the upper floors of this hotel I would have the familiar symptoms of EMF exposure - tinnitus, chirping/ear popping sensations, troubled sleep.  

 

Needless to say I soon began requesting a room on the lower half of the building (it had around 10 floors total). I was reasonably ok here compared to within my home neighbourhood (which was rapidly becoming 5G'd). The city centre was quite run down but had a generally friendly atmosphere.

 

My final stay at this hotel was in October '22. Checking in all was normal, I was allocated the 4th floor which had been fine in the past. Over a period of around 20mins in the room however, things seemed to change. I had CONSTANT ear popping - counting over 100 non-stop (it's normally a count of 3-5, occasionally around 10 or so). Tinnitus gradually went from mild to dreadful. Headache & a "pressure in the head" sensation. 

 

I went out to the pub, and to visit the local all-night shop as I usually do. Definitely in need of booze for this situation! 

 

Everything seemed to have changed! People were now angry & impatient. Fights nearly broke out in the pub a couple of times. Bar staff were exhausted. The 24hr shop had locked its doors & were now serving only through a hatch - apparently they'd had a sudden spate of armed robberies. Waiting in the queue outside, one customer was messing about joking with another, he was threatened ominously with being "dropped". The atmosphere was very aggressive & I was glad to leave.

 

Walking back to the hotel (5-10mins walk), youths in balaclavas were openly selling hard drugs right outside the magistrates court! It's never been this blatant.

 

I only managed to sleep a couple of hours due to the headaches - woke up with blood all over pillow from nosebleeds.

 

By the light of day I could now see the brand new (directional) additional mast on top of the hotel roof. Lots of new masts on other nearby buildings too. Needless to say I haven't stayed there since. 

 

This shite seems to affect a lot of people without them necessarily noticing. It's the same case everywhere I've been - when the new masts are installed & the EMF is cranked up, everyone goes bonkers acting aggressively & impulsively. Who knows wtf it is doing to us on a cellular level?!

[LastOneLeftInTheCounty]

16 hours ago, Chris P said:

There would be a huge die -off first.

Already begun! 
 

15 hours ago, Chris P said:

I only managed to sleep a couple of hours due to the headaches - woke up with blood all over pillow from nosebleeds.

This sounds bad I didn’t know you were that electro sensitive, have you tried grounding yourself in these hotel rooms? 

Instead of accumulating an electromagnetic charge in your body, the voltage will pass straight through you into the ground wire, connected at your wrist, the other end is wound round the nearest radiator pipe work. 
 

Nosebleeds are bad news.

I can remember at primary school, about 80% of the boys in my class would get regular nosebleeds everyday. It was only me and a couple of other lads who didn’t get them. 
It was so bad the school nurse used to get us ‘non-bleeders’ to accompany the other boys to the nurses office.

 

Makes me think the lot of us were chipped or something, with experimental medical devices, bio telemetry sensors/transmitters etc. 

[LastOneLeftInTheCounty]

16 hours ago, Chris P said:

iPhones also give some atrocious symptoms of EHS - worse for me than from any Android I've personally tested. I did try one for a while but had constant chirps/ear-popping sensations (microwave auditory effect) whenever I made a phone call. It also gave me painful burns (like a hot needle) on the arms & legs, whenever it happened to touch my skin lightly. Never had this happen with any other device.. I looked into it and apparently the SAR level is only within regulatory limits if it is held 5-15mm from the body - so not actually touching. Not sure how you'd achieve this in real life  

Yep I’ve found that I get an itchy lower half of my body if I hold the phone for too long, it wears off if I don’t use it or stick it on flight mode

[Anti Facts Sir]

45 minutes ago, LastOneLeftInTheCounty said:

Nosebleeds are bad news.

I can remember at primary school, about 80% of the boys in my class would get regular nosebleeds everyday. It was only me and a couple of other lads who didn’t get them. 
It was so bad the school nurse used to get us ‘non-bleeders’ to accompany the other boys to the nurses office.

 

Makes me think the lot of us were chipped or something, with experimental medical devices, bio telemetry sensors/transmitters etc. 

That's very interesting...what era was this? mid-80s or earlier/later?

[LastOneLeftInTheCounty]

32 minutes ago, Anti Facts Sir said:

That's very interesting...what era was this? mid-80s or earlier/later?

Mid eighties early nineties, good guess, you know something? 

[Anti Facts Sir]

I've read that "something" (an early version of wi-fi) was switched on around 1984.

 

Whether this was nationally, globally...or whether that's as "late" as they want to admit to having the tech, I don't know.

[LastOneLeftInTheCounty]

57 minutes ago, Anti Facts Sir said:

I've read that "something" (an early version of wi-fi) was switched on around 1984.

 

Whether this was nationally, globally...or whether that's as "late" as they want to admit to having the tech, I don't know.

That makes sense