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What if depopulation is good?


johnkim

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12 minutes ago, Ethel said:

 

 

To be honest, I would be in favor of bringing procreation levels down for this reason alone. Most people who choose to procreate are not conscious enough to raise their children in a way which avoids harm and trauma.

 

 

With respect, in my experience karma is a belief system. Similar to someone who believes that the world is evil, they will experience an evil world, if you believe in karma you will probably experience karma. But is it true? When you understand that there are no discrete entities and therefore, no such thing at an absolute level - of personal responsibility. the question is asked, well who are you doing thi karmic act to? And who is doing it? Because human experiences do not control their thoughts or feelings, these are cosmic events - so how are they responsible for doing x to y? And why aren't the "bad" guys having a rotten time of it? I would have thought if karma exists they would be the first to be "punished".......but they're not in any provable experience, because they don't believe in karma. There is no karma in reality - it is a human concept which we can chose to enslave ourselves by or live freely from.

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5 minutes ago, Certified Green of Heart said:

 

Oh I dunno, it gets to be beyond words, all I can say just now is its like an never-ending work, but I think Buddhism (in some form) can help somewhat, all except its a bit hard to appreciate bowing to a statue but its all in context of the minds of the people and culture who get meaning and feeling of purpose from doing anything either religious, or staying well clear of that and just being happy with little personal rituals which as implicit meanings may ground a person in self wisdom, (perhaps as I tend to like to be, keeping those known largely only to myself until at least meeting like-minds to connect with and grow in the company of other souls which for a long time I have NOT had the privilege of)
Anyway~ small things of distinction but which can flow and have potential to spread as soul food if you like... However maybe all according to how smart other peoples perceptions are, except to be fair to note where intelligence is not always the first consideration.... In whatever sense or philosophical creation or elevating above the material world, all ways in which this can stretch out into the wider world is a good thing, if say a moral legacy is born by small actions, because as more people come to understand whats important in life, then it is given dignity, and by whatever way one can feels just, one can feel proud of that, doing good or whatever, but at the heart where possible realizing the importance of remaining modest to prevent ego clouding whatever comes next etc. 

Very interesting thank you.

 

Im still not sure what the soul is though. And if we cannot define it clearly and succinctly, should we give it much time and effort? 

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Just now, Mr H said:

Very interesting thank you.

 

Im still not sure what the soul is though. And if we cannot define it clearly and succinctly, should we give it much time and effort? 

 

Haha, yeah I know, it can get that way sometimes.... but a slower pace of life helps to keep everything, including soul, into proportion to whats perceivably real or in any way of value to an individual.

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13 minutes ago, Mr H said:

With respect, in my experience karma is a belief system. Similar to someone who believes that the world is evil, they will experience an evil world, if you believe in karma you will probably experience karma. 

 

100% agreed, in fact I believe a large part of what occurs after death is based on beliefs, and a lot of people believe in karma so this means they will undoubtedly face guilt/shame when they are shown their "life review". As someone who has no intention of going down the "tunnel of light" and who also experiences the negative consequences of their actions far more quickly than most people, there will be nothing for "them" to use against me.

 

13 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Because human experiences do not control their thoughts or feelings, these are cosmic events - so how are they responsible for doing x to y?

 

I see what you are saying... this doesn't matter, unfortunately. I have done enough research on NDE's to know that people are guilt farmed after leaving here, and opt to come back because of choices they made. We are a largely guilt-driven species. It doesn't matter if someone does harm unconsciously; they're still choosing to reincarnate here over and over again - wouldn't you agree?

 

13 minutes ago, Mr H said:

And why aren't the "bad" guys having a rotten time of it? I would have thought if karma exists they would be the first to be "punished".......but they're not in any provable experience

 

Untrue. The illuminati traumatize their own. I could tell you some of the stuff they do to their offspring, if you like? It's a vicious circle; a trap. I could talk all day about the semantics of good and evil.

 

13 minutes ago, Mr H said:

It is a human concept which we can chose to enslave ourselves by or live freely from.

 

Again, agreed, but the biggest problem is the socialization process. Most people use guilt and shame, plus positive/negative reinforcement as child-rearing tools. Which beings me back to my original point, actually.

Edited by Ethel
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1 minute ago, Certified Green of Heart said:

 

Haha, yeah I know, it can get that way sometimes.... but a slower pace of life helps to keep everything, including soul, into proportion to whats perceivably real or in any way of value to an individual.

I'm all for slower pace of life brother! :)

 

But when I look at my experience, everything that is essential has been given to us and is easy. I need food, I feel hungry I eat something. I need to sleep, my body gets tired I go to sleep etc. Why something so important as a soul (which we're still not sure what it is), is so difficult to find and experience?

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15 minutes ago, Mr H said:

With respect, in my experience karma is a belief system. Similar to someone who believes that the world is evil, they will experience an evil world, if you believe in karma you will probably experience karma. 

 

Thank you for making an excellent point - I went back, edited my original post and placed the words: 'negative karma' in quotation marks. Those whom believe in it will still be bound by it, however.

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4 minutes ago, Ethel said:

 

100% agreed, in fact I believe a large part of what occurs after death is based on beliefs, and a lot of people believe in karma so this means they will undoubtedly face guilt/shame when they are shown their "life review". As someone who has no intention of going down the "tunnel of light" and who also experiences the negative consequences of their actions far more quickly than most people, there will be nothing for "them" to use against me.

 

 

I see what you are saying... this doesn't matter, unfortunately. I have done enough research on NDE's to know that people are guilt farmed after leaving here, and opt to come back because of choices they made. We are a largely guilt-driven species. It doesn't matter if someone does harm unconsciously; they're still choosing to reincarnate here over and over again - wouldn't you agree?

 

 

Untrue. The illuminati traumatize their own. I could tell you some of the stuff they do to their offspring, if you like? It's a vicious circle; a trap. I could talk all day about the semantics of good and evil.

 

 

Again, agreed, but the biggest problem if the socialization process. Most people use guilt and shame, plus positive/negative reinforcement as child-rearing tools. Which beings me back to my original point, actually.

Apologies Ethel can't seem to do the cutting of quotes...

 

That's very interesting to hear about the NDEs, I have never look into those experiences. and I don't know anything about life reviews or tunnels of light so can't comment.

 

regarding choices. There is no choice for people in reality. Because thoughts and feelings which drives actions, come to the human experience as cosmic events - we do not choose them (if you think we do then try and sit down now and plan out your thoughts for the next ten minutes). We also do not select between thoughts and feelings. The selection illusion is an afterthought in a series of thought activities. I.e. thought no 1 is the question, thought no 2 is the answer, thought no 3 is the claiming of the answer by the ego, or thought. So no one really is choosing to do anything, except if we speak on the absolute level - that is it is conscioucness itself that is choosing everything - which is one entity if we can define it as such. There are no multiplicity of entities and no entities are doing anything to other entities. This thinking belongs to the illusion. And this type of thinking leads to the belief system of karma. He did that to me so x is going to happen to them!

 

Yes I agree that from what I see a lot of parents to not seem to be bringing up their children intelligently or lovingly

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Apologies Ethel can't seem to do the cutting of quotes...

That's very interesting to hear about the NDEs, I have never look into those experiences. and I don't know anything about life reviews or tunnels of light so can't comment.

regarding choices. There is no choice for people in reality. Because thoughts and feelings which drives actions, come to the human experience as cosmic events - we do not choose them (if you think we do then try and sit down now and plan out your thoughts for the next ten minutes). We also do not select between thoughts and feelings. The selection illusion is an afterthought in a series of thought activities. I.e. thought no 1 is the question, thought no 2 is the answer, thought no 3 is the claiming of the answer by the ego, or thought. So no one really is choosing to do anything, except if we speak on the absolute level - that is it is conscioucness itself that is choosing everything - which is one entity if we can define it as such. There are no multiplicity of entities and no entities are doing anything to other entities. This thinking belongs to the illusion. And this type of thinking leads to the belief system of karma. He did that to me so x is going to happen to them!

Yes I agree that from what I see a lot of parents to not seem to be bringing up their children intelligently or lovingly

 

Hmm, interesting. Your argument seems to be that because everything is a unified field, there is no separation, therefore there cannot be free will? I am guessing you are making an argument for determinism?

 

I think that the idea of the unified field is an interesting one and it's what I personally belief, but it is very difficult to "hold onto" that perception; I can grasp it for short periods, and have definitely become much better at spotting the cause and effect of my life but...

 

The unified field is least applicable to earth realm. The illusion of separation was how source consciousness wanted to experience itself, or so many ancient texts tell us anyway. As I have said many times, I don't think the biggest problem on earth is ego, I think it is the unobserved ego.

 

Either way, interesting post.

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37 minutes ago, Ethel said:

 

Hmm, interesting. Your argument seems to be that because everything is a unified field, there is no separation, therefore there cannot be free will? I am guessing you are making an argument for determinism?

 

I think that the idea of the unified field is an interesting one and it's what I personally belief, but it is very difficult to "hold onto" that perception; I can grasp it for short periods, and have definitely become much better at spotting the cause and effect of my life but...

 

The unified field is least applicable to earth realm. The illusion of separation was how source consciousness wanted to experience itself, or so many ancient texts tell us anyway. As I have said many times, I don't think the biggest problem on earth is ego, I think it is the unobserved ego.

 

Either way, interesting post.

There is free will but only for the one that truly exists. Individual entities do not exist. There is an apparent separation into individual discrete entities, humans, tables etc but as I mentioned and described the mentation process, these apparant discrete entities have no choice and therefore no free will. This does not mean that there is determinism, just free will for infinite consciousness only, who can choose freely to do as it wishes.

 

How I reach the conclusion that there is no separation is from simple experience. If I check out my experience I first notice that I see the tree. When I investigate closer I can reduce this to just the activity of seeing. I can then reduce this to knowing of the seeing object, which I can finally reduce down to pure knowing which I term infinite consciousness. When I then explore the qualities of knowing; my primary experience of everything and the one that never changes, ,I experience that there is no limit, there is no edge, it doesn't stop and start at discrete points. You could also view this from a non spiritual perspective, and ask the question, where do I begin and where does the table over there begin? Science tells us there is no such thing as empty space so it must all be linked. It is only through concepts that we arrive at defining things individually as chairs tables humans etc..... it just helps us navigate this experience.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mr H
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@Mr H I will have to call a halt to this for now... tried to send you a PM, (*will save as draft offline for another time*) coz now as an oldie/recycled into 'newbie' (ex-TETRA G) member by how restarting an account does this in reset kinda way, I am at present (or so it would seem) invalidated from being allowed to PM anyone (except Mods) at present it would appear, although bizarrely I DID have some success last week PMing Macnamara, so thats odd, but not with 2 or more other ordinary non-Mod members I have tried contacting since. Same thing happens}} "this person cannot receive PMs".

Edited by Certified Green of Heart
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5 minutes ago, Certified Green of Heart said:

@Mr H I will have to call a halt to this for now... tried to send you a PM, (*will save as draft offline for another time*) coz now as an oldie/recycled into 'newbie' (ex-TETRA G) member by how restarting an account does this in reset kinda way, I am at present (or so it would seem) invalidated from being allowed to PM anyone (except Mods) at present it would appear, although bizarrely I DID have some success last week PMing Macnamara, so thats odd, but not with 2 or more other ordinary non-Mod members I have tried contacting since. Same thing happens}} "this person cannot receive PMs".

Sorry I have been away for many months and just logged in late last night my inbox was full. should work now I sent you a test PM.

 

Best.

 

Mr H

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7 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Science tells us there is no such thing as empty space so it must all be linked. It is only through concepts that we arrive at defining things individually as chairs tables humans etc..... it just helps us navigate this experience.

 

That's how newborn babies operate; they perceive everything as self. They perceive their own Mother as them.

 

Just out of curiosity, what percentage of your life would you say is lived from this perception? I can usually guess what aspects of me different people in my life represent but a percentage of the time I am still "caught in the illusion".

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16 minutes ago, Ethel said:

 

That's how newborn babies operate; they perceive everything as self. They perceive their own Mother as them.

 

Just out of curiosity, what percentage of your life would you say is lived from this perception? I can usually guess what aspects of me different people in my life represent but a percentage of the time I am still "caught in the illusion".

Yes I suspect because that is more in line with reality. It's only when they're told and taught how to survive that they develop a sense of self, which we could call the ego, and is necessary if they want to survive. they need to distinguish between themselves and mother in order to find food for example. this is why we have an ego if we can call it such a thing. It's part of the development process of experience here. We then forget to educate them about their true nature, and everyone gets stuck in the ego, culture goes ego crazy and we end up where we are in this experience.

 

I do not knowingly experience as a new born does. I have been conditioned. And I'm not sure I would want to. It would make life quite difficult as explained above. (difficult to feed yourself for eg if you experienced everything as the same thing).

 

If I go to my primary experience that is experience prior to activity which is available at any moment, then there is the sense that everything is connected, but I don't think it is experienced the same way a baby does.

 

Additional. Essentially, in order for there to be human manifestation, we need to believe that we are separate at some stage in order to survive for the illusion to exist. For the game to be in play. It doesn't mean it's true and it doesn't hold true when we do a proper investigation. So the ego is the price we have to pay for manifestation.

Edited by Mr H
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39 minutes ago, Ethel said:

Again, agreed, but the biggest problem is the socialization process. Most people use guilt and shame, plus positive/negative reinforcement as child-rearing tools. Which beings me back to my original point, actually.

  

You're quite right that this is the default way of parenting we pick up from society, but there are others. I'm trying to use Therapeutic Parenting and the PACE model with my child but it's like trying to deprogramme myself from the social norms. I believe if we can overcome the guilt, shame and general traumas etc then we will create more well-adjusted families with young people who grow up to like being parents themselves, thus creating a sustainable community. I've known many people who grew up in dysfunctional families (due to a dysfunctional cult controlled society) and did not want to repeat the same mistakes so had none or few children. Leading to the depopulation and mass immigration we have today. 

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1 hour ago, Mr H said:

With respect, in my experience karma is a belief system. Similar to someone who believes that the world is evil, they will experience an evil world, if you believe in karma you will probably experience karma. But is it true? When you understand that there are no discrete entities and therefore, no such thing at an absolute level - of personal responsibility. the question is asked, well who are you doing thi karmic act to? And who is doing it? Because human experiences do not control their thoughts or feelings, these are cosmic events - so how are they responsible for doing x to y? And why aren't the "bad" guys having a rotten time of it? I would have thought if karma exists they would be the first to be "punished".......but they're not in any provable experience, because they don't believe in karma. There is no karma in reality - it is a human concept which we can chose to enslave ourselves by or live freely from.

you sound confused about what karma even means. You have poor understanding of the word and it shows…and read this https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/karma.html

 

ive studied buddhism for years. It takes a very deep understanding of many concepts to understand what karma truly means.

 

Karma is the universal law. the law of cause and effect. Put simply.

 

If you dont believe in karma, who cares? As long as your a moral being, whether you believe or not dont matter.

at the time of death, your karma will affect where your mind go. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Youknownothingbutyou said:

you sound confused about what karma even means. You have poor understanding of the word and it shows…and read this https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/karma.html

 

ive studied buddhism for years. It takes a very deep understanding of many concepts to understand what karma truly means.

 

Karma is the universal law. the law of cause and effect. Put simply.

 

If you dont believe in karma, who cares? As long as your a moral being, whether you believe or not dont matter.

at the time of death, your karma will affect where your mind go. 

 

TY for your assumptions. 😊

 

If you believe in it and study it, then I say that's fantastic.

 

May I ask after all those years of deep study, what evidence you found for it's existence?

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Mr H said:

TY for your assumptions. 😊

 

If you believe in it and study it, then I say that's fantastic.

 

May I ask after all those years of deep study, what evidence you found for it's existence?

 

 

 

 

Its not assumptions, its plain obvious you have no real understanding of buddhism. I dont blame you, but dont pretend either.

 

You should look up the Annata concept in buddhism. Its, along impermanence and suffering, the core teaching. Annata is non-self. Thisdirectly answers your questions about who exactly makes karma if beings are empty.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/selvesnotself.html

"

Form, monks, is not-self. If form were self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let my form be thus. Let my form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not-self, this form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let my form be thus. Let my form not be thus.'

"Feeling is not self...

"Perception is not self...

"Fabrications are not self...

"Consciousness is not-self. If consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not-self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'"

 SN 22.59"

 

 

 

As for your question, how do i know that life is cyclical, that theres life after death and that our actions determine our next life? ;)

 

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13 hours ago, Youknownothingbutyou said:

Its not assumptions, its plain obvious you have no real understanding of buddhism. I dont blame you, but dont pretend either.

 

You should look up the Annata concept in buddhism. Its, along impermanence and suffering, the core teaching. Annata is non-self. Thisdirectly answers your questions about who exactly makes karma if beings are empty.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/selvesnotself.html

"

Form, monks, is not-self. If form were self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let my form be thus. Let my form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not-self, this form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let my form be thus. Let my form not be thus.'

"Feeling is not self...

"Perception is not self...

"Fabrications are not self...

"Consciousness is not-self. If consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not-self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'"

 SN 22.59"

 

 

 

As for your question, how do i know that life is cyclical, that theres life after death and that our actions determine our next life? ;)

 

HI there. I didn't realise re-incarnation is exclusive to Buddhism! 

 

I have not pretended to know anything about Buddhism, in fact I have not studied it at all.

 

I don't understand the rest of your post.

 

I was just curious to know after so many years of study what evidence you found of karma existing. Just because personally I don't want to study something if at the end of it, there is no evidence to support the theory or concepts taught. I don't wish to live in a world of concepts, abstractions and beliefs - that's why I was curious, to see if what you write is worth studying from your experience.

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2 hours ago, Mr H said:

HI there. I didn't realise re-incarnation is exclusive to Buddhism! 

 

I have not pretended to know anything about Buddhism, in fact I have not studied it at all.

 

I don't understand the rest of your post.

 

I was just curious to know after so many years of study what evidence you found of karma existing. Just because personally I don't want to study something if at the end of it, there is no evidence to support the theory or concepts taught. I don't wish to live in a world of concepts, abstractions and beliefs - that's why I was curious, to see if what you write is worth studying from your experience.

 

 

you keep on using the work Karma without understanding its meaning.

 

You dont understand the meaning of Karma. 

 

"

If we want to understand kamma and rebirth correctly, we have to see them in the light of non-self. They proclaim non-self quite vividly and yet most people usually don't take that into consideration at all, but talk about "my" kamma and "my" rebirth. Especially "my" rebirth, which is absurd. Do they mean the last one or future one? Do we think it will be "me" again? However in ordinary language we have little choice, yet the spoken word has evolved out of our thinking processes.

 

People often ask what is reborn, if it isn't "me"? Kamma as a residual effect in the rebirth consciousness is reborn, but it certainly doesn't look or act like the one we know, doesn't have the same name, may not have the same form or sex, may not even be human. It has no other connection than kamma. Since we can see quite clearly that the one who is reborn only connects through kamma in the rebirth consciousness with a previous life, we can see just as clearly that kamma is impersonal, without identity. While we talk about "my" kamma, it's really an impersonal process. It is not crime and punishment, although it may appear like that, and is one of the most commonly held views. Many of our entrenched views are so deeply ingrained that it becomes extremely difficult to understand anything radically different."

https://www.vipassana.com/meditation/khema/hereandnow/kamma_is_intention.html

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Youknownothingbutyou said:

 

what evidence of karma existing?

you keep on using the work Karma without understanding its meaning.

 

You dont understand the meaning of Karma.

 

"

If we want to understand kamma and rebirth correctly, we have to see them in the light of non-self. They proclaim non-self quite vividly and yet most people usually don't take that into consideration at all, but talk about "my" kamma and "my" rebirth. Especially "my" rebirth, which is absurd. Do they mean the last one or future one? Do we think it will be "me" again? However in ordinary language we have little choice, yet the spoken word has evolved out of our thinking processes.

 

People often ask what is reborn, if it isn't "me"? Kamma as a residual effect in the rebirth consciousness is reborn, but it certainly doesn't look or act like the one we know, doesn't have the same name, may not have the same form or sex, may not even be human. It has no other connection than kamma. Since we can see quite clearly that the one who is reborn only connects through kamma in the rebirth consciousness with a previous life, we can see just as clearly that kamma is impersonal, without identity. While we talk about "my" kamma, it's really an impersonal process. It is not crime and punishment, although it may appear like that, and is one of the most commonly held views. Many of our entrenched views are so deeply ingrained that it becomes extremely difficult to understand anything radically different."

https://www.vipassana.com/meditation/khema/hereandnow/kamma_is_intention.html

 

hope this helps

Thank you you keep telling me I don't know what it means...

 

All I was asking was you said you do and have studied it for many years, so I was curious what evidence you found? It's not a trick question or anything.

 

thank you for sharing the above. But this again is just theory, someone telling how it is, it's not evidence. Interesting anyways.

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1 minute ago, Mr H said:

Thank you you keep telling me I don't know what it means...

 

All I was asking was you said you do and have studied it for many years, so I was curious what evidence you found? It's not a trick question or anything.

 

thank you for sharing the above. But this again is just theory, someone telling how it is, it's not evidence. Interesting anyways.

evidence of what?

you keep on asking evidence on a concept you dont understand

 

do you get how absurd this is?

 

https://www.vipassana.com/meditation/khema/hereandnow/kamma_is_intention.html

 

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