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Christian Zionism

Hegel Schmegel
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Hegel Schmegel

Hegel Schmegel

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Note: I express the following as one who is both non-Christian and a Gentile, yet who nevertheless possesses a deep interest in Bible-related subjects.

 

The common view shared by many who despise Christian Zionism is one that is often not based on an accurate understanding of its true biblical form.

 

In David Icke's recent works, for example, Christian Zionists are perceived as a gullible group of people who have bought into the idea that the modern-day creation of the state of Israel is proof of some fulfillment of Bible prophecy when, as Icke believes, in actuality there's been no providential hand in this whatsoever, chalking this landmark event up to the work of the Rothschilds, Sabbatians and other strictly geopolitical agenda-driven elites.

 

Such dismissiveness of Christian Zionism is not entirely without merit, for it may very well be a case of Israel's statehood having no divine approval at all, which would make the generally fundamentalist Christian Zionist certainly appear misguided and foolish, indeed.

 

It is to be emphasized, however, that not all Christian Zionists adhere to the idea that Israel's establishment as a nation re-born in 1948 is necessarily proof of fulfilled Bible prophecy. To such ones, it does seem likely of this having been the first step along the path towards a future ushering in of a Messianic Kingdom, however temporal the affairs surrounding this rebirth appears to have been. And yet, if God's redeeming plan for humankind is to see to Israel playing a significant key role, there is always the possibility of a 'satanic overshadowing' going on here, involving in this case the so-called Sabbatians/pseudo-Zionists, temporarily engaged in a spiritual upstage of sorts, to be divinely removed at some point in the future in God's appointed time, by Christ and his angels; the effect of this hypothetical scenario mirroring in a sense Yahweh's serpent of yore that swallowed up and devoured the materialized snake of Pharaoh's black magicians.

 

Whether or not this proves to be is a moot point to the Bible believers who identify themselves as ones who adhere to 'biblical' Christian Zionism -- such ones to be distinguished from the more public and caricaturized display of Christian Zionism, whose followers staunchly preach 1948 as an all-important year in the biblical timetable and who may even actively involve themselves in or support ways in which to try and hasten the Second Advent. To the former of the two groups, such behavior constitutes heresy, and is what is termed dominionism, whereas 'biblical/scriptural' Christian Zionism neither involves itself with politics nor does it actively seek to quicken Christ's Return.

 

In other words, whether a Third Temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem is not a major concern of 'biblical' Christian Zionists, insofar as they have faith that Christ shall eventually/inevitably return at some point to establish his reign on 'Mount Zion,' regardless of what 'upstagers' or secular Israelites do or not do with regards to a temple re-construction.

 

The common mistake, then, that most if not all critics of Christian Zionism makes, is in their assuming that all Christian Zionists are as those whom they despise and/or ridicule when such ones are perceived as 'pseudo' by 'biblical' Christian Zionists who do not adhere to what is termed dispensationalist theology (a whole other discussion).

 

In this posting, I have limited myself to raising awareness as to this important distinction, yet for anyone interested in a scriptural analysis of this subject I highly recommend reading Defending Christian Zionism by David Pawson, which articulately and cogently refutes the belief that the church has somehow replaced or superseded ethnic Israel (which I too believe it hasn't).

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novymir

novymir

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You say :

"In David Icke's recent works[regarding Christian zionism]",..........  "are perceived as"..........., ............."as Icke believes".............. ........."

 

 

I say; David Icke KNOWS.

 

Whereas you seem to be grasping at straws to keep from knowing.

 

Sorry but, David Pawson was just another shill-dupe for anti-Christ.

 

His teachings are lies.

 

But then again, on this forum, who gives a shit about them anyways most people here are way beyond that garbage.

 

The "old testament" is like a 50 gallon vat of shite, with a dozen or so pearls thrown it it. It's not really worth digging them out, when there are much, much, cleaner sources available.

 

But one can only know of them if they defer to The Spirit of Truth within. The ego is clueless. And always will be.

 

The 2nd coming of Christ is always NOW, and internal, until The End of Time. It is voluntary acceptance of Truth Above All.

 

 

 

 

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Hegel Schmegel

Hegel Schmegel

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A misconception exists among 'Christian' non-Zionists and 'Christian' anti-Zionists especially, which states that no where in the New Testament does it speak of Israel being restored as a nation, and that this idea of God guaranteeing the land of Palestine to a restored Israel has its basis not in Scripture but originates entirely with a 19th-century Protestant heresy (or according to others, a 16th-century Jesuit conspiracy).

 

Part of this confusion discovered among 'Christian' anti-Zionists stems from the fact that these ones fail to recognize the 66 canonical books of the Bible as constituting a unified -- coherent and complementary -- whole. True, no where does it explicitly mention in the 'New' Testament of a return of Jews to Palestine, but as a whole the Bible most certainly does, with the so-called 'Old' Testament quite unequivocal as to this teaching. As all Scripture is said to be inspired of God, the Bible is therefore meant to be read and understood in its entirety.

 

As many a Bible scholar has pointed out, the word testament is synonymous with the word covenant and that a fundamental error on the part of those responsible for compiling the Bible was in their misnaming of these two parts of Scripture. In labelling the Hebrew Scriptures 'Old' this suggests that all the covenants God made with Israel (there were 5 in total) as recorded in these Hebrew texts, are somehow all made obsolete with the appearance of the 'New' testament scriptures. Some Bible scholars lament this improper terminology, and wish instead these two portions of Scripture were more accurately referred to as Hebrew and Greek, instead of Old and New.

 

As to this Jesuit conspiracy which some 'Christian' anti-Zionists maintain, it goes like this: about the time soon after the Protestant Reformation in 1517 the Jesuits introduced the Christian Zionist concept, with the works of writers such as Francisco Ribera (circa 1585), who wrote that there would come a time when there would be a rebuilding of the temple, for the sake of an Antichrist appearance. Such is how, so these 'Christian' anti-Zionists claim, the teaching of futurism (a future return of Christ) began -- with the Catholics/Jesuits so they say, and thus a heresy.

 

In actuality, however, futurism did not begin with the Jesuits or with some strain of heretical Protestantism, but has its origins in Scripture itself.

 

For starters, the Book of Revelation is a futurist text, said to have been completed circa 96 AD, which annuls preterist teaching, that believes each and every last prophecy contained in Scripture has already been fulfilled, with the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD having been the proverbial final nail in the coffin (taken as a sign that God has somehow rejected the Jewish people). However, just as the Great Tribulation has clearly yet to be fulfilled, so too the appearance of an individual Antichrist (individual, as the Bible speaks of his one day occupying God's holy temple). The Apostles of Christ were restorationists themselves, not rejectionists (as clearly evidenced at Acts 1:6). Moreover, the Book of Revelation contains prophecies in which the land of Israel plays a key role in End Times events.

 

So for one to say that futurism (a central doctrine within Christian Zionism) began with the Jesuits of the 16th century or a few centuries afterwards is simply not true. The early Church Fathers (Polycarp, Barnabas, Iranaeus, Justin Martyr) were premillennial futurists themselves, at a time only a few decades removed from the Apostolic period, and years before the apostate takeover of Christianity by the Roman Catholic Church, beginning with Emperor Constantine.

 

In the very first book of the Bible, a land promise is given by God to the Hebrews/Israelites that was and is, according to this holy book, unconditional in the grand scheme of things, regardless of their faithfulness to Him as a people, as this covenant was and remains the means by which the LORD is to carry out his will for mankind on earth.

 

Most if not all traditional (and dispensationalist/dominionist, a.k.a. heretical) Christian Zionists admit that the state of Israel in its present state is not a godly nation, and mostly secular. This, however, does not necessarily disprove a providential hand in its overall destiny.

 

Admittedly, Pawson, for one, acknowledges in this afore-highlighted book of his the role that Britain had in helping to pave the way in the 1800s for a Jewish migration to Palestine. Yet any student of the Bible knows that God has always used unbelievers and even entire pagan nations every now and then to help carry out his will (unbeknownst to them), what with God being the ultimate be-all-and-end-all puller of strings.

 

The exodus that was of Jews from Germany and surrounding lands to Palestine, during and immediately following WW2, some have interpreted as a satanic (Sabbatian) doing when its very opposite is or may be the case. (Indeed, for one to say that the Jewish homeland does not benefit the Jews is a comment that sounds almost if not utterly satanic in spirit.)

 

So even if or although the Star of David hexagram had its origins with the Rothschilds and appears on the flag of Israel, this does not necessarily disprove God's overriding influence in matters, as one who is ultimately sovereign and in the end the ruler of all nations and peoples.

 

In other words, the faithless Mossad and other ungodly usurpers posing as Zionists (Zionism being at its core a theocracy as opposed to a political movement), may be oppressors to some degree, but such ones are not an accurate representation of Zionists as defined in Scripture and as perceived by God.

 

As far as biblical/scriptural Christian Zionists see it, Zionism in its truest sense is not worldly at all, but in fact refers to a theocracy and, this being so, is a concept which predates political (man-made) Zionism.

 

Postscript: Aside from the book I've herein-above recommended, I also would recommend to anyone interested in a better understanding of biblical Christian Zionism to listen to some of David Pawson's discourses that can be found online. One, in particular, is especially worth listening to: entitled "Replacement Theology -- Too Anti-Israel." In this talk, Pawson also briefly touches on the practice among 'Christian' non-Zionists (the cult groups among this camp, in particular) of spiritualizing Bible passages (e.g. as with the End of Days temple desecration) and reading allegorically into verses meant to be taken in a literal sense. (Here I think of the 'Christian' non-Zionists who teach that Christ's "invisible" return occurred in 1844 or in 1914.) David Pawson is by far my favorite Christian preacher/teacher, who has left us with many exceptional discourses on a variety of Bible-related topics and on various aspects pertaining to Christianity. His talk on Capitalism as it relates to Christians is especially noteworthy, as is his talk on the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses/the history of Charles Taze Russell.

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Hegel Schmegel

Hegel Schmegel

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17 hours ago, novymir said:

You say :

"In David Icke's recent works[regarding Christian zionism]",..........  "are perceived as"..........., ............."as Icke believes".............. ........."

 

 

I say; David Icke KNOWS.

 

Whereas you seem to be grasping at straws to keep from knowing.

 

Sorry but, David Pawson was just another shill-dupe for anti-Christ.

 

His teachings are lies.

 

But then again, on this forum, who gives a shit about them anyways most people here are way beyond that garbage.

 

The "old testament" is like a 50 gallon vat of shite, with a dozen or so pearls thrown it it. It's not really worth digging them out, when there are much, much, cleaner sources available.

 

But one can only know of them if they defer to The Spirit of Truth within. The ego is clueless. And always will be.

 

The 2nd coming of Christ is always NOW, and internal, until The End of Time. It is voluntary acceptance of Truth Above All.

 

 

 

 

 

I simply couldn't let some of the comments you make go unanswered.

 

Clearly, you have a distorted impression of Pawson and where he's coming from.

 

Secondly, I have the utmost respect for David Icke and his life's work fighting for freedom, even though I disagree (perhaps emphatically) with his opinion of Christian Zionism as he has understood it to be. I don't consider that a reason for me to go asking for divine forgiveness.

 

As memory serves, I've heard Icke express more than once how he's not out to have us all think like cult members. 'Take it or leave it' has been his attitude with regard to the information he presents. Does Icke think himself omniscient? That I don't know and shall remain in doubt about.

 

For the record, I've defended Icke's work countless times when speaking to ones in person, and in print, and have even encouraged others to read The Trigger even though I do not agree with some of its conclusions.

 

Before attacking the messenger (in this case Pawson's character) in kneejerk fashion (as many critics do Icke, who quickly write him off using any number of smears) all I've done is encourage readers to go check out Pawson's material for themselves. Whether one accepts everything he says is left up to each individual to decide. 

 

In defense of Pawson, as one familiar with his work, I would say he spoke the truth as he read it to be from Scripture, mildly and lovingly yet always uncompromisingly, to the point that some of his honest-hearted and more 'controversial' Bible-based sermons/stances sometimes ruffled the feathers of even those among the faithful. (Take Hell. Pawson freely admitted he never liked teaching it but went about teaching it anyway, so true he was in wanting to keep to what he understood the Bible to teach.) 

 

Pawson described himself as an 'unorthodox evangelical' and his published memoirs (Not As Bad As The Truth) shows the likable man behind the likable minister.

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novymir

novymir

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Jesus said:

"Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Matthew 7

 

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"God approves of wars of extermination"... David Pawson. (I stopped listening at that point).

https://archive.org/details/DavidPawsonProblemsOfFaithIn20thCenturyDoesGodApproveOfWar

 
Search results for: utterly destroy
 
293 verses with all terms, 2003 verses with some. Showing up to 25.
... and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them. All that was despised and ... that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and ...
... only a short time; then you will be utterly destroyed. I call heaven and earth to ... will not live there long but will certainly be destroyed. "Today I call on heaven and ...
... of the ground, except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob," declares ... LORD are on the sinful kingdom. I will destroy it from the face of the earth. ...
... we had done to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children ... We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every ...
... meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no ... wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, ...
... you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant ... and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them ...
... and donkeys. " Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do ... Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not ...
... all these nations round about; and I will utterly destroy them and make them a horror and ... against all the surrounding nations. I will completely destroy them and make them an object of horror ...
... in it with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them; there was no one left ... it they put to the sword. They totally destroyed them, not sparing anyone that breathed, ...
... heard that Joshua had captured Ai, and had utterly destroyed it (just as he had done ... Jerusalem heard that Joshua had taken Ai and totally destroyed it, doing to Ai and its king ...
... king with the edge of the sword; he utterly destroyed it and every person who was in ... city and its king to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it. He left no survivors ...
... on a mission, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and ... on a mission, saying, Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; wage ...
... this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities." So Israel made ... these people into our hands, we will totally destroy their cities." Then the people of ...
... God has commanded you, "But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite ... Completely destroy them- the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites- as the ...
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... we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of ... that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them- men, women and children. We ...
... Israel and delivered up the Canaanites; then they utterly destroyed them and their cities. Thus the ... gave the Canaanites over to them. They completely destroyed them and their towns; so the place ...
... them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed them; just as Moses the servant ... and put them to the sword. He totally destroyed them, as Moses the servant of the ...
... all the gods of those nations which my fathers utterly destroyed who could deliver his people out of ... all the gods of these nations that my predecessors destroyed has been able to save his people from ...
... from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua utterly destroyed them with their cities. And at ... At that time Joshua went and destroyed the Anakites from the hill country: from Hebron, ...
... stood up against the inhabitants of Mount Seir to utterly kill and destroy them. And when they ... rose up against the men from Mount Seir to destroy and annihilate them. After they finished slaughtering ...
... And against the inhabitants of Pekod. Slay and utterly destroy them," declares the LORD, ... live in Pekod. Pursue, kill and completely destroy them," declares the LORD. " ...
... Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. For we have heard how the ... Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. For we have heard how the LORD ...
... Meunites who were found there, and destroyed them utterly to this day, and lived in their ... and also the Meunites who were there and completely destroyed them, as is evident to this day ...
... they struck the Canaanites living in Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. So the name of the ... the Canaanites living in Zephath, and they totally destroyed the city. Therefore it was called Hormah ...

 
 

 

 

BY THEIR FRUITS YOU WILL KNOW THEM.



 

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Jesus said:

"“My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm.”.

 

"Do not love the world or the things it offers you, if you love the world the love of GOD is not in you".

 

"GOD IS LOVE". "GOD IS SPIRIT".

 

“Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?”

Jesus declared, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” .

 

 

 

 

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Edited by novymir
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