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Scottish independence vote 2.0?


Nefaria
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1 hour ago, Macnamara said:

i have no fear of russia. I have more concern about the people running britain

I agree with you on this point, it's the people already in charge that are the cause to most of our problems and it's those that we should be most concerned about.  However I don't agree we your side of the argument about immigration, I believe blaming stuff on them is fed to us by the establishment so they can further divide and control us!

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7 hours ago, pi3141 said:

I think the Scottish people should stay with UK but put up an entirely SNP cabinet to get the best deal from Westminster. If SNP held all seats then they would be more of a force in Westminster and with a strong SNP leadership they could ensure they get the best deal while retaining the security of being in the Union.

There are people in other parts of the UK that want independence from Westminster.  We get fed up of the uneven distribution of resources and London centric diktats. You can shove the UK monarchy and House of Lords where the sun don't shine. 

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26 minutes ago, Nefaria said:

  However I don't agree we your side of the argument about immigration, I believe blaming stuff on them is fed to us by the establishment so they can further divide and control us!

 

that's because you are thinking from a place of consciousness of ''what do i like the sound of''

 

but i am speaking from a place of consciousness of ''what is the truth as pertains to our reality''

 

i am right in what i say and how someone feels about what i say doesn't change that

 

at the end of the day things boil down to food, water, shelter, fuel at the most basic level and then above that are things like education and social cohesion. Mass migration puts pressure on all of those things. That's just an objective reality and no amount of wishing that away changes that objective reality

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3 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

Mass migration puts pressure on all of those things

You do realise just as many people leave the UK as well as come here?  Migration isn't just a one way street.  It is hardly ever mentioned by the likes of the MSM, I wonder why that is.... 🤔. Even on this very forum it's hardly ever mentioned!

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3 minutes ago, Nefaria said:

You do realise just as many people leave the UK as well as come here?  Migration isn't just a one way street.  It is hardly ever mentioned by the likes of the MSM, I wonder why that is.... 🤔. Even on this very forum it's hardly ever mentioned!

 

that is not factually correct

STEPHEN GLOVER: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

By Stephen Glover for the Daily Mail

Published: 01:13 BST, 30 June 2022 | Updated: 02:02 BST, 30 June 2022

Some extraordinary figures about population growth were published on Tuesday by the Office for National Statistics, though they attracted very little comment from the BBC or much of the mainstream media.

Between 2011 and 2021, the population of England and Wales grew by a staggering 3.5 million, or about 6.6 per cent. Since during this period net migration was usually running at over 200,000 a year, and occasionally at more than 300,000, the main cause of the rapid expansion isn't hard to fathom.

Most of the population growth took place in the South-East, parts of London (up 22.1 per cent in Tower Hamlets, though there was a 9.6 per cent decline in Kensington and Chelsea) and Eastern England, where it rose by a whopping 8.3 per cent.

Imagine a city the size of Nottingham. Then one as big as Bristol. Add Birmingham. Then Manchester and Liverpool. Pop in Sheffield while you are at it. The combined population of these great cities roughly equates to the increase in the population of England and Wales that has taken place during a mere ten years.

Is it any wonder that vast tracts of the country, particularly in the already congested South and East, are being built and Tarmac-ed over to accommodate a surge in population growth, most of it driven by immigration?

Should we be surprised by the dire shortage of houses when, according to the excellent MigrationWatch whose forensic analysis is unparalleled, at least half the demand for new homes is accounted for by immigration?

Nor need we look very far to explain the pressure on schools, hospitals and GP surgeries which millions of us have experienced first-hand in most parts of the country. The decade that saw a population increase of 6.6 per cent was also a decade of austerity and government cutbacks.

Some people may say that I am referring to the pre-Brexit past. One of the main purposes of leaving the European Union was to get back control of our borders so that immigration could be regulated and controlled.

Yes, we have indeed 'taken back control'. The Government is in charge of our borders. But although there are no authoritative up-to-date figures, partly due to the pandemic, it is possible, if not likely, that immigration is running at near record levels.

In the year ending June 2021, net migration — i.e. the difference between those leaving the country and those arriving — was 239,000. That number was probably slightly limited by the effects of Covid. Nevertheless, it was still higher than the net migration figure for 2012 or 2013.

We won't know the Office for National Statistics net migration figure for the 12 months ending June 2022 until later in the year, but it is a fair bet that it will be considerably higher than that of a year ago.

According to separate Home Office statistics, visas were handed out in profusion in 2021 — 432,279 for students, 280,776 for family visas and 239,987 for work. Overall, EU migration has declined sharply as a proportion of the whole since Brexit, while non-EU migration has risen very significantly.

What strikes me as odd is that there has been almost no public discussion about apparently soaring levels of legal immigration, given that before the EU referendum in 2016 there was so much agonising over the issue.

By contrast, the Government is very exercised about the number of asylum seekers crossing the Channel in small boats, and plans to send some of them to Rwanda if it is able to face down the interfering European Court of Human Rights, and persuade our own judges that it is not inhumane to transport them.

The Government is, of course, right to be concerned by cross-Channel migration. The numbers are by no means insignificant: 28,526 people are known to have crossed in small boats last year, and there could be as many as 50,000 this year.

Moreover, this is an evil trade orchestrated by ruthless people-smugglers who, by putting asylum seekers in unseaworthy boats, expose them to the risk of capsizing and drowning.

So it is a big issue. The wonder, though, is that so much time and energy are spent debating about asylum seekers while few people have noticed the growing numbers of legal migrants that are arriving in this country.

These are certain to put further pressure on our already crumbling public services, as well as housing, where the Government seems unlikely to meet its manifesto target of building an additional 300,000 homes a year by the mid-2020s.

I naturally don't dispute that there are labour shortages which foreign, increasingly non-EU, workers are happy to fill. Despite some Remainer-inspired propaganda, under the Government's new points-based system it is easy for employers to recruit workers abroad for jobs that are relatively poorly paid.

Meanwhile, our universities, some of which are extremely mediocre, are doing their utmost to attract as many foreign students as possible, more than a quarter of whom are Chinese.

The business model of these reputed centres of learning relies on their attracting many thousands of students from abroad. Believe it or not, about 30 per cent of students at one university, namely Liverpool, are Chinese.

But what may be good for businesses happy to recruit industrious foreign workers, or for universities dependent on students from abroad, is not necessarily in the best interests of our already overcrowded island.

In many parts of England, people are fed up with overstretched, underfunded public services, and they don't want to see further swathes of their neighbourhoods concreted over.

In particular, the Government has seemingly given up on people who, while not officially categorised as being unemployed despite often receiving welfare payments, could be encouraged back into the labour market through a judicious combination of carrot and stick. There are reckoned to be several million of them.

But it is much easier for employers to dip into the limitless pool of ambitious and industrious workers who will cheerfully cross the world for a decent, though not necessarily very well-paid, job than it is to attract the long-term underemployed.

Four days after the June 2016 referendum, a prominent politician doubted in his newspaper column whether 'those who voted Leave were mainly driven by anxieties about immigration'. It was, of course, Boris Johnson.

If he was attempting to play down the importance to many Leave voters of regaining control of our own borders, I fear that he was much mistaken, possibly fatally so.

Would it be too cynical to suggest that the Government welcomes the kind of displacement that is taking place? People are encouraged to believe that it is grappling with the problem of the Channel crossings while it is, in fact, ignoring the more alarming wider picture.

The Government may be able to get away with it for a while, but sooner or later what is really happening will begin to sink in. If net migration exceeds pre-Brexit levels over the next few years, as it seems on course to do, there may be hell to pay with voters.

Many of them will reasonably ask: what was the point of taking back control if we end up with something worse than we had before?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10967425/STEPHEN-GLOVER-Theres-huge-new-migrant-issue-unfolding-isnt-debate-it.html

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Just now, Macnamara said:

 

that is not factually correct

STEPHEN GLOVER: There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

By Stephen Glover for the Daily Mail

Published: 01:13 BST, 30 June 2022 | Updated: 02:02 BST, 30 June 2022

Some extraordinary figures about population growth were published on Tuesday by the Office for National Statistics, though they attracted very little comment from the BBC or much of the mainstream media.

Between 2011 and 2021, the population of England and Wales grew by a staggering 3.5 million, or about 6.6 per cent. Since during this period net migration was usually running at over 200,000 a year, and occasionally at more than 300,000, the main cause of the rapid expansion isn't hard to fathom.

Most of the population growth took place in the South-East, parts of London (up 22.1 per cent in Tower Hamlets, though there was a 9.6 per cent decline in Kensington and Chelsea) and Eastern England, where it rose by a whopping 8.3 per cent.

Imagine a city the size of Nottingham. Then one as big as Bristol. Add Birmingham. Then Manchester and Liverpool. Pop in Sheffield while you are at it. The combined population of these great cities roughly equates to the increase in the population of England and Wales that has taken place during a mere ten years.

Is it any wonder that vast tracts of the country, particularly in the already congested South and East, are being built and Tarmac-ed over to accommodate a surge in population growth, most of it driven by immigration?

Should we be surprised by the dire shortage of houses when, according to the excellent MigrationWatch whose forensic analysis is unparalleled, at least half the demand for new homes is accounted for by immigration?

Nor need we look very far to explain the pressure on schools, hospitals and GP surgeries which millions of us have experienced first-hand in most parts of the country. The decade that saw a population increase of 6.6 per cent was also a decade of austerity and government cutbacks.

Some people may say that I am referring to the pre-Brexit past. One of the main purposes of leaving the European Union was to get back control of our borders so that immigration could be regulated and controlled.

Yes, we have indeed 'taken back control'. The Government is in charge of our borders. But although there are no authoritative up-to-date figures, partly due to the pandemic, it is possible, if not likely, that immigration is running at near record levels.

In the year ending June 2021, net migration — i.e. the difference between those leaving the country and those arriving — was 239,000. That number was probably slightly limited by the effects of Covid. Nevertheless, it was still higher than the net migration figure for 2012 or 2013.

We won't know the Office for National Statistics net migration figure for the 12 months ending June 2022 until later in the year, but it is a fair bet that it will be considerably higher than that of a year ago.

According to separate Home Office statistics, visas were handed out in profusion in 2021 — 432,279 for students, 280,776 for family visas and 239,987 for work. Overall, EU migration has declined sharply as a proportion of the whole since Brexit, while non-EU migration has risen very significantly.

What strikes me as odd is that there has been almost no public discussion about apparently soaring levels of legal immigration, given that before the EU referendum in 2016 there was so much agonising over the issue.

By contrast, the Government is very exercised about the number of asylum seekers crossing the Channel in small boats, and plans to send some of them to Rwanda if it is able to face down the interfering European Court of Human Rights, and persuade our own judges that it is not inhumane to transport them.

The Government is, of course, right to be concerned by cross-Channel migration. The numbers are by no means insignificant: 28,526 people are known to have crossed in small boats last year, and there could be as many as 50,000 this year.

Moreover, this is an evil trade orchestrated by ruthless people-smugglers who, by putting asylum seekers in unseaworthy boats, expose them to the risk of capsizing and drowning.

So it is a big issue. The wonder, though, is that so much time and energy are spent debating about asylum seekers while few people have noticed the growing numbers of legal migrants that are arriving in this country.

These are certain to put further pressure on our already crumbling public services, as well as housing, where the Government seems unlikely to meet its manifesto target of building an additional 300,000 homes a year by the mid-2020s.

I naturally don't dispute that there are labour shortages which foreign, increasingly non-EU, workers are happy to fill. Despite some Remainer-inspired propaganda, under the Government's new points-based system it is easy for employers to recruit workers abroad for jobs that are relatively poorly paid.

Meanwhile, our universities, some of which are extremely mediocre, are doing their utmost to attract as many foreign students as possible, more than a quarter of whom are Chinese.

The business model of these reputed centres of learning relies on their attracting many thousands of students from abroad. Believe it or not, about 30 per cent of students at one university, namely Liverpool, are Chinese.

But what may be good for businesses happy to recruit industrious foreign workers, or for universities dependent on students from abroad, is not necessarily in the best interests of our already overcrowded island.

In many parts of England, people are fed up with overstretched, underfunded public services, and they don't want to see further swathes of their neighbourhoods concreted over.

In particular, the Government has seemingly given up on people who, while not officially categorised as being unemployed despite often receiving welfare payments, could be encouraged back into the labour market through a judicious combination of carrot and stick. There are reckoned to be several million of them.

But it is much easier for employers to dip into the limitless pool of ambitious and industrious workers who will cheerfully cross the world for a decent, though not necessarily very well-paid, job than it is to attract the long-term underemployed.

Four days after the June 2016 referendum, a prominent politician doubted in his newspaper column whether 'those who voted Leave were mainly driven by anxieties about immigration'. It was, of course, Boris Johnson.

If he was attempting to play down the importance to many Leave voters of regaining control of our own borders, I fear that he was much mistaken, possibly fatally so.

Would it be too cynical to suggest that the Government welcomes the kind of displacement that is taking place? People are encouraged to believe that it is grappling with the problem of the Channel crossings while it is, in fact, ignoring the more alarming wider picture.

The Government may be able to get away with it for a while, but sooner or later what is really happening will begin to sink in. If net migration exceeds pre-Brexit levels over the next few years, as it seems on course to do, there may be hell to pay with voters.

Many of them will reasonably ask: what was the point of taking back control if we end up with something worse than we had before?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10967425/STEPHEN-GLOVER-Theres-huge-new-migrant-issue-unfolding-isnt-debate-it.html

I have just these words to counter that: it's from the Daily Mail!  

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Just now, Nefaria said:

I have just these words to counter that: it's from the Daily Mail!  

 

no the figures are from the ONS

 

Now consider that the government ONS figures will not be complete because there will be many people in the country that they don't know about so we can consider the ONS figures to be an understatement of what the true figures are

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Just now, Macnamara said:

 

no the figures are from the ONS

 

Now consider that the government ONS figures will not be complete because there will be many people in the country that they don't know about so we can consider the ONS figures to be an understatement of what the true figures are

Government figures that people on here were so quick to dismiss during covid?!?  People suddenly put trust in the MSM/ONS when it suits their world view? 😜

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Now in the last 15 years where we have seen the british population grow by about a million per year due to MASS immigration we have also seen the country change in many ways

 

There are more muggings, more terror attacks, more rapes, more stabbings, more shootings and a stagnation of wages as more workers chase the existing jobs which are going to rapidly dissappear with increased automation

 

we have seen waiting times for hospital operations grow and class sizes grow. We have seen literacy levels drop and we are seeing massive new prisons being built.

 

On top of this we have seen massive divisions opening up in society as political fracture lines grow along lines of race and religion and gender

 

These are just some of the more obvious issues caused by MASS immigration but there are more subtle issues for example a person carries with them their cultural baggage. They carry with them the knowledge of their area, their family, their religion, their culture and so on and the point of flooding people with different cultural and religious backgrounds into the same geographic locale is that those people will struggle more to identify with each other. This then creates a society where people are more 'out for themselves' and their own narrow interests which of course suits the psychopathic oligarchs

 

Also it means that the people struggle to coalesce around a shared identity which means that the previous unifying identity of britishness becomes watered down and instead you have a fractured society that is then more willing to allow itself or actively embrace becoming part of a new more globalised citizenship such as the EU or Un which is of course exactly what the conspirators want to achieve: world government controlled by THEM

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3 minutes ago, Nefaria said:

Government figures that people on here were so quick to dismiss during covid?!?  People suddenly put trust in the MSM/ONS when it suits their world view? 😜

 

if you are honestly trying to tell me that the population has not grown and that demographics are not being DELIBERATELY altered as part of a programme of social engineering then i don't hold much hope for you on the path of truth

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11 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 

if you are honestly trying to tell me that the population has not grown and that demographics are not being DELIBERATELY altered as part of a programme of social engineering then i don't hold much hope for you on the path of truth

No, I really don't believe that, I think it's in your head, you are the one (and not the only one) that has been manipulated by consecutive conservative governments, right leaning media, anti foreigner anti europe hysteria and your own deep rooted fears of people that are different.

 

I enjoy meeting people of different cultures, beliefs and ideas, i learn a lot from them, and some of them are the nicest people i have ever met.

Edited by Nefaria
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16 minutes ago, Nefaria said:

No, I really don't believe that, I think it's in your head, you are the one (and not the only one) that has been manipulated by consecutive conservative governments, right leaning media, anti foreigner anti europe hysteria and your own deep rooted fears of people that are different.

 

I enjoy meeting people of different cultures, beliefs and ideas, i learn a lot from them, and some of them are the nicest people i have ever met.

There's got to be recognition, I think, that enjoying different cultures is one thing but letting them demolish our own by swamping us is beyond what's acceptable. And it is happening. I used to work in Blackburn which is one area that has a massively high concentration of other cultures. There are other towns and cities too that you wouldn't recognise as being British.

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7 minutes ago, Tinfoil Hat said:

There's got to be recognition, I think, that enjoying different cultures is one thing but letting them demolish our own by swamping us is beyond what's acceptable. And it is happening. I used to work in Blackburn which is one area that has a massively high concentration of other cultures. There are other towns and cities too that you wouldn't recognise as being British.

But what exactly is being "British"?  Isn't Britain itself an amalgamation of different cultures and made up of four different countries each with their own identities? I personally don't feel any connection to it.  I feel our little island is rather backward, we still have outdated institutions like the monarchy.  There is a concerted effort to keep everything the same (like the MSM's recent shovelling of the jubilee in our faces) rather than embrace change - that is my view.  I suspect the actual truth is somewhere in between our views! 

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Be a shop manager in Blackburn for a while and see what it's like to have Asian men come and treat you with contempt and even refuse to speak to you because you are a woman. That'll give you a good idea of the kind of thing I mean. It's the norm there now, and in my humble opinion, it damned well shouldn't be. Particularly when they move in and complain ceaselessly about our culture - we've got their flag up (along with everyone else's) at a pub which is offensive because they don't drink; we're offending them by displaying a nativity scene because it's nothing to do with their religion. 

 

I know not all immigrants behave thus, but way too many of them do it whilst taking over areas in high concentration. 

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16 minutes ago, Tinfoil Hat said:

Be a shop manager in Blackburn for a while and see what it's like to have Asian men come and treat you with contempt and even refuse to speak to you because you are a woman

Again I think that's because they are being held back by outdated traditional views, much the same as a lot of "British" people are.  I believe the way forward is to move away from old fashioned ways of thinking and be more open-minded, everyone needs to do it though.

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6 hours ago, Nefaria said:

You do realise just as many people leave the UK as well as come here?  Migration isn't just a one way street.  It is hardly ever mentioned by the likes of the MSM, I wonder why that is.... 🤔. Even on this very forum it's hardly ever mentioned!

 

The figures that get quoted refer to 'net migration'. While it is true that many people do leave the UK every year, there are still far more people that arrive and stay, hence why net migration continues to increase.

 

What the MSM don't tell you is who is leaving and who is arriving... as well as who is arriving illegally...

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23 hours ago, Celticdevil said:

Well brexit hasn’t really worked out well 🤷‍♂️

 

All by design though, TPTB have done everything in their power to make the effects of that "Leave" vote seemingly backfire.

 

(for the record, it's my view that the actual "leave" percentage was a lot bigger than was reported in the election results, so big they couldn't pull it back to a "Stay" figure but settled on 51-49 to keep people arguing and further divide and rule. Remember Farage's face when he was told he'd "won?" Absolute shock, he'd been told from the off he was controlled opposition and was destined to lose that vote, the referendum was a sham to appease the public and the "result" cost David Cameron his job. That  referendum result just wasn't supposed to happen and they had to revert to a Plan B.)

 

Rather than become more independent the UK has become less independent since 2016 and ever more reliant on the globalist bloc... one example being the farming industry  - we should be investing in farmers and their farms to encourage self sufficiency and a profitable farming industry - instead  the government are paying framers to stop growing and "rewild" their land thereby reducing our self sufficiency and financial independence as a nation while at the same time aligning with the crackpot Agenda 21 and Agenda 30 criteria.

 

Unfortunately the general public aren't aware of this as it isn't being reported in the press. (again, by design)

 

Edited by HAARPING_On
paragraphed for clarity
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