Reason why "we" don't like change, and the argument for change

[Macnamara]

1 hour ago, Campion said:

 

@Macnamara  as a meditator myself I think you're being a little unfair on the eastern religions.

 

what we have in the modern west is millions of people who do not want to take responsibility for the world

 

they don't want to face upto what the problems are and then take the necessary steps to resolve them

 

instead they twist this way and that trying to wriggle away from their own nagging unconscious that is telling them in the only way that it can that something is not right in the world

 

so they latch onto whatever fad they can to distract themself from doing the one thing they should be doing which is getting their house in order

[Mr H]

3 hours ago, Campion said:

"Reason why "we" don't like change, and the argument for change" 

      

To change or not to change, that's the question. It reminds me of a Carl Rogers quote: 'The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I can change.' So my meditation has a quality of achieving growth by not changing anything. The caricature of the meditator sitting cross-legged contemplating their navel (which I've done and is a great practice btw) and achieving inner peace while the world is on fire, is missing the point. Because the desire for political action, saving the country, defending ourselves against threats is as much a part of the here and now which I'm contemplating as anything else. And any idea that I shouldn't be thinking those things to be in the here & now,  is trying to take myself out of the actual here and now, out of reality, into an imaginary one.

Just as a side note on meditations. What most common people regard as meditation I do not regard as meditation in the purest sense. Although these practices are very enjoyable and I have done them myself. They are mainly done on behalf of the one who believes in the relative. 

 

By that I mean it's done by someone who still at some level believes in the relative and the finite, and wishes to undertake an activity to change themselves in some way, usually their state.

 

In what I call meditation there is no activity. There is no desire to be other than what is. You are already that. You just have to know it.

 

Edit. For ease of use and understandability I may refer to these activities as meditation from time to time depending on context.

 

There is also a place for these activities from the absolutist perspective (for practical purposes) but I am generally speaking above.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Mr H

[Mr H]

3 hours ago, Macnamara said:

 

what we have in the modern west is millions of people who do not want to take responsibility for the world

 

they don't want to face upto what the problems are and then take the necessary steps to resolve them

 

instead they twist this way and that trying to wriggle away from their own nagging unconscious that is telling them in the only way that it can that something is not right in the world

 

so they latch onto whatever fad they can to distract themself from doing the one thing they should be doing which is getting their house in order

This has nothing to do with the topic. You have gone from a to b then zoom all the way to z........

[Mr H]

3 hours ago, Macnamara said:

 

what we have in the modern west is millions of people who do not want to take responsibility for the world

 

they don't want to face upto what the problems are and then take the necessary steps to resolve them

 

instead they twist this way and that trying to wriggle away from their own nagging unconscious that is telling them in the only way that it can that something is not right in the world

 

so they latch onto whatever fad they can to distract themself from doing the one thing they should be doing which is getting their house in order

From what I can gather your concern is something to do with "people" identifying as consciousness not taking "right action" in this illusiory world.

 

I guess we could define right action as loving or intelligent action.

 

From my experience . The cause of all " wrong" action comes from the belief that I consciousness am a finite body mind.

 

You, consciousness are not the finite body mind. You use a finite body mind to experience this world. You, are, consciousness.

 

This understanding from my experience, allows consciousness to act more lovingly and more intelligible via the finite body mind in the illusiory world, not the contrary which is what I understand you suggest. It is the belief I am the finite body mind that further contracts consciousness to operate at the level of conditioning which is why we have all this nonsense 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Mr H

[Macnamara]

5 hours ago, Mr H said:

From what I can gather your concern is something to do with "people" identifying as consciousness not taking "right action" in this illusiory world.

 

no my concern is people talking about new age concepts who do that as a kind of distraction therapy to distance themself from what they actually need to do

 

its like someone driving along in a car and the tyre punctures and goes flat. Now what they need to do is pull over and change the tyre but maybe that feels too much like hard work or maybe they don't believe that doing it is actually possible. So instead they repack all the contents and passengers of the car over to the side with the two good tyres to try and counterbalance the car off the flat. Then they carry on driving but of course before long they crash

 

That is my perception of what a lot of people in the west are doing with new age engagement with eastern spirituality

 

No one it seems actually wants to really fix anything. To me it looks like people are just looking for new ways to help themselves limp along but that's not going to work because there are powerful people who are working together to achieve their vision of the world and they are driving that vision forward with money, effort and concentrated will and they are recruiting many people whether consciously or unconsciously into going along with their agenda and people navel gazing are not going to stop that process because all they are doing is neutralising themself out of that process instead of creating a counter vision for the world

 

imo that is the ENTIRE point of the new age religion psyop: to neutralise people into NON ACTION

[Macnamara]

5 hours ago, Mr H said:

This has nothing to do with the topic. You have gone from a to b then zoom all the way to z........

 

it has everything to do with the topic. You are talking about people being afraid of change and i'm saying that change can be bad so yes people should be cautious about change

 

have you never heard the old adage: 'look before you leap?'

 

we are at a critical point in the conspiracy where the conspirators are now OPENLY talking about the CHANGE that they want to bring and they are branding it as 'the great reset' so this is a time of great peril, not a time to leap without looking

[Macnamara]

10 hours ago, Campion said:

This is it right here. The reason why we get so confused and mystified about religion. Conflating the absolute and the relative, hence the Two_Truths_Doctrine    

 

@Macnamara  as a meditator myself I think you're being a little unfair on the eastern religions.

 

Its like we are the sands in a giant glass conspiracy egg timer and those sands have been running down now for centuries but we have been born right at that time where we are the last sands falling down through the chute and looking down i can see that in the chasm below is a technocratic hellscape stretching off into the foreseeable future and i'm trying to say to the other grains of sand 'we don't want to be going down there' and all the other grains of sand are doing is talking about ANYTHING except what is down that chute

 

Now if you were in an immediate EMERGENCY....lets say you've gone swimming in a creek and you see a crocodile coming towards you, are you going to start pondering on the two truths doctrine or are you going to start swimming like a lunatic for the shore?

[spideysensei]

9 hours ago, Macnamara said:

so they latch onto whatever fad they can to distract themself from doing the one thing they should be doing which is getting their house in order

 

But that fad could be anything. I dunno, Zumba or something. The sort of new agers you're talking about, you are right, bang on the money, but i would argue they're ironically not looking at their practice very holistically, in the context of their life and wider world. You have to be able to maintain practice and be functional in the world. Be more functional. Navel gazing meditators are 10 a penny, and i would argue most of them don't know what they're doing, or have any coherent idea of how to put their observations and practice together.

 

 

 

[Macnamara]

8 minutes ago, spideysensei said:

 

But that fad could be anything. I dunno, Zumba or something. The sort of new agers you're talking about, you are right, bang on the money, but i would argue they're ironically not looking at their practice very holistically, in the context of their life and wider world. You have to be able to maintain practice and be functional in the world. Be more functional. Navel gazing meditators are 10 a penny, and i would argue most of them don't know what they're doing, or have any coherent idea of how to put their observations and practice together.

 

 

its the old argument of in order to be of service to the world you have to sort yourself out first. Yes i get that but some people are conflating feeling good with spiritual growth and i don't think that is the case

 

take this forum for example. Are we in the truth game here or are we in the feeling good game?

 

because if we want to feel good then we probably shouldn't discuss the truth. The truth is pretty depressing frankly and its gonna bum us out. So why not just accept we are heading to hell on a hand basket and party like there's no tomorrow? If that's what we want?

 

But that's not what i want. I want the truth and the truth is not necessarily what i want to hear or what is going to bring me peace. In fact the truth will often turn your world upside down

 

But whereas self denial might stave off some bad feeling for a while it will not prevent the conspiracy from coming to fruition. Only engaging with harsh truth is going to do that. Nothing else is going to cut it

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Macnamara

[Mr H]

1 hour ago, Macnamara said:

 

no my concern is people talking about new age concepts who do that as a kind of distraction therapy to distance themself from what they actually need to do

 

 

This is not what we are doing here.

[Mr H]

1 hour ago, Macnamara said:

 

it has everything to do with the topic. You are talking about people being afraid of change and i'm saying that change can be bad so yes people should be cautious about change

 

have you never heard the old adage: 'look before you leap?'

 

we are at a critical point in the conspiracy where the conspirators are now OPENLY talking about the CHANGE that they want to bring and they are branding it as 'the great reset' so this is a time of great peril, not a time to leap without looking

Right, ok. I think I understand what you are saying. 

 

You have taken my words "to embrace change" and applied them to this particular situation we are in with covid etc etc.....

 

So to address that. (and excuse my clumsy words to address this we're back in the relative)

 

There is acceptance and there is resistance. If you resist or deny "reality", you are creating a further illusion within an illusion. If you accept it wholly, then you are more empowered to take action - because you are aware of the "dangers". If you resist or deny, then you will not be aware of the dangers and will be less likely to take right action when.

 

So when I say embrace change, I did not mean in the context of covid etc and that you should love it. In this context, it would mean that you accept it totally. And then from that space take appropriate action (loving or intelligent).

 

EDIT as previously mentioned if we keep switching between relative and absolute, then congruency is lost and then words start to appear contradictory......so if we can I would prefer to keep the convo in the absolute

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Mr H

[Mr H]

And I know you are very passionate about certain topics MAC especially about the conspiracy and I really admire and respect that in you. So to provide clarification I am not suggesting to anyone reading this to NOT take action against the global conspirators. I hope that puts that to bed.

[spideysensei]

1 hour ago, Macnamara said:

 

 

its the old argument of in order to be of service to the world you have to sort yourself out first. Yes i get that but some people are conflating feeling good with spiritual growth and i don't think that is the case

 

take this forum for example. Are we in the truth game here or are we in the feeling good game?

 

because if we want to feel good then we probably shouldn't discuss the truth. The truth is pretty depressing frankly and its gonna bum us out. So why not just accept we are heading to hell on a hand basket and party like there's no tomorrow? If that's what we want?

 

But that's not what i want. I want the truth and the truth is not necessarily what i want to hear or what is going to bring me peace. In fact the truth will often turn your world upside down

 

But whereas self denial might stave off some bad feeling for a while it will not prevent the conspiracy from coming to fruition. Only engaging with harsh truth is going to do that. Nothing else is going to cut it

 

 

Indeed. I am saying we can have the best of both, and indeed we should. Right practice in self remembering can only yield better results over time in the physical plane, whatever that intention is. As they (the conspirators) delve further into unconsciousness, delusion and want that for us as well, so we must strive to become more conscious to combat this. Becoming more conscious is the opposite of self denial. And it also comes with fortified harsh truths and vitamins.

[Macnamara]

1 hour ago, spideysensei said:

 

Indeed. I am saying we can have the best of both, and indeed we should. Right practice in self remembering can only yield better results over time in the physical plane, whatever that intention is. As they (the conspirators) delve further into unconsciousness, delusion and want that for us as well, so we must strive to become more conscious to combat this. Becoming more conscious is the opposite of self denial. And it also comes with fortified harsh truths and vitamins.

 

most people are not using new age stuff as a way to be brutally honest with themselves and to give themselves some hard truths; most people are using it as cotton wool to wrap themselves in

 

here's what i see when i listen to new agers: i hear them talking a lot about a big shift occuring and about how people must prepare for this by becoming more conscious and so on

 

But they don't talk about how all the things converging now are being orchestrated that way by a conspiracy

 

now what that does is it makes the process a kind of nebulous force of nature like an organic storm that has blown up which they can't do anything about except lie there and hope it doesn't drown them or wash them away

 

It makes them passive instead of being people who know and see and do. They speak as if they just need to go with the flow of all this instead of pro-actively taking care of what needs to be taken care of

 

But we have been brought to this situation by psychopaths who know what they are doing and we CAN do things about that

Edited June 19, 2022 by Macnamara

[Macnamara]

2 hours ago, Mr H said:

Right, ok. I think I understand what you are saying. 

 

You have taken my words "to embrace change" and applied them to this particular situation we are in with covid etc etc.....

 

not just covid but this shift going on right now of which covid is just being used as a catalyst

 

now what 'change' are you embracing that is going to oppose the elites agenda?

 

what ACTION has this meditation given you the insight and the impetus to enact with your will?

Edited June 19, 2022 by Macnamara

[Mr H]

2 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 

not just covid no but this shift going on right now of which covid is just being used as a catalyst

 

now what 'change' are you embracing that is going to oppose the elites agenda?

In the context which you provide, which is a different context to the original content. I did already answer above.

 

Embracing in this situation would mean accepting the situation as it is, and then taking appropriate loving and intelligible action.

[spideysensei]

12 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 

most people are not using new age stuff as a way to be brutally honest with themselves and to give themselves some hard truths; most people are using it as cotton wool to wrap themselves in

 

here's what i see when i listen to new agers: i hear them talking a lot about a big shift occuring and about how people must prepare for this by becoming more conscious and so on

 

But they don't talk about how all the things converging now are being orchestrated that way by a conspiracy

 

now what that does is it makes the process a kind of nebulous force of nature like an organic storm that has blown up which they can't do anything about except lie there and hope it doesn't drown them or wash them away

 

It makes them passive instead of being people who know and see and do. They speak as if they just need to go with the flow of all this instead of pro-actively taking care of what needs to be taken care of

 

But we have been brought to this situation by psychopaths who know what they are doing and we CAN do things about that

 

I think you're over generalizing a wee bit, plus you could make the escapism argument for almost anything, any activity. For example, are most people using the internet as cotton wool to shield themselves from harsh truths? Does that mean we shouldn't be advocating it's use either?

 

I don't know any new agers really, well i have done in the past (who i guess you could call new age). I don't think they're my kind of people, even if we agree on some aspects of so called new age philosophy (which is a rubbish over generalized term in itself; as many traditions/practices go back thousands of years). i guess new age is the modern mish mash of all of that? I dunno. Nor do i care tbh. All i'm saying is it would help ourselves and our sphere of influence massively if we strived to become more conscious. This is scientifically and experientially proven beyond a doubt. Nothing in new age philosophy, religion or spirituality is as important.

[Macnamara]

3 minutes ago, spideysensei said:

 

I think you're over generalizing a wee bit, plus you could make the escapism argument for almost anything, any activity. For example, are most people using the internet as cotton wool to shield themselves from harsh truths? Does that mean we shouldn't be advocating it's use either?

 

i do think people are using the internet for escapism

 

even here on this forum which you would think would be the spear point of the awakening full of people ready to be the shock troops of an alternative vision to the elites centralised vision of control but really a lot of people are into conspiratainment and just argue you with you when you try and talk about actually doing things

Edited June 19, 2022 by Macnamara

[Macnamara]

11 minutes ago, Mr H said:

This is not something I have given much thought to.

 

EXACTLY!

 

That's exactly my point

 

People not engaging with the situations at hand but instead looking for other avenues to occupy their minds with

 

Nobody wants to get down to brass tacks on anything

 

i could pick a bunch of topics but that one is just a particularly difficult one because no one doesn't want to be 'loving'. But there is also something that happens to some people who are too 'loving' which is that they get taken advantage of. For example i remember a story in the papers about a couple who invited a homeless guy to come and stay in their house. he was young, they felt sorry for him but he ended up stabbing them to death and robbing them because he had severe mental health problems

 

That's probably why we aren't all out on the streets right now looking for homeless people to invite into our homes. It doesn't mean we aren't loving

Edited June 19, 2022 by Macnamara

[Mr H]

Just now, Macnamara said:

 

EXACTLY!

 

That's exactly my point

 

People not engaging with the situations at hand but instead looking for other avenues to occupy their minds with

 

Nobody wants to get down to brass tacks on anything

 

i could pick a bunch of topics but that one is just a particularly difficult one because no one doesn't want to be 'loving'. But there is also something that happens to some people who are too 'loving' which is that they get taken advantage of. For example i remember a story in the papers about a couple who invited a homeless guy to come and stay in their house. he was young, they felt sorry for him but he ended up stabbing them to death and robbing them

 

Thats probably why we aren't all out on the streets right now looking for homeless people to invite into our homes

2+2=5........... I don't have the bandwidth to keep track of every world issue.........if you do great for you.......but you seem dam adamant to misappropriate almost everything I say here. Making it very difficult for me to continue this conversation with you on any level.

 

Like I said if you have this knowledge and the solution please share in your own thread. I am always open to education. TY.

[Macnamara]

5 minutes ago, Mr H said:

2+2=5........... I don't have the bandwidth to keep track of every world issue.......

 

but you must want to understand the conspiracy right because this is a conspiracy forum and not just any conspiracy forum but kind of a leading one

 

and these things i'm talking about are major aspects of the conspiracy

 

anyway, i see this is going nowhere good, so i'll bow out there

[spideysensei]

26 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

a lot of people are into conspiratainment

 

I blame you for making consistently entertaining/informative posts.

 

In all seriousness, you can't force folks to see it that way, otherwise you become what you hate i think. You lead well enough by example and maybe you're stressed that most others don't share the same sense of urgency.

[Macnamara]

1 minute ago, spideysensei said:

In all seriousness, you can't force folks to see it that way, otherwise you become what you hate i think. You lead well enough by example and maybe you're stressed that most others don't share the same sense of urgency.

 

perhaps i'm just seeing into the 'truth movement' at a deeper level and realising that no one is on the same page

 

 

[Morpheus]

On 6/17/2022 at 4:58 PM, Mr H said:

My suggestion.

 

First assumption being that what we truly are is consciousness. 

 

Consciousness in it's innate state is non dual. and If we had to describe it in words, the best we have is empty space, nothingness, silence. This does not accurately describe consciousness but it is the best we have. It is still silent and peaceful. This is our nature and can be experienced via what some people call meditation. In this space, there is no movement, no change, just eternity/ infinity. This is where innately we are most "happy" or what I would call at peace.

 

If consciousness were constantly in this state, there would be no experience, and no experiencing of one self. It would be lonely and boring. This is why we have experience and the creation of finite body minds. This is why we have duality. At the same time this is why inherently we do not like change in this expression of consciousness, because it is an echo, a disturbance from our essential nature. But there is no other alternative if we wish to explore ourselves and all our possibilities........

 

So I guess if we wish to undertake the role of cosmic explorer we must embrace change. We are infinite and eternal, so what is the worst that could happen?

What changes are you referring to?

 

Micro or macro level changes?

 

If we are talking micro level then surely these are just people's every day habits which manifest as routine because without some degree of routine our lives lack meaning. Without routine our lives are essentially chaotic and lack meaning. Changes in our lives are subtle like; quitting smoking, eating less shite, exercising more, being more mindful of others etc. All very worthy things to do and are subtle adjustments of habit. 

 

In the macro we are talking about changing how we run our lives globally, maybe that would pertain to things like how we produce food, dispose of waste, general environmental impact of our daily lives, monetary, law, religion, militarily, education etc - which is a monumental task in itself and again requires structure and meaning in change - otherwise we again have chaos and lack of meaning.

 

Of course we need to be careful in this scenario what changes we make for the better or worse because they ultimately have bigger consequences than the mere adjustments to our daily habitual rituals. 

 

If I understand the original post correctly, otherwise you may need to define what you mean by change.

[Morpheus]

Just to add, I also don't think people resist change consciously because o think everyone recognises they need to evolve as it is something we've been constantly doing since birth through to adulthood. Change is a constant in our lives, daily.