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Reason why "we" don't like change, and the argument for change


Mr H
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2 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 

i'm not saying that to be horrible....i'm saying that to focus the mind

 

history tells us that the psychopaths are capable of the most horrific things and they get away with it because people don't pay attention

 

people distract themselves with a million different things and they don't pay attention to what's happening and then act accordingly

Yes well you have not understood at all what I have been saying and have gone off on your own storyline.

 

It is indeed this misunderstanding that we are these bodyminds that leads to consciousness modulating itself into psychopaths. 

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To put your mind at rest. 

 

Bodyminds and death are illusions. That does not mean that they are not real or have no consequences.....and just because I say that in reality a bodymind cannot make a decision (which I illustrated) it does not mean that consciousness cannot make intelligible decisions whilst experiencing as a bodymind

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7 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Yes well you have not understood at all what I have been saying and have gone off on your own storyline.

 

It is indeed this misunderstanding that we are these bodyminds that leads to consciousness modulating itself into psychopaths. 

 

if that were the entirety of the picture then every single person who is living out their life without trying to transcend their physical being would be a psychopath

 

and yet there are many perfectly decent people going about in this physical reality who are not psychopaths

 

I think instead we need to be considering the role of morality

Edited by Macnamara
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and because I understand this it also doesn't mean that the body I am experiencing would react in a fearful way if someone were to put a knife to my throat or in your example if you pushed me off a cliff.........

 

These were all just your assumptions

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1 minute ago, Macnamara said:

 

if that were the entirety of the picture then every single person who is living out their life without trying to transcend their physical being would be a psychopath

 

and yet there are many perfectly decent people going about in this physical reality who are not psychopaths

No not true, again this is you adding on stuff............

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2 minutes ago, Mr H said:

and because I understand this it also doesn't mean that the body I am experiencing would react in a fearful way if someone were to put a knife to my throat or in your example if you pushed me off a cliff.........

 

yes because you don't want to die and leave this reality

 

this is the one we are in for now.....this is the one we have to work with for now

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Just now, Macnamara said:

 

yes because you don't want to die and leave this reality

 

this is the one we are in for now.....this is the one we have to work with for now

No. I am not the body. I experience a body. The body is built to survive so I can experience. The mechanisms of the body are set in stone they cannot be changed. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mr H said:

 This is our nature and can be experienced via what some people call meditation. In this space, there is no movement, no change, just eternity/ infinity. This is where innately we are most "happy" or what I would call at peace.

 

but what if the person is say a pedophile who works for goldman sachs and spends their working days screwing over poor people by selling them mortgages that they won't be able to afford?

 

why should their 'peace' be what is needed?

 

maybe that isn't the answer here

Edited by Macnamara
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1 minute ago, Macnamara said:

 

i'm not sure about that. I think people can be changed through epigenetics

I specifically meant the body's survival mechanisms....

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5 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

but what i the person is say a pedophile who works for goldman sachs and spends their working days screwing over poor people by selling them mortgages that they won't be able to afford?

 

why should their 'peace' be what is needed?

 

maybe that isn't the answer here

 

well that's a pretty severe example! most people are not pedophiles who work for goldman sachs!

 

But what about people who are feeding the beast in all kinds of ways in their life who then seek 'inner peace' through meditation instead of facing upto the truth which is that the pain they are experiencing is the non duality of not living in accordance with what is right?

 

maybe instead of trying to cheat life by trying to create some sort of quiet space in their day they should instead seek to put their house in order and remove the source of their pain?

 

but nobody wants to do that work! Nobody wants to do the shadow work

 

maybe the aim shouldn't be to try and take some sort of fake short cut to 'peace' but instead to take the long hard route by RIGHT ACTION so that the spirit is less restless

Edited by Macnamara
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3 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 

but what i the person is say a pedophile who works for goldman sachs and spends their working days screwing over poor people by selling them mortgages that they won't be able to afford?

 

why should their 'peace' be what is needed?

 

maybe that isn't the answer here

I very much doubt this: what you are calling a person, is at peace in any way shape or form.........most likely why "they" are doing what they are doing

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2 minutes ago, Mr H said:

I very much doubt this: what you are calling a person, is at peace in any way shape or form.........most likely why "they" are doing what they are doing

 

oh i bet you there are all kinds of people in the new age movement....some of them will be deeply unsavoury

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1 minute ago, Macnamara said:

 

well that's a pretty severe example!

 

But what about people who are feeding the beast in all kinds of ways in their life who then seek 'inner peace' through meditation instead of facing upto the truth which is that the pain they are experiencing is the non duality of not living in accordance with what is right

 

maybe instead of trying to cheat life by trying to create some sort of quiet space in their day they should instead seek to put their house in order and remove the source of their pain?

 

but nobody wants to do that work! Nobody wants to do the shadow work

Now we cannot speak in absolute terms and we are returning to the relative. We cannot speak congruently on both levels. And this is way of topic but I will answer......

 

Yes I totally agree with you that people who avoid life's challenge's via meditation etc is not something beneficial, and yes there are a lot of people who do this. And yes I agree that where evil is seen it should be stamped out.

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5 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Now we cannot speak in absolute terms and we are returning to the relative. We cannot speak congruently on both levels. And this is way of topic but I will answer......

 

Yes I totally agree with you that people who avoid life's challenge's via meditation etc is not something beneficial, and yes there are a lot of people who do this. And yes I agree that where evil is seen it should be stamped out.

 

right!

 

but the new age is full of people telling other people to seek inner peace through meditation

 

but how can that fix the world? It doesn't. It just tells people what they WANT to hear: that there's some sort of quick fix to how shitty they feel in their life

 

what they don't want to hear is that they need to align what they know to be right with what they actually do in their life so that their spirit is not in anguish

Edited by Macnamara
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21 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

but how can that fix the world? It doesn't. It just tells people what they WANT to hear: that there's some sort of quick fix to how shitty they feel in their life

 

psychiatry does EXACTLY the same thing

 

when a person says they feel depressed the psychiatrist gives them serotonin reuptake inhibitors which have listed suicidal thoughts as one of the possible adverse reactions because all they do is prevent the free flow of psychic content from the unconscious to the conscious mind and what happens is it then builds up like water behind a dam which can then suddenly break and the person kills themself because they are simply overwhelmed

 

the psychiatrist did not look at the person holistically and ask what ails them? They didn't seek to help the person heal trauma or work through unresolved emotional issues (complexes). They just papered over a crack

 

And that is what new age meditation does. How can a guru heal a person with meditation when they resolve none of that persons complexes or lifes challenges?

 

But there's a lot of money to be made....

Edited by Macnamara
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You're both kinda right. These viewpoints can exist harmoniously with some tweaks, which is why people like Gurdjieff devised training in order to cope with the demands of modern life and work on oneself internally. No need for sitting under a tree all day, it obviously isn't practical, but becoming more self aware is something we can do at any moment, whatever we're doing.

 

There certainly are higher states of consciousness we can access and likely it seems higher realities than this plane. but that shouldn't negate what we're doing here right now. It seems that demands on higher consciousness increase not decrease, you become infinitely more responsible and that includes this plane.

 

I think you could be at peace in a death camp but it's unlikely and very difficult. Doesn't mean your practice won't have helped and certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't smash a guard over the head with a shovel if it meant your best chance of escape.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, spideysensei said:

You're both kinda right. These viewpoints can exist harmoniously with some tweaks, which is why people like Gurdjieff devised training in order to cope with the demands of modern life and work on oneself internally. No need for sitting under a tree all day, it obviously isn't practical, but becoming more self aware is something we can do at any moment, whatever we're doing.

 

There certainly are higher states of consciousness we can access and likely it seems higher realities than this plane. but that shouldn't negate what we're doing here right now. It seems that demands on higher consciousness increase not decrease, you become infinitely more responsible and that includes this plane.

 

I think you could be at peace in a death camp but it's unlikely and very difficult. Doesn't mean your practice won't have helped and certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't smash a guard over the head with a shovel if it meant your best chance of escape.

 

 

What I was trying to convey was why consciousness (you) does not like change from my own experience. But it has been misappropriated to mean something else - some sort of non-action - because I mentioned body minds cannot make decisions or control thoughts, only consciousness can (YOU). And my comments about death being an illusion has been misappropriated to mean that death is not real, or that if you believe this then you should go kill the body to prove it - which wouldn't prove anything.......

 

So yeah, unfortunately I did not communicate very well as we are way way off topic. So I will apologize and re-think the way I describe this things in future so it is more understandable.

Edited by Mr H
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6 hours ago, Mr H said:

What I was trying to convey was why consciousness (you) does not like change from my own experience. But it has been misappropriated to mean something else - some sort of non-action - because I mentioned body minds cannot make decisions or control thoughts, only consciousness can (YOU). And my comments about death being an illusion has been misappropriated to mean that death is not real, or that if you believe this then you should go kill the body to prove it - which wouldn't prove anything.......

 

So yeah, unfortunately I did not communicate very well as we are way way off topic. So I will apologize and re-think the way I describe this things in future so it is more understandable.

 

Fair enough. About your opening premise then, where you were talking about finite body minds - do you consider this the ego or something to that effect? And the need for it to arise in order to experience. What do you mean by experience? Doesn't consciousness experience?

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1 minute ago, spideysensei said:

 

Fair enough. About your opening premise then, where you were talking about finite body minds - do you consider this the ego or something to that effect? And the need for it to arise in order to experience. What do you mean by experience? Doesn't consciousness experience?

I would define the term body mind - as the activity or function of consciousness - with which it gets to explore this particular world modulation. It is made of perceiving, sensing and thoughts (not matter- the common belief).

 

The ego I would define as the illusiory self - that is, consciousness believing that the body mind is a separate autonomous entity.

 

Experience I would define as this *gets a drum* BANG! 

 

Yes consciousness experiences this world via the body mind. 

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The ego is necessary up to a point, otherwise we couldn't play this game. Everything would be just a big splurdge and we couldn't have all these different character stories. We would think we're the same as the birth mother. But once the illusiory character has been established, there is no need for this belief to continue. We can play the game, knowingly as consciousness - which is the only way (I know of) to live a peaceful and fullfilled life. Our culture teaches us the first part, but doesn't teach us about the second part.

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I get the general idea i think. I don't know whether consciousness likes change, or whether changes in physical reality even have an affect on something like conciousness. First we'd have to measure it right? And good luck with that, although i think some of the brain scanning research in meditation is about as close as you'll get to a scientific explanation, or at least, the neural correlates of consciousness.

 

In a relaxed state i've found noises are less disturbing, and in some of the research, experienced meditators showed less of a neural disturbance when a random bell or noise sounded, but not because they were tuning out external stimuli, it did not cause a shock to their consciousness or brain activity, because it was already in the present moment and aware. If you get lost in thought, a random bell is going to cause spikes in brain activity. So is consciousness disturbed by change? Are you sure it's not the other way around?

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On 6/17/2022 at 4:58 PM, Mr H said:

My suggestion.

 

First assumption being that what we truly are is consciousness. 

 

Consciousness in it's innate state is non dual. and If we had to describe it in words, the best we have is empty space, nothingness, silence. This does not accurately describe consciousness but it is the best we have. It is still silent and peaceful. This is our nature and can be experienced via what some people call meditation. In this space, there is no movement, no change, just eternity/ infinity. This is where innately we are most "happy" or what I would call at peace.

 

If consciousness were constantly in this state, there would be no experience, and no experiencing of one self. It would be lonely and boring. This is why we have experience and the creation of finite body minds. This is why we have duality. At the same time this is why inherently we do not like change in this expression of consciousness, because it is an echo, a disturbance from our essential nature. But there is no other alternative if we wish to explore ourselves and all our possibilities........

 

So I guess if we wish to undertake the role of cosmic explorer we must embrace change. We are infinite and eternal, so what is the worst that could happen?

 

I think it all boils down to the human being - like so many others - being creatures of habit.

 

We all have our own routines - our 'rituals' - is that perhaps down to our reptilian brains?

 

Maybe we like it and feel comfortable when everything is set to a regular routine.

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On 6/17/2022 at 6:37 PM, Mr H said:

Now we cannot speak in absolute terms and we are returning to the relative. We cannot speak congruently on both levels.

 

This is it right here. The reason why we get so confused and mystified about religion. Conflating the absolute and the relative, hence the Two_Truths_Doctrine    

 

@Macnamara  as a meditator myself I think you're being a little unfair on the eastern religions. The same issue is present in western religion too: why spend time worshipping a God who unconditionally loves everyone even the most despicable psychopaths and abusers? Because that's the absolute God, not the relative god who makes preferences between right and wrong.

 

Trying to meditate, trying to relax, trying (desiring) not to desire is the Buddhist equivalent of Biblical commandments like to love God, love your neighbour, don't covet your neighbour's wife and possessions etc. As if you can conjure up love and goodness by an act of will. So why are we told to do these impossible, paradoxical things? Because we are trying to reach the absolute through the relative, and we don't yet realise that our whole world view is paradoxical and mostly based on self-interest and survival instincts. 

 

The absolute & relative occupy the same space of course, it's just a matter of whether we're making any distinctions. The absolute has no distinctions, the relative world is made of the distinctions we project onto the absolute. (But please take everything I say about the absolute with a pinch of salt because it can't really be spoken of). 

 

Great thread, by the way. 

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"Reason why "we" don't like change, and the argument for change

      

To change or not to change, that's the question. It reminds me of a Carl Rogers quote: 'The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I can change.' So my meditation has a quality of achieving growth by not changing anything. The caricature of the meditator sitting cross-legged contemplating their navel (which I've done and is a great practice btw) and achieving inner peace while the world is on fire, is missing the point. Because the desire for political action, saving the country, defending ourselves against threats is as much a part of the here and now which I'm contemplating as anything else. And any idea that I shouldn't be thinking those things to be in the here & now,  is trying to take myself out of the actual here and now, out of reality, into an imaginary one.

Edited by Campion
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