Reason why "we" don't like change, and the argument for change

[Mr H]

My suggestion.

 

First assumption being that what we truly are is consciousness. 

 

Consciousness in it's innate state is non dual. and If we had to describe it in words, the best we have is empty space, nothingness, silence. This does not accurately describe consciousness but it is the best we have. It is still silent and peaceful. This is our nature and can be experienced via what some people call meditation. In this space, there is no movement, no change, just eternity/ infinity. This is where innately we are most "happy" or what I would call at peace.

 

If consciousness were constantly in this state, there would be no experience, and no experiencing of one self. It would be lonely and boring. This is why we have experience and the creation of finite body minds. This is why we have duality. At the same time this is why inherently we do not like change in this expression of consciousness, because it is an echo, a disturbance from our essential nature. But there is no other alternative if we wish to explore ourselves and all our possibilities........

 

So I guess if we wish to undertake the role of cosmic explorer we must embrace change. We are infinite and eternal, so what is the worst that could happen?

[Macnamara]

10 minutes ago, Mr H said:

So I guess if we wish to undertake the role of cosmic explorer we must embrace change. We are infinite and eternal, so what is the worst that could happen?

 

death camps

[Mr H]

2 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 

death camps

There is no death. Death is just change or a remodulation or a movement.

 

Death is only for the one who believes they are a finite bodymind. Which is fair enough. It is "your perogative and is what our culture teaches us we are, so we stay small/trapped/in fear/powerless...........

[Macnamara]

13 minutes ago, Mr H said:

There is no death. Death is just change or a remodulation or a movement.

 

Death is only for the one who believes they are a finite bodymind. Which is fair enough. It is "your perogative and is what our culture teaches us we are, so we stay small/trapped/in fear/powerless...........

 

well if you have found a way to skip out of this 3 dimensional reality then i'd like to hear about it!

 

But in the meantime we have to deal with reality and that means establishing what objective truth is. Arguably the eastern spiritual traditions just preach a sort of negation and navel gazing which moves the world no where.

 

One way to view non dualism is when someone is aligned in what they CARE about (and know to be morally right) and then lives their life through right action to live in accordance with that

 

If on the other hand a person is divided internally then that is duality and it will manifest as problems in their life

Edited June 17, 2022 by Macnamara

[Mr H]

1 minute ago, Macnamara said:

 

But in the meantime we have to deal with reality and that means establishing what objective truth is. Arguably the eastern spiritual traditions just preach a sort of negation and navel gazing which moves the world no where.

 

One way to view non dualism is when someone is aligned in what they CARE about (and know to be morally right) and then lives their life through right action to live in accordance with that

 

If a person is divided internally then that is duality

What you are speaking of is not reality. Speaking of separate persons/deaths etc. That is illusion/delusion based on unprovable belief systems.

 

 

[Macnamara]

People talk about liberals and conservatives but really we can see them as two impulses with liberalism as embracing change and conservatism as resisting change

 

But in life we need to do both which is why a car has an acelerator pedal and a brake pedal: you need  to use both at the right times to make the whole thing work

 

Not all change is good change for example being thrown in a death camp is not a good change. That is a kind of change that should be resisted

 

So really we have to look at each thing and judge it on its own merits as to whether we think it is a positive change or a negative one and then embrace or reject accordingly

[Macnamara]

Just now, Mr H said:

What you are speaking of is not reality. Speaking of separate persons/deaths etc. That is illusion/delusion based on unprovable belief systems.

 

It is reality.

 

This experience you are having here is a domain where you are able to have an experience and exercise free will but within the parameters of natural law

 

if you think it is just an illusion then i invite you to put that to the test and walk off a cliff.....no don't really do that....because you would die

[Mr H]

1 minute ago, Macnamara said:

People talk about liberals and conservatives but really we can see them as two impulses with liberalism as embracing change and conservatism as resisting change

 

But in life we need to do both which is why a car has an acelerator pedal and a brake pedal: you need  to use both at the right times to make the whole thing work

 

Not all change is good change for example being thrown in a death camp is not a good change. That is a kind of change that should be resisted

 

So really we have to look at each thing and judge it on its own merits as to whether we think it is a positive change or a negative one and then embrace or reject accordingly

 

I will speak at the level of delusion to answer this. You think you are a person that can make decisions as to whether make a positive or negative change.

 

1) You cannot make a decision as a "person" it is not possible. Just examine the process of a decision carefully in your experience. 1) there is a thought. Should I eat an apple or an orange. 2) there is a second thought. Orange. 3) There is a third thought that weaves the process together, I chose the orange. Of course you didn't, these thoughts just happened! 

 

As a finite bodymind you cannot resist anything. You can attempt to, but in reality the experience has already been accepted by consciousness otherwise it would not exist. And as we already discussed there is no choice in the matter at the level of a finite bodymind, only at the level of consciousness.

[Macnamara]

1 minute ago, Mr H said:

 

I will speak at the level of delusion to answer this. You think you are a person that can make decisions as to whether make a positive or negative change.

 

1) You cannot make a decision as a "person" it is not possible. Just examine the process of a decision carefully in your experience. 1) there is a thought. Should I eat an apple or an orange. 2) there is a second thought. Orange. 3) There is a third thought that weaves the process together, I chose the orange. Of course you didn't, these thoughts just happened! 

 

As a finite bodymind you cannot resist anything. You can attempt to, but in reality the experience has already been accepted by consciousness otherwise it would not exist. And as we already discussed there is no choice in the matter at the level of a finite bodymind, only at the level of consciousness.

 

you sound like you are drifting into solipsism

 

 

[Mr H]

If you think you can make decisions and select thoughts, then just as an experiment, see if you can only think positive happy thoughts for 30 days with no exceptions. Should be easy. Or decide right now to think tomorrow at 7.35pm to think about A red car. See if that event happens! 

[Mr H]

2 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 

you sound like you are drifting into solipsism

 

 

Not at all. Nothing like solipcism

[Mr H]

10 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 

if you think it is just an illusion then i invite you to put that to the test and walk off a cliff.....no don't really do that....because you would die

Why would that prove it's an illusion and why would I wish to do that? 

[Macnamara]

3 minutes ago, Mr H said:

If you think you can make decisions and select thoughts, then just as an experiment, see if you can only think positive happy thoughts for 30 days with no exceptions. Should be easy. Or decide right now to think tomorrow at 7.35pm to think about A red car. See if that event happens! 

 

that's why you have to do the shadow work to find out the unconscious things affecting you to gain a greater mastery over yourself

[Macnamara]

4 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Why would that prove it's an illusion and why would I wish to do that? 

 

because you won't do it because you don't want to die anymore then you would want to be thrown into a deathcamp

 

and that's why you need to be very careful about following new age people up their own arses and instead start getting your head into this game going on right here on earth right now because what happens here does matter and if you didn't think that then you wouldn't mind walking off a cliff

 

it does matter.....so don't bullshit yourself and make flippant remarks about death because history proves that bad things can and do happen when people don't take responsibility for the world

Edited June 17, 2022 by Macnamara

[Mr H]

1 minute ago, Macnamara said:

 

that's why you have to do the shadow work to find out the unconscious things affecting you to gain a greater mastery over yourself

You can go this route and it may lead to a more pleasurable experience and it's entertaining - but it will never lead to real peace..... If you wish to be truly at peace and rooted in reality, then you have to go to the roots and cut off the real delusion, that you are a finite bodymind

[Macnamara]

2 minutes ago, Mr H said:

You can go this route and it may lead to a more pleasurable experience and it's entertaining - but it will never lead to real peace..... If you wish to be truly at peace and rooted in reality, then you have to go to the roots and cut off the real delusion, that you are a finite bodymind

 

see you are talking about eastern spiritualism there of just sitting under the bodhi tree in a state of samadhi

 

but what will happen as you sit there under the bodhi tree trying to convince yourself that you have no desires is that the WHO will come along and inject you with their latest toxic brew because you were too busy navel gazing to take responsibility for your world

Edited June 17, 2022 by Macnamara

[Mr H]

2 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 

because you won't do it because you don't want to die anymore then you would want to be thrown into a deathcamp

 

and that's why you need to be very careful about following new age people up their own arses and instead start getting your head into this game going on right here on earth right now because what happens here does matter and if you didn't think that then you wouldn't mind walking off a cliff

 

it does matter.....so don't bullshit yourself

You're putting words in my mouth and making assumptions. I don't follow or read new age people.

 

I never said nothing matters. Or that the death or a body mind doesn't matter. This is what you are saying

 

 

[Mr H]

1 minute ago, Macnamara said:

 

see you are talking about eastern spiritualism there of just sitting under the bodhi tree in a state of samadhi

 

but what will happen as you sit there under the bodhi tree trying to convince yourself that you have no desires is that the WHO will come along and inject you with their latest toxic brew because you were too busy navel gazing to take responsibility for your world

Nope, none of this is the case. This is what you are saying................

[Macnamara]

Just now, Mr H said:

You're putting words in my mouth and making assumptions. I don't follow or read new age people.

 

i'm pretty sure i saw you quote krishnamurti

 

Just now, Mr H said:

I never said nothing matters. Or that the death or a body mind doesn't matter. This is what you are saying

 

you asked what the worst thing is that could happen if we all embrace change and i said death camps

 

you then made a flippant remark about death being an illusion

 

but you don't really believe that which is why you would kick and scream as they dragged you off to the death camp

[Macnamara]

4 minutes ago, Mr H said:

I don't follow or read new age people.

 

this is new age (theosophy):

 

On 6/15/2022 at 1:31 PM, Mr H said:

Do you want to know what my secret is? I don’t mind what happens.”

― J. Krishnamurti

[Mr H]

1 minute ago, Macnamara said:

 

i'm pretty sure i saw you quote krishnamurti

 

 

you asked what the worst thing is that could happen if we all embrace change and i said death camps

 

you then made a flippant remark about death being an illusion

 

but you don't really believe that which is why you would kick and scream as they dragged you off to the death camp

Oh right. Well yes I have listened to a couple of Krishnamurti's lectures in my life. I didn't know he is a new age person, I am not a follower of his and don't particularly like the person, I have posted on here before about that. He has some nice quotes though.

 

Death is an illusion I don't believe it I know it. It is not a flippant remark.

 

Yes this bodymind would kick and scream. The bodymind is designed to self preserve otherwise you wouldn't have existence for very long!

 

 

[Macnamara]

5 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

but you don't really believe that which is why you would kick and scream as they dragged you off to the death camp

 

i'm not saying that to be horrible....i'm saying that to focus the mind

 

history tells us that the psychopaths are capable of the most horrific things and they get away with it because people don't pay attention

 

people distract themselves with a million different things and they don't pay attention to what's happening and then act accordingly

[Mr H]

And for the record I have quoted tonnes of people on here, from Jesus to Tony blair it does not mean I follow these people!!!!! 

 

 

[Macnamara]

2 minutes ago, Mr H said:

Yes this bodymind would kick and scream. The bodymind is designed to self preserve otherwise you wouldn't have existence for very long!

 

well that 'bodymind' is the vehicle you have for experiencing this reality which is why you don't want them getting their covid jabs in it otherwise your experience here might come to an abrupt end neither do you want your bodymind incarcerated in a death camp

 

so is trying to go into self denial in the eastern spiritual tradition the way to save the world from the psychopaths or do we instead need to be focussing on destroying self deceit and then acting accordingly to change our life so that we are not part of the problem?

 

[Macnamara]

3 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 to change our life so that we are not part of the problem?

 

how many people even in the truth movement are talking about that?

 

there's no point in a person living a life that feeds the beast only to then seek to kind of numb themself through eastern spiritual self denial. Those people are not looking for real enlightenment. Those people are looking for a release and they won't find it anymore than mental health can be gained through serotonin reputake inhibitors

Edited June 17, 2022 by Macnamara