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Saint Augustine, Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Incomplete Woman
December 15, 2013 by Janet Cameron 

 

The Incomplete Woman


So what did the incomplete, or unfinished woman have to do with all this?  We have only to consider how the Bible describes the creation of Eve – whom God fashioned from the rib of Adam.

 

Jostein Gaarder, in “The Middle Ages,” Sophie’s World, says, “Unfortunately, Aquinas also adopted Aristotle’s view of women. You may perhaps recall that Aristotle thought that woman was more or less an incomplete man. He also thought that children only inherit the father’s characteristics, since a woman was passive and receptive while the man was active and creative.”

 

Link - https://decodedpast.com/saint-augustine-saint-thomas-aquinas-and-the-incomplete-woman/

 

 

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14 hours ago, Macnamara said:

The catholic church has been fought over by different factions who sought to have their pope in power

 

I see you have liked Edgewood's post where he says my statements are inaccurate.

 

As you agree with Edgewood that my statement is inaccurate - perhaps you could provide evidence.

 

I have shown evidence that my statement was part of the Catholic Church or rather early Christian view.

 

Since you agree that I am wrong - please provide sources to show my error.

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4 hours ago, tommydrifter said:

I have come to understand that homosexuality is a combination of reptilian genetics, your mind-pattern, and programming. It is not "natural". I am not here to tell people what to do with their lives but the truth is that mind-control is the illuminati's method-of-operation and homosexuality is programmed into people via carrier waves (satellite transmissions) and the mass media (programming icons). If you are homosexual, you need to deprogram, using deprogramming techniques as taught by Dr. Swerdlow. Homosexuality is part of the mind-control agenda. If you learn to think like a mentalist, you will see for yourself how this works. To homosexuals, remember you are a person, not a sexual orientation, and that your sexual orientation is due to your programming, it is not intrinsic to who you are (although you probably have sadism/masochism in your mind-pattern). We all have programming. This is the truth. What is called "homophobia" is a natural reaction to something that is not natural. The hostility toward homosexuals, I disagree with, we are all victims in the mind-control agenda, but the disgust is a natural reaction. On the earth, what it is, is not not what it seems due to mind-control. My love to all: I have programming, you have programming, we all have programming. Moderators, feel free to ban me from this community for these truthful comments. I will take that as confirmation that this is an operation and Icke is a programming icon and I will happily move on with my life. (No offense intended, I do not know the truth about Icke, but I question the authenticity of all public figures -- as should you.)

 

💜

I think you may need to do a little more studying :)

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4 hours ago, pi3141 said:

 

The Quaran also endorses 'the book' and accepts doctrines derived from the book by scriptual interpretation as valid.

 

The Quaran came along to bring the Muslims 'the message' and update the previous tachings and finalize Gods word.


In the Quran Mohammed is called the seal of the prophets. This relates to the book that is sealed in Daniel and unsealed in Revelation.

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Isaiah 29:12

 

Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-

Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:

Quran 96:1-2


The apostle of Allah later said, 'He came while I was asleep, with a cloth of brocade whereon there was writing, and he said, "Read." I replied, "I cannot read it." Then he pressed the cloth   on me till I thought I was dying; he released his hold and said, "Read." I replied, "I cannot read it." And he pressed me again with it, till I thought I was dying. Then   he loosed his hold of me and said, "Read." I replied, "I cannot read it." Once more he pressed me and said, "Read." Then I asked, "What shall I read?" And I said   this because I feared he would press me again. Then he said, "Read in the name of the Lord thy creator; who created man from a drop of blood. Read, thy Lord is   the most bountiful, who taught by means of the pen, taught man what he knew not." Accordingly I read these words, and he had finished his task and departed from me. I awoke from my sleep, and felt as if words had been graven on my heart.'  

http://facweb.furman.edu/~ateipen/almusharaka/IbnIshaq-Excerpt2.htm
 

 

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7 hours ago, pi3141 said:

 

I see you have liked Edgewood's post where he says my statements are inaccurate.

 

As you agree with Edgewood that my statement is inaccurate - perhaps you could provide evidence.

 

I have shown evidence that my statement was part of the Catholic Church or rather early Christian view.

 

Since you agree that I am wrong - please provide sources to show my error.

 

I don't think your portrayal of history is correct no

 

For example for a while some people would kidnap a woman who had title to land and then rape her so that she would have to marry thereby merging the two estates but the church was against that. The church preached marriage between people who consented

 

Also any women who did not marry could become beguines and could become literate and learn languages and skills and receive protections under the law whilst living in beguinages

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2 hours ago, Macnamara said:

I don't think your portrayal of history is correct no

 

I have shown you that it is in the historical record, it is accepted by scholars yet you say it my portrayal of history?

 

Thats odd. Maybe you are referring to another part of my post?

 

If not, then the early Christian view that women were inferior according to the church is strongly attested to in many historical records.

 

Yet you say it is MY portrayal of history when I have shown sources and in fact its pretty common knowledge.

 

Thats confusing Macnamara can you please explain.

 

You do not accept that Saint Augustine argued against the early Christian view that women were made from inferior to men and that women were subservient to men?

 

You do not accept this historically accurate view? You do not accept the historical sources?

 

Again, please provide your sources or evidence to refute what I have shown with sources to be true, otherwise just saying you don't agree with my portrayal is a bit weak unless it is a specific part of my portrayal in which case you should be specific so I know what I am debating against.

 

So, just to confirm, you do not believe the Roman Church held women as inferior or subservient to men? Is that correct?

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GENDER BIAS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH: WHY CAN'T WOMEN BE PRIESTS?
CHERYL Y. HASKINS*

 

I attempt to answer the question by exploring gender bias in the Roman Catholic Church, which adamantly maintains that its refusal to allow women to be ordained priests is a decision based on centuries of tradition. 

 

snip

 

Attempting to define women's relation to religion in terms of Christian theological anthropology, Rosemary Radford Reuther, explores the theological dualism of humanity as created in the image of God.' Ruether maintains that the structure of Christian anthropology is ambiguous, expressing what today might be called a "case of projection."' 3 Her theory, briefly summarized, is that man and woman were both created in God's image, yet man views woman as a lower projection of himself, not as an equal. 14 Though women are equivalent in the image of God, to men they "nevertheless symbolize the lower self, representing this in their physical, sexual nature.... She is an 'inferior mix' and, as such, is by nature non-normative and under subjugation."' 5

 

Male projection of females as an incarnation of lower human nature, though contrary to the Bible's assertion that women are created in the image of God, has limited women's ability to be recognized as equal members of the Church. That the male-dominated Church defines women as a lesser class of human being inevitably impacts their opinions as to whether women can be ordained as priests.


III. WHY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DECLARES WOMEN CANNOT BE PRIESTS


Historically the Church has maintained that priestly ordination cannot be validly conferred on women. 16 Although a few heretical sects in the first centuries entrusted the exercise of priestly ministry to women, this innovation was immediately noted and condemned by the Fathers, who considered it unacceptable.' 

 

B. The Sacred Congregation


The Vatican under Pope Paul V127 issued an official declaration against women's ordination in 1977.28 The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith released the Declaration on the Question of Admission of Women to the Ministerial Priesthood for publication on January 27, 1977.29 The Declaration states that the Church, "in fidelity
to... the Lord, does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination. 

 

snip

 

The Sacred Congregation maintained that God mandated that only men are to be ordained to priestly ministry.

 

snip

 

Pope John Paul refuses to admit that the Church's opinion of an all-male priesthood is chauvinistic. The Pope ignores the fact that, though the scriptures record Jesus choosing all male disciples, he also had many female followers throughout his final three years of ministry. Women were the first to know of Christ's resurrection, and women were also present in the upper room when Christ appeared to the disciples after his death and resurrection. If, as the Pope insists, the priesthood is about service, then women have proven themselves historically to be quite diligent in service to Christianity, and demonstrated that they are quite capable of serving as priests. The Church would make great strides towards eliminating discrimination based upon sex if it would change its position.

 

 

Link - https://digitalcommons.law.umaryland.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1037&context=rrgc

 

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On 5/29/2022 at 2:37 AM, XelNaga said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "homophobes", as that word makes absolutely no sense. No one if afraid of homos.

 

A tiny percentage of people hate them and wish/cause them harm whenever they can.

 

A huge percentage of people has no problem with homos, as long as they behave like normal people.

 

Every sane person do have a problem with obvious lgbt propaganda, which has nothing to do with people rights. It has a much more nefarious agenda behind it, which is rather obvious.

 

Kind regards..

No it is not.

 

Moral people do not discriminate without a just cause the way the homophobes and misogynists do.

 

Pray for a homophobe pill to help cure homophobes and have them put love above sex and gender.

 

Regards

DL

 

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1 minute ago, Gnostic Christian said:

No it is not.

 

Moral people do not discriminate without a just cause the way the homophobes and misogynists do.

 

Pray for a homophobe pill to help cure homophobes and have them put love above sex and gender.

 

Regards

DL

 

If you don't see it for what it really is, than I can't do much about that.

 

Love is above all, love for nature, not love for confusion and perversions. Having no problem with gay folks is fine, but having no problem with lgbt propaganda which is aimed at our children is a pure stupidity. It's even evil in a way.

 

I have to note, you are stil using a term "homophobia", which makes no sense.

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1 minute ago, Gnostic Christian said:

You see poorly.

 

Regards

DL

No justice for regular folks, not on this planet. Which is no surprise when we know who is running the show here.

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On 5/29/2022 at 6:26 AM, Edgewood said:

the gay movement always demanding more moral dominance....

Indeed.

 

Especially those being thrown off of buildings or getting shot for no good reason.

 

Whom are the bastards and who are the moral and good, and you asked me why I did not like the present situation????

 

Regards

DL

 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Gnostic Christian said:

Indeed.

 

Especially those being thrown off of buildings or getting shot for no good reason.

 

Whom are the bastards and who are the moral and good, and you asked me why I did not like the present situation????

 

Regards

DL

 

 

 

How many gays are getting thrown off buildings or shot......compared to the amount of daily homosexual child abuse that takes place?

 

Wake up my poor little SJW wolf in 'Gnostic'  sheep's clothing.

 

Edited by Edgewood
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On 6/2/2022 at 9:58 AM, pi3141 said:

In addition to this, it was Eve who was tempted by the serpent in the garden, the RC church contend if the serpent had tried to tempt Adam, it would not have been successful but because Eve was weaker than Adam she was tempted and then dragged Adam into her mistake in an act of evil.

 

Your presentation was accurate, but loses some of it's accuracy when you remember that Christians sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

 

IOW's, if Eve had done otherwise, God's plan would have fallen off the rails.

 

All Christians, in that sense, thank God that Eve ate, and Adam was bright enough to follow woman's lead.

 

In reality, we are all to do the same.

 

The wise will.

 

Regards

DL

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7 minutes ago, Edgewood said:

 

How many gays are getting thrown off buildings or shot......compared to the amount of daily homosexual child abuse that takes place?

 

Wake up my poor little SJW wolf in 'Gnostic'  sheep's clothing.

 

 

How many needless murders do you not care about?

 

There is no homosexual child abuse that are anywhere near the levels of abuse in the heterosexual areas.  

 

Check the stats, fool.

 

Regards

DL

 

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1 minute ago, Gnostic Christian said:

 

Your presentation was accurate, but loses some of it's accuracy when you remember that Christians sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

 

IOW's, if Eve had done otherwise, God's plan would have fallen off the rails.

 

All Christians, in that sense, thank God that Eve ate, and Adam was bright enough to follow woman's lead.

 

In reality, we are all to do the same.

 

The wise will.

 

Regards

DL

 

 

No. This is not understanding how God works.

 

God makes the best of a bad situation...... everytime...... this means you can never truly fail as long as you trust in God because he can turn even apparent failure into success down the line.

 

I'm sure the believers out there can testify to this in their lives....

 

So the failure of Eve....and the fall of man meant God had to send his only son to redeem mankind......but the human authorities of the time made their own plan to kill him.......so God took that great evil....and made it into something good....... a kind of eternal ritual magic which meant that this world and its dark powers have no right over the soul of anyone, no matter what sins they have committed....as long as they repent and return to God...... after all....if the world will kill an innocent man and the Son of God..... then all its moral value judgements and laws are worthless.... Only God is sovereign..and God is all forgiving.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Gnostic Christian said:

 

How many needless murders do you not care about?

 

There is no homosexual child abuse that are anywhere near the levels of abuse in the heterosexual areas.  

 

Check the stats, fool.

 

Regards

DL

 

 

 

Wow...three logical fallacies in one three line post. A new forum record I think.


Maybe get a second opinion on who's the fool here buddy.....

 

Edited by Edgewood
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22 minutes ago, XelNaga said:

If you don't see it for what it really is, than I can't do much about that.

 

Love is above all, love for nature, not love for confusion and perversions. Having no problem with gay folks is fine, but having no problem with lgbt propaganda which is aimed at our children is a pure stupidity. It's even evil in a way.

 

I have to note, you are stil using a term "homophobia", which makes no sense.

Your misguided dislike of the propaganda is nothing as compared to a teaching that is meant to have men hate their children, should they be born gay or a woman.

 

Give us a sample of this propaganda that has you promoting sex and gender over love.

 

Regards

DL

 

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8 minutes ago, Edgewood said:

 

 

No. This is not understanding how God works.

 

God makes the best of a bad situation...... everytime...... this means you can never truly fail as long as you trust in God because he can turn even apparent failure into success down the line.

 

I'm sure the believers out there can testify to this in their lives....

 

So the failure of Eve....and the fall of man meant God had to send his only son to redeem mankind......but the human authorities of the time made their own plan to kill him.......so God took that great evil....and made it into something good....... a kind of eternal ritual magic which meant that this world and its dark powers have no right over the soul of anyone, no matter what sins they have committed....as long as they repent and return to God...... after all....if the world will kill an innocent man and the Son of God..... then all its moral value judgements and laws are worthless.... Only God is sovereign..and God is all forgiving.

What a uneducated view.

 

     Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

 

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.

That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

 

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

 

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

 

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

 

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

 

Consider.

First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.

In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

 

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

 

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.

Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

 

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

 

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

 

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

 

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

 

This link speak to theistic evolution.

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/pope-would-you-accept-evolution-and-big-bang-180953166/?no-ist

 

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

 

Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

 

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

 

Regards

DL 

 

 

 

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What an uneducated view?

 

It is the view which is evident in our own lives...

 

Also it's a view held by C.S Lewis.


Heard of hiim? Was he uneducated?


Are you a bot? 

 

You don't seen to be real to me........

 

Just some kind of spammer posting butthurt nonsense..... and quoting mainstream sources in order to make him feel iintelligent.

 

No one is buying it.

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Gnostic Christian said:

 

How many needless murders do you not care about?

 

 

 

Regards

DL

 

I'm just wondering what kind of murders and violence goes on against homosexuals and women, purely for the reason that they hate homosexuals and women? I have absolutely no idea at all. Just from my experience I would expect both, particularly against homosexuals to be decreasing % wise - as it's pretty common and accepted compared to yesteryear. 

 

Just trying to think without prejudice here, why someone would hate someone for being a women, or a homosexual. I can't really think of any for the women unless that particular women has done something to you personally. Same with homosexuals - with the addition, that I suspect in the depths of the human psyche is some kind of "natural" distaste for homosexuality as a survival mechanism that filters into the minds of some individuals. I also suspect hate for hatings sake is also another reason for violence.

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15 minutes ago, Mr H said:

I'm just wondering what kind of murders and violence goes on against homosexuals and women, purely for the reason that they hate homosexuals and women? I have absolutely no idea at all. Just from my experience I would expect both, particularly against homosexuals to be decreasing % wise - as it's pretty common and accepted compared to yesteryear. 

 

Just trying to think without prejudice here, why someone would hate someone for being a women, or a homosexual. I can't really think of any for the women unless that particular women has done something to you personally. Same with homosexuals - with the addition, that I suspect in the depths of the human psyche is some kind of "natural" distaste for homosexuality as a survival mechanism that filters into the minds of some individuals. I also suspect hate for hatings sake is also another reason for violence.

 

I for one know that in Morocco homosexuals were only imprisoned when the relationship was clearly an exploitative abuse relationship between a grown man and a child. This is the same in most Muslim countries I would suggest... In fact as someone who knows the Muslim world well there is far more homosexuality than in the west, except it is kept fairly quiet..... and people just keep it private...perhaps as is normal and healthy.

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4 hours ago, XelNaga said:

I have to note, you are stil using a term "homophobia", which makes no sense.

 

Sorry but I don't understand your point.

 

Do you deny Homophobia is a word or a thing or prejudice that doesn't exist?

 

Here from Wiki - 

 

Homophobia

 

Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT).[1][2][3] It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear, and is also related to religious beliefs.[4][5]

 

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

 

And here from the dictionary - 

 

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

 

homophobia
/ˌhɒməˈfəʊbɪə,ˌhəʊməˈfəʊbɪə/
Learn to pronounce
noun
dislike of or prejudice against gay people.

 

 

Your saying the term makes no sense when it is a part of English language and a broadly accepted definition of a prejudice.

 

What part of the term makes no sense to you when it is a perfectly valid term?

 

 

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So I had to have a quick look up about why there is a hatred of women ( i never really knew it was much of a thing these days). Apparently in the west at least it comes from the bible and the Adam and Eve story - females not to be trusted are the weaker sex etc......... found that quite interesting............

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