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Shelob and the Mother of the Matrix


RobSS
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Just now, Macnamara said:

On the surface, Moriah is the sacred mountain that Abraham nearly sacrificed his son Isaac on before the angel of God called out of the sky and stopped him. Moriah is also the location of the original Temple Mount in Jerusalem according to some scholars. The Foundation Stone at the heart of the Dome of the Rock in modern Jerusalem is believed to mark the exact location of Araunah’s threshing floor “in mount Moriah” over which the Temple of Solomon was built (see 1 Chronicles 25). In addition to the significance of the geography, the role that Mt. Moriah (Hebrew Mowriyah, “Chosen by Yahweh”) plays in lessons about the relationship between God and man, Heaven and Earth, and angelology is deeper than most comprehend. Midrashic discussions of the Abraham/Isaac narrative have been argued where the perspective is changed from the Genesis account on Mt. Moriah to Heaven, where God watches and ultimately signals the angel to stop the sacrifice of Isaac. The Pseudepigraphal Book of Jubilees is used in such renderings, as the story from Jubilees offers the account from the angel’s viewpoint, in the language of the first person from heaven. Additional information about the angel that spoke to Abraham is included in the Zohar, Kabballa, Babylonian Talmud, Pseudepigrapha as well as classic texts by some members of Christianity and Islam who ultimately identify him as “Metatron,” the most powerful of all Angels according to these noncanonical works. For illuminatists, The Third Book of Enoch is among the most important of the Mystical Literature as it offers the genesis of Metatron by claiming that Enoch himself is the one who ascends into Heaven to be transformed into Metatron.

An extract from 3 Enoch reads:

“This Enoch, whose flesh was turned to flame, his veins to fire, his eyelashes to flashes of lightning, his eyeballs to flaming torches, and whom God placed on a throne next to the throne of glory, received after this heavenly transformation the name Metatron?” [2]

https://newswithviews.com/Horn/thomas103.htm

 

0fa062b56bfce91bba69533134c2bffc.jpg

 

As Metatron, Enoch becomes the Angel in the Whirlwind and master over other angels of wind and whirlwind (including Ruhiel, Ra’miel, Ra’shiel et al).

 

 

This doesn't prove Tolkien is a Freemasonry, it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, and I've reported you to the mods for blatantly trolling.

 

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7 minutes ago, RobSS said:

 

This doesn't prove Tolkien is a Freemasonry, it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, and I've reported you to the mods for blatantly trolling.

 

you asked me to prove that tolkien was a freemason so i'm showing you some pertinant information

 

one more thing is that one of the original 9 templar knights was called gandalf EDIT his name was Gondomare and in the lord of the rings aragorn is lord of gondomere

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Just now, Macnamara said:

 

you asked me to prove that tolkien was a freemason so i'm showing you some pertinant information

 

one more thing is that one of the original 9 templar knights was called gandalf

 

It doesn't prove Tolkien was a Freemason, all it shows is that he was familiar Brotherhood symbolism, which is no secret. Anyhow, it's now in the hands of the moderators.

 

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1 minute ago, RobSS said:

It doesn't prove Tolkien was a Freemason, all it shows is that he was familiar Brotherhood symbolism, which is no secret.

 

but he was supposedly a catholic who are forbidden to engage with that! so why would he put it in if he was not a crypto mason?

1 minute ago, RobSS said:

Anyhow, it's now in the hands of the moderators.

 

yes and they will be able to see you asking me to prove my point, which i then tried to do

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1 minute ago, Macnamara said:

 

but he was supposedly a catholic who are forbidden to engage with that! so why would he put it in if he was not a crypto mason?

 

yes and they will be able to see you asking me to prove my point, which i then tried to do

 

 

 

You're off topic. Now stop trolling this thread and preventing others from discussing the topic, thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, RobSS said:

Could a moderator please also delete the irrelevant off-topic posts in this thread, thanks.

 

stop trying to hide inconvenient truths whilst trying to silence posters who are simply saying things you don't like

 

anyway, i'll leave it there

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1 minute ago, Macnamara said:

 

stop trying to hide inconvenient truths whilst trying to silence posters who are simply saying things you don't like

 

anyway, i'll leave it there

 

It's no secret that Tolkien was familiar with secret society knowledge that this knowledge is evident in his novels, and you haven't posted any facts to back up your claim that Tolkien was a Freemason, which is off-topic subject anyway.

 

If you want to discuss other aspects of The Lord of the Rings, like Moriah or Tolkien's background, etc., start your own thread but don't troll this thread.

 

Hopefully, this thread can return to topic and a moderator can delete the off-topic posts.

 

Thank you.

 

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Getting back on topic, I've been doing some research on Neith, the ancient Egyptian goddess of creation and weaving, it was believed that everyday she re-spun the world on her loom, and from early dynasty periods, Neith was said to be an "Opener of the Ways", an escort of souls, and protector of the dead. One of Neith's symbols was the mummy cloth.

 

So already we have many attributes associated with spiders, which also cocoon and protect the dead, in a kind of mummy cloth, or wrapping. 

 

P1070098_Louvre_statuette_de_Neith_E3730_rwk.JPG.55d67971ab775113ac1e24efa112bfa1.JPG

 

Statuette of Neith housed in the Louvre

 

 

 

 

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There are also the Norns, in Norse mythology, the three spinning/weaving sisters who work the thread of Wyrd (also known as Fate/Karma).

 

Here we have a correlation between the three Norns, in Wagner's music drama, The Ring of the Nibelung, and Shelob, in Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings.

 

As a sign of impending disaster, the rope of fate that the Norns weave, breaks, and the cosmos of the Pagan gods is left to unknown forces, and so begins the twilight of the gods (Götterdämmerung).

 

In Wagner's "Ring Cycle", the story is told by the Norns, Erda’s daughters, who unfold, each night, visions of the past, present and future. They see what Wotan cannot, or does not want to see, and each day they wind a rope (das Seil) bringing messages from the water that flows round the World Ash Tree.

 

1587167110_TheThreeNorns.gif.813c25ad37d000d9536c32864a90660e.gif
The three Norns spinning and weaving  the web of fate

 

The first Norn relates how, at one time in the distant past, they wove and sang of sacred things at the tall and strong World Ash Tree, whose sacred branches shaded a spring which ‘whispered wisdom’. She relates of a time when Wotan came to the spring to drink to learn knowledge of power. He also broke a branch from the world Ash tree, to craft a spear with which to rule and order the world, but in order to gain such insight and power, he had to sacrifice one of his eyes, for all time. As a consequence, the wound in the trunk of the tree led to the tree withering, and the spring began to run dry.

 

The second Norn then relates how Wotan carved runes and rules on the resulting spear with which he hoped to rule the world.

 

wotanrp4.jpg.2cac6b7d66ee71fbb5aa10c784930bea.jpg

Wotan with one eye

 

Here, we also have a correlation between the one-eyed Wotan in Wagner's music drama, The Ring of the Nibelung, and Tolkien's Sauron, in The Lord of the Rings.

 

MWSnap760.jpg.0a9a851f60744b4a1464e0f29956a1d9.jpg
Sauron's eye

 

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Three Norns weave the rope of fate, in Richard Wagner's Twilight of the Gods (Götterdämmerung)

 

The Norns in this 2008 production, look very spidery, and in a large cobweb they spin away. Unfortunately, there are no English subtitles, but it is night on the Valkyries’ rock as they weave the rope of destiny. They explain how the one-eyed god, Wotan, ordered the world ash tree, from which his spear of rulership was cut, to be cut down, and its wood piled around the base of Valhalla. The burning of the wood will mark the end of the gods, and the old order. Suddenly the rope snaps and their wisdom is ended. The Norns descend into the earth.

 

 

Edited by RobSS
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Shelob was the last child of Ungoliant, who, in the Silmarillion, during the Years of the Trees (before the 1st age) did a sneak attack on Valinor with Melkor/Morgoth (the first Dark Lord) and poisoned the Two Trees with her fangs and sucked the light and life out of them.

Morgoth then went on to steal the Silmarils created by Galadriel's half-uncle Fëanor, kick starting the whole shit show.

 

1600120328_download(59)jj.jpeg.bb136bee4e1b7de86d90601c1be68348.jpeg

 

 

 

The Silmarillion is my absolute favourite, Tolkien's "making of the world" is phenomenal. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, skitzorat said:

timestamped:

 

 

 

I posted the video which has the same information at the start of this thread, so I'm aware of the info where you timestamped the video from, but I'll discuss this later...

 

 

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2 minutes ago, RobSS said:

 

I posted the video which has the same information at the start of this thread, so I'm aware of the info where you timestamped the video from, but I'll discuss this later...

 

 

I didn't watch that video, but there's nothing to discuss... this was your comment 

 

7 hours ago, RobSS said:

In the next instalment, we'll try to find out what possibly happened to Shelob, in the end.

 

And I provided an answer...(albeit I didn't realize that info was already in the thread)

 

That's all the information Tolkien gave for what happened to Shelob in the end... not sure what else your trying to find out.

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25 minutes ago, skitzorat said:

I didn't watch that video, but there's nothing to discuss... this was your comment 

 

 

And I provided an answer...(albeit I didn't realize that info was already in the thread)

 

That's all the information Tolkien gave for what happened to Shelob in the end... not sure what else your trying to find out.

 

I've still got a few things to add about that. I'm not saying that I'm going to contradict the wonderful Tolkien in any way shape or form, but I do have a few little thoughts on the subject.

 

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I've been thinking about the fear some are having that their race is under attack. There's a mention of this in Parsifal, Richard Wagner's music drama about the Holy Grail, and the innocent boy Kundry failed to seduce.


From Act II. Klingsor, the black magician, in a rage with Kundry, the mother of the matrix:

 

KUNDRY:


(laughing shrilly)

 

Ha ha! Are you chaste?

 

KLINGSOR:


(furiously)

 

Why do you ask this, accursed witch?

 

(He sinks into gloomy brooding)

 

Dire distress!
So now the fiend mocks me
that once I strove after holiness?


Dire distress!
The pain of untamed desire,
most horrible, hell-inspired impulse
which I had throttled to deathly silence
does it now laugh aloud and mock
through you, bride of the devil?


Beware!
One man already repents his contempt and scorn,
that proud man, strong in holiness,
who once drove me out.


His race I ruined;
undredeemed shall the guardian
of the holy treasure languish;
and soon I know it
I myself will guard the Grail


Ha ha!
How did you like the hero Amfortas
whom I ensnared to your charms?

 

KUNDRY:

 

O anguish! Anguish!
He too was weak!... Weak are they all!
All fall victim
to my curse!


O endless sleep,
only release,
how can I win you?

 

KLINGSOR:

 

Ha! He who spurns you sets you free:
attempt it with the boy who is drawing near!

 

 

 

Edited by RobSS
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On 1/24/2022 at 8:05 PM, RobSS said:

 

It's no secret that Tolkien was familiar with secret society knowledge that this knowledge is evident in his novels, and you haven't posted any facts to back up your claim that Tolkien was a Freemason, which is off-topic subject anyway.

 

If you want to discuss other aspects of The Lord of the Rings, like Moriah or Tolkien's background, etc., start your own thread but don't troll this thread.

 

Hopefully, this thread can return to topic and a moderator can delete the off-topic posts.

 

Thank you.

 

Allegedly he was a member of the hermetic order of the golden dawn. Lots of sites claiming but probably not all are reliable. Think it would be hard to prove one way or the other as they don’t freely acknowledge members. I’m not trying to derail just acknowledging that there are claims around

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11 minutes ago, Bombadil said:

Allegedly he was a member of the hermetic order of the golden dawn. Lots of sites claiming but probably not all are reliable. Think it would be hard to prove one way or the other as they don’t freely acknowledge members. I’m not trying to derail just acknowledging that there are claims around

 

I think that's just a bit of wishful thinking that some people have, but none of the biographies that are taken seriously say he was a member, so no real evidence. It doesn't make any difference to me either way. For me not about the author and the cult of personality, but rather about the content of the art. If anyone wants to discuss Tolkien, the man, Mac has a thread on the subject ,here:

 

https://forum.davidicke.com/index.php?/topic/25366-was-tolkien-a-freemason/

 

 

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1 minute ago, RobSS said:

 

I think that's just a bit of wishful thinking that some people have, but none of the biographies that are taken seriously say he was a member, so no real evidence.

 

I agree totally. Just throwing out there the sort of stuff the net chucks out. I have everything ever published by Tolkien. No mention obviously. Tend to not read authors opinions of him because they rely too heavily on hearsay and second hand information about him.

I tend to take him at his word. Trusting in his erudition and integrity. But I’m probably biased because I love his works

 

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On 1/21/2022 at 10:42 PM, RobSS said:

 

Astral reality and dark matter is a fascinating subject, just to think so much is going on without us always being consciously aware of it, but it's also exciting because it means, once the "fog" and spidery web of deceptions, and lies, clears, then whatever is experienced now will be worth it.

 

The imagery used to describe the Mother of the Matrix is not real. There is no actual Shelob "spider" waiting in her snare to entrap us, but the idea is real and cosmic strings and strands are being spun all around us. Creatures like "Shelob" are an artistic device, an attempt to visualise the astral. It's also connected to karma, so we also help to spin the web ourselves by our thoughts and actions.

 

 

A lot of good info out there about Native American belief systems. Astral travel and dreams etc, which could be quite useful to this discussion. Recently read a book by Neil Oliver in which he discusses how modern humans have drifted away, almost completely, from our primal selves. Losing our connection with the true nature of reality

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5 hours ago, Bombadil said:

https://storytellingforeveryone.net/grandmother-spider/
 

Native American creation story about grandmother spider

 

Thanks for the link... fits perfectly in this thread, and just goes to show that the spider woman and matrix mother is primordial and universal. She appears in so many cultures. From the link:

 

"Spider Woman, also known as Grandmother Spider, is a creation goddess in many Native American cultures. Throughout the Americas, she is found among the Maya, Pueblo, Hopi, and Navajo mythology, even among the pre-historic “mound builders” in the Mississippian cultures. There is evidence that the earliest Spider Woman was worshipped by the Maya, where she was named the Earth Mother."

 

She can also appear as being wise:

 

"The Spider Woman appears as a wise, old woman who guides people to wisdom and knowledge, often as a powerful teacher and helper. The Hopis speak of a Spider Grandmother who, weaving her webs, thought the world itself into existence."

 

When Parsifal hears about the Grail for the first time, he says, "Who is the Grail". Richard Wagner treats Kundry with a great deal of respect, regarding Kundry as being the Holy Grail itself.

 

J.R.R. Tolkien's take is different and interesting... taking a much harsher line on the mother of the matrix, Shelob couldn't be more predatory and evil, even if she tried, so quite a contrast to how Wagner viewed the archetype, and how she's portrayed in ancient mythology.

 

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