peter Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 (edited) PS, the fact that Ink's opening gambit with his original post was LOL probably says much more about the post than the actual content Edited January 15, 2022 by peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSS Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 8 hours ago, peter said: If indeed it is, so what, the premise of your assertion was the fragmentation of the book was caused by the fall of man, which by your own statements is obviously incorrect with regards to Ink's opinions about time and the creation there of. Do I agree with his opinion ,no I don't ,however that is not relevant to this discussion. Given Ink's original assumption I can see with a few subtle changes in terminology his opinion as to the creation of time would move some what closer to mine ,but not by much mind you You're trying to make something that's simple sound more complicated than it is. I was addressing the question regarding the "fragmentation of the book", which is caused by the over-development of the brain. Seeing the book as fragmented is only one way of seeing the book. The brain compartmentalises things, turns things into fractions, but time, like consciousness, has no beginning and no end, it's infinite. If you look at the book without the brain, time is infinite - the past, future and present are all one and happening in the now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSS Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 (edited) lol Time without the brain getting in the way: Edited January 15, 2022 by RobSS 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Owl Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 As I see things, if we have 'three dimensions' that define our physical reality - ie the x,y,z axes - then time is the 'fourth dimension'. If I look around my living room here right now, everything is 'static'. This is 'now' and apart from myself moving my arms to type at my keyboard and looking up and down at my screen, nothing else has changed or moved around. Time, the 'fourth dimension', determines where everything was at a particular point on a linear scale. Two minutes ago, I wasn't sat here, I was in my kitchen getting a beer from the fridge. But that is now history, just a memory for me. In 'infinite awareness', there is no time, everything is everywhere at the same point. Where I am right now, in this living room sat at my computer, everything that has ever happened and everything that ever will happen is right here with me. Time allows things to be put into order, as a form of linear progression. This is why I believe people see 'ghosts' at certain locations, somehow (I cannot explain exactly how) some people are able to briefly step out of, or allow another 'timeline' to bleed into their own. And this leads into the concept of 'parallel universes' too, every action or decision that one makes helps to create the 'now'. But amongst the infinite possibilities, there is another parallel reality - which I am not experiencing NOW - where I didn't get a beer from the fridge but had a glass of wine instead. As for the future, well it "hasn't happened yet". I could wait until 7pm to go and put the oven on so I can have a pizza, or I could just go in five minutes. Why wait five minutes, I could just go and do it NOW. Time is a very abstract concept, and difficult to describe. People often ask me "what you got planned for next week?" and I sometimes don't honestly know, I do prefer to take each day as it comes and don't like to think too far ahead. "I could do that next week, but why not do it now?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobb Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 1 hour ago, Grumpy Owl said: If I look around my living room here right now, everything is 'static'. This is 'now' and apart from myself moving my arms to type at my keyboard and looking up and down at my screen, nothing else has changed or moved around This is where relativity kicks in as the staticness is only apparent with respect to your proximity, as everything is in fact in motion, so is time passing us by or are we moving through time, conundrum, I think a bit of both is at play but will have to think of something analogous to help describe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobb Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 23 hours ago, peter said: 1 is the frequency the same for all matter ( I suspect it is since everything is made from the same building blocks) String theory seems to deal with this in an understandable way, even though it allegedly involves eleven dimensions, I think it could just be one single dimension/vibration and an infinite number of them and things harmonise together like velcro does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobb Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 1 hour ago, Grumpy Owl said: As for the future, well it "hasn't happened yet" I disagree, events have not happened yet and those things are still to be written so to speak, but the future I think is a very real substance just like the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobb Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 23 hours ago, peter said: 4 with regards to time ,if indeed time needs matter to exist as some believe, does that mean time is constantly stopping and starting If it does that would point to a more digital version of Nature rather than a smooth flowing analog of things in Nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobb Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 1 hour ago, Grumpy Owl said: This is why I believe people see 'ghosts' at certain locations, somehow (I cannot explain exactly how) some people are able to briefly step out of, or allow another 'timeline' to bleed into their own Oh, I have had similar thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 6 hours ago, bobb said: String theory seems to deal with this in an understandable way, even though it allegedly involves eleven dimensions, I think it could just be one single dimension/vibration and an infinite number of them and things harmonise together like velcro does. personally I think string theory is bullshit. Don't ask me to explain it however about 10 years ago I had a 15 min one on one conversation with Nassim Harrimen with regards to string theory, I told him I found it confusing and couldn't get my head around it , he said that's because the math makes no sense and they just cherry pick the most applicable answer out of the over 500 available. Whether you agree or not is by the by but if you look at the record of this fellow over the last 30 years I think he is on the money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 6 hours ago, bobb said: If it does that would point to a more digital version of Nature rather than a smooth flowing analog of things in Nature. no because this is happening at such a high frequency that our senses perceive it as seamless ,just like a movie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 14 hours ago, RobSS said: You're trying to make something that's simple sound more complicated than it is. I was addressing the question regarding the "fragmentation of the book", which is caused by the over-development of the brain. Seeing the book as fragmented is only one way of seeing the book. The brain compartmentalises things, turns things into fractions, but time, like consciousness, has no beginning and no end, it's infinite. If you look at the book without the brain, time is infinite - the past, future and present are all one and happening in the now. and you accuse me of making things complicated,the whole premise of the discussion was the book was fragmented by the fall of man ,nothing more nothing less which by your own argument is incorrect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSS Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, peter said: and you accuse me of making things complicated,the whole premise of the discussion was the book was fragmented by the fall of man ,nothing more nothing less which by your own argument is incorrect Matter has been around long before man arrived, but it's only when man appeared on the scene with his over-developed intellect that the "book" appeared fragmented. Edited January 16, 2022 by RobSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 1 hour ago, RobSS said: Matter has been around long before man arrived, but it's only when man appeared on the scene with his over-developed intellect that the "book" appeared fragmented. We seem to be going around in circles,you have dismissed the value of the consciousness of animals, what about dolphins , and whales they have been around a lot longer than us and by any measure are very intelligent. Like I asked before,what makes man so bloody special outside his own mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSS Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 9 hours ago, peter said: We seem to be going around in circles,you have dismissed the value of the consciousness of animals, what about dolphins , and whales they have been around a lot longer than us and by any measure are very intelligent. I haven't dismissed the consciousness of animals. I just suggested they may see time in a different way by only living in the moment, which is something that's more challenging for humans. I said that living in the moment, in the now, is what can give animals a lot of their charm. 9 hours ago, peter said: Like I asked before,what makes man so bloody special outside his own mind I've never said humans are special. I said humans with overdeveloped intellects have more difficulty appreciating the unity and wholeness of time, which again is why I quoted Schopenhauer: "The brain may be regarded as a kind of parasite of the organism, a pensioner, as it were, who dwells with the body." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Owl Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 21 hours ago, bobb said: I disagree, events have not happened yet and those things are still to be written so to speak, but the future I think is a very real substance just like the past. Well, yes, actually now I think about it, there is actually a future, but it is all certainly determined by the actions that we take in the present, the NOW. I can predict with some certainty that tomorrow morning I will get up, have a shower and travel to work on the bus. Will the bus be on time? Which vehicle will it be? At this point in time, I have no idea, apart from that it'll probably be one or two minutes late That much I know will happen. But its the future, and anything could happen really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 6 hours ago, RobSS said: "The brain may be regarded as a kind of parasite of the organism, a pensioner, as it were, who dwells with the body." Why do you keep repeating this your up to 4 -5 times now What I would say to that statement is the brain can be regarded as many different things , it just depends on who is doing the regarding 6 hours ago, RobSS said: I've never said humans are special. I said humans with overdeveloped intellects have more difficulty appreciating the unity and wholeness of time, which again is why I quoted Schopenhauer: They have an overdeveloped intellects compared to what Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSS Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 12 minutes ago, peter said: Why do you keep repeating this your up to 4 -5 times now What I would say to that statement is the brain can be regarded as many different things , it just depends on who is doing the regarding They have an overdeveloped intellects compared to what I can't say what you should say. I'm just commenting that it's brain that creates the past, present and future aspects of time. If the brain isn't involved, then time is what it is, which is infinite, having no beginning, end or middle. All is one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 10 hours ago, RobSS said: I haven't dismissed the consciousness of animals. I just suggested they may see time in a different way by only living in the moment, which is something that's more challenging for humans. I said that living in the moment, in the now, is what can give animals a lot of their charm. Whales and dolphins just to name a couple of species have obvious social hierarchies and their own language ,they cooperate with each other with regards to hunting and food appropriation, to do that they must have a memory and intellect, how far that's developed is anyone's guess . If they have a memory and intellect which they require to develop their own unique language and since they have been around a lot longer than man,I would in my opinion be safe to assume that the book fractured long before the so called fall of man what ever that is. If you believe that animals only live in the moment with no memory every time night falls all the animals on earth would think what the hell just happened Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSS Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, peter said: Whales and dolphins just to name a couple of species have obvious social hierarchies and their own language ,they cooperate with each other with regards to hunting and food appropriation, to do that they must have a memory and intellect, how far that's developed is anyone's guess . If they have a memory and intellect which they require to develop their own unique language and since they have been around a lot longer than man,I would in my opinion be safe to assume that the book fractured long before the so called fall of man what ever that is. If you believe that animals only live in the moment with no memory every time night falls all the animals on earth would think what the hell just happened I understand what you're saying, but animals don't measure time like we do. They don't say to themselves this or that happened at such or such a time, an that such or such a date, in this or that year. It's just a living memory. It's only human brains that measure out time and have calendars and diaries, otherwise we wouldn't know how many days, weeks or years ago we did something. Without recording it, we'd forget and it'd only be a memory. Edited January 17, 2022 by RobSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 1 hour ago, RobSS said: I understand what you're saying, but animals don't measure time like we do. They don't say to themselves this or that happened at such or such a time, an that such or such a date, in this or that year. It's just a living memory. It's only human brains that measure out time and have calendars and diaries, otherwise we wouldn't know how many days, weeks or years ago we did something. Without recording it, we'd forget and it'd only be a memory. How do you know how they measure time and what they think , bears return to a stream at a particular time for the salmon, birds start their migration on a certain day etc etc etc. Just because they don't write it down means absolute nothing all that suggests to me is our memory is not as good as theirs. 2 hours ago, RobSS said: Without recording it, we'd forget and it'd only be a memory. But if it is a memory that means we didn't forget whether it was recorded or not This is my last post on this matter ,I'm sure your just winding me up as you have contradicted yourself so many times and changed the premise of your original statement so we will just leave it at that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSS Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 1 minute ago, peter said: How do you know how they measure time and what they think , bears return to a stream at a particular time for the salmon, birds start their migration on a certain day etc etc etc. Just because they don't write it down means absolute nothing all that suggests to me is our memory is not as good as theirs. But if it is a memory that means we didn't forget whether it was recorded or not This is my last post on this matter ,I'm sure your just winding me up as you have contradicted yourself so many times and changed the premise of your original statement so we will just leave it at that I don't see where I've contradicted myself. It's true bears return to a stream at a particular time for salmon, etc. but they don't look in their diary or at their watch. It's built in. May be animals aren't the perfect example, but they're a better example than humans, who have developed a very sophisticated brain to calibrate and measure time, but the main point is that if you completely circumvent the brain, including the brains of animals, there's no way of knowing where time is. It's like the clock on the wall that always says, "now". Three other people got it, so it seems that either some people get it, or they don't. No problem though, it's just the way we are!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSS Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solasta Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 14 hours ago, RobSS said: time is what it is, which is infinite, having no beginning, end or middle. By its nature that must be true, since you cannot have a beginning involving nothing before, or an end involving nothing after. But very importantly if there was a state of nothing and there was no conciousness to comprehend this nothing then surely that represents a finality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 3 hours ago, alexa said: Another one of your insightful contributions, start praying for another meme I'm sure another will come along soon , so you can copy that as well, god forbid (pun intended)that you actually think of something for yourself 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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