TheConsultant Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 Just now, jois said: Done that it's electro magntism Virtual photons lol. Seriously its point source, go learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jois Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 4 minutes ago, TheConsultant said: Its a point source object. Gravity doesn't pull. Minimising energy is conservation of energy and plays in to everything including magnetism. What is the magnetic force that is overcoming gravity? No gravity doesn't pull. Not at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jois Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, TheConsultant said: Virtual photons lol. Seriously its point source, go learn. Electro magnetism is in no way dependent of virtual photons. Which don't exist anyway and no one serious claims they do.its just a maths trick Edited September 12, 2022 by jois Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheConsultant Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, jois said: Electro magnetism is in no way dependent of virtual photons. Which don't exist anyway.its just a maths trick Yes, I was being facetious , as much of our understanding is based on mathematics rather than observed phenomena. Electromagnetism is light. Edited September 12, 2022 by TheConsultant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jois Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 1 minute ago, TheConsultant said: Yes, I was being facetious , as much of our understanding is based on mathematics rather than observed phenomena. Electromagnetism is light. All light is electro magnetism not all electro magnetism is light Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jois Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 Just now, jois said: All light is electro magnetism not all electro magnetism is light Can we do why magnets disprove e equals mc2 please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheConsultant Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, jois said: Can we do why magnets disprove e equals mc2 please We don't need to go over it all over again surely? Same reason a magnet defies gravity with no energy input. Plot it on a graph, energy = zero but its mass is not, already broken e=mc2. You cannot have 0 times its mass as it would always output 0. Edited September 12, 2022 by TheConsultant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheConsultant Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 9 minutes ago, jois said: All light is electro magnetism not all electro magnetism is light OK, so what changes between the top and bottom of that spectrum outside of the speed of oscillation and the name we give it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jois Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 1 minute ago, TheConsultant said: We don't need to go over it all over again surely? Same reason a magnet defies gravity with no energy input. Plot it on a graph, energy = zero but its mass is not, already broken e=mc2. You cannot have 0 times its mass as it would always output 0. Well have never done it E equals mc2 which is not in fact the full equation should you ever have cause to use it Is the total energy contain in the " mass" what ever that mass may be That include s the energy contain in the atoms plus any kinetic or electro magnasm stored. So a magnet has its energy from its atomic structure plus the stored electro magnetic energy. A compressed spring has its atomic structure plus the kinetic energy in the compression. Which means if you transpose the formulation both a magnet and a compressed spring weigh more that their counter parts that are not storing energy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheConsultant Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, jois said: Well have never done it E equals mc2 which is not in fact the full equation should you ever have cause to use it Is the total energy contain in the " mass" what ever that mass may be That include s the energy contain in the atoms plus any kinetic or electro magnasm stored. So a magnet has its energy from its atomic structure plus the stored electro magnetic energy. A compressed spring has its atomic structure plus the kinetic energy in the compression. Which means if you transpose the formulation both a magnet and a compressed spring weigh more that their counter parts that are not storing energy Put the full equation out, it is still wrong. lol. So you are saying a magnet is storing potential energy? and that is what its using to stay on a surface? because a magnet has nothing to do with electromagnetism, storage, nor potential, regardless of how many times you say it. A magnet is a point source object, like a laser is point source light. Edited September 12, 2022 by TheConsultant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jois Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, TheConsultant said: Put the full equation out, it is still wrong. lol. So you are saying a magnet is storing potential energy? and that is what its using to stay on a surface? because a magnet has nothing to do with electromagnetism, regardless of how many times you say it. A magnet is a point source object, like a laser is point source light. Try reading it mate.its a lot less time consuming. I didn't mention potential energy. Just kinetic and electro magnet energy Edited September 12, 2022 by jois Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheConsultant Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, jois said: Try reading it mate.its a lot less time consuming. I didn't mention potential energy. Just kinetic and electro magnet energy I read it and much like most of your replies they are meaningless. And by your definition a magnet should become heavier after it becomes a magnet? Edited September 12, 2022 by TheConsultant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webtrekker Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 A magnet stays 'stuck' to a surface such as a fridge nearly indefinitely because the force never diminishes, having no work to do. (Work = force x distance moved). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jois Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, webtrekker said: A magnet stays 'stuck' to a surface such as a fridge nearly indefinitely because the force never diminishes, having no work to do. (Work = force x distance moved). No. I've had fridge magnets give up after a decade of so , I'm not sure that's the right formular .batteries dont move either but do tend to diminish over time The work done is resisting potential energy. Ie not moving Edited September 12, 2022 by jois Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheConsultant Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 1 minute ago, webtrekker said: A magnet stays 'stuck' to a surface such as a fridge nearly indefinitely because the force never diminishes, having no work to do. (Work = force x distance moved). You use the word force there. What force? where is this coming from? Why does a magnet have no work to do as it still has mass and thus is being affected by gravity is it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jois Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, jois said: No. I've had fridge magnets give up after a decade of so , I'm not sure that's the right formular batteries done move either but do tend to diminish over time 4 minutes ago, TheConsultant said: You use the word force there. What force? where is this coming from? Why does a magnet have no work to do as it still has mass and thus is being affected by gravity is it not? Just covered that above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheConsultant Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, jois said: Just covered that above No, no you haven't. Your reply exists though, I will give you that. Edited September 12, 2022 by TheConsultant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jois Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, TheConsultant said: No, no you haven't. You reply exists though, I will give you that. I said exactly the same as you.though in a more elegant and less demanding way. But let's wait for him to return and get back to either the energy equivalence principal ( e equals mc2) or entropy. You choose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheConsultant Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, jois said: I said exactly the same as you.though in a more elegant and less demanding way. But let's wait for him to return and get back to either the energy equivalence principal ( e equals mc2) or entropy. You choose We wouldn't be disagreeing if you said the same as me. Nothing to do with electromagnetism or stored energy at all, on any level, obviously. Its ALIGNMENT of atomic structure, not storage or potential, or anything remotely like a battery like your analogy somewhere above. When I ask questions it is not because I need the answers, its generally because I wish for people to think about it for themselves. Edited September 12, 2022 by TheConsultant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jois Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, TheConsultant said: We wouldn't be disagreeing if you said the same as me. Nothing to do with electromagnetism or stored energy at all, on any level, obviously. Please read what I wrote. My reply to webtrecker said much the same as yours with regard to a magnet having to overcome potential energy/ gravity. Can we stop having a debate with someone who isn't here at the moment and get back to our interesting discussion Edited September 12, 2022 by jois Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jois Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 5 minutes ago, TheConsultant said: We wouldn't be disagreeing if you said the same as me. Nothing to do with electromagnetism or stored energy at all, on any level, obviously. So.... How do magnets disprove e equals mc2 I've given a synopsis. What's your explanation of why I'm wrong ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheConsultant Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 Just now, jois said: So.... How do magnets disprove e equals mc2 I've given a synopsis. What's your explanation of why I'm wrong ? lol. I am done, utterly pointless. I have explained why that is the case multiple times now. I assume you do not understand it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webtrekker Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 15 minutes ago, TheConsultant said: You use the word force there. What force? where is this coming from? Why does a magnet have no work to do as it still has mass and thus is being affected by gravity is it not? Ok. By lifting a magnet and placing it on a fridge you are carrying out work and, because the magnet is then moving against gravity, then it will gain energy. Once placed on the fridge it will no longer be moving ,so will not expend any energy due to it not having any work to do. It will stay there indefinitely. Now, I'm no expert, but maybe after many times of removing and replacing the magnet (as people often do to clean the fridge or just create a new arrangement) the magnet will gradually become demagnetised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jois Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 Just now, TheConsultant said: lol. I am done, utterly pointless. I have explained why that is the case multiple times now. I assume you do not understand it? You've been adamant in your claims I'm wrong. But very light on expinations of why that may be so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jois Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, webtrekker said: Ok. By lifting a magnet and placing it on a fridge you are carrying out work and, because the magnet is then moving against gravity, then it will gain energy. Once placed on the fridge it will no longer be moving ,so will not expend any energy due to it not having any work to do. It will stay there indefinitely. Now, I'm no expert, but maybe after many times of removing and replacing the magnet (as people often do to clean the fridge or just create a new arrangement) the magnet will gradually become demagnetised. All true. But now it has stored gravitational potential energy. Ie it want to fall.this being resisted by the magnetic attraction. Which is ongoing work Like holding a bag of potatoes is ongoing work Edited September 12, 2022 by jois Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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