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READ ME, AND YOU WILL BE LIKE GODS - KNOWING ALL THINGS GOOD AND EVIL


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4 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

 I know the Christians try to distance themselves from magic and divination etc but they themselves are involved in the Occult or if you will the supernatural, they just think they are different because its a religion.

 

You're obviously in the 'Harry Potter school of thought' regarding the occult, rather than the 'Frodo school'. The former uses magic as a means to get through life. The latter renounced magic and the occult, and in so doing had to rely on his skills that could only originate from within. This gave him the ability to overcome his lower self and defeat evil, so if you're implying that all Christians rely on the occult, you're incorrect. Also, not all Christians belong to a church or an organised religion.

 

4 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

The charge of Christianity being based on Paganism has been levelled at the Church for centuries by greater scholars and religious students than me. I just agree with their interpretation.

 

 

The principle difference between Christianity and Paganism is that in Christianity, there is a Redeemer who died for the sins of humanity. In Paganism, no such person exists, so no, the essence of Christianity is not based on Paganism, but of course, you'd be correct if you only want to look at most organised religion and churches. The word 'church' isn't even mentioned in original biblical texts. The word 'church' is actually of Pagan origin. Many beliefs and customs of what I call 'churchianity' are based on Pagan beliefs.

 

 

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On 12/12/2021 at 8:19 PM, RobSS said:

Are you a materialist? Just asking...

 

No, I'm not. I'm a bit eclectic, slightly Pantheist, but I believe the universe itself has a consciousness that is God and we are all connected to it and everything is a part of God. I believe God is eternal and infinite and beyond our human comprehension, which is Agnostic.

 

I'm also slightly Christian in that I believe the instruction given on the Sermon on the Mount was true spiritual teaching and consists of the truth and through it we could have Heaven on Earth. I do accept the Bible holds some spiritual truths.  I do accept we have had Prophets to guide us. I do accept the one we know as Jesus the Christ was one of them, a highly powerful spiritual person. Hence I do not see spiritual sight as evil, it has helped enlighten us, having humans that can explain to us about the next world.

 

I do not believe salvation to be exclusive to a certain denomination of Christianity nor do I believe you need a Church or a Priest to connect with God or be a good person or be a person worthy of salvation, I'm a bit of a Quaker in that way. Everyone goes to heaven, just some a little higher than others, depending on how you conduct your affairs down here. As Jesus said 'In my Fathers kingdom there are many mansions' And if your really bad then yes there is also a place for you but it is not eternal damnation to be tortured by Satan and his imps. The doctrine of Hell is not substantiated in the original texts, it has been inserted by the creators of the Roman version of Christianity. It is a false doctrine. I do not believe in Original Sin or the concept of the Trinity or Hell and Satan - I'm a bit Unitarian also.

 

SBNR - Spiritual But Not Religious.

 

See what I mean, rather eclectic.

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1 hour ago, pi3141 said:

 

No, I'm not. I'm a bit eclectic, slightly Pantheist, but I believe the universe itself has a consciousness that is God and we are all connected to it and everything is a part of God. I believe God is eternal and infinite and beyond our human comprehension, which is Agnostic.

 

I'm also slightly Christian in that I believe the instruction given on the Sermon on the Mount was true spiritual teaching and consists of the truth and through it we could have Heaven on Earth. I do accept the Bible holds some spiritual truths.  I do accept we have had Prophets to guide us. I do accept the one we know as Jesus the Christ was one of them, a highly powerful spiritual person. Hence I do not see spiritual sight as evil, it has helped enlighten us, having humans that can explain to us about the next world.

 

I do not believe salvation to be exclusive to a certain denomination of Christianity nor do I believe you need a Church or a Priest to connect with God or be a good person or be a person worthy of salvation, I'm a bit of a Quaker in that way. Everyone goes to heaven, just some a little higher than others, depending on how you conduct your affairs down here. As Jesus said 'In my Fathers kingdom there are many mansions' And if your really bad then yes there is also a place for you but it is not eternal damnation to be tortured by Satan and his imps. The doctrine of Hell is not substantiated in the original texts, it has been inserted by the creators of the Roman version of Christianity. It is a false doctrine. I do not believe in Original Sin or the concept of the Trinity or Hell and Satan - I'm a bit Unitarian also.

 

SBNR - Spiritual But Not Religious.

 

See what I mean, rather eclectic.

 

Like you, I don't belong to any church or organised religion. Like you, I also don't believe salvation is exclusive to any particular denomination. Even Jesus Christ said many would claim things in his name, but he also said that he despite this, there could be cases where he tells these ones to get away from him, but I disagree that everyone goes to heaven, which is why Jesus Christ gave the parable of the wheat and the tares - a reference to the Day of Judgement, when the wicked are separated from just. The meaning of this parable and many others of this type are clear. When his disciples asked him when the end would come, Jesus Christ said it would be like in the days of Noah, which implies not everyone will be saved.


Jesus Christ said, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


In order to be saved, person must have cultivated a soul. A person without a soul can't enter a spiritual paradise. However, only God can judge who has developed a soul during their life on earth. In Jesus Christ's parable of the wheat and the weeds, "the weeds" are later identified, in Matthew, with "the children of the evil one", which is another reason for God separating the wicked from the good at the Divinely ordained Harvest, but of that, no one knows the day or hour when it will come, not even the angels.

 

In Matthew, "the wheat" of Jesus Christ's parable, are identified with with "the children of the Kingdom", and "the harvest"  is identified with "the end of the age".


I don't believe in eternal damnation either. Even the very wicked will be given the opportunity to develop a soul, but they may have to start again from the beginning.


You wrote, "I believe God is eternal and infinite and beyond our human comprehension, which is Agnostic."


I've come across this view many times, but I don't agree with it fully. It's true we can't understand God fully, but we can come to understand him better by understanding his attributes and though what has been revealed about him through Prophets and Jesus Christ.


You wrote, "I do not see spiritual sight as evil,"


I don't understand what you mean by that comment. Where have you come across this belief?

 

 

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8 hours ago, RobSS said:

You wrote, "I do not see spiritual sight as evil,"


I don't understand what you mean by that comment. Where have you come across this belief?

 

 

From the Bible - 

 

New International Version
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

 

English Standard Version
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,


I agree with the 'Not passing through fire' bit as well as all the other evil Pagan and Heathen rituals, but if you have been created with the gift to speak with the dead I do not see it as bad, God created these people, why give them the sight then tell them its 'Detestable'?

 

Of course I have my own theory that the Roman Church want us spiritually blind and totally beholden to them in spiritual matters so they can control us, they seem to fear anyone with real spirituality hence they persecuted and put to death anyone with magical gifts.

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11 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

Of course I have my own theory that the Roman Church want us spiritually blind and totally beholden to them in spiritual matters so they can control us, they seem to fear anyone with real spirituality hence they persecuted and put to death anyone with magical gifts.

 

An example, historically recorded.

 

Hypatia[a] (born c. 350–370; died 415 AD)[1][3] was a Greek Neoplatonist philosopher, astronomer, and mathematician, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, then part of the Eastern Roman Empire. She was a prominent thinker of the Neoplatonic school in Alexandria where she taught philosophy and astronomy.[4] 

 

Hypatia constructed astrolabes and hydrometers, but did not invent either of these, which were both in use long before she was born. Although she herself was a pagan, she was tolerant towards Christians and taught many Christian students, including Synesius, the future bishop of Ptolemais. Ancient sources record that Hypatia was widely beloved by pagans and Christians alike and that she established great influence with the political elite in Alexandria.

 

Murder
According to Socrates Scholasticus, during the Christian season of Lent in March 415, a mob of Christians under the leadership of a lector named Peter, raided Hypatia's carriage as she was travelling home.[96][97][98] They dragged her into a building known as the Kaisarion, a former pagan temple and center of the Roman imperial cult in Alexandria that had been converted into a Christian church.[88][96][98] There, the mob stripped Hypatia naked and murdered her using ostraka,[96][99][100][101] which can either be translated as "roof tiles" or "oyster shells".[96] Damascius adds that they also cut out her eyeballs.[102] They tore her body into pieces and dragged her limbs through the town to a place called Cinarion, where they set them on fire.

 

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia

 

 

Why was Hypatia murdered by Christians? From Isis Unveiled -

 

P252

At the beginning of the fourth century crowds began gathering at the door of the academy where the learned and unfortunate Hypatia expounded the doctrines of the divine Plato and Plotinus, and thereby impeded the progress of Christian proselytism. She too successfully dispelled the mist hanging over the religious "mysteries" invented by the Fathers, not to be considered dangerous. This alone would have been sufficient to imperil both herself and her followers. It was precisely the teaching of this Pagan philosopher, which had been so freely borrowed by the Christians to give a finishing touch to their otherwise incomprehensible scheme, that had seduced so many into joining the new religion; and now the Platonic light began shining so inconveniently bright upon the pious patchwork, as to allow every one to see whence the "revealed" doctrines were derived. 

 

But there was a still greater peril. Hypatia had studied under Plutarch, the head of the Athenian school, and had learned all the secrets of theurgy. While she lived to instruct the multitude, no divine miracles could be produced before one who could divulge the natural causes by which they took place. Her doom was sealed by Cyril, whose eloquence she eclipsed, and whose authority, built on degrading superstitions, had to yield before hers, which was erected on the rock of immutable natural law. It is more than curious that Cave, the author of the Lives of the Fathers, should find it incredible that Cyril sanctioned her murder on account of his "general character." A saint who will sell the gold and silver vessels of his church, and then, after spending the money, lie at his trial, as he did, may well be suspected of anything.

 

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On 12/12/2021 at 7:16 PM, Mr H said:

Very interesting read. And also very confidently written. May I ask what sources you have that leads to this confidence? TY.

 

I have replied once but I though maybe you want some actual sources. Here's a few -

 

The Anchor Bible Series

 

The Anchor Bible Series, which consists of a commentary series, a Bible dictionary, and a reference library,[1] is a scholarly and commercial co-venture which was begun in 1956, with the publication of individual volumes in the commentary series. Having initiated a new era of cooperation in biblical research among scholars, over 1,000 scholars—representing Jewish, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, Muslim, secular, and other traditions—have now contributed to the project.[1] Their works offer discussions that reflect a range of viewpoints across a wide theological spectrum. The Anchor Bible project continues to produce volumes that keep readers current on recent scholarship and are grounded in analysis. The works bring advances in science and technology to bear on biblical materials, making historical and linguistic knowledge related to the interpretation of the biblical record available to experts and students alike. 

 

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_Bible_Series

 

 

The Origin Of All Religious Worship - Charles-François Dupuis

 

Charles François Dupuis (26 October 1742 – 29 September 1809) was a French savant, a professor (from 1766) of rhetoric at the Collège de Lisieux, Paris, who studied for the law in his spare time and was received as avocat in 1770. He also ventured into the field of mathematics and served on the committee that developed the French Republican Calendar.

 

Along with Constantin François Chassebœuf de Volney (1757–1820) Dupuis was known for developing the Christ myth theory, which argued that Christianity was an amalgamation of various ancient mythologies and that Jesus was a mythical character.

 

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles-François_Dupuis

 

 

The Two Babylons - Hislop

 

The Two Babylons, subtitled Romanism and its Origins, is a religious pamphlet published in 1853 by the Presbyterian Free Church of Scotland theologian Alexander Hislop (1807–65).

 

Its central theme is the argument that the Catholic Church is the Babylon of the Apocalypse which is described in the Bible.[1] The book delves into the symbolism of the image which is described in the Book of Revelation – the woman with the golden cup – and it also attempts to prove that many of the fundamental practices of the Church of Rome, and its Modus Operandi in general, stem from non-scriptural precedents. It analyzes modern Catholic holidays, including Christmas and Easter, traces their roots back to pagan festivals and attempts to show that many other accepted doctrines (such as Jesus' crucifixion on a Cross) may not be correct. Hislop provides a detailed comparison of the ancient religion which was established in Babylon (allegedly by the Biblical king Nimrod and his wife, Semiramis) by drawing on a variety of historical and religious sources, in order to show that the modern Papacy and the Catholic Church are the same system as the Babylon that was mentioned by the apostle Paul in the first century (when he commented on the iniquity that was already creeping into the 1st century Christian church[2]) and the author of Revelation.[3] Most modern scholars have rejected the book's arguments as erroneous and based on a flawed understanding of the Babylonian religion,[4][5] but variations of them are accepted among some groups of Christian religions evangelical Protestants.[4][5]

 

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Babylons

 

 

The Devils Pulpit - Rev Robert Taylor

 

Reverend Robert Taylor (18 August 1784 – September[citation needed] 1844), was an early 19th-century Radical, a clergyman turned freethinker. His "Infidel home missionary tour" was an incident in Charles Darwin's education, leaving Darwin with a memory of "the Devil's Chaplain" as a warning of the dangers of dissent from Church of England doctrine.

 

Taylor studied at St John's College, Cambridge for three years to qualify as a clergyman.[3] At that time the University of Cambridge was dominated by the established Church of England and most students were preparing for positions in the Anglican church. The Rev. Charles Simeon got Taylor his first curacy, but five years after ordination Taylor abandoned orthodox Christianity for evangelism and then eccentric anti-clericalism.

 

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taylor_(Radical)

 

 

The Mushroom and The Cross - John Allegro

 

John Marco Allegro (17 February 1923 – 17 February 1988) was an English archaeologist and Dead Sea Scrolls scholar. He was a populariser of the Dead Sea Scrolls through his books and radio broadcasts. He was the editor of some of the most famous and controversial scrolls published, the pesharim. A number of Allegro's later books, including The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, brought him both popular fame and notoriety, and also destroyed his career.

 

Allegro was born in 1923, son of John Allegro and Mabel (nee Perry).[3] Allegro went through Wallington County Grammar School[3] in 1939. He joined the Royal Navy, serving during World War Two. After the war he began training for the Methodist ministry, but found that he was more interested in Hebrew and Greek, so he went to study at Manchester University with fees paid by government grant due to his military service.[4] Allegro received his Honours degree in Oriental Studies at the University of Manchester in 1951. This was followed in 1952 by a master's degree under supervision of H. H. Rowley. While engaged in further research in Hebrew dialects at Oxford under Godfrey Driver in 1953, Allegro was invited by Gerald Lankester Harding to join the team of scholars working on the Dead Sea Scrolls in Jerusalem, where he spent one year working on the scrolls. He became a lecturer in Comparative Semitic Philology in Manchester in 1954.[5][6][7]

 

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_M._Allegro

 

 

All these sources derive from either scholarly work or from Christian trained authors (Hislop and Taylor) and modern accurate translation of the original source materials for scripture (i.e the Bible) We can now read the original Bible stories without mistranslations or added doctrines, we can see Hell is not mentioned once in the original scriptures, it was therefore inserted by the Christians, this is borne out by looking at the beliefs of other denominations and finding corresponding facts, i.e the Coptics do not believe in Hell.

 

The scholars, archaeologists and linguists, thanks partly to finding the Rosetta stone, can now give us a true rendering or translation of the original texts, we still have them, we can go back and re-study them with modern understanding of languages and re-translate to give us the actual writings and not translations flavoured or altered by a particular creed or dogma. Thats why I speak with confidence, I rely on scholarly work (as well as spiritual) and I can produce facts where the dogmatic Christians just spout the same old tired beliefs thats been droned into them by the Roman Church and have no basis in the original scripture.

 

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4 hours ago, pi3141 said:

 

 

From the Bible - 

 

New International Version
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

 

English Standard Version
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,


I agree with the 'Not passing through fire' bit as well as all the other evil Pagan and Heathen rituals, but if you have been created with the gift to speak with the dead I do not see it as bad, God created these people, why give them the sight then tell them its 'Detestable'?

 

Of course I have my own theory that the Roman Church want us spiritually blind and totally beholden to them in spiritual matters so they can control us, they seem to fear anyone with real spirituality hence they persecuted and put to death anyone with magical gifts.

 

The reason why conversing with the dead is forbidden is because of the problem of imposter spirits, i.e., demons.

 

When I was very young, living at home, my mother came into contact with a woman called Mrs. Oleskevich. She was a grand Polish lady and had just immigrated to London. I used to find her interesting because she'd share stories about wolves in the forest that used come by her house in a rural area of Poland. She had been a Spiritualist and used to contact the dead, but ran into spiritual difficulties hearing voices in her head. They tormented her and instructed her to do things. She wanted to become a Christianity in order to cleanse herself of unclean spirits.

 

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1 hour ago, RobSS said:

She had been a Spiritualist and used to contact the dead, but ran into spiritual difficulties hearing voices in her head. They tormented her and instructed her to do things. She wanted to become a Christianity in order to cleanse herself of unclean spirits.

 

 

Yes my Dad had a similar experience, after a while he was constantly hearing voices so he shut it down and stopped being a medium. He didn't join a church though although he quoted the Bible etc.

 

Not sure about joining organized religion to free hetself though, she may have gone from one bad situation to another.

 

There are of course mediums who cope perfectly well with the condition and see it as a gift and a blessing, although again some of them will admit it can be a bit of a curse. And there are people who develop medium powers for a short duration in their life and then stop, often they are very powerful mediums for the period they are active, then they go back to normal.

 

Like I repeatedly say, do not get involved in anything spiritual unless you know what your getting into.

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14 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

Yes my Dad had a similar experience, after a while he was constantly hearing voices so he shut it down and stopped being a medium. He didn't join a church though although he quoted the Bible etc.

 

Not sure about joining organized religion to free hetself though, she may have gone from one bad situation to another.

 

There are of course mediums who cope perfectly well with the condition and see it as a gift and a blessing, although again some of them will admit it can be a bit of a curse. And there are people who develop medium powers for a short duration in their life and then stop, often they are very powerful mediums for the period they are active, then they go back to normal.

 

Like I repeatedly say, do not get involved in anything spiritual unless you know what your getting into.

 

 

Have you read The Siren Call of the Hungry Ghosts by Joe Fisher?

 

 

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55 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

Yes my Dad had a similar experience, after a while he was constantly hearing voices so he shut it down and stopped being a medium. He didn't join a church though although he quoted the Bible etc.

 

Not sure about joining organized religion to free hetself though, she may have gone from one bad situation to another.

 

There are of course mediums who cope perfectly well with the condition and see it as a gift and a blessing, although again some of them will admit it can be a bit of a curse. And there are people who develop medium powers for a short duration in their life and then stop, often they are very powerful mediums for the period they are active, then they go back to normal.

 

Like I repeatedly say, do not get involved in anything spiritual unless you know what your getting into.

 

My mother was a member of a religious organisation, the Jehovah's Witnesses. When I was growing up and was learning about such things, I never felt comfortable with the idea of belonging to a formal religious group, so I didn't follow in my mother's footsteps. When I left home, I no longer had anything to do with organised religion.

 

 

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On 12/13/2021 at 5:42 PM, RobSS said:

 

You're obviously in the 'Harry Potter school of thought' regarding the occult, rather than the 'Frodo school'. The former uses magic as a means to get through life. The latter renounced magic and the occult, and in so doing had to rely on his skills that could only originate from within. This gave him the ability to overcome his lower self and defeat evil, so if you're implying that all Christians rely on the occult, you're incorrect. Also, not all Christians belong to a church or an organised religion.

 

 

The principle difference between Christianity and Paganism is that in Christianity, there is a Redeemer who died for the sins of humanity. In Paganism, no such person exists, so no, the essence of Christianity is not based on Paganism, but of course, you'd be correct if you only want to look at most organised religion and churches. The word 'church' isn't even mentioned in original biblical texts. The word 'church' is actually of Pagan origin. Many beliefs and customs of what I call 'churchianity' are based on Pagan beliefs.

 

 

I'm a spiritual practicalist, I only deal with those pieces of information that are relevant to me becoming Siddhartha Buddha 2.0

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On 12/14/2021 at 2:42 AM, RobSS said:

 

You're obviously in the 'Harry Potter school of thought' regarding the occult, rather than the 'Frodo school'. The former uses magic as a means to get through life. The latter renounced magic and the occult, and in so doing had to rely on his skills that could only originate from within. This gave him the ability to overcome his lower self and defeat evil, so if you're implying that all Christians rely on the occult, you're incorrect. Also, not all Christians belong to a church or an organised religion.

 

 

The principle difference between Christianity and Paganism is that in Christianity, there is a Redeemer who died for the sins of humanity. In Paganism, no such person exists, so no, the essence of Christianity is not based on Paganism, but of course, you'd be correct if you only want to look at most organised religion and churches. The word 'church' isn't even mentioned in original biblical texts. The word 'church' is actually of Pagan origin. Many beliefs and customs of what I call 'churchianity' are based on Pagan beliefs.

 

 

 

This is a valuable post.

 

 

 

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On 12/13/2021 at 10:42 PM, RobSS said:

 

You're obviously in the 'Harry Potter school of thought' regarding the occult, rather than the 'Frodo school'. The former uses magic as a means to get through life. The latter renounced magic and the occult, and in so doing had to rely on his skills that could only originate from within. This gave him the ability to overcome his lower self and defeat evil, so if you're implying that all Christians rely on the occult, you're incorrect. Also, not all Christians belong to a church or an organised religion.

 

 

The principle difference between Christianity and Paganism is that in Christianity, there is a Redeemer who died for the sins of humanity. In Paganism, no such person exists, so no, the essence of Christianity is not based on Paganism, but of course, you'd be correct if you only want to look at most organised religion and churches. The word 'church' isn't even mentioned in original biblical texts. The word 'church' is actually of Pagan origin. Many beliefs and customs of what I call 'churchianity' are based on Pagan beliefs.

 

 

 

Well you seem to like labelling people so ok. Do you think thats being judgemental? Looking to classify people into a group.

 

Anyway, I think there were some Pagan religions that believed in a redeemer saviour so I think you are wrong there.

 

Also some Pagans believed in the 'One God' concept like Christianity. On my religion thread I have detailed the similarities between Pagan practices and Christianity so its nothing new to me and I agree with the sentiment. Not sure why you seem to disagree with me yet present the same idea I have presented on another thread.

 

Regarding the word 'Church' yes I believe it was a Pagan word and I've read it originally was a designation for 'House of the Devil' and was used to identify Temple's to stay away from. And I think even forming or building a Church or Temple stems from Pagan superstitions, just look at all the Mystery school temples and Oracles predating our Churches. 

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23 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

Well you seem to like labelling people so ok. Do you think thats being judgemental? Looking to classify people into a group.

 

I was just challenging whether you are or not in a rhetorical way.

 

23 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

Anyway, I think there were some Pagan religions that believed in a redeemer saviour so I think you are wrong there.

 

Do you have any evidence? I'm not saying there may not be redeemers in Pagan religions but not any who died for the sins of others, but if you have evidence otherwise, It'd be interesting to see...

 

23 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

Regarding the word 'Church' yes I believe it was a Pagan word and I've read it originally was a designation for 'House of the Devil' and was used to identify Temple's to stay away from. And I think even forming or building a Church or Temple stems from Pagan superstitions, just look at all the Mystery school temples and Oracles predating our Churches. 

 

 

It's an interesting subject. JC also said that God does not dwell in any house built by the hands of men!

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, RobSS said:

I was just challenging whether you are or not in a rhetorical way.

 

 

Oh I see, well for me Magic is real. I experimented with Psychokinesis when I was younger and was able to move an object with my mind. I see religion, organised religion that is, a a Magical practice and therefore of the Occult. I view Religion as Occult and Magical. Just don't see much Magic going on in traditional Churches. I say the Organised Church is a fraud and not spiritual at all regardless of all their whimsical practices and the prayers etc I know the Catholic Church does have exorcists but lets be honest if you went to your local church vicar with a spiritual crisis, a possession, how much help would they be? (I have now met one vicar who is also a Medium so there is some in there that know what they are talking about)

 

Also I am an amateur Card Magician and have an interest in the occult and esoteric knowledge. That extends to practical knowledge like Lock Picking for instance, anything not well known interests me.

 

1 hour ago, RobSS said:

Do you have any evidence? I'm not saying there may not be redeemers in Pagan religions but not any who died for the sins of others, but if you have evidence otherwise, It'd be interesting to see...

 

 

Well I did a quick Google to look, I have a quote from a book I will post tomorrow and there is this for instance -

 

Mithra: The “Pagan” Christ?

So too does the ancient writer Porphyry (234-c. 305 AD/CE) state that the Roman Mithraists themselves believed their religion had been founded by the Persian savior Zoroaster.

Link - https://www.kavehfarrokh.com/heritage/mithra-the-pagan-christ/

 

Mithra was also known as the 'Good Shepherd' like Christ, and a Shepherd is a Saviour or redeemer figure.

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24 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

Oh I see, well for me Magic is real. I experimented with Psychokinesis when I was younger and was able to move an object with my mind. I see religion, organised religion that is, a a Magical practice and therefore of the Occult. I view Religion as Occult and Magical. Just don't see much Magic going on in traditional Churches. I say the Organised Church is a fraud and not spiritual at all regardless of all their whimsical practices and the prayers etc I know the Catholic Church does have exorcists but lets be honest if you went to your local church vicar with a spiritual crisis, a possession, how much help would they be? (I have now met one vicar who is also a Medium so there is some in there that know what they are talking about)

 

Also I am an amateur Card Magician and have an interest in the occult and esoteric knowledge. That extends to practical knowledge like Lock Picking for instance, anything not well known interests me.

 

 

I have no doubt spirits exist in the invisible world beyond, and that they can help people perform magic, but I don't need to put through a call to any spirit to prove that because I don't doubt it, and I don't need help from unseen spirits. Everything that I need is already within. I'm happy to rely on my own abilities to get through life. That's the difference between Harry Potter and Frodo. Frodo renounced magic and in so doing was able to defeat evil. I find that makes life more interesting, but at least we're agreed that 'churchianity', and organised religion is not a good thing.

 

24 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

Well I did a quick Google to look, I have a quote from a book I will post tomorrow and there is this for instance -

 

Mithra: The “Pagan” Christ?

So too does the ancient writer Porphyry (234-c. 305 AD/CE) state that the Roman Mithraists themselves believed their religion had been founded by the Persian savior Zoroaster.

Link - https://www.kavehfarrokh.com/heritage/mithra-the-pagan-christ/

 

Mithra was also known as the 'Good Shepherd' like Christ, and a Shepherd is a Saviour or redeemer figure.

 

I'm not doubting that there are Pagan Christs. There are many Pagan Christs, but my point is that Jesus Christ is the only one who sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity. Mithra, and all the other Pagan deities died, but there's no evidence they sacrificed themselves for the sins of humanity. Hope that's clearer!

 

 

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6 minutes ago, RobSS said:

I have no doubt spirits exist in the invisible world beyond, and that they can help people perform magic, but I don't need to put through a call to any spirit to prove that because I don't doubt it, and I don't need help from unseen spirits. Everything that I need is already within. I'm happy to rely on my own abilities to get through life. That's the difference between Harry Potter and Frodo. Frodo renounced magic and in so doing was able to defeat evil. I find that makes life more interesting, but at least we're agreed that 'churchianity', and organised religion is not a good thing.

 

I see, I to do not use magic to get through life, I just know it is real and others do. Regarding spiritual world, I have recently (5 years or so) taken a renewed interest in Religion and I see both Religion and the Spiritual world as the same thing. I think its a calling to look into these areas and receiving messages from the dead is not beyond probability and can be informative, encouraging and healing.

 

6 minutes ago, RobSS said:

I'm not doubting that there are Pagan Christs. There are many Pagan Christs, but my point is that Jesus Christ is the only one who sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity. Mithra, and all the other Pagan deities died, but there's no evidence they sacrificed themselves for the sins of humanity. Hope that's clearer!

 

Ah! Ok. Well in that case I cannot provide a saviour like Christ from Paganism,  the message from the one we call Christ was different to the others in the regard he took on the sins of the world so to speak. He came to free us from old superstitions and establish a new covenant. He was the peak of the prophets and indeed came to free us. Just a shame he got muddled up with a fiction and became another toll for control by powerful people through organised religion.

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4 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

I see, I to do not use magic to get through life, I just know it is real and others do. Regarding spiritual world, I have recently (5 years or so) taken a renewed interest in Religion and I see both Religion and the Spiritual world as the same thing. I think its a calling to look into these areas and receiving messages from the dead is not beyond probability and can be informative, encouraging and healing.

 

I know that magic is real too, but I don't need proof to know that it exists. For me, just being alive is enough to know that there's more to reality than the material world. I wouldn't take the risk conversing with the dead because of the possibility of imposter spirits, but I wouldn't prevent anyone else doing that as we all have to take responsibility for what we do. Take care!

 

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On 12/18/2021 at 8:33 PM, RobSS said:

Do you have any evidence? I'm not saying there may not be redeemers in Pagan religions but not any who died for the sins of others, but if you have evidence otherwise, It'd be interesting to see...

 

For evidence I was going to post this -

 

The Pagan Background of Early Christianity

William Reginald Halliday

 

Christian And Pagan Ritual

P319

But even in more fundamental things than ritual or art there is at least an apparent resemblance. For the idea of a Saviour is widely shared by pagans, and in Gnosticism, pagan as well as Christian, the Saviour descends from the home of God bringing a knowledge of salvation to His worshippers, whose souls through His grace may safely mount to God. The germ of such a divine intermediary indeed lies in the Platonic demiourgos who forms the link between the world of 'ideas' and the world of matter. An example of such a redeemer is Mithras, "demiourgos and lord of creation."

 

 

But as you say, a prophet sent to redeem ALL of humanity, no maybe not. Which shows the exclusionary policies of the Roman Catholic Church, and its subsidiaries like the Church of England, to proclaim Jesus Christ, and I've heard them, to be 'Their' redeemer, 'Their' saviour and only through 'Their' church 'May' you find salvation.

 

Total crap, the one we call Jesus came for everyone and you don't need a church or intermediary to believe in and live by his teachings. Thats not getting into the idea that Jesus did not exist. There was a man on whose teachings Jesus' are based and there was a man who caused social agitation and went to the cross for it, but neither of those men were called Jesus Christ, and neither of those men were born on the 25th December. A man called Jesus Christ, born on the winter solstice, 25th December who caused social uprising and went to the cross for it did not exist as told.

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3 hours ago, pi3141 said:

 

For evidence I was going to post this -

 

The Pagan Background of Early Christianity

William Reginald Halliday

 

Christian And Pagan Ritual

P319

But even in more fundamental things than ritual or art there is at least an apparent resemblance. For the idea of a Saviour is widely shared by pagans, and in Gnosticism, pagan as well as Christian, the Saviour descends from the home of God bringing a knowledge of salvation to His worshippers, whose souls through His grace may safely mount to God. The germ of such a divine intermediary indeed lies in the Platonic demiourgos who forms the link between the world of 'ideas' and the world of matter. An example of such a redeemer is Mithras, "demiourgos and lord of creation."

 

 

But as you say, a prophet sent to redeem ALL of humanity, no maybe not. Which shows the exclusionary policies of the Roman Catholic Church, and its subsidiaries like the Church of England, to proclaim Jesus Christ, and I've heard them, to be 'Their' redeemer, 'Their' saviour and only through 'Their' church 'May' you find salvation.

 

Total crap, the one we call Jesus came for everyone and you don't need a church or intermediary to believe in and live by his teachings. Thats not getting into the idea that Jesus did not exist. There was a man on whose teachings Jesus' are based and there was a man who caused social agitation and went to the cross for it, but neither of those men were called Jesus Christ, and neither of those men were born on the 25th December. A man called Jesus Christ, born on the winter solstice, 25th December who caused social uprising and went to the cross for it did not exist as told.

 

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Mithras dying for the sins of humanity, but I agree that Jesus Christ was not born at Christmas.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, RobSS said:

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Mithras dying for the sins of humanity, but I agree that Jesus Christ was not born at Christmas.

 

I agree there is no evidence of a Pagan Saviour dying for humanity's sins, I already agreed that in last post. 

 

He wasn't born at Christmas and Jesus was not his name.

 

Perhaps you could explain to me - why do Christians celebrate the date of their saviours birth on the 25th December?

 

Out of all the 365 days of the year why did they pick that one?

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6 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

I agree there is no evidence of a Pagan Saviour dying for humanity's sins, I already agreed that in last post. 

 

He wasn't born at Christmas and Jesus was not his name.

 

Perhaps you could explain to me - why do Christians celebrate the date of their saviours birth on the 25th December?

 

Out of all the 365 days of the year why did they pick that one?

 

His name is another issue we haven't discussed yet - that's a new thing and I'm not sure I agree now that it's mentioned, but unfortunately, part of the human condition is to follow everyone else, so if the parents adopted Christmas because of it becoming a fashionable trend in their time, the children, and then the children's children probably followed suit because their parents celebrated it, and here we are today. Same with Easter and celebrating birthdays. All Pagan customs.

 

The reason why so many Christians went along with 25/12 is because it coincides with the winter equinox 21/12, and Christ rising three gays later. Pagans celebrated Yule which also morphed into Christmas, etc.! It's not a very good reply... a bit rushed, but I have to pop out... back later and will have more time.

 

 

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