All electric cars by 2030?

[skitzorat]

Australia:

Tesla causes house fire, kills cat

 

If you can’t afford to pay for petrol, buy a $60,000 electric car:

 

A home has been partially destroyed and a family cat left dead after a fire ripped through a Sydney property overnight.

 

You’ll own no pets and you’ll be happy.

 

Early reports suggest the blaze could have been started by a charging Tesla, with the fire starting about 8pm Sunday in the attached garage of a house on Calabria Street in Prestons, southwest Sydney.

“The fire destroyed the garage and two vehicles inside. The fire has travelled through to the house and destroyed the kitchen,” a firefighter at the scene said, adding the rest of the house was saved but had smoke damage.

NSW Police told news.com.au the premises would be forensically examined Monday morning to determine the origin of the fire.

Teslas, a luxury electric vehicle, start from about $60,000 in Australia.

 

Last month a Tesla driving Indian foreign exchange student who worked for Victoria Police killed a woman who was exiting a tram. She blamed the autopilot.

 

Oil prices have skyrocketed after NATO’s expansion left Russia with no option but to invade the Ukraine. In response, globohomo leaders have urged motorists to buy electric vehicles to save money.

 

Australian Prime Minister caved to international pressure after the COP26 Climate Scam Summit in November last year, backflipping on his policy regarding electric vehicles, which his government will now subsidise.

 

The short battery life and long supply chains of electric car manufacture make the savings and purported environmental benefits entirely mythical.

 

However, nothing must be allowed to hinder the glorious future our masters have in store for us. A world of pod accomodation, bug burgers and completely safe self driving electric cars awaits us.

They’re just working out the teething issues.

[bamboozooka]

if they were that worried about the environment they'd be handing out solar panels like pcr tests.

[Brad the lad]

Electric cars have the life of a postage stamp. All cars will be replaced by Hydrogen just like the gas boilers. This electric crap is just about dragging out the control of it all  just like they do with everything else. Get them all on electric only to tell them that it's all going hydrogen. More BOLLOCKS!

 

One thing they ain't telling you is by December 2025 the ULEZ charge in London (and soon to be in a town near you) will be for everyone...... This also includes all electric vehicles.!!!

 

If they get their way it will extend to inside the M25 by the end of next year as well. Will anybody care enough to do anything about it? No because they will be far to occupied with the new Ukraine variant by that time.

[Captainlove]

39 minutes ago, bamboozooka said:

if they were that worried about the environment they'd be handing out solar panels like pcr tests.

Couldn't disagree with your statement. We all know its bollocks,there maybe a GSM on the way. Who knows.

[bamboozooka]

i could easily have an electric car the miles i do, but the outlay is just a green tax.

a 5yr old 40kw renault zoe battery owned that does 180 mile range would do me but at £18k is too much

my ev of choice would be a hyundai kona 64kw that does 270 mile range but 4yr old ones are £25k is too much

 

ive got a great big south facing roof begging to be filled with solar panels and with battery storage i could be off grid apart from winter.

the outlay for this £10k or so is a green tax  until it pays itself off.

 

charging your electric car up on the solar energy your system has generated is a nice idea but at a £30k - £40k outlay

theres still doubts on batteries, but does fast charging kill batteries compared to granny charging off a 13a socket?

 

then the gov will shaft you on toll roads and other taxes they will bring in as brad says.

[jedidiah]

If you are thinking of buying a Tesla or other electric car PLEASE watch this first – what could go wrong with sitting on a high voltage disaster waiting to happen? Remind me not to sit at the back

 

https://davidicke.com/2022/04/04/if-you-are-thinking-of-buying-a-tesla-or-other-electric-car-please-watch-this-first-what-could-go-wrong-with-sitting-on-a-high-voltage-disaster-waiting-to-happen-remind-me-not-to-sit-at-the-back/

[DarianF]

1 hour ago, jedidiah said:

If you are thinking of buying a Tesla or other electric car PLEASE watch this first – what could go wrong with sitting on a high voltage disaster waiting to happen? Remind me not to sit at the back

 

https://davidicke.com/2022/04/04/if-you-are-thinking-of-buying-a-tesla-or-other-electric-car-please-watch-this-first-what-could-go-wrong-with-sitting-on-a-high-voltage-disaster-waiting-to-happen-remind-me-not-to-sit-at-the-back/

 

Good point, but then again I could show you hundreds of videos of normal cars catching fire too, but we're not out there saying to people think twice before you buy a petrol car because it may explode.

[jedidiah]

47 minutes ago, DarianF said:

 

Good point, but then again I could show you hundreds of videos of normal cars catching fire too, but we're not out there saying to people think twice before you buy a petrol car because it may explode.

 

You just can’t help yourself can you?

[DarianF]

Just now, jedidiah said:

 

You just can’t help yourself can you?

 

What's the issue with the comment I made, exactly?

[DarianF]

6 hours ago, bamboozooka said:

if they were that worried about the environment they'd be handing out solar panels like pcr tests.

 

They would also be funding research to make solar cells more efficient. Example:

 

https://www.utoronto.ca/news/new-technique-makes-solar-cells-more-efficient

 

Check out Ted Sargent's work on infrared photovoltaics. As far as I understand it, it makes solar cells that work whether through cloud or direct sun. I'm probably vastly oversimplifying, but it's an interesting field.

Edited April 6, 2022 by DarianF

[DarianF]

20 minutes ago, jedidiah said:

 

You just can’t help yourself can you?

 

Do I need to be more specific, just for you? Okay. It's an interesting fact that an electric car could explode, but other cars could too. It would be good to know if - overall - electric cars have a greater risk of explosion and therefore harm to road users than other types of cars. If it turns out to be the case that the safety risks for electric cars is higher than standard cars, then that's a serious problem and it would be logical to warn people about the increased risks before they purchase an electric car. However if the risk is basically the same as any other car, then I don't think fear mongering about the extra dangers of electric cars is justified on a statistical basis. We should strive to make ALL CARS as safe as possible, at the end of the day. Would you like further elaboration on this matter? Does my comment still bother you? Because I'm happy to accommodate if I can.

[eddy64]

well a normal car fire is easy to put out, a lithium battery fire on the other hand is a nightmare afaik.

[DarianF]

Blood The dark side of Electric Vehicles:

 

 

[SimonTV]

https://www.saferemr.com/2014/07/shouldnt-hybrid-and-electric-cars-be-re.html

 

Hybrid & Electric Cars: Electromagnetic Radiation Risks
Hybrid and electric cars may be cancer-causing as they emit extremely low frequency (ELF) electromagnetic fields (EMF). Recent studies of the EMF emitted by these automobiles have claimed either that they pose a cancer risk for the vehicles' occupants or that they are safe.

[SimonTV]

 

[Golden Retriever]

How much of a fire risk are electric vehicles?

A lithium ion battery blaze is almost impossible to put out. We look at why that is, how fire services are handling it and what can be done to minimise risks

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/how-much-fire-risk-are-electric-vehicles

 

 

 

[Pinkiebee]

On 4/6/2022 at 10:05 AM, eddy64 said:

well a normal car fire is easy to put out, a lithium battery fire on the other hand is a nightmare afaik.

The fire and how likely that is, is only part of the equation

 

The main issue is the sudden and catastrophic release of stored energy and how much energy is stored to be suddenly released

 

Or in short the battery shorting or the petrol tank going up. Nether are particularly easy to put out. Batteries tend to burn slightly slower in the release and explode less. Either means your looking for a new car , and possibly a garage , house 

 

Petrol has a 100 times greater energy density than lithium per kg.  But then the batteries on electric cars weigh 500 kg so there is a considerable amount of stored energy in a fully charged battery.  Considerably more than a tank with a tenners worth in it

 

Petrol tanks dont catch fire on their own it needs something else to go badly wrong or arson . batteries it seems do and especially when being charged.

 

The standard advice from fire brigades is not to leave any battery charging unsupervised, particularly over night.

 

Which practicably no one. Including I suspect member of the fire brigade takes any notice of. And a fair few do catch fire. But it's a tiny % of all rechargeable batteries in the country and seems from news reports to almost always be the batteries on e scooters and ebikes that go up. which is probebly a quality control issue at the back street manufacture in Shanghai that made it

 

That any Tesla goes up, means that their quality control is suspect.  There is no good reason why they cant build batteries that never do that other than cost

[eddy64]

i thought a lot of ev vehicles had the batteries under the floor of the car, so if they don't have adequate protection there's a chance of damage if the car hits something whilst at speed.  i could be wrong though.

 

[kj35]

1 hour ago, Pinkiebee said:

The fire and how likely that is, is only part of the equation

 

The main issue is the sudden and catastrophic release of stored energy and how much energy is stored to be suddenly released

 

Or in short the battery shorting or the petrol tank going up. Nether are particularly easy to put out. Batteries tend to burn slightly slower in the release and explode less. Either means your looking for a new car , and possibly a garage , house 

 

Petrol has a 100 times greater energy density than lithium per kg.  But then the batteries on electric cars weigh 500 kg so there is a considerable amount of stored energy in a fully charged battery.  Considerably more than a tank with a tenners worth in it

 

Petrol tanks dont catch fire on their own it needs something else to go badly wrong or arson . batteries it seems do and especially when being charged.

 

The standard advice from fire brigades is not to leave any battery charging unsupervised, particularly over night.

 

Which practicably no one. Including I suspect member of the fire brigade takes any notice of. And a fair few do catch fire. But it's a tiny % of all rechargeable batteries in the country and seems from news reports to almost always be the batteries on e scooters and ebikes that go up. which is probebly a quality control issue at the back street manufacture in Shanghai that made it

 

That any Tesla goes up, means that their quality control is suspect.  There is no good reason why they cant build batteries that never do that other than cost

This isnt quite correct. Obviously petrol tanks aren't a feature of fully electric cars. Petrol will burn out and exhaust themselves whereas li ion fires can restart days or weeks after they were thought to have been extinguished.Thermal runaway in a lithium ion battery is a chemical exothermic fire the cause of which they 'theorise' is worsened by repetitive charging. But scientists still don't really know what triggers the reaction to commence. Short circuiting may be a feature but is not thought to be the main trigger.

 

Most Teslas for example are not yet old enough for the suspected deterioration in the cells that causes the exothermic reaction to begin. Chopping batteries in back street garages isnt yet a feature of most electric cars but will worsen as they become more prevalent. E scooters,  laptops etc all use li ion in various sizes. Passenger planes will only allow the very smallest batteries in the cargo hold as fires have started which clearly has potentially devastating consequences for the plane.

 

As for your final point

 

'That any Tesla goes up, means that their quality control is suspect.  There is no good reason why they cant build batteries that never do that other than cost' 

 

As already well documented the cause of these battery fires is still very unclear and therefore until the science behind the inception hazard is understood no amount of throwing cash at a battery build will solve the current situation.

Edited April 15, 2022 by kj35

[Pinkiebee]

2 minutes ago, kj35 said:

This isnt quite correct. Obviously petrol tanks aren't a feature of fully electric cars. Petrol will burn out and exhaust themselves whereas li ion fires can restart days or weeks after they were thought to have been extinguished.Thermal runaway in a lithium ion battery is a chemical exothermic fire the cause of which they 'theorise' is worsened by repetitive charging. But scientists still don't really know what triggers the reaction to commence. Short circuiting may be a feature but is not thought to be the main trigger.

 

Most Teslas for example are not yet old enough for the suspected deterioration in the cells that causes the exothermic reaction to begin. Chopping batteries in back street garages isnt yet a feature of most electric cars but will worsen as they become more prevalent. E scooters,  laptops etc all use li ion in various sizes. Passenger planes will only allow the very smallest batteries in the cargo hold as fires have started which clearly has potentially devastating consequences for the plane.

 

As for your final point

 

'That any Tesla goes up, means that their quality control is suspect.  There is no good reason why they cant build batteries that never do that other than cost' 

 

As already well documented the cause of these battery fires is still very unclear and therefore until the science behind the inception hazard is understood no amount of throwing cash at a battery build will solve the current situation.

The cause of the battery fires is very clear. It's the degradation of the insulation over time. Why the insulation degrades may be less clear or poor design of insulation/ quality control in assembly

 

I've had a considerable number of lithium batteries over the last 25 years and precisely non of them have set fire nor have any of the batteries of anyone I know.

 

It's a theoretic possibility not a likely out come at least not from branded batteries ebay specials may carry a greater risk 

 

I'm not convinced that 40 gallons of petrol going up is less of a problem to life limb and property than a Tesla battery to be honest

 

How likely each is to happen is a bit hard to calculate . You could always cover it with fire blankets before bed

[kj35]

A fire blanket will do absolutely nothing in a lithium ion fire as oxygen is not needed in an exothermic chemical reaction thermal runaway fire. You may be confusing lithium metal batteries with li ion. Several things are postulated as causes for li ion fires, manufacturing defects, component defect, overcharging etc .but no real cause is pinpointed in the well made well built battery. Yet they still have fires. The very fact that you suggest a fire blanket or think that 40 gallons of petrol which will eventually burn itself out compared to a thermal runaway fire in a tesla battery which could burn or reignite for weeks after shows a lack of understanding this topic. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by kj35

[Pinkiebee]

2 hours ago, kj35 said:

A fire blanket will do absolutely nothing in a lithium ion fire as oxygen is not needed in an exothermic chemical reaction thermal runaway fire. You may be confusing lithium metal batteries with li ion. Several things are postulated as causes for li ion fires, manufacturing defects, component defect, overcharging etc .but no real cause is pinpointed in the well made well built battery. Yet they still have fires. The very fact that you suggest a fire blanket or think that 40 gallons of petrol which will eventually burn itself out compared to a thermal runaway fire in a tesla battery which could burn or reignite for weeks after shows a lack of understanding this topic. 

It doesnt really matter if it reignited 6 weeks later it wont be parked in my drive by that time .

 

Lithium is a metal!  what distinction are you making

 

The fire blanket was a joke. The comparison with the considerably more explosive 40 gallons of petrol was not

 

Nether are a good idea if your in them. Near them or parked in your garage 

 

In order to progress this point you need to show that electric cars are inherently more like to go up than petrol. Which may be true. I dont know and never I suspect do you

[bamboozooka]

 

[kj35]

22 minutes ago, Pinkiebee said:

It doesnt really matter if it reignited 6 weeks later it wont be parked in my drive by that time .

It matters to the fire brigade and the salvage yards

22 minutes ago, Pinkiebee said:

 

Lithium is a metal!  what distinction are you making

Lithium ion is a totally different chemical reaction 

22 minutes ago, Pinkiebee said:

 

The fire blanket was a joke.

A total joke.

22 minutes ago, Pinkiebee said:

 

 

 

The comparison with the considerably more explosive 40 gallons of petrol was not

Initially potentially. 

22 minutes ago, Pinkiebee said:

 

Nether are a good idea if your in them. Near them or parked in your garage 

Agreed

22 minutes ago, Pinkiebee said:

 

In order to progress this point you need to show that electric cars are inherently more like to go up than petrol. Which may be true. I dont know and never I suspect do you

I don't actially 'need' to do anything of the sort. I corrected your misassumptions. Petrol needs an ignition source. The thing that is scary about lithium ion batteries, especially when they start being produced at scale is their propensity to spontaneously combust with no obvious source.

Edited April 15, 2022 by kj35

[Pinkiebee]

Just now, kj35 said:

It matters to the fire brigade and the salvage yards

Lithium ion is a totally different chemical reaction 

A total joke.

Initially potentially. 

Agreed

I don't actially need to do anything of the sort. I corrected your misassumptions. Petrol needs an ignition source. The thing that is scary about lithium ion batteries, especially when they start being produced at scale is their propensity to spontaneously combust with no obvious source.

What do you mean initially.  Petrol has an energy density 100 x lithium per kg 

 

40 gallons is about 200kg that's a little less than half the weight of a battery which makes it 50 times more explosive. I know which I'd sooner be closer to