Direct Democracy - The development of a working model.

[Ween Dwijler]

7 hours ago, Ethel said:

 

Thanks, I will.

 

There is absolutely no way democracy can work until all human beings have reached vastly higher levels of consciousness. Nobody who wants to 'lead' a country is fit to do so. The only people whom would be fit to occupy positions of power wouldn't want them.

 

The only thing which can or will work for our benefit and create absolute peace both individually and collectively will be to bring every human being up to a level of consciousness whereby the only leadership they have any interest in would be their own, over their own life. People who are standing in their own personal power have no need of crime, war or conflict. Based on where we are now, this could be thousands of years away. Putting a vote in the hands of the collective as they currently are is like giving a chainsaw to a toddler. I cannot believe after the events of the past two years that there is anyone left in this forum who thinks that giving democracy to the average person is in any way a good idea. What the actual fuck?

 

Our current political system in the Western world is an absolute joke. It does for freedom what McDonald's does for health. Nobody has any clue what absolute freedom of mind, body and spirit is.

 

Those are my thoughts on democracy. But this man put it better:

 

 

Thanks, Ethel. I see that good old Bhagwan still has his attraction for some. And although enough of what he was saying at the time makes a lot of sense, it doesn't take away the fact that he developed into a parasite of his followers, amassing 94 Roll's Royces, some private jets etc. in the process. Another prime example of why we should shy away from leaders, always.

 

I can agree with most of what you say. Thousands of years is a long time, what will we do in the mean time? Just let it run its course, or start and keep working on our mutual development towards that moment of enlightment? Doing nothing will not change anything, obviously.

 

DD has worked for several centuries in ancient Athens. It was not perfect, it was reformed a couple of times, but ended not because it was flawed but because of an invasion and war. The Athenian DD model was being censored until the 19th century. Only since then it slowly made way into the collective mind again. Since the Athenian DD we've travelled 2 millennia, and the history of that can be used to adapt the model to modern times. We go and learn.

 

There were times people said that human's flying was absolutely impossible. And they were right. Instead we invented technology to help us fly. Today, there are mini packs for one person to fly around. It's open to debate if that development was truly beneficial for man kind (I have strong doubts about it), but it shows we are capable of extra ordinary things, including genocide, nuclear weapons, but also massive revolutions to change the systems we're living in.

 

So, most of what you point out is true, but does that mean we shouldn't try to improve on it? Lay down and die? Because the latter is exactly what the tyrants want you to do. You really want to give them the satisfaction of that victory?

[Ween Dwijler]

8 hours ago, Pierre-Luc said:

This topic is interesting. To be honest i read the first 2 or 3 pages entirely. Diagonal reading for the next few pages...and skipped forward looking quickly at what it appear to me to be the same kind of things. Without any intentions to be rude or diminishing anyone knowledge and view about what our world should look like. I am delighted to see that people really want to improve themselves and the ways we are use to do many things. The things that seem to bored me rapidly is that many times the same words were coming back over and over again. There seem to be many ideas on how it can quickly become corrupt whatever the system. I even saw we need to have a “bill for human rights”. We don't need any bills to have rights. period...the same kind of way of thinking seem to come back, which is -we need a system and "levels" of organizations to be implement at levels. Levels and system does not sound like community to me. It seem to me that we have to remember that we should reeducate ourselves to be aware and respect our human rights... we all have those rights at birth and we need to learn to rely upon ourselves to defend it if required. Trying to find a model here and there seem weird to me. It is very simple. My freedom stop when it impact on the freedom of others. Everything that come after are conveniences that give us the opportunity to have our bodily needs met in a more efficient and easier way. That should allow and help us to relief the stress that we are use to feel and help us putting our human qualities at the forefronts.

I like the knowledge i have. The question is, how i would want to use it? To show to the world how much i have learn about so much things and how I KNOW HOW IT works(guilty of it myself), or to use it to expand my own habilities to see in a more clear and accurate way the things i already know about my surrounding and myself. Also trying to avoid falling in the same paterns that lead us were we are now.

We will have at first to mature emotionnaly and learn to spot some behaviors in some individuals and on ourselves that we have learned to tolerate or underminded the potential impacts. We need to know how we should grow as individuals before trying to fix infrastructures that are either already known to exist or already in place. But just to be clear, i have to work on myself on a daily basis to be able to see things with more clarity. For...where do we go from now?... in the current state of the world....i really dont know. Stopping all of this should be the first step. But it need to be even worst apparently.

All good points you've made, P-L. In answer to your last question "Where do we go from now?" I can give you my take on it, which is certainly not the only one!

 

I think we should move forwards towards DD, not blindly, but with firm well placed steps and eyes wide open. Not ignoring any of the dangers that lure on that path, but acknowledging their existence and deal with it before moving on. The past is our teacher of which we can learn what works and what doesn't. There are clearly very clever and good thinkers here that can take the lead in the process. And with lead I don't mean leading by decree or mandate, but by example and guidance. Yes, we will make mistakes. It is our task to recognize them, listen to others if they point them out, learn the lessons of it, improve and move on.

 

I've spent over 45 years sailing the oceans (man, I miss it and will return soon) in all kinds of vessels. The oceans are raw nature and not kind to those ignoring or underestimating its majestic power. So, you prepare yourself, ask yourself "If this, what do I do?", try to foresee possible problems and make plans for how to deal with it. If the shit hits the fan, you know what to do. You will have no fear, because fear is born out of not knowing how to react on a threat. No fear means you can think clearly. And sometimes an unexpected thing happens, you have only little time to do the right thing or die. No time to have fear. Act or die. But because you're mentally prepared and relatively calm, most likely you will react the right way and fix the problem. And yes, your action might not work and you die. It happens. Life is never without risk, no matter how many insurances we buy. But what is better? Living life to the fullest and die in the process, or hide behind the curtains in fear and die in agony?

 

We're all in the same boat now. I also have felt the anxiety and paralizing fear this shit storm creates within peoples minds. I think nobody is immune for such massive and powerful propaganda and mind rape. It's violent, devious, evil and dark. However, the moment I made the decision "F this, I will fight it as good as I can!" all that disappeared.

 

What we need is a positive goal, something good to work towards to. Nothing is impossible, as humanity has proven so often (for the good AND the bad). If we can imagine it, it can be done. If we know what to do and how to do it, the fear will evaporate and the people will rise. This is known among the tyrants, and why they constantly keep pounding at the masses minds and even increase their efforts. But when the ginny is out of the bottle, it's over for them.

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ween Dwijler
corrections

[Ween Dwijler]

Remember 5th of June, 1989 - Tiananmen Square, Beijing, China? No freedom without risks. Yes, he might have been arrested later on and tortured to death. No freedom without sacrifices. You want freedom? Take it, don't wait for someone to give it to you. That will never happen.

 

It's freedom we want, it's freedom we will get!

 

 

[Sheepy]

You seem to be at standstill ween, maybe they are out in the local town centres handing out DD leaflets. 

[Ween Dwijler]

18 minutes ago, Sheepy said:

You seem to be at standstill ween, maybe they are out in the local town centres handing out DD leaflets. 

Don't worry. Building......

 

Let them hand out their leaflets. It would be the same as the cheap Chinese copies of Louis Vuitton. They don't last very long. Or better than what we have here. And that is good.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ween Dwijler

[Diesel]

The Money System explained from The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Diesel

[Ween Dwijler]

48 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The Money System explained from The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist

Better read up on monetary systems, money and its history, banks, inflation first. There are a lot of opinions about it, but only one is correct. There is only one real kind of money, which one do you think that is and why? Hint, if you never lived in Asia your answer is probably wrong.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetary_system

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation

[Ethel]

7 hours ago, Ween Dwijler said:

Thanks, Ethel. I see that good old Bhagwan still has his attraction for some. And although enough of what he was saying at the time makes a lot of sense, it doesn't take away the fact that he developed into a parasite of his followers, amassing 94 Roll's Royces, some private jets etc. in the process. Another prime example of why we should shy away from leaders, always.

 

I can agree with most of what you say. Thousands of years is a long time, what will we do in the mean time? Just let it run its course, or start and keep working on our mutual development towards that moment of enlightment? Doing nothing will not change anything, obviously.

 

DD has worked for several centuries in ancient Athens. It was not perfect, it was reformed a couple of times, but ended not because it was flawed but because of an invasion and war. The Athenian DD model was being censored until the 19th century. Only since then it slowly made way into the collective mind again. Since the Athenian DD we've travelled 2 millennia, and the history of that can be used to adapt the model to modern times. We go and learn.

 

There were times people said that human's flying was absolutely impossible. And they were right. Instead we invented technology to help us fly. Today, there are mini packs for one person to fly around. It's open to debate if that development was truly beneficial for man kind (I have strong doubts about it), but it shows we are capable of extra ordinary things, including genocide, nuclear weapons, but also massive revolutions to change the systems we're living in.

 

So, most of what you point out is true, but does that mean we shouldn't try to improve on it? Lay down and die? Because the latter is exactly what the tyrants want you to do. You really want to give them the satisfaction of that victory?

 

I'm not an Osho supporter, I just like that quote. I can embrace teachings of a spiritual teacher without developing an attachment to them, that is a double edged sword.

 

As for what we should do, I am in favour of just dismantling the system we have and seeing what happens. I can see no other way any more. This system doesn't represent humanity's best interests, it needs to end. People will evolve because evolution is unavoidable. I know the scenario I describe sounds unappealing, but as long as we maintain a system which bears even the slightest resemblance to what we currently have, it will just provide an open door for yet more opportunists who place their own personal gain before the best interests of humanity as a whole. 

 

Most of humanity are engaged in falsehood - how could they make direct democracy work?

 

EDIT: My idea of paradise would look something like 'Avatar'. Nature based, simple, at one with nature. That is what I would have, if I could.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ethel
adding something

[Diesel]

Money only exists because of debt. Debt is a form of slavery. For a true FREEDOM and EQUALITY we need to rid ourselves of money.

 

"Whenever a bank makes a loan, it simultaneously creates a matching deposit in the borrower’s bank account, thereby creating new money."

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy.pdf

 

 

[Ween Dwijler]

46 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Money only exists because of debt. Debt is a form of slavery. For a true FREEDOM and EQUALITY we need to rid ourselves of money.

 

"Whenever a bank makes a loan, it simultaneously creates a matching deposit in the borrower’s bank account, thereby creating new money."

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy.pdf

 

 

Why don't you first check out the links I gave before? This is going to be a vicious circle otherwise. Try to approach it in a more scientific way, not emotional. Money is money, nothing emotional in it.

[Ween Dwijler]

50 minutes ago, Ethel said:

As for what we should do, I am in favour of just dismantling the system we have and seeing what happens.

 

Most of humanity are engaged in falsehood - how could they make direct democracy work?

 

EDIT: My idea of paradise would look something like 'Avatar'. Nature based, simple, at one with nature. That is what I would have, if I could.

Dismantling and wait and see will only lead to the next tyranny. It's been tried before, and failed. Too many examples to mention here. Look it up.

 

The people of today are the result of decades of programming by tyrants. Those who are willing to take the lead and guidance on them, can see to it that they get deprogrammed. It will not happen overnight though. The DD seems to be the only reasonable option to get out of this shit show. Why not try it?

 

We already live in a paradise, but to blind to see. Avatar is a movie, it doesn't exist in reality. To get an idea what it really is to live one with nature, watch some good wildlife documentaries. It's not as romantic as you think it is. But if you really want it, just start doing it. Nobody stops you from doing it. You can do it, just like anybody else.

[Ethel]

16 minutes ago, Ween Dwijler said:

Dismantling and wait and see will only lead to the next tyranny. It's been tried before, and failed. Too many examples to mention here. Look it up.

 

Hmm, how about no? You're the one making the argument, so you can provide me with examples, yes?

 

16 minutes ago, Ween Dwijler said:

The people of today are the result of decades of programming by tyrants. Those who are willing to take the lead and guidance on them, can see to it that they get deprogrammed. It will not happen overnight though. The DD seems to be the only reasonable option to get out of this shit show. Why not try it?

 

'Deprogramming' is a double edged sword. You'll realize, of course, that many with the 'woke' mentality, and many who support Covid restrictions are arguing for folks like us, who listen to people like David Icke, to be 'deprogrammed'. So this won't work. The person would have to, on some level, want to be deprogrammed, like Cathy O'Brien was, after her years as an MK Ultra slave. She possessed enough awareness to consent to being deprogrammed, presumably. What do you do if someone is adamant that Woke, climate change fearmongering, Convid fearmongering etc are all 'good' and 'true'? Surely you don't want to force deprogramming on people? There isn't necessarily only one way out of this shit show; there may be many options. Anything which resembles our current system is dubious at best...

 

16 minutes ago, Ween Dwijler said:

We already live in a paradise, but to blind to see. Avatar is a movie, it doesn't exist in reality. To get an idea what it really is to live one with nature, watch some good wildlife documentaries. It's not as romantic as you think it is. But if you really want it, just start doing it. Nobody stops you from doing it. You can do it, just like anybody else.

 

Ah yes, the 'nature is brutal' argument. Sorry, no. Nothing in nature has malice, nothing in nature has ego. All animals are pre-self, so their 'brutality' is nothing more than survival, and therefore has no malice.

 

And no, I can't just do it. D'you know why? Lets say I go out to a forest and decide to live a back to basics life, eating plants and tree bark, sitting watching the squirrels. As soon as I attempt to build any kind of shelter, or set up home on any land whatsoever, someone from this system can come along and start interfering into what I'm doing. Start issuing threats, start getting the plods to come along and stick their big noses in. You know it's true, I know it's true. I've seen the way the police and others treat homeless people. They are resented, if not hated - because they are the closest thing we have to people that are beyond "the system".

 

People have never represented my best interests, not even my own parents. I have never thrived as part of this system. It has knocked the stuffing out of me. I have no reason to believe that DD would give me any better a life than this system. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ethel
typo

[Ween Dwijler]

26 minutes ago, Ethel said:

 

Hmm, how about no? You're the one making the argument, so you can provide me with examples, yes?

 

 

'Deprogramming' is a double edged sword. You'll realize, of course, that many with the 'woke' mentality, and many who support Covid restrictions are arguing for folks like us, who listen to people like David Icke, to be 'deprogrammed'. So this won't work. The person would have to, on some level, want to be deprogrammed, like Cathy O'Brien was, after her years and an MK Ultra slave. She possessed enough awareness to consent to being deprogrammed, presumably. What do you do if someone is adamant that Woke, climate change fearmongering, Convid fearmongering etc are all 'good' and 'true'? Surely you don't want to force deprogramming on people? There isn't necessarily only one way out of this shit show; there may be many options. Anything which resembles our current system is dubious at best...

 

 

Ah yes, the 'nature is brutal' argument. Sorry, no. Nothing in nature has malice, nothing in nature has ego. All animals are pre-self, so their 'brutality' is nothing more than survival, and therefore has no malice.

 

And no, I can't just do it. D'you know why? Lets say I go out to a forest and decide to live a back to basics life, eating plants and tree bark, sitting watching the squirrels. As soon as I attempt to build any kind of shelter, or set up home on any land whatsoever, someone from this system can come along and start interfering into what I'm doing. Start issuing threats, start getting the plods to come along and stick their big noses in. You know it's true, I know it's true. I've seen the way the police and others treat homeless people. They are resented, if not hated - because they are the closest thing we have to people that are beyond "the system".

 

People have never represented my best interests, not even my own parents. I have never thrived as part of this system. It has knocked the stuffing out of me. I have no reason to believe that DD would give me any better a life than this system. 

As examples you could take Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan......all good examples of an attempt to dismantle the system with tyranny as result.

 

For the rest, you're entitled to your believes, whatever they are. In the mean time, I live close to nature, and nobody bothers me in that. So now and then a cobra passes by that lives in the back of my land, and we give each other the room to live. It takes care of the other snakes here. The day it is hungry and in a bad mood could be my last one, malice or not, that's the reality of living close to nature. Do you know how much time you have to get to the hospital for anti-serum? Around 1 hour with a spitting cobra (they bite too!) and 15 minutes if it's a king cobra.

 

And by the way, living in the forest and living of plants and bark, will leave you little time to sit and watch the squirrels. You'll be the largest part of your day occupied with fouraging for food. Let alone that you need to know your stuff, or you'll probably won't survive long in the forest. One red berry looks like the other, but the one can kill you within hours, the other is good but doesn't taste that nice. Just that you know.

 

I never said nature is brutal, so don't put words in my mouth.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ween Dwijler

[Ween Dwijler]

1 hour ago, Ethel said:

'Deprogramming' is a double edged sword. You'll realize, of course, that many with the 'woke' mentality, and many who support Covid restrictions are arguing for folks like us, who listen to people like David Icke, to be 'deprogrammed'. So this won't work. The person would have to, on some level, want to be deprogrammed, like Cathy O'Brien was, after her years as an MK Ultra slave. She possessed enough awareness to consent to being deprogrammed, presumably. What do you do if someone is adamant that Woke, climate change fearmongering, Convid fearmongering etc are all 'good' and 'true'? Surely you don't want to force deprogramming on people? There isn't necessarily only one way out of this shit show; there may be many options. Anything which resembles our current system is dubious at best...

This one I wanted to address separately.

 

Deprogramming can be done the same way as the tyrants programmed the masses. Except this time, the messages are representing the truth and aimed to counter the damage done by the tyrannical propaganda.

 

I would like to hear from you which other options you think are available as a way out of this shit show. Who knows, maybe you have thought of something nobody else ever thought about it. It could be the ultimate "A ha" solution. So, again, don't hold back and tell us what you have in mind on that.

[Ethel]

43 minutes ago, Ween Dwijler said:

I would like to hear from you which other options you think are available as a way out of this shit show. Who knows, maybe you have thought of something nobody else ever thought about it. It could be the ultimate "A ha" solution. So, again, don't hold back and tell us what you have in mind on that.

 

Okay, well firstly there may be an infinite number of possibilities as regards to how we create human societies, but I don't pretend to have access to all of them. Voluntaryism is one such possibility, but even then there is form, structure and labels, which strengthen the ego, which slow down spiritual development.

 

To go back to what I was saying before, I am in favor of completely dismantling the system we have and seeing what happens when we replace it with nothing. This would be a 'sink or swim' kind of scenario. Would there be suffering? Yes - but the 'society' we have is full of suffering, and I see no evidence to suggest that there is less suffering in the world we currently have than there would be in a society which has no structure whatsoever. I would say the society we do have perpetuates suffering, and is designed to. In Western society, for example, we have embraced the worst aspects of individualism, i.e. "survival of the fittest", social Darwinism, "dog eat dog", as well as the worst aspects of collectivism, i.e. the hive mind, groupthink, mass manipulation and tribalism.

 

I don't have the ultimate "A-ha" solution, for sure. Nor would I ever claim to. But on a personal level, I would be more than willing to take my chances in a leaderless, non-governmental world. There has to come a point at which freedom is valued more than appeasing people's fears. At the moment, our government are viewed by most, unconsciously, as ersatz Mummy and Daddy figures. That's very sad.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ethel

[Ween Dwijler]

26 minutes ago, Ethel said:

To go back to what I was saying before, I am in favor of completely dismantling the system we have and seeing what happens when we replace it with nothing. This would be a 'sink or swim' kind of scenario. Would there be suffering? Yes - but the 'society' we have is full of suffering, and I see no evidence to suggest that there is less suffering in the world we currently have than there would be in a society which has no structure whatsoever. I would say the society we do have perpetuates suffering, and is designed to. In Western society, for example, we have embraced the worst aspects of individualism, i.e. "survival of the fittest", social Darwinism, "dog eat dog", as well as the worst aspects of collectivism, i.e. the hive mind, groupthink, mass manipulation and tribalism.

So, if I understand you correctly, you suggest to go from one society of suffering straight into another society of suffering? The only difference being the new one without leaders or governments? I guess that would mean also no police, no army, no welfare, no social services, no hospitals, no banks or ATM, no uniform money system and lots more no have?

 

What would you do in the following situation in that case?

You established yourself in a nice piece of forrest, living of plants, bark and mushrooms (assuming you can), build yourself a nice little cabin to live in. One day, a couple of guys walk into your little domain, they rape and beat you up, and after chase you out of your domain and take possession of your domain.

 

Don't you think that in such society without leadership, government or any kind of guidance, the "survival of the fittest", social Darwinism or "dog eat dog" would immediately take the upper hand? Or just as bad, the hive mind, groupthink and tribalism would prevail? Even worse, the combination of it all since there is no guidance at all?

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ween Dwijler

[Ethel]

26 minutes ago, Ween Dwijler said:

So, if I understand you correctly, you suggest to go from one society of suffering straight into another society of suffering? The only difference being the new one without leaders or governments?

 

Not necessarily. The suffering isn't really the key feature for me, the key feature for me is Freedom. 

 

26 minutes ago, Ween Dwijler said:

Don't you think that in such society without leadership, government or any kind of guidance, the "survival of the fittest", social Darwinism or "dog eat dog" would immediately take the upper hand? Or just as bad, the hive mind, groupthink and tribalism would prevail? Even worse, the combination of it all since there is no guidance at all?

 

You say 'guidance', I say imposition. You may be right in asserting that I cannot prove that a leaderless, unstructured society would be better for humanity, but I am equally right in asserting that you cannot prove that Direct Democracy would not result in yet another, as you put it "shitshow".

 

Your massive mistake is believing that there is anyone fit to occupy any position of any leadership role, authority figure etc. As I said, if you found a person with enough awareness, compassion and empathy to make a success of that role, they wouldn't want it, because they would know deep down that every human is meant to be sovereign over their own life.

 

It seems to me that you believe the kind of society I am describing would lead to greater abuses of "power". It is possible, but the scenario I describe is an unknown quantity. I do not accept the examples you provided, because they don't fit the description of what I am talking about.

 

Direct Democracy, on the other hand, would have some resemblance, albeit only slightly, to what we currently have. We have a phoney, watered down democracy, albeit in a two party state in which both parties are reading from the same hymn sheet on virtually everything, and there are still referendums, occasionally. And what has this insistence on democracy wrought, exactly? You tell me.

 

You tell me who is fit to "lead" us, and tell us what's right for us?

 

Whilst you're at it, tell me how you could possibly have any faith in the masses ability to discern "good leaders", after the events of the past two years.

 

There is only one way I can think of that Direct Democracy would work, and it would be if the media ceased to exist, so that they were no longer able to poison people's consciousness any longer. Consider the likelihood of such a scenario.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ethel
adding something

[Ween Dwijler]

9 minutes ago, Ethel said:

 

Not necessarily. The suffering isn't really the key feature for me, the key feature for me is Freedom. 

 

 

You say 'guidance', I say imposition. You may be right in asserting that I cannot prove that a leaderless, unstructured society would be better for humanity, but I am equally right in asserting that you cannot prove that Direct Democracy would not result in yet another, as you put it "shitshow".

 

Your massive mistake is believing that there is anyone fit to occupy any position of any leadership role, authority figure etc. As I said, if you found a person with enough awareness, compassion and empathy to make a success of that role, they wouldn't want it, because they would know deep down that every human is meant to be sovereign over their own life.

 

It seems to me that you believe the kind of society I am describing would lead to greater abuses of "power". It is possible, but the scenario I describe is an unknown quantity. I do not accept that examples you provided, because they don't fit the description of what I am talking about.

 

Direct Democracy, on the other hand, would have some resemblance, albeit only slightly, to what we currently have. We have a phoney, watered down democracy, albeit in a two party state in which both parties are reading from the same hymn sheet on virtually everything, and there are still referendums, occasionally. And what has this insistence on democracy wrought, exactly? You tell me.

 

You tell me who is fit to "lead" us, and tell us what's right for us?

 

Whilst you're at it, tell me how you could possibly have any faith in the masses ability to discern "good leaders", after the events of the past two years.

 

There is only one way I can think of that Direct Democracy would work, and it would be if the media ceased to exist, so that they were no longer able to poison people's consciousness any longer. Consider the likelihood of such a scenario.

I suggest you read better what I've written so far, because there is in my opinion not a single connection in your answers to my questions. You make a lot of assumptions, not based upon what I write but what you want to think. And, that's ok. You're free to do that. But it makes a discussion or conversation about these subjects impossible.

 

So, lets agree to disagree.

[kilowon]

46 minutes ago, Ween Dwijler said:

 

 

What would you do in the following situation in that case?

You established yourself in a nice piece of forrest, living of plants, bark and mushrooms (assuming you can), build yourself a nice little cabin to live in. One day, a couple of guys walk into your little domain, they rape and beat you up, and after chase you out of your domain and take possession of your domain.

 

 

To be fair, we already have this now, and worse.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Ethel said:

You tell me who is fit to "lead" us

 

There is a 'fix' for that .... 

 

• Corporations do not have human rights and are subservient to real people
• There are no shareholders - 
• All companies are totally liable for all actions and those who 'create' within those companies are also liable
• If you create something which harms another then you are liable
• No one has a 'right' to cover this realm via satellites
• Communities are local eg: 10K people or so
• All communities protect each within the community - allow no harm
• One rep from each
• Anyone who wants to be a rep, is not allowed (reps are proposed by the community .... thus are known to the group)
• Reps are voted into service by the community and serve for two years (given the same income they had before)
• MRI scans can determine if a person has empathy or not - if not they cannot serve and are removed (cost currently is about £300 per mobile scan which can do 12 per day)
• All 'money' is a form of barter thus the only 'real' money is time - the 'time' each has within this realm - spend it wisely or don't, that is an individuals choice
• Anything that anyone considers payment, is 'money' as long as it is agreed by the other party
• There are no military forces - all people have the right to bear arms (only governments require wars)
• .... I could go on but for now that is enough

 

One of the base problems is that people do not comprehend that there are 'people' who are NOT like them (people always conceive that 'others' are the same - Do you dream in the 3rd person?).

That there are 'people' without empathy, remorse, guilt or compassion .... who pretend to have these 'human' qualities but do not!

If this simple fact is not addressed then .... nothing changes.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Ethel said:

There is only one way I can think of that Direct Democracy would work, and it would be if the media ceased to exist, so that they were no longer able to poison people's consciousness any longer. Consider the likelihood of such a scenario.

The media are owned as we know by the elite. They are the elite because they have the money and assets. Only when we give up our pursuit of material will we see true change and pursue a more spiritually fulfilling existence. Then true leaders will emerge. Then an independent media and true reporting will happen. I am interested in what you said about anarchy and if we were more spiritually advanced its the pure form of living. However we are not at that stage yet, so a DD seems the best solution to me, alongside dealing with the other problems that cause civilisations to fail as our current one is - MONEY,FREEDOM OF INFORMATION, RELIGION, LAW, ENERGY to name a few

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, ink said:

That there are 'people' without empathy, remorse, guilt or compassion .... who pretend to have these 'human' qualities but do not!

 

 

 

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides
By the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men"

Ezekiel 25:17

No one really knows what to do about psychopaths, its been a problem throughout history

[Sheepy]

DD isn't like an NHS worker where it can be forced in your arm like a covid jab, it is an offer of a way out. There is no praying involved your religion is your own business. One vote one person. So psychopaths still only have one vote.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Sheepy

[Ween Dwijler]

During research I found this video that tells the story of Garry Davis and his World Citizenship movement.

 

 

[Ween Dwijler]

9 hours ago, ink said:

 

There is a 'fix' for that .... 

 

• Corporations do not have human rights and are subservient to real people
• There are no shareholders - 
• All companies are totally liable for all actions and those who 'create' within those companies are also liable
• If you create something which harms another then you are liable
• No one has a 'right' to cover this realm via satellites
• Communities are local eg: 10K people or so
• All communities protect each within the community - allow no harm
• One rep from each
• Anyone who wants to be a rep, is not allowed (reps are proposed by the community .... thus are known to the group)
• Reps are voted into service by the community and serve for two years (given the same income they had before)
• MRI scans can determine if a person has empathy or not - if not they cannot serve and are removed (cost currently is about £300 per mobile scan which can do 12 per day)
• All 'money' is a form of barter thus the only 'real' money is time - the 'time' each has within this realm - spend it wisely or don't, that is an individuals choice
• Anything that anyone considers payment, is 'money' as long as it is agreed by the other party
• There are no military forces - all people have the right to bear arms (only governments require wars)
• .... I could go on but for now that is enough

 

One of the base problems is that people do not comprehend that there are 'people' who are NOT like them (people always conceive that 'others' are the same - Do you dream in the 3rd person?).

That there are 'people' without empathy, remorse, guilt or compassion .... who pretend to have these 'human' qualities but do not!

If this simple fact is not addressed then .... nothing changes.

A lot of that makes good sense. But also, as I perceive it, it must be implemented on a global level. Otherwise it will be overrun by predator states.

 

There is a lot of good thinking going on here already. I have the idea that we're stimulating each other to get the best out of ourselves this way. Which is very positive and defies the opinion of some people that there is no hope for the future. Just these couple of days pondering about this, brainstorming, discussing and exchanging possible solutions proofs the opposite.

 

@inkhas proven himself to be a magician, pulling one after the other white rabbit out of his high hat. A lot of sensible suggestions were already made by him, and I've the feeling the dam is broken now and much more will follow. Thanks for that. @Dieselalso shows he's breaking his cojones to get his head wrapped around things to contribute ideas. So far the feathers.

 

What I think we should try to avoid is, that at some point we can't see the forrest through the trees anymore. For that reason we should come up with some framework that will guide us through this process. My idea is as follows;

 

Assuming we intend this system to be a worldwide one, and eventually would comprise all citizens of the world, and all present countries and states, the next steps can be followed;

 

1. Write a constitution for it

2. Design the DD system with all in and outs

3. Work out a practical "government" system based on the DD system

4. Declare independence

5. Get the word out everywhere

 

1 & 2 are at some point intertwined, 3 can follow out of 1 & 2, 4 is the result of the concreteness of 1, 2 & 3, and 5 is the work in the real world to attract citizens that align themselves with it. We should be led by the principle of KISS (Keep It Stupid Simple), but be comprehensive enough to exclude as much failures from the past as possible. It is all too easy to overcomplicate things, which would do us no good in the end.

 

@ink Some of your suggestions belong in 1 and some in 2 or both at the same time, to illustrate that thought.

 

That's my take on it for now.

 

Thank you all.