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Direct Democracy - The development of a working model.


Ween Dwijler
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5 minutes ago, Sheepy said:

I would choose an impartial body to oversee each vote, not that most people wouldn't know for themselves anyway. Just like we spent years explaining before the EU referendum it wouldn't be easy and the outcome would mean the EU and the Westminster party would come after you at every opportunity. So, all those who after the vote said you didn't know what you were doing actually did. The toughest part about direct democracy is accepting you don't always win on a personal level. Like you asked about the monetary system if you want to change it you have to get a consensus and then you need to explain the fors and against.  

In the Athens DD they had so called Boulia, a body of about 500 citizens, elected for only 1 year, not allowed to go twice. The boulia were handling the day to day government tasks. It sounds as not such a bad solution.

 

I think that 4 year terms are too long for officials, too much time to dig in and get involved in corruption.

Edited by Ween Dwijler
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Just now, ink said:

 

You envision no problems with that?

I didn't say that, but also I wouldn't keep the same one for different votes. So it would figure being impartial would be advantageous even. I don't think you would need it at local level but you would at a higher level which would have a far-reaching effect.

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3 minutes ago, Ween Dwijler said:

In the Athens DD they had so called Boulia, a body of about 500 citizens, elected for only 1 year, not allowed to go twice. The boulia were handling the day to day government tasks. It sounds as not such a bad solution.

That would certainly limit deep state and is a good idea. What made Athens DD fail?

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5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That would certainly limit deep state and is a good idea. What made Athens DD fail?

I wil give you the wiki link to read it. Worth while to read I think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy

 

A thing about money popped up in my mind. Central banks; no. Governmental involvement in money; no. It is to risky and gives the opportunity to manipulate the economy. The people could make a choice for a unit of account to use as money.

 

At least a little bit of answer for your earlier question. But we should talk about this at a future point to work out the best solution(s). ;-)

Edited by Ween Dwijler
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3 minutes ago, Ween Dwijler said:

If the DD would be a global thing, there would also be no need for a head of state (unless we run into ET). No foreign office and lots of other costs could be cut. Lower taxes.

As I said in my first post that you called off topic. A Benevolent Leader.

 

"I like the system of a benevolent leader voted in to ensure the welfare of the people, held accountable to the people who using a digital system of voting policies and represents and implements policies that are a benefit society."

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Just now, Diesel said:

As I said in my first post that you called off topic. A Benevolent Leader.

 

"I like the system of a benevolent leader voted in to ensure the welfare of the people, held accountable to the people who using a digital system of voting policies and represents and implements policies that are a benefit society."

Well then it was in my opinion. We've moved on from there, getting deeper into it now. But do you still think a benevolent leader would be an idea?

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1 minute ago, Diesel said:

As I said in my first post that you called off topic. A Benevolent Leader.

 

"I like the system of a benevolent leader voted in to ensure the welfare of the people, held accountable to the people who using a digital system of voting policies and represents and implements policies that are a benefit society."

Mmm well good luck with that, Diesel I will take my chances with DD. 

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I think that you would agree .... Politics should not be a career choice! Thus, no one (and I mean also in the civil service) would serve for over two years?

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1 minute ago, ink said:

I think that you would agree .... Politics should not be a career choice! Thus, no one (and I mean also in the civil service) would serve for over two years?

Yes, I agree with that idea. I see where you want to go with the civil service. That is something to think about. Can someone do the task for one year only? The next one would have to learn it all again. It was a system in Athens , but life must have been much simpler than, a time such a thing was possible.

 

What's your take on that? How would you solve this matter?

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3 minutes ago, Ween Dwijler said:

Well then it was in my opinion. We've moved on from there, getting deeper into it now. But do you still think a benevolent leader would be an idea?

Yes I think its the best option. Incidentally I see Athens DD fell due to invasion. There may be times when the leader needs to act immediately due to outside threat or ecological disaster for instance and would not have time for DD. 

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4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Yes I think its the best option. Incidentally I see Athens DD fell due to invasion. There may be times when the leader needs to act immediately due to outside threat or ecological disaster for instance and would not have time for DD. 

A valid point. But what makes you think that decisions can't be taken quickly? If a framework for such situations is in place upfront, the community could react very fast. There will always be uncertaintities we have to deal with.

 

Over and out for now.

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10 minutes ago, Ween Dwijler said:

What's your take on that? How would you solve this matter?

 

If you remove the 'Peter Principle' via limitation of term, then you would find that near most positions are not required .... thus you end up with only a comparatively small number of roles requiring fulfilling.

You do cause another issue via people having no actual worth via the training they had .... but that can be addressed.

I consider that 'times' now are still the same as in the past .... it is just 'made' difficult'. There is only tech which is really different and most of that only harms the mass .... Life in general (the interaction of it with the self) is simple .... eat, shit, procreate .... Remove ALL the laws/rules and what do you have .... what are YOU left with?

 

A choice (in this realm) .... harm or do no harm .... although for me it is .... Allow No Harm (there is a huge difference in this .... do no harm allows harm via inaction but Allow no harm stops all harm).

 

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1 hour ago, Ween Dwijler said:

Yes mob rule is a danger in DD. Thats why I think it might be better to work towards a model based on near consensus. Especially if the decision about someones life needs to be made.

I was wondering about the voice of the minority. Is it simply a case of everyone having equal access to convince the masses?

 

Can DD ever be condusive to social change and enhancement if rule breakers and mavericks are never able to break the popularity barrier.

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On 11/1/2021 at 11:40 AM, Ween Dwijler said:

Above all, do not be afraid to speak your mind!

 

Thanks, I will.

 

There is absolutely no way democracy can work until all human beings have reached vastly higher levels of consciousness. Nobody who wants to 'lead' a country is fit to do so. The only people whom would be fit to occupy positions of power wouldn't want them.

 

The only thing which can or will work for our benefit and create absolute peace both individually and collectively will be to bring every human being up to a level of consciousness whereby the only leadership they have any interest in would be their own, over their own life. People who are standing in their own personal power have no need of crime, war or conflict. Based on where we are now, this could be thousands of years away. Putting a vote in the hands of the collective as they currently are is like giving a chainsaw to a toddler. I cannot believe after the events of the past two years that there is anyone left in this forum who thinks that giving democracy to the average person is in any way a good idea. What the actual fuck?

 

Our current political system in the Western world is an absolute joke. It does for freedom what McDonald's does for health. Nobody has any clue what absolute freedom of mind, body and spirit is.

 

Those are my thoughts on democracy. But this man put it better:

 

 

Edited by Ethel
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This topic is interesting. To be honest i read the first 2 or 3 pages entirely. Diagonal reading for the next few pages...and skipped forward looking quickly at what it appear to me to be the same kind of things. Without any intentions to be rude or diminishing anyone knowledge and view about what our world should look like. I am delighted to see that people really want to improve themselves and the ways we are use to do many things. The things that seem to bored me rapidly is that many times the same words were coming back over and over again. There seem to be many ideas on how it can quickly become corrupt whatever the system. I even saw we need to have a “bill for human rights”. We don't need any bills to have rights. period...the same kind of way of thinking seem to come back, which is -we need a system and "levels" of organizations to be implement at levels. Levels and system does not sound like community to me. It seem to me that we have to remember that we should reeducate ourselves to be aware and respect our human rights... we all have those rights at birth and we need to learn to rely upon ourselves to defend it if required. Trying to find a model here and there seem weird to me. It is very simple. My freedom stop when it impact on the freedom of others. Everything that come after are conveniences that give us the opportunity to have our bodily needs met in a more efficient and easier way. That should allow and help us to relief the stress that we are use to feel and help us putting our human qualities at the forefronts.

I like the knowledge i have. The question is, how i would want to use it? To show to the world how much i have learn about so much things and how I KNOW HOW IT works(guilty of it myself), or to use it to expand my own habilities to see in a more clear and accurate way the things i already know about my surrounding and myself. Also trying to avoid falling in the same paterns that lead us were we are now.

We will have at first to mature emotionnaly and learn to spot some behaviors in some individuals and on ourselves that we have learned to tolerate or underminded the potential impacts. We need to know how we should grow as individuals before trying to fix infrastructures that are either already known to exist or already in place. But just to be clear, i have to work on myself on a daily basis to be able to see things with more clarity. For...where do we go from now?... in the current state of the world....i really dont know. Stopping all of this should be the first step. But it need to be even worst apparently.

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1 hour ago, Ethel said:

There is absolutely no way democracy can work until all human beings have reached vastly higher levels of consciousness.

I have concerns as well. We do need to reach a higher level of consciousness and not be consumed by greed and materialism. The trouble is the system has created "sheeple" its not their fault but they have been bullied, brainwashed and enslaved. They actually regulate each other to conformity. In the lockdowns crime fell 80% but calls to police went up with people ratting on their neighbours. 

 

You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it. Morpheus, The Matrix

 

I love your video and it is unfortunately true. Creation of another elite to replace the current elite will simply lead back to the same as now. So in the absence of a spiritual leader DD could be our best hope.

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2 hours ago, Jus said:

I was wondering about the voice of the minority. Is it simply a case of everyone having equal access to convince the masses?

 

Can DD ever be condusive to social change and enhancement if rule breakers and mavericks are never able to break the popularity barrier.

Popularity does not equate to wisdom, some of the great thinkers of history were not popular in their time. I would hate to see a society created out of popularity it would be that be like that Black Mirror episode Nosedive and that's a real danger with DD. Perhaps it is a case of equal access, not sure of the answer but its a excellent point you make.

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5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Popularity does not equate to wisdom, some of the great thinkers of history were not popular in their time. I would hate to see a society created out of popularity it would be that be like that Black Mirror episode Nosedive and that's a real danger with DD. Perhaps it is a case of equal access, not sure of the answer but its a excellent point you make.

Beware of those who see DD as threat Diesel, the only people it threatens are the very people and the system that has put you in the position you are in.

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7 hours ago, ink said:

 

If you remove the 'Peter Principle' via limitation of term, then you would find that near most positions are not required .... thus you end up with only a comparatively small number of roles requiring fulfilling.

You do cause another issue via people having no actual worth via the training they had .... but that can be addressed.

I consider that 'times' now are still the same as in the past .... it is just 'made' difficult'. There is only tech which is really different and most of that only harms the mass .... Life in general (the interaction of it with the self) is simple .... eat, shit, procreate .... Remove ALL the laws/rules and what do you have .... what are YOU left with?

 

A choice (in this realm) .... harm or do no harm .... although for me it is .... Allow No Harm (there is a huge difference in this .... do no harm allows harm via inaction but Allow no harm stops all harm).

 

You're like a magician with a rabbit! I can't add much more to what you're saying. I agree with it. Allow no harm is indeed a beter principle than do no harm. Do no harm is a passive stance and requires no action. The law of entropy applied on this will show that such a stance will lead to chaos. The kind we're in right now. Allow no harm requires action, which can be adopted to the need for it. I think the principle might take a little time to be adopted by the masses, but it is certainly feasible.

 

I try to adhere to the principles of Yin and Yang for simplicity.

 

Good points you made.

Edited by Ween Dwijler
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7 hours ago, Jus said:

I was wondering about the voice of the minority. Is it simply a case of everyone having equal access to convince the masses?

 

Can DD ever be condusive to social change and enhancement if rule breakers and mavericks are never able to break the popularity barrier.

Everyone has a voice in DD. Proposals will be filtered by the process, so that the viable ones are left for voting. Mavericks and rule breakers will always be present, in any system. All we can do is trying to foresee as much as possible and keep the system flexible enough to adapt to changes in reality without compromising the principles of that system.

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