Fear of God?

[DarianF]

Just now, peter said:

Sorry I stuffed that up

 

All good. No offense. Just wanted to let you know in case you didn't notice

[peter]

3 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

A bit like yours then.

Don't get me wrong , I really don't care what you believe in, your personal beliefs are fine by me ,and more power to you

The whole premise of my argument is, why do humans need to believe in a god to live a good life ,and by that I mean to simply  treat others with respect and to help and support people if you are in a position to do so

[DarianF]

Just now, peter said:

Don't get me wrong , I really don't care what you believe in, your personal beliefs are fine by me ,and more power to you

The whole premise of my argument is, why do humans need to believe in a god to live a good life ,and by that I mean to simply  treat others with respect and to help and support people if you are in a position to do so

 

You don't need god or any divine edicts to be a moral and ethical human being (dear god, please don't let us get our morals from the Bible ). That's the whole point of the secular humanist perspective.

[Morpheus]

1 minute ago, peter said:

Don't get me wrong , I really don't care what you believe in, your personal beliefs are fine by me ,and more power to you

The whole premise of my argument is, why do humans need to believe in a god to live a good life ,and by that I mean to simply  treat others with respect and to help and support people if you are in a position to do so

Because unfortunately without some moral guidance we do what we do now, use, abuse and destroy. In addition, we have been born into a system of debt slavery that also creates narcissistic, materialistic psychopaths who recognise very quickly that taking advantage of people gets them power and ultimately the cycle carries on. I'm sure we would be able to care much more for each other if we weren't so indebted to such a system and without it I am sure we could prosper as a species. What that system is I don't know, but we've clearly exhausted all the bull shit ideology up until now, so why not something new? Again, I have no idea of what that could be, but has to be better than this. 

[Given To Fly]

Any outlook that dismisses and ignores the spiritual reality of the conflict we are in is catastrophic for humanity. The fact is that we don't get to dictate what reality is. We are Creation. Man has tried to elevate himself and be as a god, but has utterly failed and destroyed and deceived everything in its process.

 

TPTB want you disempowered, to deny spiritual warfare (Ephesians 6:12) which is why the constant propaganda of fear and that society and humanity can change its being by economic and social politics. You can't legislate for the devil to disappear.

 

We are obviously in perilous times and these nihilistic bastards want you trapped in groundhog day and to believe their satanic science. Faith can lead to spiritual discernment, something that they want to make obsolete.

[peter]

29 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

Because unfortunately without some moral guidance we do what we do now, use, abuse and destroy. In addition, we have been born into a system of debt slavery that also creates narcissistic, materialistic psychopaths who recognise very quickly that taking advantage of people gets them power and ultimately the cycle carries on. I'm sure we would be able to care much more for each other if we weren't so indebted to such a system and without it I am sure we could prosper as a species. What that system is I don't know, but we've clearly exhausted all the bull shit ideology up until now, so why not something new? Again, I have no idea of what that could be, but has to be better than this. 

I find that entire argument rather silly ,you either have morals or you don't ,you either do the right thing or you don't and if you do require guidance it doesn't say too much about your personnel attributes. How many people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week

[Morpheus]

15 minutes ago, peter said:

How many people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week

I don't know, tell me? Do you have a number or are you just making a generalised statement? 

[peter]

2 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

I don't know, tell me? Do you have a number or are you just making a generalised statement? 

Ok bad choice of words

Would you agree that some people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week and if you look at the number of people around the world that follow religion the number would be very high

Edited April 8, 2022 by peter

[EnigmaticWorld]

22 minutes ago, Given To Fly said:

TPTB want you disempowered, to deny spiritual warfare (Ephesians 6:12) which is why the constant propaganda of fear and that society and humanity can change its being by economic and social politics. You can't legislate for the devil to disappear.

 

Yep they want you disempowered and confused so you're easy to control. Any society that makes weakness a virtue is doomed.

 

 

"Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong." - 1 Corinthians 16:13

 

Society won't survive if it's scared to talk about unpleasant truths either.

 

"Don't participate in the fruitless works of darkness, but instead expose them" - Ephesians 5:11

Edited April 8, 2022 by EnigmaticWorld

[Morpheus]

19 minutes ago, peter said:

I find that entire argument rather silly ,you either have morals or you don't ,

How does one find such morality Peter? 

[DarianF]

1 minute ago, peter said:

Ok bad choice of words

Would you agree that some people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week

 

Humans evolved as a social species. What we call ethics or morals today developed naturally as a matter of the essential survival of our species. It didn't all magically come down from a mountain suddenly. Church or no church, it doesn't matter.

[Morpheus]

3 minutes ago, peter said:

Ok bad choice of words

Would you agree that some people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week

Would you agree that as a result of societal manipulation through time that people have become morally corrupt due to manufactured societal prejudices, rise in materialism and any other fuckin ism you want to attach to this?

 

I'll think we'll also, before we go any further with this, need to discuss whether morality is objective or subjective, I'll then get a better idea of where this may or may not go. So, is morality or objective or subjective? 

[EnigmaticWorld]

7 minutes ago, peter said:

Ok bad choice of words

Would you agree that some people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week and if you look at the number of people around the world that follow religion the number would be very high

 

Do you think the religious only do good because of a book? I'm religious, but if you need a book to be a good person you're a wanker.

[Morpheus]

8 minutes ago, peter said:

Ok bad choice of words

Would you agree that some people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week

To answer your question, people do bad shit and I'm not going to sit here and pretend people in the church aren't despicable pieces of shit either. But I don't believe I've suggested otherwise so I'm not sure what point this proves exactly. 

[Morpheus]

1 minute ago, EnigmaticWorld said:

but if you need a book to be a good person you're a wanker.

Exactly

[DarianF]

9 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

So, is morality or objective or subjective? 

 

It would help if you defined precisely what you mean by this question. Give the exact definitions of each option so we know what you're referring to, if you don't mind.

[DarianF]

10 minutes ago, EnigmaticWorld said:

 

Do you think the religious only do good because of a book? I'm religious, but if you need a book to be a good person you're a wanker.

 

This is the basic point, I would argue. If you were a good and decent person before finding religion, you couldn't claim it was religion that made you a good person. Maybe you found it useful later, but if you never found religion, you would still be a good a decent person regardless. Human morality and social behaviour predates organised religion and religious texts by a substantial amount of time.

[Morpheus]

2 minutes ago, DarianF said:

 

It would help if you defined precisely what you mean by this question. Give the exact definitions of each option so we know what you're referring to, if you don't mind.

Objective morality is preordained by natural law and subjective morality is whatever you feel it to be, a bit like your gender.

[DarianF]

Just now, Morpheus said:

Objective morality is preordained by natural law and subjective morality is whatever you feel it to be, a bit like your gender.

 

Okay, thanks for clarifying.

[Morpheus]

1 minute ago, DarianF said:

 

This is the basic point, I would argue. If you were a good and decent person before finding religion, you couldn't claim it was religion that made you a good person. Maybe you found it useful later, but if you never found religion, you would still be a good a decent person regardless. Human morality and social behaviour predates organised religion and religious texts by a substantial amount of time.

The very people who want to kill you right now believe in a god and prophecy, are you therefore not curious as to why that is? If such a thing is bunkem, then why would they waste their time?

[peter]

2 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

How does one find such morality Peter? 

I don't know I guess you are either moral and do the right thing or you don't

I can only speak from experience, my next anniversary is number 37 ,I've never cheated on my wife, I have no inclination to control or have power over people, I don't think I'm better than anyone else.. If you would simply treat people the way you yourself expect to be treated the world would be a much better and happier place ,and you don't need a god to do that  

[DarianF]

5 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

The very people who want to kill you right now believe in a god and prophecy, are you therefore not curious as to why that is? If such a thing is bunkem, then why would they waste their time?

 

Of course, it's important to understand. But just because they believe something, doesn't make it true. Maybe they are just crazy.

 

Edit: For example, these Bohemian Grove guys are worshiping the owl god, Moloch, apparently [ https://battleplan.news/watch?id=5ebc5477244ac5001d2386ff ]. Does that mean I believe there is an owl god called Moloch? Of course not. I think they are bat shit crazy, like any religious cult members or fundamentalist sects.

 

But the fact they are a crazy cult and THEY believe it, that makes them dangerous. So just because people worship the devil or god and that makes them take whatever actions based on their religious beliefs, doesn't mean I have to accept their entities are actually real.

 

So yes, understand them. Very important, but as an objective observer.

Edited April 8, 2022 by DarianF

[DarianF]

1 minute ago, peter said:

I don't know I guess you are either moral and do the right thing or you don't

I can only speak from experience, my next anniversary is number 37 ,I've never cheated on my wife, I have no inclination to control or have power over people, I don't think I'm better than anyone else.. If you would simply treat people the way you yourself expect to be treated the world would be a much better and happier place ,and you don't need a god to do that  

 

Happy anniversary. That's impressive.

[peter]

20 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

Would you agree that as a result of societal manipulation through time that people have become morally corrupt due to manufactured societal prejudices, rise in materialism and any other fuckin ism you want to attach to this?

Yes absolutely without a doubt ,but I would put it to you that the people that are becoming morally corrupt are morally week in the first place and no amount of religious guidance will help

I don't think morels are objective or subjective ,they just are

[DarianF]

2 minutes ago, peter said:

Yes absolutely without a doubt ,but I would put it to you that the people that are becoming morally corrupt are morally week in the first place and no amount of religious guidance will help

I don't think morels are objective or subjective ,they just are

 

Morals can also be culturally relative. For example, what is perfectly moral or acceptable in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, etc, may be abhorrent and illegal in the West. But what is considered moral or legal in the West, maybe be morally reprehensible or even illegal in the aforementioned countries.