DarianF Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 Just now, peter said: Sorry I stuffed that up All good. No offense. Just wanted to let you know in case you didn't notice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 3 minutes ago, Morpheus said: A bit like yours then. Don't get me wrong , I really don't care what you believe in, your personal beliefs are fine by me ,and more power to you The whole premise of my argument is, why do humans need to believe in a god to live a good life ,and by that I mean to simply treat others with respect and to help and support people if you are in a position to do so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarianF Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 Just now, peter said: Don't get me wrong , I really don't care what you believe in, your personal beliefs are fine by me ,and more power to you The whole premise of my argument is, why do humans need to believe in a god to live a good life ,and by that I mean to simply treat others with respect and to help and support people if you are in a position to do so You don't need god or any divine edicts to be a moral and ethical human being (dear god, please don't let us get our morals from the Bible ). That's the whole point of the secular humanist perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 1 minute ago, peter said: Don't get me wrong , I really don't care what you believe in, your personal beliefs are fine by me ,and more power to you The whole premise of my argument is, why do humans need to believe in a god to live a good life ,and by that I mean to simply treat others with respect and to help and support people if you are in a position to do so Because unfortunately without some moral guidance we do what we do now, use, abuse and destroy. In addition, we have been born into a system of debt slavery that also creates narcissistic, materialistic psychopaths who recognise very quickly that taking advantage of people gets them power and ultimately the cycle carries on. I'm sure we would be able to care much more for each other if we weren't so indebted to such a system and without it I am sure we could prosper as a species. What that system is I don't know, but we've clearly exhausted all the bull shit ideology up until now, so why not something new? Again, I have no idea of what that could be, but has to be better than this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Given To Fly Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 Any outlook that dismisses and ignores the spiritual reality of the conflict we are in is catastrophic for humanity. The fact is that we don't get to dictate what reality is. We are Creation. Man has tried to elevate himself and be as a god, but has utterly failed and destroyed and deceived everything in its process. TPTB want you disempowered, to deny spiritual warfare (Ephesians 6:12) which is why the constant propaganda of fear and that society and humanity can change its being by economic and social politics. You can't legislate for the devil to disappear. We are obviously in perilous times and these nihilistic bastards want you trapped in groundhog day and to believe their satanic science. Faith can lead to spiritual discernment, something that they want to make obsolete. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 29 minutes ago, Morpheus said: Because unfortunately without some moral guidance we do what we do now, use, abuse and destroy. In addition, we have been born into a system of debt slavery that also creates narcissistic, materialistic psychopaths who recognise very quickly that taking advantage of people gets them power and ultimately the cycle carries on. I'm sure we would be able to care much more for each other if we weren't so indebted to such a system and without it I am sure we could prosper as a species. What that system is I don't know, but we've clearly exhausted all the bull shit ideology up until now, so why not something new? Again, I have no idea of what that could be, but has to be better than this. I find that entire argument rather silly ,you either have morals or you don't ,you either do the right thing or you don't and if you do require guidance it doesn't say too much about your personnel attributes. How many people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 15 minutes ago, peter said: How many people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week I don't know, tell me? Do you have a number or are you just making a generalised statement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Morpheus said: I don't know, tell me? Do you have a number or are you just making a generalised statement? Ok bad choice of words Would you agree that some people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week and if you look at the number of people around the world that follow religion the number would be very high Edited April 8, 2022 by peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnigmaticWorld Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Given To Fly said: TPTB want you disempowered, to deny spiritual warfare (Ephesians 6:12) which is why the constant propaganda of fear and that society and humanity can change its being by economic and social politics. You can't legislate for the devil to disappear. Yep they want you disempowered and confused so you're easy to control. Any society that makes weakness a virtue is doomed. "Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong." - 1 Corinthians 16:13 Society won't survive if it's scared to talk about unpleasant truths either. "Don't participate in the fruitless works of darkness, but instead expose them" - Ephesians 5:11 Edited April 8, 2022 by EnigmaticWorld 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 19 minutes ago, peter said: I find that entire argument rather silly ,you either have morals or you don't , How does one find such morality Peter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarianF Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 1 minute ago, peter said: Ok bad choice of words Would you agree that some people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week Humans evolved as a social species. What we call ethics or morals today developed naturally as a matter of the essential survival of our species. It didn't all magically come down from a mountain suddenly. Church or no church, it doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 3 minutes ago, peter said: Ok bad choice of words Would you agree that some people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week Would you agree that as a result of societal manipulation through time that people have become morally corrupt due to manufactured societal prejudices, rise in materialism and any other fuckin ism you want to attach to this? I'll think we'll also, before we go any further with this, need to discuss whether morality is objective or subjective, I'll then get a better idea of where this may or may not go. So, is morality or objective or subjective? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnigmaticWorld Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 7 minutes ago, peter said: Ok bad choice of words Would you agree that some people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week and if you look at the number of people around the world that follow religion the number would be very high Do you think the religious only do good because of a book? I'm religious, but if you need a book to be a good person you're a wanker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 8 minutes ago, peter said: Ok bad choice of words Would you agree that some people hide behind religion and do exactly what they want and dam the consequences for all and sundry provided it doesn't affect them and then their back to church next week To answer your question, people do bad shit and I'm not going to sit here and pretend people in the church aren't despicable pieces of shit either. But I don't believe I've suggested otherwise so I'm not sure what point this proves exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 1 minute ago, EnigmaticWorld said: but if you need a book to be a good person you're a wanker. Exactly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarianF Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 9 minutes ago, Morpheus said: So, is morality or objective or subjective? It would help if you defined precisely what you mean by this question. Give the exact definitions of each option so we know what you're referring to, if you don't mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarianF Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 10 minutes ago, EnigmaticWorld said: Do you think the religious only do good because of a book? I'm religious, but if you need a book to be a good person you're a wanker. This is the basic point, I would argue. If you were a good and decent person before finding religion, you couldn't claim it was religion that made you a good person. Maybe you found it useful later, but if you never found religion, you would still be a good a decent person regardless. Human morality and social behaviour predates organised religion and religious texts by a substantial amount of time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 2 minutes ago, DarianF said: It would help if you defined precisely what you mean by this question. Give the exact definitions of each option so we know what you're referring to, if you don't mind. Objective morality is preordained by natural law and subjective morality is whatever you feel it to be, a bit like your gender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarianF Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 Just now, Morpheus said: Objective morality is preordained by natural law and subjective morality is whatever you feel it to be, a bit like your gender. Okay, thanks for clarifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 1 minute ago, DarianF said: This is the basic point, I would argue. If you were a good and decent person before finding religion, you couldn't claim it was religion that made you a good person. Maybe you found it useful later, but if you never found religion, you would still be a good a decent person regardless. Human morality and social behaviour predates organised religion and religious texts by a substantial amount of time. The very people who want to kill you right now believe in a god and prophecy, are you therefore not curious as to why that is? If such a thing is bunkem, then why would they waste their time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 2 minutes ago, Morpheus said: How does one find such morality Peter? I don't know I guess you are either moral and do the right thing or you don't I can only speak from experience, my next anniversary is number 37 ,I've never cheated on my wife, I have no inclination to control or have power over people, I don't think I'm better than anyone else.. If you would simply treat people the way you yourself expect to be treated the world would be a much better and happier place ,and you don't need a god to do that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarianF Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Morpheus said: The very people who want to kill you right now believe in a god and prophecy, are you therefore not curious as to why that is? If such a thing is bunkem, then why would they waste their time? Of course, it's important to understand. But just because they believe something, doesn't make it true. Maybe they are just crazy. Edit: For example, these Bohemian Grove guys are worshiping the owl god, Moloch, apparently [ https://battleplan.news/watch?id=5ebc5477244ac5001d2386ff ]. Does that mean I believe there is an owl god called Moloch? Of course not. I think they are bat shit crazy, like any religious cult members or fundamentalist sects. But the fact they are a crazy cult and THEY believe it, that makes them dangerous. So just because people worship the devil or god and that makes them take whatever actions based on their religious beliefs, doesn't mean I have to accept their entities are actually real. So yes, understand them. Very important, but as an objective observer. Edited April 8, 2022 by DarianF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarianF Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 1 minute ago, peter said: I don't know I guess you are either moral and do the right thing or you don't I can only speak from experience, my next anniversary is number 37 ,I've never cheated on my wife, I have no inclination to control or have power over people, I don't think I'm better than anyone else.. If you would simply treat people the way you yourself expect to be treated the world would be a much better and happier place ,and you don't need a god to do that Happy anniversary. That's impressive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 20 minutes ago, Morpheus said: Would you agree that as a result of societal manipulation through time that people have become morally corrupt due to manufactured societal prejudices, rise in materialism and any other fuckin ism you want to attach to this? Yes absolutely without a doubt ,but I would put it to you that the people that are becoming morally corrupt are morally week in the first place and no amount of religious guidance will help I don't think morels are objective or subjective ,they just are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarianF Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 2 minutes ago, peter said: Yes absolutely without a doubt ,but I would put it to you that the people that are becoming morally corrupt are morally week in the first place and no amount of religious guidance will help I don't think morels are objective or subjective ,they just are Morals can also be culturally relative. For example, what is perfectly moral or acceptable in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, etc, may be abhorrent and illegal in the West. But what is considered moral or legal in the West, maybe be morally reprehensible or even illegal in the aforementioned countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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