Where is your God?

[pi3141]

Eastern Orthodox view - 

 

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Hell

Detail of Hell in a painting depicting the Second Coming (Georgios Klontzas, late 16th century)
Main article: Christian views on Hell § Eastern Orthodox views 

The Eastern Orthodox Church, as well as the Non-Chalcedonian Churches (i.e., Oriental Orthodoxy and Assyrian Church of the East), teach that both the elect and the lost enter into the presence of God after death, and that the elect experience this presence as light and rest, while the lost experience it as darkness and torment.[13] The Orthodox see this doctrine as supported by Scripture and by the patristic tradition. Hell as professed in the East is neither the absence of God, nor the ontological separation of the soul from the presence of God, but rather the opposite—Heaven and Hell are the fully manifest divine presence, experienced either pleasantly as peace and joy or unpleasantly as shame and anguish, depending upon one's spiritual state and preparedness. 

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_theology

 

 

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Many people think that heaven and hell are the places God sends us to either reward or punish us. But Orthodox Christians don't believe in this "two story" model of the universe. We believe that God is "present in all places and filling all things," and that what we interpret as salvation or damnation is actually our response to, and experience of, God's unconditional love.

 

Link - https://www.goarch.org/-/heaven-and-hell?inheritRedirect=true

 

 

The weight of opinion...

[pi3141]

Coptic Christians don't believe in Hell as an eternal fire.

 

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Is Hell a Real Fire?

 

Is hell a real fire? Could it be? If it were, why would God create this fire? Does He want to chastise us forever? Many Christians and non-Christians alike have serious difficulties in approaching a God that would let people burn for eternity. In fact, this misrepresentation of God’s wrath or His cruel punishment has led many not only to NOT believe in the Christian God, but also to unjustly hate Him.

 

When His Holiness Pope Shenouda, of Thrice Blessed Memory, was once asked if hell was a real fire. His answer was clear: no, it is not! Actually, believing that hell is a real fire is an offense to God’s fatherhood.

 

Link -https://copticorthodoxanswers.org/apologetics/hell-real-fire-god-want-chastise-us-eternity/

 

Not only is a belief in Hell wrong it is an offense against God to hold the view it exists.

Edited April 2, 2021 by pi3141

[pi3141]

Hindu's

 

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The Hindu religion regards Hell not as a place of lasting permanence, but as an alternate domain from which an individual can return to the present world after crimes in the previous life have been compensated for. These crimes are eventually nullified through an equal punishment in the next life.

 

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Hinduism)#:~:text=The Hindu religion regards Hell,punishment in the next life.

 

[pi3141]

Buddhism

 

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Is there a heaven and a hell?

 

This is what is meant by the terms ‘heaven' and 'hell' in Buddhist teachings: there are no permanent heavens or hells as taught in other religions.

 

Link - https://www.londonbuddhistvihara.org/teachings/heaven-and-hell-in-buddhism/

 

[pi3141]

So it seems Roman Christians are somewhat alone in their belief in Hell, an eternal fire of damnation. Its simply not borne out by study of other religions, or scriptual origins. The spiritualists don't believe it and nor do many other denominations of Christians or the Jews on which the Christian texts are based!

 

So there you go, I've made the case that Hell is a Christian lie , shown it is somewhat based on mistranslation, showed disparity between the beliefs of various religions and Christian denominations and provided sources to back up the claim.

 

Can the Christians now show their evidence that Hell does exist? Then perhaps we can weigh up the evidence.

[pi3141]

11 hours ago, Norn IroNZ said:

The Christian bible leaves no doubt about eternal damnation/hell. It's an offense to God to reject deny or change scripture. 

 

Can you give me examples about the Bible describing Hell?

 

I agree it is an offense to change the word of God, but thats something I charge the Roman Christians of doing. 

 

I'll give an example, in the Bible Jesus says 'I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it' yet according to some, Jesus did NOT say 'gates of Hades' he said 'gates of death' hence the Christians changed Jesus' words.

[pi3141]

9 hours ago, Norn IroNZ said:

Scripture is the authority. Scripture is very clear and exceedingly descriptive of both the reality of Heaven and Hell as very real eternal destinations.

 

The bible is Christianity. The weird buildings full of weird people is NOT Christianity. There is NOTHING in the bible instructing us to build lavish buildings to "worship" God in. 

 

Again, can you give examples of where the Bible describes Hell.

 

And yes I agree, Jesus nor the Bible say anything about building churches in fact it says if you take a rock and true it to make an altar you have defiled it, so truing rocks to build churches must be totally wrong.

 

And thank you, I'm sure God loves you to.

[pi3141]

I'll try and give another example, in Mathew 5.30 it says better to cut off your hand than go to hell. The original Hebrew word in the text for Hell being 'Geenan' which is not a word for Hell it is a valley known as Gehenna just outside of Jerusalem where Kings sacrificed children and hence it was believed to be cursed. It is also known as a destination for the wicked to the Jews. It was later known as a garbage centre, where, if you were a condemed man, after execution they would dump your body. To keep the area disease free they set alight to it. Hence if your body was dumped there you would burn forever.

 

This has been confused by Christians to be the literal Hell.

Edited April 14, 2021 by pi3141

[Maedros]

Concerning Hell: 

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and ^asuffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the ^asons of ^bperdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are ^avessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is ^ano ^bforgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having ^adenied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having ^bcrucified him unto themselves and put him to an open ^cshame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the ^alake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the ^aonly ones on whom the ^bsecond ^cdeath shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall ^anot be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be ^abrought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the ^btriumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father ^cbefore the worlds were made.

43 Who ^aglorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of ^bperdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all ^aexcept them—they shall go away into ^beverlasting ^cpunishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to ^dreign with the ^edevil and his angels in eternity, where their ^fworm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the ^aend thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

[Notimeleft]

He is coming

[monkeylove]

The question to ask isn't, "Where is your God?" Rather, where is man?

 

[Macnamara]

On 2/16/2021 at 1:31 AM, Michi713 said:

Because humanity has rejected God, His laws, and His Son, He is not here.  He gave us (humanity) a choice, a chance.  And we squandered it.

 

The modern rational scientific mindset cannot grapple with the symbolic power of religion

 

the modern rational scientific mind with its literal interpretation of things cannot make sense of a man walking on water or turning water into wine. The magic goes out of religion and is replaced with rigid skepticism instead

 

If people can think poetically, which is to mean engaging the holistic right side of their brain in balance with the more logical left side they could re-engage with religion and find new meaning in it

 

But without doing that it will always seem like fairytale to the modern rational scientific (left brain dominant) mind

[Michi713]

4 hours ago, Macnamara said:

 

The modern rational scientific mindset cannot grapple with the symbolic power of religion

 

the modern rational scientific mind with its literal interpretation of things cannot make sense of a man walking on water or turning water into wine. The magic goes out of religion and is replaced with rigid skepticism instead

 

If people can think poetically, which is to mean engaging the holistic right side of their brain in balance with the more logical left side they could re-engage with religion and find new meaning in it

 

But without doing that it will always seem like fairytale to the modern rational scientific (left brain dominant) mind

If by modern, rational, scientific mind you mean your own, Macnamara mind, I buy that.
 

But as far as ‘people’ are concerned, they are anything but rational and scientific minded.  
 

See The Social Animal by Eliot Aronson, Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman, and The Milgram Experiment for the basics on that.  
 

Why do we not see naysayers naysaying Hinduism, Buddhism, and Neo and the Matrix? Going, “well that’s not possible for that to happen in real life!”

 

The problem isn’t that people can’t use their right brains or understand symbols.  Problem is they don’t view or respect Christianity as a path.  And that’s exactly what it is:  a path.  
 

If you come up to the Buddhist path, you either take it or you decline.  You don’t sit at the door and gripe about what you never bothered to look into, much less understand.

 

I’m here at the  British Museum with my field trip and we go in and I’m fascinated!  The other kids in my class have no interest whatsoever because all this shit was stolen anyway and museums suck.  So they go play Pokémon go or shop.  

I go back on the weekends and read all the inscriptions on all of exhibits.  Then I go back and talk to one of the curators.  One day, I sit in front of the bronze Shiva and just take it in.  

It is basically the same concept when you study the Bible or enter into any religious practice.  
 

But those who do not want to make themselves vulnerable will come up with just any reason to keep away.  I know this because I was the same.  
 

I testify to you as another thinking, reasoning person, that this path, Christianity, works by practice.  And it’s good!  
 

[DarianF]

2 hours ago, Norn IroNZ said:

The gospels are eyewitness accounts. Written by his closest disciples. Scientifically recorded and observed written accounts. Historical documents. Evidence. 

 

Read God is Not Great, Chapter 8 [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Is_Not_Great#Chapter_Eight:_The_"New"_Testament_Exceeds_The_Evil_Of_The_"Old"_One ].

 

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by DarianF

[pi3141]

9 hours ago, Norn IroNZ said:

Mar 9:45 It is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

 

Mar 9:46 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

Mar 9:47 - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

 

Mar 9:48 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

This is I think one of those misinterpretations. I googled it and found this translation on Bible study tools - 

 

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45 And if your foot makes you sin, cut it off! Better that you should be lame but obtain eternal life, rather than keep both feet and be thrown into Gei-Hinnom! 46 47 And if your eye makes you sin, pluck it out! Better that you should be one-eyed but enter the Kingdom of God, rather than keep both eyes and be thrown into Gei-Hinnom, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 Indeed, everyone is going to be salted with fire. 50 Salt is excellent, but if it loses its saltiness, how will you season it? So have salt in yourselves -- that is, be at peace with each other." 

 

Link - https://www.biblestudytools.com/cjb/mark/passage/?q=mark+9:45-50

 

What is Gei-Hinnom.

 

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Gehenna (/ɡɪˈhɛnə/, /ɡəˈhɛnə/^[1]) or Gehinnom (literally translated as "Valley of Hinnom") is thought to be a small valley in Jerusalem. In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire.^[2] Thereafter, it was deemed to be cursed (Book of Jeremiah 7:31, 19:2–6).^[3]

In rabbinic literature, Gehenna is also a destination of the wicked.^[4] Gehinnom is not Hell, but originally a grave and in later times a sort of purgatory where one is judged based on one's life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. 

 

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

 

I've read that the valley of Gehenna was later turned into a rubbish tip to discourage the use of it for sacrifices, in order to maintain sanitary conditions they used to set alight to it on a regular basis, keep it burning to consume the rubbish. Hence perpetual fire or fire not quenched. Anyway, if you were a criminal executed for your crimes, your body may well end up in Gehenna and burn for eternity because nobody would come to claim your bones. 

 

Hence this concept of burning in hell fire is based on this valley rather than an actual Hell and as shown in the wiki quote it is not considered a place of 'eternal damnation' rather those destined for it will at some point pass through it.

 

It seems some Bible translations have changed Gehinnom to Hell.

Edited April 16, 2021 by pi3141

[Macnamara]

19 hours ago, Norn IroNZ said:

The gospels are eyewitness accounts. Written by his closest disciples. Scientifically recorded and observed written accounts. Historical documents. Evidence. 

 

so matthew, mark, luke and john aren't the changing of the cycle of the solar year:

 

''The four beasts are depicted as lion, ox, man and eagle. I think these depict the four Zodiac signs of the “Seasons’ of the Precession of the Equinox. The four signs are: lion=Leo, ox=Taurus, man=Aquarius, and eagle=Aquila (which rises with Scorpio).''

https://virily.com/culture/astrotheology-in-the-bible/

[Macnamara]

19 hours ago, Michi713 said:

Why do we not see naysayers naysaying Hinduism, Buddhism, and Neo and the Matrix? Going, “well that’s not possible for that to happen in real life!”

 

The problem isn’t that people can’t use their right brains or understand symbols.  Problem is they don’t view or respect Christianity as a path.  And that’s exactly what it is:  a path. 

 

Ok i can only speak from my own experience here of being brought up a christian and then becoming skeptical in my teens and then an agnostic lefty in my twenties before becoming increasingly conservative and rediscovering religion through the filter of jung lol

 

You are asked to have a blind faith position of believing a literal truth that your rational mind cannot accept and this leads to dissolusionment and then abandonment

 

It's only by looking again through a different filter that things can begin to make sense and therefore once again achieve validity

 

Why has this one dimensionalism occured? I would argue that it has been done deliberately through a process carried out by the network of kabbalists out of which came the knights templar. i would argue that the network were behind the reformation which created a protestant offshoot of christianity which presented a more austere and palid expression of the religion with all the pageant and colour removed which perhaps also removes the role of the senses in the experience which are perhaps important in the process of awakening the imaginative or intuitive side of the brain

 

This protestant spartanism has created a very rational, mechanistic, left brain-dominant perception of creation that squeezes out the magic of spirit. The reformation, followed by the enlightenment has seen a mass dissolusionment with christianity in the west resulting in empty church seats and i would argue that this has been done by design. A modern creation of the templar network of kabbalists is marxism which seeks to deliver the coup de grace to christianity.

 

In order to re-engage therefore you have to find a pathway back to that right brain experience of religion which requires a more poetic form of thinking

Edited April 16, 2021 by Macnamara

[Michi713]

1 hour ago, Macnamara said:

rediscovering religion through the filter of jung lol

Curious...what have you found through the filter of Jung?  All I know of his work is dreams and archetypes.  Wasn’t he on the eastern religious path?
 

1 hour ago, Macnamara said:

protestant spartanism

 
Interesting perspective on Protestantism.  The truths and teachings in the Bible are all I need, but my imagination is kind of wild on its own.  

The celebration church down the road has a lot of flashing lights, loud musical productions, multimedia sermons, and it’s just way too much.  I can see the need though, to put on a show to break through the numbness.  

 

What I have learned in less than a year about the path of Christianity is simple in theory, but transforming in practice:
 

Prayerfully study the Bible and repent, turn away from the sinful life.  In practice it is a discipline like meditation; each moment reforming the selfish, destructive nature of my mind.  Filtering thoughts: are they idle, evil, Godly?  

I am also required to bear fruit, meaning no longer be a taker, but a wholehearted giver.  Remember the suffering and help.  It is not sexy, glamorous, or self-aggrandizing, but it is not passive.  

When contemplating God and God’s love for us it is so overwhelmingly beautiful this gift of life.  Makes me a crybaby. 
 

 

 

[Michi713]

48 minutes ago, Norn IroNZ said:

Dont expect to be around long. Apparently my posts are "spamming". I'm a celebrity get me outta here.

Attacks, distortions, or criticism of the Christian faith are welcomed.  
Also if you believe you are not real and nothing is real and you are living a fake life inside a computer simulation that is better received.  
I like your posts,  though.

[Macnamara]

1 hour ago, Norn IroNZ said:

 

and then of course people get to make up things that it doesnt mean or relate to and say that it does because they have an internet link to prove it. I'm easy, make it mean whatever you like folks.

 

i don't think anything is being made up there. The astrotheological aspects are clear with for example 12 disciples which represent the 12 houses of the zodiac

 

Jesus is a solar hero

[Macnamara]

44 minutes ago, Michi713 said:

The celebration church down the road has a lot of flashing lights, loud musical productions, multimedia sermons, and it’s just way too much.  I can see the need though, to put on a show to break through the numbness.  

 

I'm speaking from a british perspective and you are speaking from an american perspective

 

In my country 300 years ago EVERYONE went to the kirk. Now hardly anyone does. Now people stare at their televisions.

 

I'm just trying to understand the process that has torn those people away from a search for the ineffable into a phoney Tv land that won't serve the same purpose

 

44 minutes ago, Michi713 said:

What I have learned in less than a year about the path of Christianity is simple in theory, but transforming in practice:
 

Prayerfully study the Bible and repent, turn away from the sinful life.  In practice it is a discipline like meditation; each moment reforming the selfish, destructive nature of my mind.  Filtering thoughts: are they idle, evil, Godly? 

 

Sure which is why the cabal want to destroy christianity.

 

Christianity is under attack and the younger generations are not defending it. The transcendent experience of religion has been surplanted by the surface glamour of TV land.

 

I don't see that as progress

[pi3141]

23 hours ago, Norn IroNZ said:

The KJV scripture I posted is the bible in English. Anything else is a misinterpretation. I'm other words you posted a misinterpretation of what is written in plain Englsh by speaking Greek. Google is not a reliable search engine. It is controlled from the moon by aliens. 

 

I was hoping for something a bit more substantial to discuss.

 

It is well accepted by scholars that the gospels are NOT eye witness accounts, their dating has been pretty well established. I think we can thank the scholars for unwittingly leading us to some truth.

 

Archaeology has re-dated old monuments to beyond 6000 years and therefore proves the creation myth to be wrong. Modern translations of the Bible have shown us some errors in it. None of this detracts from it imo if you can accept the truth.

 

I always thought the KJV was the closest translation, at least thats what they all say, but there are errors in the translation, how they got there I don't know. There are also added verses that was not in the original writings, like the ascension story, that was added later and I think I'm correct when I say it doesn't appear in the Greek Bible.

 

As for aliens controlling Google, well I Googled the verse and found the translation I quoted on a Bible study website, its not a Google translation. I only have a copy of the Gospel of John that I am willing to refer to and Genesis, other than that, the copy of the Bible I own is not a KJV copy and therefore not a reliable source.

 

Do you not accept that some versions of the Bible do contain mis-translations or errors or do you think every Christian Bible perfectly translated? And if so, why the differences?

 

Secondly, how, without checking for yourself, can you be certain the KJV is accurate?

[pi3141]

11 hours ago, Norn IroNZ said:

Dont expect to be around long. Apparently my posts are "spamming". I'm a celebrity get me outta here.

 

I hope not, but try to understand your a Christian on an Anti-Religion forum, if you just promote Christianity without being prepared to discuss why you believe and defend it, then I guess the mods will take a dim view, if you want to talk about how great Christianity is there are Christian forums for that. For my opinion I think its useful for the forum to have people around that can give the Christian perspective, it allows us to bounce ideas off you and understand more.

[pi3141]

On 4/15/2021 at 10:03 AM, Maedros said:

44 Wherefore, he saves all ^aexcept them—they shall go away into ^beverlasting ^cpunishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to ^dreign with the ^edevil and his angels in eternity, where their ^fworm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

 

Still thinking about this one, haven't quite figured it out but Rev Robert Taylor springs to mind and this verse may have astro-theological origins to it.

 

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The Devils Pulpit - P13

As but look, I pray, on any projection of the signs of the Zodiac you please — immediately before the Horse, or  Centaur, of November, you shall see the scorpion, black-beetle, or **worm that never dieth ;^^ the genius of October, the first of the winter months, standing there, in the gates of hell, that is the point at which the Sun dips below the Equator.

 

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The Devils Pulpit - P54

as I shall show you, that from the days of John the Baptist — that is, from the 24th 
and 25th of June, which most literally are, the days of John the Baptist, which you will find in the tropic of Cancer, from that point downward, the kingdom of heaven does suffer violence. 
The days having reached the longest, at the 21st of June, the reign of the tender Lamb of March, the harmless Bullock of April, and the pretty children of May, is no more; but the 

 

The Devil's Pulpit - P55 

violent Lion of July, the Snake in full chase after the Virgin of August, the hideous Python, right over the Scales of September, the Worm that never dieth, of October, the Blue Devil of November, and all the other Sons of Violence, do take the kingdom of heaven by force ; they seem to pull the Sun from his attitude lower and lower, till "dread Wintei spreads his latest gloom, and reigns tremendous o'er the con-quered year."

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by pi3141

[Macnamara]

12 hours ago, Norn IroNZ said:

Hes my hero.  I have a Christian friend who is really into how the stars tie into biblical prophecy. The wise men followed a star, we navigate by the stars. It's an interesting topic.