The Bible not just a book

[EnigmaticWorld]

Just now, MarpatV2 said:

as if it gives them the right to impose on the lives of others

 

This is the key point though. An opinion is not imposing views on anyone.

[MarpatV2]

1 minute ago, EnigmaticWorld said:

 

This is the key point though. An opinion is not imposing views on anyone.

I have had countless christians call me evil, a satanist, etc when they dont even know me. They base such judgments on what sunday school told them about the devil. Its not an opinion, they base such negative judgements on long established church doctrine. 

[EnigmaticWorld]

Just now, MarpatV2 said:

I have had countless christians call me evil, a satanist, etc when they dont even know me. They base such judgments on what sunday school told them about the devil. Its not an opinion, they base such negative judgements on long established church doctrine. 

 

The Bible thumping Christians that constantly tell others that they're going to suffer in hell are annnoying, and pretty cringe. I can't argue there. 

[Truthspoon]

6 minutes ago, MarpatV2 said:

I have had countless christians call me evil, a satanist, etc when they dont even know me.  

 

Perhaps you are. 

 

I certainly consider you dishonest, hypocritical, intolerant, duplicitous and vengeful. This has nothing to do with your beliefs but how you comport yourself here.

You don't come across as one of the good guys.

[MarpatV2]

9 minutes ago, Truthspoon said:

 

Perhaps you are. 

 

I certainly consider you dishonest, hypocritical, intolerant, duplicitous and vengeful. This has nothing to do with your beliefs but how you comport yourself here.

You don't come across as one of the good guys.

But Im not. I dont believe satan is a specific entity that wants to destroy humanity or is the root of evil. Jesus called Peter satan. Peter denied Jesus 3 times and yet Jesus supposedly built his church on that 'rock'. Satan can be any person who stands as an adversary. Im sure that in the Hebrew bible the angel that block the path of Balaams ass is described as a satan. This was the first use of that name!

 

Balaam and the Adversary (jesuswordsonly.com)

 

Its amusing how you label me as you are basically all of the things you judge me as.

 

Maybe in light of that link I am the satan against your hypocrisy, lol

Edited January 21, 2021 by MarpatV2

[EnigmaticWorld]

36 minutes ago, Truthspoon said:

intolerant

 

Tolerance isn't a Christian virtue. Tolerating grave evil within society is the evil, yet most western nations have been very tolerant.

 

“Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society.”

― Aristotle

[Truthspoon]

2 hours ago, EnigmaticWorld said:

 

Tolerance isn't a Christian virtue. Tolerating grave evil within society is the evil, yet most western nations have been very tolerant.

 

“Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society.”

― Aristotle

 

I'm not entirely sure Aristotle actually said that, and I certainly don't think 'tolerance' had the same potentially negative connotations then as it does now.

 

In any case, being intolerant isn't a virtue. We are broadly different and we put up with each others' differences, at least that's how civilised society works.

 

Tolerance has a new meaning now, one alien to me, it means accepting trannies in your kids' schools and welcoming refugees. These are all new and alien concepts and ideas for which 'tolerance' does not apply because the word has never been used in the context before. I will stick the old definition. 

 

Marpat is classically intolerant. He has the witchfinder attitude. Give people like this power and they will burn heretics regardless of the faith being followed.  This is why all he does is talk about Christianity, something he hates, and is trying to root out and persecute heretics who differ from his opinions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Truthspoon

[MarpatV2]

11 minutes ago, Truthspoon said:

 

I'm not entirely sure Aristotle actually said that, and I certainly don't think 'tolerance' had the same potentially negative connotations then as it does now.

 

In any case, being intolerant isn't a virtue. We are broadly different and we put up with each others' differences, at least that's how civilised society works.

 

Tolerance has a new meaning now, one alien to me, it means accepting trannies in your kids' schools and welcoming refugees. These are all new and alien concepts and ideas for which 'tolerance' does not apply because the word has never been used in the context before. I will stick the old definition. 

 

Marpat is classically intolerant. He has the witchfinder attitude. Give people like this power and they will burn heretics regardless of the faith being followed.  This is why all he does is talk about Christianity, something he hates, and is trying to root out and persecute heretics who differ from his opinions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lol, depends on what subject we discuss. My tolerances vary according to peoples attitudes.

 

Trying to demonise me? I am not arsed what religion you follow but it just narks me when people try to force their religion onto other, using bible quotes, etc. I dont have a religion as such, so I cant be pushing one.

[EnigmaticWorld]

2 minutes ago, MarpatV2 said:

Lol, depends on what subject we discuss. My tolerances vary according to peoples attitudes.

 

Trying to demonise me? I am not arsed what religion you follow but it just narks me when people try to force their religion onto other, using bible quotes, etc. I dont have a religion as such, so I cant be pushing one.

 

How does one force a religion on someone with quotes? Can you elaborate?

[MarpatV2]

Just now, EnigmaticWorld said:

 

How does one force a religion on someone with quotes? Can you elaborate?

By telling others that the bible is the only truth, then quoting passages from it. Eg, many religious people are intolerant of gays and will quote Deuteronomy where it says gays are an abomination. Against other religions they will quote the first commandment. Then they remind them that the threat of disbelief is to go to hell, etc. I'm quite sure you know the drill the fundies follow.

[EnigmaticWorld]

Just now, MarpatV2 said:

By telling others that the bible is the only truth, then quoting passages from it. Eg, many religious people are intolerant of gays and will quote Deuteronomy where it says gays are an abomination. Against other religions they will quote the first commandment. Then they remind them that the threat of disbelief is to go to hell, etc. I'm quite sure you know the drill the fundies follow.

 

Why so mad at Christians then? All I see is churches embracing homosexuality these days.

[MarpatV2]

2 minutes ago, EnigmaticWorld said:

 

Why so mad at Christians then? All I see is churches embracing homosexuality these days.

All of them? Im quite sure its variable.

 

I find them irritating for many reasons.

 

The fact is, those rules were meant to keep the birth rate up in a desert tribe, whose survival depended on having lots of kids. So many of the rules would seem to be more about general living than divine commands but Im quite sure the scribes understood that if they claim divine origin that people will feel more compelled to follow them.

[MarpatV2]

Anyhoo, the fact is the bible never started as a book. Its is a collection of books that differs according to the traditions. Many have been pushed out.

[Truthspoon]

16 minutes ago, MarpatV2 said:

By telling others that the bible is the only truth, then quoting passages from it. Eg, many religious people are intolerant of gays and will quote Deuteronomy where it says gays are an abomination. Against other religions they will quote the first commandment. Then they remind them that the threat of disbelief is to go to hell, etc. I'm quite sure you know the drill the fundies follow.

 

But the Bible also says you shouldn't burn your children alive in weird pagan rituals.

 

Do you disagree with this too?

 

On a side note, homosexuality in the ancient world was synonymous with paedophilia, since after the example of the Greeks there was an initiatory phase involving a child not yet a man who is 'seduced' by an older man who becomes his tutor and companion. Things are hardly different now since every homosexual I would bet, was 'initiated' into homosexuality by being a victim of paedophilia. 

 

This is one example of why a rule against homosexuality might be a good thing.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Truthspoon

[MarpatV2]

Just now, Truthspoon said:

 

But the Bible also says you shouldn't burn your children alive in weird pagan rituals.

 

Do you disagree with this too?

Its doesnt say that at all and I even gave you a link to the article that states clearly that the rabbinical teachings dont say its that.

 

You just want people to believe an unproven claim to demonise other ancient cultures.

 

The bible say you will not allow you children to pass through the fire, which would have been part of a protective rite. It does not say you will not sacrifice your children.

 

Judaism came from paganism. 

[MarpatV2]

5 minutes ago, Truthspoon said:

 

But the Bible also says you shouldn't burn your children alive in weird pagan rituals.

 

Do you disagree with this too?

 

On a side note, homosexuality in the ancient world was synonymous with paedophilia, since after the example of the Greeks there was an initiatory phase involving a child not yet a man who is 'seduced' by an older man who becomes his tutor and companion. Things are hardly different now since every homosexual I would bet, was 'initiated' into homosexuality by being a victim of paedophilia. 

 

This is one example of why a rule against homosexuality might be a good thing.

Proof?

[Truthspoon]

8 minutes ago, MarpatV2 said:

Its doesnt say that at all and I even gave you a link to the article that states clearly that the rabbinical teachings dont say its that.

 

You just want people to believe an unproven claim to demonise other ancient cultures.

 

The bible say you will not allow you children to pass through the fire, which would have been part of a protective rite. It does not say you will not sacrifice your children.

 

Judaism came from paganism. 

 

 

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it even enter My mind.

 

Ezekiel 20:26
And I pronounced them unclean through their gifts--the sacrifice of every firstborn in the fire--so that I might devastate them, in order that they would know that I am the LORD.

 

Leviticus 20:2
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

 

Deuteronomy 12:31
Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

 

Deuteronomy 18:10
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Truthspoon

[Truthspoon]

I don't want people to believe anything, it's up to them......  I never preach Christianity either.........

 

It's only you who seems obsessed with it.

[Truthspoon]

11 minutes ago, MarpatV2 said:

Proof?

 

https://www.truthspoon.com/p/hidden-rituals-of-old-gods.html

 

Human sacrifice was carried out extensively in the ancient world, for example, upon the death of high ranking Egyptian dignitaries, those who served them on life were ritually murdered that they might continue to serve them in death. Carthage, the ancient rival to Rome's power in modern day Tunisia, was widely criticised in the ancient world for the existence of Tophets (roasting places) were children were sacrificed to Bal. It is reported by Diodorus Siculus that: "There was in their city a bronze image of Cronus (Saturn) extending its hands, palms up and sloping toward the ground, so that each of the children when placed thereon rolled down and fell into a sort of gaping pit filled with fire."

 

“They have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I did not command them, nor did it come into My heart. - Jer 7:31”

 

Matthew Henry, born in 1662, was a presbytarian minster and was famous for his Bible commentaries, as he comments on Jeremiah chapter 7 verse 31 which highlights the abominable acts of the pagan Canaanites in their service to Baal:

They have particularly built the high places of Tophet, where the image of Moloch was set up, in the valley of the son of Hinnom, adjoining to Jerusalem; and there they burnt their sons and their daughters in the fire, burnt them alive, killed them, and killed them in the most cruel manner imaginable, to honour or appease those idols that were devils and not gods. This was surely the greatest instance that ever was of the power of Satan in the children of disobedience, and of the degeneracy and corruption of the human nature. One would willingly hope that there were not many instances of such a barbarous idolatry; but it is amazing that there should be any, that men could be so perfectly void of natural affection as to do a thing so inhuman as to burn little innocent children, and their own too, that they should be so perfectly void of natural religion as to think it lawful to do this, nay, to think it acceptable. Surely it was in a way of righteous judgment, because they had changed the glory of God into the similitude of a beast, that God gave them up to such vile affections that changed them into worse than beasts. God says of this that it was what he commanded them not, neither cam it into his heart, which is not meant of his not commanding them thus to worship Moloch (this he had expressly forbidden them), but he had never commanded that his worshippers should be at such an expense, nor put such a force upon their natural affection, in honouring him; it never came into his heart to have children offered to him, yet they had forsaken his service for the service of such gods as, by commanding this, showed themselves to be indeed enemies to mankind." - Matthew Henry

Child sacrifice was also practiced in Arabia before the arrival of Mohamed and Islam, as is made clear from of the Qu'ran surah 6 verse 137:

"Thus were the idol worshipers duped by their idols, to the extent of killing their own children. In fact, their idols inflict great pain upon them, and confuse their religion for them. Had GOD willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications."

 

[MarpatV2]

5 minutes ago, Truthspoon said:

 

 

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it even enter My mind.

 

Ezekiel 20:26
And I pronounced them unclean through their gifts--the sacrifice of every firstborn in the fire--so that I might devastate them, in order that they would know that I am the LORD.

 

Leviticus 20:2
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

 

Deuteronomy 12:31
Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

 

Deuteronomy 18:10
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 

Ba'al is not molech. Maybe burning with fire is symbolic for some form of dedication to a fire god? maybe they were given a brand of some sort? 

 

Isnt it odd that Abram was basically going to kill his own first born until he was told to stop? banging his sister as well, is that a good thing?

 

Giving seed to molech, as stated before, was about impregnating pagan women.

 

Those parts of deuteronomy were only attested to after the Babylon exile, when the jews  sort to reform their religion and get rid of 'foreign' practises.

 

If the rabbis are saying that it wasnt about child sacrifice, using those same rules, then why are you trying to push that it is?

 

Note that molech is only mentioned a few times in the bible and NOWHERE else.

[Truthspoon]

https://www.truthspoon.com/p/hidden-rituals-of-old-gods.html

 

The following extract from Walter Burkert and John Raffan's excellent book Greek Religion: archaic and classical, depicts the institutionalisation of the myth pederasty Gods such as Poseidon and Zeus, into civil life:

 

"Fully fledged initiation rituals are known from Dorian Crete and from Sparta. For Crete, the principal source is a fourth century report by Ephorus, who already attests the decline of the custom. Men are organised in clubs which meet regularly for communal meals (syssitia) in the men's hall (andreion) at public expense. Boys who have outgrown childhood are first summoned to the men's hall in order to perform menial services; clad in simple robes they sit on the floor. What appeared as a scandal to the other Greeks was the institutionalized homosexuality: a man from the men's hall would carry off a beautiful boy, as Zeus carried off Ganymede. For the chosen lad this actually meant a distinction. The man made known his intention in advance, and the boy's relatives arranged for a mock pursuit that ended at the men's hall. Presents were then distributed, and the man with his boy, accompanied for some distance by his now gift-leden pursuers, retired in some place in the countryside for two months. The days were spent in hunting and feasting. Finally the lover had to present the boy with a warrior's robe, an ox, and a wine cup; thus he was dismissed, being now famous, kleinos."

[MarpatV2]

1 minute ago, Truthspoon said:

https://www.truthspoon.com/p/hidden-rituals-of-old-gods.html

 

The following extract from Walter Burkert and John Raffan's excellent book Greek Religion: archaic and classical, depicts the institutionalisation of the myth pederasty Gods such as Poseidon and Zeus, into civil life:

 

"Fully fledged initiation rituals are known from Dorian Crete and from Sparta. For Crete, the principal source is a fourth century report by Ephorus, who already attests the decline of the custom. Men are organised in clubs which meet regularly for communal meals (syssitia) in the men's hall (andreion) at public expense. Boys who have outgrown childhood are first summoned to the men's hall in order to perform menial services; clad in simple robes they sit on the floor. What appeared as a scandal to the other Greeks was the institutionalized homosexuality: a man from the men's hall would carry off a beautiful boy, as Zeus carried off Ganymede. For the chosen lad this actually meant a distinction. The man made known his intention in advance, and the boy's relatives arranged for a mock pursuit that ended at the men's hall. Presents were then distributed, and the man with his boy, accompanied for some distance by his now gift-leden pursuers, retired in some place in the countryside for two months. The days were spent in hunting and feasting. Finally the lover had to present the boy with a warrior's robe, an ox, and a wine cup; thus he was dismissed, being now famous, kleinos."

I see you keep editing your earlier posts to bring them into line with your later posts.

[Truthspoon]

 

Ba'aal IS Molech.  Both words mean Lord.

 

Molech comes from Malek, Lord. 

Molech is the North African term while Baal is the Levantine term.  Both North Africans of Carthage and the Canaanites of the Levant are the same people, having established Carthage as a colony of Phoenicia.

 

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Truthspoon

[MarpatV2]

4 minutes ago, Truthspoon said:

 

https://www.truthspoon.com/p/hidden-rituals-of-old-gods.html

 

Human sacrifice was carried out extensively in the ancient world, for example, upon the death of high ranking Egyptian dignitaries, those who served them on life were ritually murdered that they might continue to serve them in death. Carthage, the ancient rival to Rome's power in modern day Tunisia, was widely criticised in the ancient world for the existence of Tophets (roasting places) were children were sacrificed to Bal. It is reported by Diodorus Siculus that: "There was in their city a bronze image of Cronus (Saturn) extending its hands, palms up and sloping toward the ground, so that each of the children when placed thereon rolled down and fell into a sort of gaping pit filled with fire."

 

“They have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I did not command them, nor did it come into My heart. - Jer 7:31”

 

Matthew Henry, born in 1662, was a presbytarian minster and was famous for his Bible commentaries, as he comments on Jeremiah chapter 7 verse 31 which highlights the abominable acts of the pagan Canaanites in their service to Baal:

They have particularly built the high places of Tophet, where the image of Moloch was set up, in the valley of the son of Hinnom, adjoining to Jerusalem; and there they burnt their sons and their daughters in the fire, burnt them alive, killed them, and killed them in the most cruel manner imaginable, to honour or appease those idols that were devils and not gods. This was surely the greatest instance that ever was of the power of Satan in the children of disobedience, and of the degeneracy and corruption of the human nature. One would willingly hope that there were not many instances of such a barbarous idolatry; but it is amazing that there should be any, that men could be so perfectly void of natural affection as to do a thing so inhuman as to burn little innocent children, and their own too, that they should be so perfectly void of natural religion as to think it lawful to do this, nay, to think it acceptable. Surely it was in a way of righteous judgment, because they had changed the glory of God into the similitude of a beast, that God gave them up to such vile affections that changed them into worse than beasts. God says of this that it was what he commanded them not, neither cam it into his heart, which is not meant of his not commanding them thus to worship Moloch (this he had expressly forbidden them), but he had never commanded that his worshippers should be at such an expense, nor put such a force upon their natural affection, in honouring him; it never came into his heart to have children offered to him, yet they had forsaken his service for the service of such gods as, by commanding this, showed themselves to be indeed enemies to mankind." - Matthew Henry

Child sacrifice was also practiced in Arabia before the arrival of Mohamed and Islam, as is made clear from of the Qu'ran surah 6 verse 137:

"Thus were the idol worshipers duped by their idols, to the extent of killing their own children. In fact, their idols inflict great pain upon them, and confuse their religion for them. Had GOD willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications."

 

The opinions of a minister do not count as proof.

[MarpatV2]

1 minute ago, Truthspoon said:

 

Ba'aal IS Molech.  Both words mean Lord.

 

Molech comes from Malek, Lord. 

 

 

 

No, Moloch means king.

Edited January 21, 2021 by MarpatV2