Who is God?

[novymir]

deleted

Edited November 13, 2020 by novymir
delete doublepost

[novymir]

 

[killing raven sun]

wow, way to spam up the thread, you must think you are pretty hot shit posting teh metallica vids, lol

[novymir]

yeah, yeah, right...

[pi3141]

On 11/12/2020 at 1:40 PM, killing raven sun said:

i would extend the universal spirit to include rocks and air, fire and subatomic particles, everything

 

this is known as "animism", that all matter contains life spirit

 

Oh yes I agree, I'm reading up a bit on Alchemy and that is their belief - everything contains a spirit of the divine and even rocks are just energy with a divine spark in a different state of evolution.

 

 

[pi3141]

On 11/12/2020 at 1:40 PM, killing raven sun said:

yes, that passage is quite confusing

 

but consider that earth humans are not the only conscious beings in the universe, there is little chance that earth is the only planet in the whole universe that has life, the idea is preposterous

 

yahweh was quite clearly a flesh being, so were the elohim, they are described as such several times in the old testament, and yes, they were male and female, that part got lost in a male dominated world

 

probably, but aliens almost exactly like us, that is what they knew to create, the difference being we were created from earth

 

Yeah its them aliens again! Even the Koran say's "there are other worlds" presumably with other creations on it. It would be extremely short sighted of us to believe (as the church did) that we are the only ones in an infinite universe.

 

Definitely agree that there were male and female Gods and that the female God has been suppressed - wasn't she incorrectly translated as 'God's heavenly host" It also goes along with nature that there should be male and female Gods - this mystic talk of God being a hermaphrodite is ridiculous, again, male dominated interpretations of the Bible.

[Truthspoon]

26 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

 

Yeah its them aliens again! Even the Koran say's "there are other worlds" presumably with other creations on it. It would be extremely short sighted of us to believe (as the church did) that we are the only ones in an infinite universe.

 

Definitely agree that there were male and female Gods and that the female God has been suppressed - wasn't she incorrectly translated as 'God's heavenly host" It also goes along with nature that there should be male and female Gods - this mystic talk of God being a hermaphrodite is ridiculous, again, male dominated interpretations of the Bible.

 

 

If you're going to talk about 'female Gods' then you're no longer talking about God.

This is just the kind of moral chaos that the NWO order would like us to return to....

 

Basically spiritually disempower us by getting us wrapped up in second hand delusions rather than universal absolutes...

 

I dunno...... I don't get how people don't get this....

 

I wrote an article about this kind of thinking and where it leads:

 

https://www.truthspoon.com/p/cult-of-sacred-feminine.html

 

Quote

Sex Cults of the Sacred Feminine.

 

A great deal of misguided new-agers and practicing feminists believe in the cult of the sacred feminine. In recent times this idea gained some mainstream exposure with the release of Dan Brown’s the Da-Vinci Code, which took ideas from Freemason Michael Baigent’s and Lincoln’s book ‘Holy Blood Holy Grail’ which sought to show that Da Vinci encoded the secret of Mary Magdalen’s relationship with Jesus and made a case that the sacred feminine was part of early Christianity which had been ruthlessly suppressed by the Catholic church.

Their ideas of the ‘sacred feminine’ are usually half formed and nebulous and don’t really contain any solid thesis, except the one thing they tend to agree on is that whatever the sacred feminine was, the evil Catholic Church suppressed it.

 

I am not here going to argue against the ‘evilness’ of the Catholic Church, I am in full agreement that this indeed an evil institution, but part of its evil is ironically not because it suppressed the sacred feminine but precisely because it reveres it.
 

The Catholic Church is a cult which specifically deifies the female, in exactly the same way as the cults of the ancient world. Within Catholicism Mary is exalted far beyond Jesus as the ‘mother of God’ and clearly, if the Catholic dogma states that Jesus was God on Earth then Mary as his mother, would figuratively and literally be the ‘mother of God’.

Clearly then, Mary ‘outranks’ Jesus in whatever imaginary pantheon the Catholics were operating from when they draw up their Catechism, and their litany of prayers calling for the intercession of Mary.

Of course, the nature of Jesus’ relationship with ‘God’ is much more subtle than the dogma of the church and there was much blood spilt over a precisely rigid definition of the nature of Jesus’ Godhood when this wasn’t really the point.

In the Ancient world the sacred Feminine was wholeheartedly celebrated and celebrated in a variety of cults. These cults celebrated the Goddesses known under various names but essentially they were different elements of the same Goddess. They were usually sexual in nature, because obviously once one starts to make spirituality a matter of gender, ie ‘cult of the feminine’ then evidently one is dealing with sexuality.

This is a key point the silly sausages blabbing about sacred feminine this and sacred feminine that miss, or aren’t really capable of understanding, is that as soon as one starts to bring sexual gender into discussion then one is literally and obviously focusing on sex. And so it was and is. The feminine cults of the ancient world all focused, to the exclusion of other more interesting spiritual matters, on sex.

 

The Cult of Venus was all about sex. The cult of Cybele was all about sex. The cult of Ishtar was all about sex. The cult of Venus demanded that women prostitute themselves on the steps of the temple in order to be protected in society by the cult. The cult of Cybele demanded that men castrate themselves on the steps of the temple to serve as the eunuchs to officiate over the sexual rites. The Catholic church, in its guise of cult of the sacred feminine as Mary mother of God demanded that virgin nuns give up their virginity to ‘God’ ie: the priests, and ritually sacrifice any unwanted children to be buried on the grounds of the nunnery.

This is what is really meant by sacred feminine. Just as any religion which claimed to be about the ‘sacred masculine’ would obviously be focusses on the phallus and sex. Any cult which reveres the ‘sacred feminine’ is going to necessarily interest itself with the mythos and metaphysics of the generative principal, because that’s what gender is on an unavoidably fundamental level. Which is precisely why it is so ‘unspiritual’ to genderize spirituality and anyone who tries to do so is deliberately misleading you and most likely, trying to suck you into some kind of sex cult.

So be warned, witches, wannabees and feminists. Get smart. You have to leave your dick or pussy behind in the next world. There’s no meat in heaven. Neither blood sausage, fresh fish nor young chicken.

One could argue that in today’s society the knowledge of the sacred feminine principle is oppressed, in the way that society and the media seems reluctant to acknowledge that females can be just as aggressive and destructive as feminists tell us men are. The Ancients knew that women and females harboured a terrible potentially destructive power within them, one that at times, could breach all ability to moderate and pacify it, hell hath no fury and all that.

 

It is for this reason that the female Goddess Sekhmet was depicted as a female lion and in her irrational destructive rages was said to turn rivers red with blood and had to be tricked and appeased to control her wrath. A special beer was brewed and used in one ancient ritual and this was poured into the river until it resembled blood and this was said to calm the ferocious spirit of Sekhmet.

Hathor and Nut the cow Goddesses, evoke the wild female cows of the marshes of Northern Egypt, who when disturbed by mere humans, would charge all in a wild rage and send all to rout. The Ancient Egyptian pantheon did not appear ready-made at some remote point in history, but gradually developed and became refined.

 

Among the early archetypal Gods and Goddesses was Nut, Nut was the night sky and was seen as inherently feminine, perhaps why the word Night is feminine in Germanic, Gallic, Urdu, Hindi, Slavic and all the Romance languages. Night was seen by the Egyptians not as an absence of sunlight, but as a medium in itself, like the idea of the aether, and modern science is steadily accepting the idea that space itself is not a void but a medium formed by the zero point field of constantly vibrating energy, this energy very likely creates the vacuum as a ‘space’ in reality, the Casimir effect demonstrates the existence of this vacuum zero point energy, a protecting all-encompassing mother in whom one could take refuge, as the Egyptians believed, by ascending a special ladder.

One could form a hypothesis about the true nature of God being energy and that the different Gods and Goddess of the ancient world were just different forms and concentrations of energy. Nut is an embodiment of the vacuum of space in which the Earth lies cradled, as if nurtured within some great cosmic womb, and hence the feminine aspect of ‘night’. The vacuum is an energy field which allows the propagation of light and energy cannot travel without a medium. The presence of the Goddess lies within the vibrating field of the positronic and anti-particles which scientists now believe give the vacuum its reality and creates ‘space’ as we know it, that is distance and separation.

Heaven and the nature of God in ancient Egypt seemed to focus on the sun and my own previous book entitled Light in the Darkness attempted to demonstrate that the sun is an energy portal into the quantum subatomic realm to infinity and, to quote Buzz Lightyear, beyond.

In his book Ancient Egypt, historian and Christian theologian George Rawlinson suggests that the Ancient Egyptians also had this view that the sun was a portal through which they passed in order to enter the next dimension:

“Thoth standing by the while, with a tablet in his hand, whereon to record the result. According to the side on which the balance inclined, Osiris, the president, delivered sentence. If the good deeds preponderated, the blessed soul was allowed to enter the "boat of the Sun," Aahlu (Elysium), to the "pools of peace"..”

The energy of the Goddess Nut is physically manifested as the constant creation and annihilation of matter and antimatter pairs of particles which presumably creates a vibration or lateral 4 dimensional pulse which is the nature of the underlying zero point energy of the universe. A constant ripple throughout the whole universe like an endless black sea upon which light itself travels in its eternal frozen moment, a bright instant of light and energy like an intergalactic superhighway, ferrying consciousness and the souls of the myriad beings surfing the sea of the Duat.

The English word Night, the French word Nuit and the Germanic word Not all evoke the name of the Goddess Nut which became the Latin word Nox and the Greek Goddess Nyx who is incidentally the mother of the deities of sleep (Hypnos) and death (Thanatos), as if somehow in sleep and death, we return into the realm of darkness. In ancient Egypt the ‘Underworld’ or Duat was simultaneously the realm of darkness, divided into hours, as in the Egyptian book of the Dead, and also the realm of the dead. So the initiatic ordeal of Unas for instance, as depicted on the walls of the tomb of Unas in Sakarra, took place both at night and simultaneously, in the realm of the dead which it was necessary for him to pass through until emerging into the light, which is the actual real name of the Book of the Dead: The Book of Coming Forth by Day.

In Norse mythology the goddess of the Night was known as Nott, and this is again the same fundamental archetypal Goddess as that of the Greek Roman and Egyptian deities. Ultimately all of these Goddesses of ancient Egypt were all elements of the fundamental female Goddess Isis. Isis has all the abilities and attributes of Sekhmet and Hathor combined. Isis, is said to be able to dispel storms like Sekhmet who was a warrior Goddess and also a goddess of healing. Her image statue was said to be secretly coated with anthrax by the priests and anyone who dared to profane her presence by touching her statue would shortly be struck down and die, apparently from the power of Sekhmet’s curse. Statues of Sekhmet were found all over Egypt and it is hard now to see them in the same way the ancient Egyptians saw them. They would have evoked terror since anyone who approached Sekhmet was stricken down with a curse, caused by the anthrax virus which was painted onto the surface of statues of Sekhmet to strike down anyone who dare be so importune as to touch her.

The sistrum was associated with Sekhmet and Isis just as it is with Ishtar. The sistrum was a hand-held metal percussion instrument which would produce a sound when shaken and so closely was the Sistrum identified with Sekhmet that the sistrum’s name in ancient Egyptian was Sekhem which means ‘power’. Shaking the sistrum was not merely a musical act, it was a magical one, somewhat like waving a magic wand, of course it is hard for the modern reader again to properly imagine or visualize the power of the Sekhem when it was shaken because we have a different set of beliefs about the forces which govern the universe, but imagine in the absence of our modern science and indeed any of the developments and understandings which we have developed over the years and imagine that you genuinely believed that a shaken sistrum had a profound power, just as when you were a child and saw a magician shake his magic wand and make something disappear in a puff of smoke you might not have known that what you were seeing was an illusion. So too with the ancient world. There was a lot of illusion but the point was that the people believed the illusion and believing the illusion gives it an extra element of power in reality which makes it real.

This is the key to ritual in the ancient world. An illusion or trick was necessary and commonly used to create the willing suspension of disbelief which would then give the ritual the power it needed to potentially manifest actual magical events and spiritual occurrences. Much like the battery which is necessary to create the spark to start the engine of a car. The illusion is the spark which catches the minds of the ritual’s participants to power the unfolding events, whatever they might have been.

On the internet there is a great deal of cyber blather about Isis, sheer new-age twaddle of the most naïve and uninformed kind. One website, The Hermetic Fellowship in particular has invented a silly liturgy with lots of ‘thees’ and ‘thine’ because of course, magical practitioners are on very informal terms with ancient Egyptian deities. The online text invites ISIS to possess the person in question, and this could be problematic since chanting loudly facing the East asking ISIS to ‘come in’ may risk a visit from the anti-terrorism unit of MI5 depending on how effective their surveillance technology is.

Adam Weishaupt himself understood the true covert power of women which has now become an overt power and is turning the world on its head and in his Bavarian Illuminati women were also enlisted. He wrote: “There is no way of influencing men so powerful, as by means of women. These should therefore be our chief study; we should insinuate ourselves into their good opinion, give them hints of emancipation from the tyranny of public opinion, and of standing up for themselves...” He also wrote: “This sex has a large part of the world in their hands.” Female members were divided into two groups: one group of society women, to give the organization an air of respectability; and the other group “who would help to satisfy those brothers who have a penchant for pleasure.” The Illuminati also used monetary and sex bribery to gain control of men in high places, then blackmailed them with the threat of financial ruin, public exposure, and fear of death.
On page 296 of Nesta Webster’s Secret Societies and Subversive Movements we see the possibility of a connection between Freemasonry and Feminism and it is my certain conviction that the Freemasons have harnessed the potentially destructive power of female irrationality under the guise of empowering women by creating Feminism which is presently destroying the ethical, moral and cultural codes of any country which fervently adopts it.

“The first and only woman to be admitted into real Masonry, if such a term can be applied to so heterogeneous a system, was Maria Deraismes, an ardent French Feminist celebrated for her political speeches and electioneering campaigns in the district of Pontoise and for twenty-five years the acknowledged leader of the anti-clerical and Feminist party. In 1882 Maria Deraismes was initiated into Freemasonry by the members of the Lodge Les Libres Penseurs, deriving from the Grande Loge Symbolique Écossaise and situated at Le Pecq in the Department of Seine-et-Oise. The proceeding being, however, entirely unconstitutional, Maria Deraismes's initiation was declared by the Grande Loge to be null and void and the Lodge Les Libres Penseurs was disgraced. But some years afterwards Dr. George Martin, an enthusiastic advocate of votes for women, collaborated with Maria Deraismes in founding the Maçonnerie Mixte at the first lodge of the Order named ‘Le Droit Humain.’ The Suprême Conseil Universel Mixte was founded in 1899”

Feminism’s moral high-ground combined with the deference which society and men give women, is leading to the complete loss of all moral and common sense and female feminists seem to be leading the charge to normalize trans-genderism (an occult ritualized fetish from the Sumerian rites of the Goddess Inanna) mass-immigration and demonizing the white-male. This sustained attack on white men by Feminists is a threat to the very continuation of human civilization itself since it was white men who founded our civilization and who keep the wheels turning. If these people are deposed, which is an effort which is currently underway and is an attack being spearheaded by women under the flag of Feminism, then the world of convenience they enjoy will be stripped from them and everything we have now and take for granted, will be gone. It may seem a long shot but there are plenty of precedents for the sudden destruction of hitherto stable advanced civilizations.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Truthspoon

[pi3141]

5 minutes ago, Truthspoon said:

I wrote an article about this kind of thinking and where it leads:

 

https://www.truthspoon.com/p/cult-of-sacred-feminine.html

 

Cheers - I'll take a look.

[killing raven sun]

On 11/13/2020 at 6:02 AM, pi3141 said:

It also goes along with nature that there should be male and female Gods - this mystic talk of God being a hermaphrodite is ridiculous, again, male dominated interpretations of the Bible.

yes, the natural world is the true word of god, if you read something that goes against nature you can dismiss it outright as lies

 

when "god"(yahweh) and the elohim created mankind in their own image it is clear that the gods were male and female, to think otherwise is to deny nature

 

humans are male and female

 

only a male and a female can reproduce, or create new life, that is the natural order, so it extends back to the gods by association

 

those that attempt to villify the female aspect of humanity or god are doing the devils work, they spread lies for personal gain, they exploit their sisters without care, avoid them at all cost

[Traveller]

In the Dao De Jing, there's a line:

 

The Dao gives birth to Unity

Unity gives birth to Duality

Duality give birth to Trinity

Trinity gives birth to the 10,000 things

 

It also says that the Dao is older than God and that it was never born and so can never die.

 

I've heard this elsewhere put forward as The Ground.

 

I'd guess that Unity is God and gave birth to the Universe. I'm unsure whether the Universe is therefore Duality and proceeds from God as opposed to directly being God. Obviously it contains Unity but has dark and light (duality).

 

Trinity, I'm guessing is Mankind that gives birth to children and the 10,000 things. Happy to hear other thoughts on this passage as I'm in no way sure.

 

It is said that the "Master" (realised soul) knows that the Universe is forever out of control. I'm guessing that even God acts according to what's presented by The Dao.

 

What is The Dao? It appears to emanate, as far as I can tell, from Absolute Nothingness. Just like the space in the cup allows the cup to exist and be of use, nothingness allows there to be a something. Unlike the space in the cup, which actually contains air etc so is only relatively "nothing" compared to the cup, this is absolute nothingness. No space even.

 

Zero contains all numbers and One/Unity/God follows it. Without absolute nothingness, the notion of an infinite Unity/verse would not be possible and anything less than that would be limited and therefore impossible, I'd guess. I find the notion of infinite life to be mind bending but also that anything less would be impossible.

 

God is the child of The Dao in this understanding, if I have it correct and without wanting to label it specifically.

[Given To Fly]

On 11/13/2020 at 2:27 PM, Truthspoon said:

 

 

If you're going to talk about 'female Gods' then you're no longer talking about God.

This is just the kind of moral chaos that the NWO order would like us to return to....

 

Basically spiritually disempower us by getting us wrapped up in second hand delusions rather than universal absolutes...

 

I dunno...... I don't get how people don't get this....

 

I wrote an article about this kind of thinking and where it leads:

 

https://www.truthspoon.com/p/cult-of-sacred-feminine.html

 

 

 

 

chaos is the term. flapping about worshipping plurality which opens unseen doors and degradation hence the shite that we're in with deliberate assistance of celeb culture espousing thus.

i think it's so transparent.

 

THERE IS AN ABSOLUTE.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Given To Fly

[rideforever]

13 minutes ago, Traveller said:

The Dao

 

The Tao begot one.
One begot two.
Two begot three.
And three begot the ten thousand things.
The ten thousand things carry yin and embrace yang.
They achieve harmony by combining these forces.

 

 

This is a description of the generation of the universe.   The order is:

0 : absolute void

1 : absolute presence

2 : yin/yang cycle

3 : offspring of yin/yang

10,000 : the many items in the universe

 

There is a void called dao (which is like the yin aspect of the source) and the counterpart 1 which is the yang aspect.   Looking more closely at the presence, we see that it is actually a yin-yang cycle, cycling endless from one to the other, and this cycling is creative.   Hence man and woman have children.  Or that the cycling of the seasons on earth there is a harvest every autumn.  The cycling is creative ... i.e. 2 gives birth to 3.

As we move further and further from the source so there arrives countless things in the universe, the 10,000.   Now we are so far from the source it is difficult to see any order, it has spiraliled into disorder.

 

But the 10,000 things " achieve harmony by combining these forces" ... hence traditional marriage and the traditional structure of society.   These bring order in the outer world of earth, by recreating the structure of the Source.   Therefore all things that humans create should always be recreating that structure.   This is understood for instance in the politics of "Tradition".  When you build a house, administer a nation, have a marriage ... all should reflect that structure.

 

Later it also says that when yin and yang separate then death follows.  I say this in reference to the "rainbow".

 

The spirituality of the Tao is actually similar to Christianity, which focus on the absolute void  0.  The spirituality of India is focussing on the 1, the male presence aspect.   Both are two sides of the coin of the source.

 

The text also says that the sage realises that people are "straw dogs".

 

In Qigong which I practice the root back to the source is through the Wuxing, or 5 elements, which is basically the Yin Yang.  You return t the Yin Yang (2), and then once that is achieved, you then move to 1 and then finally to 0 and you are merged with the Source and no longer have birth.

 

[Traveller]

7 minutes ago, rideforever said:

But the 10,000 things " achieve harmony by combining these forces" ... hence traditional marriage and the traditional structure of society.   These bring order in the outer world of earth, by recreating the structure of the Source.   Therefore all things that humans create should always be recreating that structure.   This is understood for instance in the politics of "Tradition".  When you build a house, administer a nation, have a marriage ... all should reflect that structure.

 

Later it also says that when yin and yang separate then death follows.  I say this in reference to the "rainbow".

 

The spirituality of the Tao is actually similar to Christianity, which focus on the absolute void  0.  The spirituality of India is focussing on the 1, the male presence aspect.   Both are two sides of the coin of the source.

 

The text also says that the sage realises that people are "straw dogs".

 

In Qigong which I practice the root back to the source is through the Wuxing, or 5 elements, which is basically the Yin Yang.  You return t the Yin Yang (2), and then once that is achieved, you then move to 1 and then finally to 0 and you are merged with the Source and no longer have birth.

 

 

I can't recall how to split quotes..

 

Would you say that the Void is The Holy Ghost?

 

Not sure about the idea of Tradition and traditional marriage. Humans are to balance the yin and yang/male and female in themselves as opposed to doing so with another, surely? Traditional marriage does not, as is, bring harmony and without first doing it in oneself, it cannot be done in society, which it would then do ipso facto. Are we here suggesting that anything other than man with woman is corrupted?

 

How are we interpretting "straw dogs"?

 

One meaning I found: a straw dog is a scapegoat group, place, person or idea in which we dump our evilness, so we can blame it and then by attacking, dissing or destorying it, we externalize it outside of us so we feel free of sin.

 

Another: In business, something (an idea, or plan, usually) set up to be knocked down. It's the dangerous philosophy of presenting one mediocre idea, so that the listener will make the choice of the better idea which follows.

 

I accept the notion that once you have harmonised male and female in yourself that you no longer need to rebirth though I question whether that can be achieved purely through Quigong. Without the comprehension of the workings of the mind, one will remain blocked on other levels, no?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rideforever]

@Traveller

Father, son, holy ghost : well it's a good question what it means, I am not sure but my guess is that it means the conduit between the Father and Son, or how the Soul connects to the Source.   So when a person starts to feel something happening inside him, various subtle inner things are happening, which are not exactly the Soul nor the Source, but there is an inner movement .... this is all imprecise language, but I think that's what it means.

Taoism is a spirituality based on the Tantien in the belly and so the awakening of the head / mind / consciousness is not included, or only included indirectly.   This is a particular unusual aspects of Taoism, and this is why Laotzu/ Chaungtzu speak in this strange way.   No other earth culture has really developed the Tantien.   Most work on Awareness in the head or the Heart.

 

Within one person there can be developed both "male" and "female" qualities not sexuality, but qualities.  Hence it says that the sage doesn't know the woman, but is whole, that he knows the strength of man but the care of woman.

 

Sexually speaking yes it must be traditional, otherwise it is corrupt meaning it is not a new kind of sexuality but a new insincerity.

 

Straw dogs simply means that humans, the way they live ... is chaotic, full of pride and foolishness and they are like those festival straw dogs that are burnt up in a big bonfire - I suppose in China straw dogs and lanterns are used in the festivals ... make a lot of fire and noise but then vanish never to re-appear.  The observation of the chaos of human life is covered in detail in the TTC.

 

[Traveller]

@rideforever

 

I have taught myself acupuncture and understand the basics of Tai Chi and Quigong fairly well so do, I think, have a fairly good idea of what the Tantien is. In one instance, at least, where your centre of gravity resides, or should. I'd have to diagree that Wu Wei is specfically centred there. I see Wu Wei all over the globe, including Christianity, as La Vie Negative, The Great Negation etc. I don't see their language as any different from many other proponents, across the globe, of Wu Wei. Krishnamurti is identical in my experience. The Dao De Jing seems chocker block full of how psychological thought interupts the process of seeing clearly.

 

Must one not understand the the thought process (psychological thought not practical) just so that it sees it's futility and ceases? How can pride be resolved without understanding how it came into being through fear and self interest? All of which requires logical, psychological reasoning. I question the heart based approach as it seems to seek to just obfuscate the understanding of oneself by "opening the heart" etc. Whilst the contradiction in oneself remains as to what one is and what one thinks he should be, there can be no ending of the mind clutter.

 

As for the Sage not knowing woman, I interpretted that differently.

 

Humans are only straw dogs until they're not though, I'd guess. A sickening medicine to produce a sage.

[rideforever]

@Traveller

Hmm, well all spirituality looks the same from the outside, if you are however trained in traditions then you start to see that they focus on different things.  Yes of course they are all leaving the human maya, but there is a great deal of difference from the heart, meaning the heart chakra, to Consciousness, to the Tantien.  3 different locations each with different flavour.

As for thought ... most traditions simply discard it.  But not all, some traditions work directly to awaken thought but that is also uncommon.

[killing raven sun]

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

As we move further and further from the source so there arrives countless things in the universe, the 10,000.   Now we are so far from the source it is difficult to see any order, it has spiraliled into disorder.

the universe follows natural law, it cannot deviate, if you see disorder it is a projection of your inability to understand what you see, a by-product of your negative view of life

[rideforever]

@killing raven sun

Most of the universe cannot deviate much as it is below the threshold of consciousness, that is what consciousness means the ability to deviate or use free will.

I don't have a negative view of life, just a negative view of the destructive humanity - and even that is limited.

[Traveller]

1 hour ago, rideforever said:

@Traveller

Hmm, well all spirituality looks the same from the outside, if you are however trained in traditions then you start to see that they focus on different things.  Yes of course they are all leaving the human maya, but there is a great deal of difference from the heart, meaning the heart chakra, to Consciousness, to the Tantien.  3 different locations each with different flavour.

As for thought ... most traditions simply discard it.  But not all, some traditions work directly to awaken thought but that is also uncommon.

 

I would suggest that the primary way to end sorrow is through understanding one's psychological distortions. Balancing one's yin yang through yoga or tai chi would aid this process but without clearing the mental clutter, you can train or try and open your heart all day long and this may make you a healthier, outwardly appearing more balanced subject, but I'd hazard that you won't end sorrow. Pride must be seen fior what it is.

 

By thought, I'm referring to the ending of thought. Not practical thought which is useful, necessary and causes no blocks in the spine but psychological thought- I am like this but I should like to be like that etc.. Awakening thought would be counter productive in this sense.

 

Krishnamurti, The Christian Mystical text- The Cloud of Unknowing (Wu Wei), Buddha's Way of Virtue, La Vie Negative are all about ending thought. So is, as I see it, The Dao De Jing. For instance- If you see some things as beautiful, you'll see other things as ugly. Purely psychological in that we choose to percieve by comparison. The Dao De Jing is about ending mind clutter by seeing how clarity is distorted. Not by doing anything about it- when nothing is done, nothing is left undone, but in seeing how the mental distortions arose, they end naturally. Then energy flows freely throughout the entire spine and all centres are what they are without predominance. It is psychological human conditioning that is responsible for greed, pride and all the rest of it.

 

I'm not aware of any traditions that discard thought.

[rideforever]

2 minutes ago, Traveller said:

I'm not aware of any traditions that discard thought.

 

Certainly in India all spiritual regards thought as unreal and meaningless, as the only real thing is Brahman.  Kill the ego, or the ego never existed, or nothing exists ... such ideas.

 

In China and much of the East thousands of years ago people were much more agricultural ... they did not have all thoughts and personality issues that the Western people have today, and were satisfied to just sit or sit with a teacher - it was sufficient.

 

But in the West today we are trained to life through personality and excess thinking rather than a spade and a hoe ... Western people do need the kind of work you suggest, and as much of the world has adopted Westernism most people do. 

But the TTC and Vedas come from a different age.

 

[Steph]

I don't want to offend any religious sensitivities you might have but erm ... your God.

 

Back in the Garden of Eden there was these two people who had lived in the Garden of Eden their whole life and "God" says "I created you from the dirt" and they believed him. What did they know except the Garden of Eden and God and everything that God said and ... well there's this snake. It's a very naughty snake. It says things God wouldn't approve of. You see God says that they mustn't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil because on the day they eat of the fruit they will surely die. God wouldn't lie about a thing like that would he? God created everything. Like the mainstream media, God knew everything. Who would question God? The snake!

 

So the snake is like "God is telling you a bunch of porkies. If you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil you will not die but you will become just like God is". Well Adam is like ... "The snake is lying, God wouldn't tell us that if it wasn't true" but eve is like "lets do it anyway, this Eden place is a bit boring". So they both eat the fruit and God pops round and noticed they fact that they have been nourished enough to notice their own nakedness. So God starts harrassing his prisoners and tosses them out of the Garden of Eden but interestingly, they ate of the fruit and did not surely die. People to this day say the snake is a liar. I find this very interesting given whats recounted in this ancient children tale. They say that the eating of the fruit was what caused mankind to fall but this is only one account in genesis of how mankind became fallen. This other account suggests that Adam, Eve and Yahweh were all fallen at the the time the book of genesis begins where there is a spirit of the true god hovering over the great abyss.

 

In this other account of the fall of man, there is a tale of fallen man seeking to over throw god by building a tower so high that god itself would need to bow to it. You could say that by the time Isiah and Daniel and Jesus and such like came to be that babylon's towers where somewhat successful such that when Jeses said that the generation to come would receive only the sign of Jonah - discovering themselves to be trapped in the belly of the whale - there was god, awakening under the tower of a babel.

 

Theres an ancient poem in the bible about this awakening to babelon made popular by Boney M.

 

By the rivers of Babylon where we say down, there we wept and Im sure you can recall the words yourself but they are written in the bible if you dont recall them.

 

How would it sound if my answer to your question was that you are god, but you might not realise it yet.

 

[Traveller]

6 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Certainly in India all spiritual regards thought as unreal and meaningless, as the only real thing is Brahman.  Kill the ego, or the ego never existed, or nothing exists ... such ideas.

 

In China and much of the East thousands of years ago people were much more agricultural ... they did not have all thoughts and personality issues that the Western people have today, and were satisfied to just sit or sit with a teacher - it was sufficient.

 

But in the West today we are trained to life through personality and excess thinking rather than a spade and a hoe ... Western people do need the kind of work you suggest, and as much of the world has adopted Westernism most people do. 

But the TTC and Vedas come from a different age.

 

 

Thought might be unreal once transcended but it's currently the reason you and I are not Buddhas.

 

The human condition is the same in the occident or orient. If you're not a buddha, you live in sorrow and that's due to the psychological conditioning you been unable to understand. Why else sit with a teacher if your problems were resolved? I wish it weren't so but it'd seem fairly obvious that folk in the East have been as miserable as the rest of us since day dot. To think they lived some kind of utopian ideal seems to be stretching it, if I may. To speak for them all as if there were little to no misery behind every door.. Things have certainly hotted up with westernisation. Communication has ended the more pernicious aspects of tribal culture where folk were expected to endure some kind of torturous rite of passage. If they had sorted themselves out in the East, like the Dao De Jing says, they'd be a light to the world, but they didn't and so it goes on

 

[rideforever]

@Traveller

Okay, I think you somewhat misinterpret what I am saying about those traditions ... and their views are also not the same as mine.

[Traveller]

29 minutes ago, Steph said:

How would it sound if my answer to your question was that you are god, but you might not realise it yet.

 

 

What prevents us making that realisation? Consciousness is likely one.

 

I don't expect an answer but the right question is king

Edited November 15, 2020 by Traveller

[Traveller]

Just now, rideforever said:

@Traveller

Okay, I think you somewhat misinterpret what I am saying about those traditions ... and their views are also not the same as mine.

OK cool, no worries