hello - first post, wanted to introduce my theory

[formation9]

Hello all,

I am a brand new member and have done a great deal of thinking and reading on these subjects and would like to share my opinion.

Firist, I would consider myself a 911 truther. I agree with David Icke's theories and that the official story line seems pretty implausible, but in a lot of ways I end there.

I watched David's video, Freedom or Fascism. I think he does a good job talking about current events, Blair, Bush, the Matrix, etc, but then is way too general and in fact I'd even call a large portion of the video mostly a sham. The way he attempts to tie all entire history into the illuminati seems way too ambitious, and he jumps around so much that his argument is largely incoherent when tying all the symbolism into every religion, country, and movement that has ever existed.

For instance, on this board someone states that Hitler was independent and pissed off the bankers (illuminati) with his industrial might, and therefore the Illuminati bankers took care of him. According to Ickes theory, it was all a part of the "plan."

Also, if the Illuminati was all powerful, why was the fed reserve not created until 1913? Is the fed just a theatre? According to many if not all illumanit theorists, the fed is an arm of the Illuminati.

Icke claims that the Iluminati goes back to Atlantis and basically that no empire in history has been independent of the Illumanit. How the hell does he know? If the Illuminati was that omniscient and powerful, you think David Icke is privvy to this information?

Lastly, this Matrix in the USA is so damn obvious to me that I dont see Icke breaking any ground in that arena anyway. Basically, hes right about the banks, but that knowledge is becoming pretty widespread on the net these days. The manipulation of reality is also pretty evident, and to be honest I heard the same theories in my college sociology classes years ago.

I dont know, I kind of wanted to be a believer, but Id call Icke a pretty intelligent guy. Im sure he knows that a lot of his arguments are pretty incoherent, at least in this film. Seems to be just a bit of an opportunist in my view.

Any thoughts?

[lilly555]

Firstly it's the reptilians that run the show while being cloaked as illuminati. So it wouldn't be that hard to take over everything when you aren't bound to a human body. Secondly I think that Icke retrieved a lot of his knowledge from higher beings in a state of knowing. After that he could just know if the stuff he was reading was correct. It was just obvious to him. As for Hilter, he was a pawn too. Of course they would have a reason to end him and his army. It's just what the agenda called for. As for the fed. It wasn't created before 1913 because is wasn't part of the "script" for them to do so. The illuminati are powerful, but it's still the reptilians that tell them what to do. It's just another arm of control over the economy and society. If you'er curious about this try reading his books. Or other links on his website about this stuff. That might help you connect the dots more.

[brotherapostate]

Welcome.

I understand what you are saying, but just as Icke says, just take the bits that appeal to you and throw away the rest. Nobody knows everything. There are a handful of Icke supporters that follow everything the man says, but it doesn't have to be like that.

[lilly555]

Welcome.

I understand what you are saying, but just as Icke says, just take the bits that appeal to you and throw away the rest. Nobody knows everything. There are a handful of Icke supporters that follow everything the man says, but it doesn't have to be like that.


Yeah, it's true. I don't believe every single thing that David has ever mentioned. I do think that he's correct about a lot of the illuminati and reptilian stuff though. I would suggest that you read some of the books. In video form he goes through the info so fast that it can kind of just blow by you if you're new the immence amount of info that he sends out. I would really suggest reading his books so that you could get more details in his theories and see his vast amount of evidence and sources that support his findings on these subjects. I believe that doing so would answer a lot of your questions better.

[formation9]

Welcome.

I understand what you are saying, but just as Icke says, just take the bits that appeal to you and throw away the rest. Nobody knows everything. There are a handful of Icke supporters that follow everything the man says, but it doesn't have to be like that.

Yes I hear ya, thanks for that its reasonable.

I see him as a very good introduction into this field, I guess you could call it truth studies or something like that. If you listen to what he says, he kind of poses that he answers all the questions of human kind, and in my opinion his ability to "connect the dots" falls pretty flat. Then hell say "well take from this what you will" which is pretty cool of him I think, but again bottom line is that hes here to sell books and make money. His books are just closer to the truth than you get from the mainstream media, I guess. Again I have some respect for him in some ways and hes not all bad, but a lot of the stuff he says is rather sensational, and this website is for profit, so.

Personally, I believe I have had a near death experience in this lifetime. I am excited to share specifics of it. If Icke really experienced such a higher state of being or this higher knowledge, the specifics would be the first thing hes selling since it would be such an amazing phenomenon. Thats why I dont buy a lot of what he says.

I like the categories on this board a lot though.

[brotherapostate]

The Reptillian theory is fool proof because it cannot be proven. It's important to remember that the term 'illuminati' is just that, a term. It is used to describe the Globalization of power by a group of power mad meglomaniacs who all adhere to the same agenda. I doubt they consider each other 'illuminati'; more likely that they are in unbelievable fear of what will happen to them unless they adhere to that agenda.

[formation9]

Yeah, it's true. I don't believe every single thing that David has ever mentioned. I do think that he's correct about the illuminati and reptilian stuff though. I would suggest that you read some of the books. In video form he goes through the info so fast that it can kind of just blow by you if you're new the immence amount of info that he sends out. I would really suggest reading his books so that you could get more details in his theories and see his vast amount of evidence and sources that support his findings on these subjects. I believe that doing so would answer a lot of your questions better.

Thank you, I will most certainly read his books and maybe Ill turn into a believer! Im only going off this site and this one video.

[brotherapostate]

Well Icke's vivid imagination is down to Ayahuasca and dealings with Shamans in South America, in my opinion.

Personally I think Icke is a brilliant speaker, and he just makes me laugh. To me, it's very light hearted. I keep an open mind on everything. As Pilate said; 'Truth? What is truth?'

Please do tell us about your experience.

[formation9]

Well the first thing Ill say is that I believe the NWO has largely been implemented in the United States for quite awhile, especially in the last 20 years or so.

I look around and I see fast food and pharmacies and banks, and not much else. Theyre here already!

Then I watch television and break down the propaganda, which I believe Ive gotten rather good at. A lot of the time you can see it down to the inflection of the worlds in the sit com actors voices!

What are the main goals:

1)Make you fat -> sick.
2)Make you stupid.
3)Make you a financial slave.
4)Isolate you
5)Make your relationships suck
6)Make you crazy
7)Make you a hard worker
8)Believe the official story line
9)If you step out of line, youre labeled

etc etc, this stuff happens every day!

[formation9]

About my NDE, I will explain it this way.

I suffered from a horrible depression my entire life, and finally found a medication that worked for me when I was 23 years old, Im 26 now.

After 2 years of it, it almost killed me. I lost vision in my left eye, I was told that this vision loss was permanent.

I spent almost 3 months in what my opinion was near death. I had seizures, was blacking out, felt illness like no illness I had ever felt before. 10 times worse than the worse flu.

When I came off the medication, my vision returned and I had no depression. My health largely returned, and with it came back the mental capacity I had experienced as a child.

I was a talented child, but as my depression settled in my teenage years, I lost the ability to do anything and think. It took me 5.5 years to graduate college and I barely made it through.

What happened to me is nothing short of a miracle.

I had read about NDE when I was sick and had no direction in my life before it. When my health returned, I knew exactly what my life purpose is. I will not share that part with you, but now I feel happy, can socialize with people, and have a sense of direction on purpose. Many of those who experience NDE's come out the other side with a large sense of purpose.

[brotherapostate]

Familiar with Jordan Maxwell?

[serpentoffire]

Hello all,

I am a brand new member and have done a great deal of thinking and reading on these subjects and would like to share my opinion.

...

Any thoughts?


Remember, the response is inside you ....... but unfortunately is wrong :D


http://www.ottavonano.altervista.org/Quelo.jpg

[formation9]

Familiar with Jordan Maxwell?

no I am not.

[brotherapostate]

Well your list before is right up his alley.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5368249979680883398&q=basic+slide+presentation&total=30&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Must see this video, it is from 1993, Maxwell claims to have brought Icke to America and financed him. Don't know how much truth there is in that but you cannot deny Maxwell probably knows a lot more than Icke, in fact, Icke takes a lot of work from Maxwell anyway.

[lilly555]

He does?!?!?:eek:

[adimon]

Hello all,

I am a brand new member and have done a great deal of thinking and reading on these subjects and would like to share my opinion.

Firist, I would consider myself a 911 truther. I agree with David Icke's theories and that the official story line seems pretty implausible, but in a lot of ways I end there.

I watched David's video, Freedom or Fascism. I think he does a good job talking about current events, Blair, Bush, the Matrix, etc, but then is way too general and in fact I'd even call a large portion of the video mostly a sham. The way he attempts to tie all entire history into the illuminati seems way too ambitious, and he jumps around so much that his argument is largely incoherent when tying all the symbolism into every religion, country, and movement that has ever existed.

For instance, on this board someone states that Hitler was independent and pissed off the bankers (illuminati) with his industrial might, and therefore the Illuminati bankers took care of him. According to Ickes theory, it was all a part of the "plan."

Also, if the Illuminati was all powerful, why was the fed reserve not created until 1913? Is the fed just a theatre? According to many if not all illumanit theorists, the fed is an arm of the Illuminati.

Icke claims that the Iluminati goes back to Atlantis and basically that no empire in history has been independent of the Illumanit. How the hell does he know? If the Illuminati was that omniscient and powerful, you think David Icke is privvy to this information?

Lastly, this Matrix in the USA is so damn obvious to me that I dont see Icke breaking any ground in that arena anyway. Basically, hes right about the banks, but that knowledge is becoming pretty widespread on the net these days. The manipulation of reality is also pretty evident, and to be honest I heard the same theories in my college sociology classes years ago.

I dont know, I kind of wanted to be a believer, but Id call Icke a pretty intelligent guy. Im sure he knows that a lot of his arguments are pretty incoherent, at least in this film. Seems to be just a bit of an opportunist in my view.

Any thoughts?

Hi there formation9, and welcome. :)

I have similar views to the one's you've expressed here. I agree it's a shame that Icke isn't a bit more logical and cross-referential in his approach, but he's into all that spiritual stuff aswell, so I guess for him, it's not really an option fr him. Either way, its his prerogative.

I'll give you a word of warning. You will find people here that are enraged by the idea that Icke is doing his work for any financial reasons. I was on the receiving end of it, but admittedly I was less tactful than you in that respect, so maybe I got what was coming.

Anyway, I look forward to sharing and discussing NWO / Sept 11 issues with you in due course, as these are the issues I am most concerned with. I have some experience in politics and military circles if you want to know more about these.

Regards

DM

[brotherapostate]

Yeah, but Maxwell has enough charisma to send a stag party to sleep. Give me Icke over Maxwell anytime. In fact, Maxwell can come up with the stuff and Icke can speak publicly about it!

Although you can't take away Icke's experience and personal investigations.

Ah well, goodnight all.

[lilly555]

Goodnight! Isn't 5:14pm a little early for bedtime?:D

[formation9]

hi adimon and thank you for your response.

I am a very spiritual person also, and I see a lot of mysteries in the human race.

So I come from skeptical perspective, however in my own thinking I cross reference miliatry, politics, medicine, and spirituality and have opinions on all subjects, which is why icke is so frustrating for me. I was hoping to learn some new things from the video and didnt.

I will take cable television news for example. In the USA, the large point is to divide into left right and then conquer. So all these people like Michael Moore, Bill Oreilly, Olbermann, serve this great purpose. This does not always mean that they are liars, but they cant all be right. The interesting thing is that sometimes they are telling the truth and are right.

The amazing this is that you can find some great, reasonable critques from each side, as its thier job. But I think the larger point they serve is to dissuade any critical thinking and cooperation. You must see things in black and white according to them. You must see the other party as enemy and less than human, this is the message.

What this does is allow the people who are working together (the rich and elite) the fuck the society up the ass. It allows them to accomplish the goals which I have already listed, and the population is too busy paying attention to left/right war thats going on.

So how to fight back? I think it needs to be accepted in this or whatever other movement that yes, the illumaniti or whatever you want to call it is real. But you also need to explicitly state what their goals are and how you can find a solution to the problems, rather than just saying, well theyre alien reptiles.

[serpentoffire]

Goodnight! Isn't 5:14pm a little early for bedtime?:D

It is time, in this moment is 11.19 pm in my country. Good night.:o

[lilly555]

hi adimon and thank you for your response.

I am a very spiritual person also, and I see a lot of mysteries in the human race.

So I come from skeptical perspective, however in my own thinking I cross reference miliatry, politics, medicine, and spirituality and have opinions on all subjects, which is why icke is so frustrating for me. I was hoping to learn some new things from the video and didnt.

I will take cable television news for example. In the USA, the large point is to divide into left right and then conquer. So all these people like Michael Moore, Bill Oreilly, Olbermann, serve this great purpose. This does not always mean that they are liars, but they cant all be right. The interesting thing is that sometimes they are telling the truth and are right.

The amazing this is that you can find some great, reasonable critques from each side, as its thier job. But I think the larger point they serve is to dissuade any critical thinking and cooperation. You must see things in black and white according to them. You must see the other party as enemy and less than human, this is the message.

What this does is allow the people who are working together (the rich and elite) the fuck the society up the ass. It allows them to accomplish the goals which I have already listed, and the population is too busy paying attention to left/right war thats going on.

So how to fight back? I think it needs to be accepted in this or whatever other movement that yes, the illumaniti or whatever you want to call it is real. But you also need to explicitly state what their goals are and how you can find a solution to the problems, rather than just saying, well theyre alien reptiles.

Yeah Icke goes into a lot of detail about that left and right stuff in a few of his books. It sounds very similiar to how you put. And you're right. A few of them it is there job to tell the truth. I just gets mixed up in all of dis-info on the news. Seems like you have a knack for figuring that stuff out. I do too. I liked your insight on the intention of tv sitcoms and actors. As for fighting back though..I don't know about that. Why do you wish to fight? What do you feel that you would get out of or gain from fighting? And why do you feel the need to find a solution to thier problems? I also don't get why you write,

"But you also need to explicitly state what their goals are and how you can find a solution to the problems."

Why do feel that I need to do that? Relax.

I am in a state where I am at peace with the problems. I respect them for what they are and view them as an illusionary distration from higher conciousness. But it has just as much right to be here as anything else does. It's not our job to fight and stop the agenda because it isn't our problem. It's thier's.

[fantana]

Any thoughts?

When I try to think I get head aches, so I basically just remain in a man state of just reaction, a lot like Bruce Lee.




Hope this helps

[formation9]

hi lilly

I respect your opinion. I dont mean I want to physically fight, but there are a lot of problems in society. Many people go without health insurance, health coverage is bad, the education system is poor, the medical system is poor, the banks scam you, there is predatory lending, there are many homeless people, most popular restaurants are bad for me, tv is bad for you, most pop culture is bad for you, people in the usa are really on edge and unhappy. Many people in the usa live in poverty, and even more across the planet live in poverty. I see these problems being tied back to those in power and their agenda.

And on and on, when I look at the world I see many things that are wrong, but also many that are right. I am happy to have figured out many of these things, I attempt to eat an organic diet, exercise, meditate, and have good relationships. So far I think I am on the way of ditching my old pop culture self and achieving a happier, more healthier state of being.

I only see it as my responsibiltiy to help bring about change and a better world, and to spread the information I have learned and received. Those in power work hard every day to keep this information suppressed. I believe its our responsibility to spread it.

[adimon]

hi lilly

I respect your opinion. I dont mean I want to physically fight, but there are a lot of problems in society. Many people go without health insurance, health coverage is bad, the education system is poor, the medical system is poor, the banks scam you, there is predatory lending, there are many homeless people, most popular restaurants are bad for me, tv is bad for you, most pop culture is bad for you, people in the usa are really on edge and unhappy. Many people in the usa live in poverty, and even more across the planet live in poverty. I see these problems being tied back to those in power and their agenda.

And on and on, when I look at the world I see many things that are wrong, but also many that are right. I am happy to have figured out many of these things, I attempt to eat an organic diet, exercise, meditate, and have good relationships. So far I think I am on the way of ditching my old pop culture self and achieving a happier, more healthier state of being.

I only see it as my responsibiltiy to help bring about change and a better world, and to spread the information I have learned and received. Those in power work hard every day to keep this information suppressed. I believe its our responsibility to spread it.

I think a fair summary of your post, and of my standpoint also, is that there are very real, witnessable, economic and political crises that need to be addressed, and that talk of infinite love and vibrations isn't gonna do very much.

I've just arrived here having spent two hours examining a thread which basically disintegrated into incition to racial hatred - a crime in most countries and rightly so.

How can we persuade people to take responsibility for their own lives?

[formation9]

I think a fair summary of your post, and of my standpoint also, is that there are very real, witnessable, economic and political crises that need to be addressed, and that talk of infinite love and vibrations isn't gonna do very much.

I've just arrived here having spent two hours examining a thread which basically disintegrated into incition to racial hatred - a crime in most countries and rightly so.

How can we persuade people to take responsibility for their own lives?

I agree with the first part, but I think that the spiritual and vibrational aspect of humanity play a large role in the bigger picture.

For instance, I even see much of the popular music out there nowadays as propaganda. I believe many messages are spread, but I will list a few more prevalent ones.

1)From a mans perspective, its good to be mysoginistic (sp?) Meaning its cool to womanize, treat women like shit, sleep around.
2)From a womans perspective, the same applies. Its cool to cheat, manipulate, lie, switch the roles, act masculine, take charge of men.
3)The bling bling concept. Many songs are about how cool it is to have bling bling, money, toys, cars, etc etc.
4)Stimulating music such as classical and jazz are not really acknolwedge in the mainstream pop culture. Music which has been shown to have great effects on the human spirit and body.

In terms of spirituality, I believe that it is being stripped out of our culture by tying it in with religion. Spirituality should be a belief in a higher power, in my opinion. Whether it be love, god, the sun, buddha, whatever. Just thinking that there is something greater than ourselves.

The problem is these days that most spiritiuality is tied in with religions that get obnoxious and way too humanized, and it turns people in nihilists. These people say, life is meaningless, we exist in a void, why do anything, theres nothing to live for. Etc, this just makes you depressed and leads to unhappiness and apathy, which us what the illuminati wants.

I belief that things like music and spirituality are kind of a cryptonite to those in power, and those in power many have access to many spiritual and mystical truths and they use to control us.

[formation9]

I think then that these short, unhealthy pop songs out there and tie them into everything.

For instance, all of them are short, 3 minutes long. They give instant gratification, they make an instant impressoin, but like a piece of candy or mcdonalds cheeseburger, they dont serve much of a purpose in making you healthy. And remember a healthy person questions things, thinks, is informed, and fights for thier beliefs.

This paradigm for viewing music is the way they want you to view everything. The mainstream news is the same way. Whether it be britney or whatever else, each story lasts only a day. Theres no follow up, critical thinking, or conclusion to the story. So you get used to 10 new stories per week, rather than 1 coherent narrative which is the way those in power think. Youre taught not to have patience, and not follow a story, not concentrate over long periods of time. Youre taught to in effect be distracted, lazy, and stupid.

But I believe there is hope. There would not be so much effort into presenting this reality unless the stakes were high, and they are. As the internet grows, this information is spreading like wildfire, and I think the illuminat is in real trouble.

[herebynightfall]

http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs12/f/2006/333/1/8/Politics_in_America_by_archetypalgrey.jpg

http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs5/i/2004/358/1/f/BLINDED_by_scart.jpg

[megafish33]

I think I'm more spiritual than I used to be, although I'm not currently religious nor do I believe in the gods. For me though, using the word "spiritual" is just an easy way to describe cool events that science can either explain or can't just yet. For me love is spiritual, but I don't always feel the need to say that it's "spiritual" and not "love." And what happens when being in different types of love can now be described by science. That is a beautiful and spiritual thing for me. :o

Have you ever read Amazon.com: Molecules Of Emotion: The Science Behind Mind-Body Medicine (9780684846347): Candace B. Pert: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bqdR793OL.@@AMEPARAM@@51bqdR793OL It's a pretty interesting book of a scientist's discoveries of our body-wide mind, and what that can mean to us. Of course, there are better books. Half of this one is long and boring, but the other half is worth the read.

[adimon]

I agree with the first part, but I think that the spiritual and vibrational aspect of humanity play a large role in the bigger picture.

For instance, I even see much of the popular music out there nowadays as propaganda. I believe many messages are spread, but I will list a few more prevalent ones.

1)From a mans perspective, its good to be mysoginistic (sp?) Meaning its cool to womanize, treat women like shit, sleep around.
2)From a womans perspective, the same applies. Its cool to cheat, manipulate, lie, switch the roles, act masculine, take charge of men.
3)The bling bling concept. Many songs are about how cool it is to have bling bling, money, toys, cars, etc etc.
4)Stimulating music such as classical and jazz are not really acknolwedge in the mainstream pop culture. Music which has been shown to have great effects on the human spirit and body.

In terms of spirituality, I believe that it is being stripped out of our culture by tying it in with religion. Spirituality should be a belief in a higher power, in my opinion. Whether it be love, god, the sun, buddha, whatever. Just thinking that there is something greater than ourselves.

The problem is these days that most spiritiuality is tied in with religions that get obnoxious and way too humanized, and it turns people in nihilists. These people say, life is meaningless, we exist in a void, why do anything, theres nothing to live for. Etc, this just makes you depressed and leads to unhappiness and apathy, which us what the illuminati wants.

I belief that things like music and spirituality are kind of a cryptonite to those in power, and those in power many have access to many spiritual and mystical truths and they use to control us.

Yes, modern popular music is appalling, but the general standard of all public expression has become completely banal.

Like I said before, I can't really view it in spiritual terms, only economic, and for me, other practical terms.

I found my greatest revelations here (http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/debord/).

All that 50cent crap, and sugababes and the rest of it...I don't think its propaganda. Its just fishfood for under-stimulated minds. Classical music, literature and art, all started dying because of television.

When Dizzee Rascal won the Mercury award I knew the game was up.

Good to hear your thoughts, guys.

[albie]

Hello all,

I am a brand new member and have done a great deal of thinking and reading on these subjects and would like to share my opinion.

Firist, I would consider myself a 911 truther. I agree with David Icke's theories and that the official story line seems pretty implausible, but in a lot of ways I end there.

I watched David's video, Freedom or Fascism. I think he does a good job talking about current events, Blair, Bush, the Matrix, etc, but then is way too general and in fact I'd even call a large portion of the video mostly a sham. The way he attempts to tie all entire history into the illuminati seems way too ambitious, and he jumps around so much that his argument is largely incoherent when tying all the symbolism into every religion, country, and movement that has ever existed.

For instance, on this board someone states that Hitler was independent and pissed off the bankers (illuminati) with his industrial might, and therefore the Illuminati bankers took care of him. According to Ickes theory, it was all a part of the "plan."

Also, if the Illuminati was all powerful, why was the fed reserve not created until 1913? Is the fed just a theatre? According to many if not all illumanit theorists, the fed is an arm of the Illuminati.

Icke claims that the Iluminati goes back to Atlantis and basically that no empire in history has been independent of the Illumanit. How the hell does he know? If the Illuminati was that omniscient and powerful, you think David Icke is privvy to this information?

Lastly, this Matrix in the USA is so damn obvious to me that I dont see Icke breaking any ground in that arena anyway. Basically, hes right about the banks, but that knowledge is becoming pretty widespread on the net these days. The manipulation of reality is also pretty evident, and to be honest I heard the same theories in my college sociology classes years ago.

I dont know, I kind of wanted to be a believer, but Id call Icke a pretty intelligent guy. Im sure he knows that a lot of his arguments are pretty incoherent, at least in this film. Seems to be just a bit of an opportunist in my view.

Any thoughts?

I have the same views. He ties too much together with little or no reason or evidence. He relies on vague symbolism too much. Like gargoyles and dragons etc.

Images that anyone can see and use quite innocently. He would see as a reason to file you as illumianti. Like if any company logo has a triangle in it it's immedieatly Illuminati.

It's the loose association commonly found in the mentally ill.

[seanx]

Adimon wrote:

but he's into all that spiritual stuff aswell

But this 'spiritual' stuff IS the ESSENCE of icke's ideas.

Unless you try to understand how he sees the NATURE of reality,
and the NATURE of time in all it's dimensions - most of what he
writes will just seem negative, hopeless stuff.

If you truely want to grasp Icke full view of the true nature
of reality - read Tales of the Time LOOP.

But you must be WILLING to allow yourself to consider these
ideas - NOT with blind faith - but with the resonance of your
heart, and an open mind.

But if you ignore this part of Icke's ideas, the so-called 'spiritual' -
you're missing 80% of his ideas

[keenan]

Hi i can understand how you are feeling and sympathise with the problems you have had.
Whilst i have suffered from depression myself as a child and adulthood i am still able to function ( well sometimes that is)
My husband has a long history of clinical depression and suffered pretty awful in the early days, he still has probs and finds life difficult.
Once he was hospitilised due to wrong medication given at the time ( a total cockup on the doctors diagnosis) and was taken very ill.
Whilst he was in this state of mind he saw some pretty evil things and swears he saw the bowels of hell.
He did however recover from the nightmare he found himself in but his mind was opened and now his beliefs have changed.
We both believe in davids work but i must say i'm a firm believer in alien life ruling us more so than john.
I found a site www.xeeatwelve.net it is very informative and worth a look, don't know if anyone as wrote of this site before but the information there although rather in depth is worth a read.It explains more indepth how our world is run and the true meaning why we exist, take a look see what you think.

Soulseeker

[formation9]

I think I'm more spiritual than I used to be, although I'm not currently religious nor do I believe in the gods. For me though, using the word "spiritual" is just an easy way to describe cool events that science can either explain or can't just yet. For me love is spiritual, but I don't always feel the need to say that it's "spiritual" and not "love." And what happens when being in different types of love can now be described by science. That is a beautiful and spiritual thing for me. :o

Have you ever read Molecules of Emotion by Candice Pert, Ph.D.? (http://www.amazon.com/Molecules-Emotion-Science-Mind-Body-Medicine/dp/0684846349) It's a pretty interesting book of a scientist's discoveries of our body-wide mind, and what that can mean to us. Of course, there are better books. Half of this one is long and boring, but the other half is worth the read.

Hello,

I respect science very much however I dont think it will ever explain most things that we experience on a day to day basis. For instance, the human spirit or love or music, while you can describe them in terms of science, the essence is rarely described fully by science.

Take a great song for example. You can break down the song into notes, the time signature, the key, and many other technical, scientific pieces. But rarely can you give the reason for the immense joy brought to people from the song through this viewpoint.

The same goes for love. Scientists may be able to describe what happens in the brain or body while the person is in love, but this describe the essence of being in love? To me it does not, which makes love and music spiritual entities.

Science has brought us many great accomplishments, but I do not put as much faith in science as you do as it leaves much unexplained.

[megafish33]

Hello,

I respect science very much however I dont think it will ever explain most things that we experience on a day to day basis. For instance, the human spirit or love or music, while you can describe them in terms of science, the essence is rarely described fully by science.

Take a great song for example. You can break down the song into notes, the time signature, the key, and many other technical, scientific pieces. But rarely can you give the reason for the immense joy brought to people from the song through this viewpoint.

The same goes for love. Scientists may be able to describe what happens in the brain or body while the person is in love, but this describe the essence of being in love? To me it does not, which makes love and music spiritual entities.

Science has brought us many great accomplishments, but I do not put as much faith in science as you do as it leaves much unexplained.

Hey formation,

Nice dialog, now I'll add where I'm coming from. Also, some of the stuff I write should just be taken at face value, and not read into more than it should be, I agree with most of your views as expressed above.

I disagree with science not being able to explain what we experience on a day to day basis. I feel like that's what it does best actually. But that's also where many explanations end.

You mentioned essence a few times. A question I can propose could be, "well define essence... what is this essence you speak of?"

It's generally some kind of attribute(or set of) that makes whatever is in question what it is, at the most fundamental level. Of course, some who are into metaphysics and/or religions can have a slightly different definition of what essence is. Some of those are a bit more interesting.

If we take the set of attributes idea though... well then we can, technically, start to describe some very human things (or maybe they're universal things, as our intuitions tell so many of us). Even what occurs, step by step, from our listening to our favorite songs and deriving enjoyment from it, can be described. While this isn't exactly esoteric anymore, since we can measure and test these things in this day and age, it still doesn't cease to amaze me and make proud to be human! Sorry... I let the geek slip out once in a while lol ;)

I agree with love and music being spiritual... If anything ever was "spiritual," it's our number one delusion, love(which according to Icke is all that really exists)! If love is a matrix, my hats off the who ever thought of it! ;) Without it, most of us and our collective culture, for better or worse, wouldn't be here. Nor would the internet, or mp3 players, or cars... Love for the greater good, and humanity, is a passion that spreads like wildfire and is why we are were we are today, again, for better, and for worse...

I don't put faith in science. Science doesn't require faith. I accept the scientific method as one of humanity's many achievements because it's accomplishments speak for themselves. I'm not saying it's 100% stupid to have faith in anything. It's actually been shown that those who have faith in a higher power, or their own innate healing capabilities, can heal faster from sickness than those who are pessimistic about life. Science leaves much unexplained because it evolves with those who employ it. And even if it could explain everything one day, I don't think I'd want to know it all... some things are just plain magic and should probably stay that way. :)