Wicca and Paganism

[pi33]

Are these things good or bad? I know they use the pentagram but are they just new agey?

[h1s_l0rdsh1p]

Wicca is something 16 year old girls who aren't in the "in crowd" tend to believe in just because they watched Charmed and thought they could be cool and different too.

A pagan is someone who has decided that since these dogmas don't work for them, they will use a dogma that these dogmas tried to banish. Usually pagans are homosexuals and tend to "love everybody", but they can't really seem to grasp the understanding between "love" and "orgy".

[i_am]

Are these things good or bad? I know they use they pentagram but are they just new agey?

There is good and bad in everything.

[h1s_l0rdsh1p]

There is good and bad in everything.

Good and bad is a moral question, is it not?

[i_am]

Good and bad is a moral question, is it not?

It depends on your perspective :)

[h1s_l0rdsh1p]

It depends on your perspective :)

Well, what perspective do you base your morality?

[phildee3]

Good and bad is a moral question, is it not?

there are good wiccans, there are bad wiccans.
there are good pagans there are bad pagans.

[h1s_l0rdsh1p]

there are good wiccans, there are bad wiccans.
there are good pagans there are bad pagans.

But what helps you justify what's good and what's bad?!

THAT'S WHAT I'M ASKING

[auron]

May You Always Feel Loved

May you find serenity and tranquility in a world you may not always understand. May the pain you have known, and the conflict you have experienced give you the strength to walk through life facing each new situation with optimism and courage. Always know that there are those whose love and understanding will always be there even when you feel most alone.

May you discover enough goodness in others to believe in a world of peace. May a kind word, a reassuring touch, a warm smile, be yours every day of your life, and may you give these gifts as well as receive them. Remember the sunshine when the storm seems unending. Teach love to those who know hate, and let that love embrace you as you go into the world.

May the teaching of those you admire become part of you, so that you may call upon them. Remember, those whose lives you have touched and who have touched yours are always a part of you, even if the encounters were less than you would have wished.

May you not become too concerned with material matters, but instead place immeasurable value on the goodness in your heart. Find time in each day to see the beauty and love in the world around you. Realize that each person has limitless abilities, but each of us is different in our own way. What you may feel you lack in one regard may be more than compensated for in another. What you feel you lack in the present may become one of your strengths in the future.

May you see your future as one filled with promise and possibility. Learn to view everything as a worthwhile experience. May you find enough inner strength to determine your own worth by yourself, and not be dependent on another's judgments of your accomplishments.

And...... May you always feel loved.

[h1s_l0rdsh1p]

Where the hell did all that come from?!

I'm asking where do they get their defintions of good and bad?

Is it a moral issues? I thought morals derived from dogmas?!


But, let me not be the de-railer anymore. My ass is sure to get kicked off.

So, which do you think is better than the other than?

[i_am]

Well, what perspective do you base your morality?

Well I certainly don't know any wiccans who fit into your ideas. They are good people who care about the earth and live a caring peaceful life. Obviously your experience is different.

While we live in a world of duality, people will always see right, wrong, good, bad, but it is all two sides of the one coin.

I try not to moralise :)

[phildee3]

But what helps you justify what's good and what's bad?!

THAT'S WHAT I'M ASKING

sorry yourlordship.
I was actually replying to pi33's original post, using the last post to click on reply.
but to try to answer your question, in my slightly relaxed, somewhat inebriated state (I'm going to regret this tomorrow!):
For me; according to my chosen (I think) moral stance:
good = the health, comfort and happiness of all beings.
bad = the health, comfort and happiness of self at the expense of others.

[auron]

http://aycu14.webshots.com/image/24573/2000149123179367988_rs.jpg

[auron]

That's it....

It's that simple.

[phildee3]

I thought morals derived from dogmas?!

I thought it's the other way round.

[i_am]

For me; according to my chosen (I think) moral stance:
good = the health, comfort and happiness of all beings.
bad = the health, comfort and happiness of self at the expense of others.

well put :)

wiccan rede:
an' ye harm none, do what thou wilt
what you put out comes back to thee, always remember the law of three.

Crowley:
do what thou wilt

[h1s_l0rdsh1p]

Thank you.

That's all I wanted.

I don't care which came first. All I know is, they go hand in hand.

[mahabaratara]

Usually pagans are homosexuals...

Man your a fool...

[december]

Are these things good or bad? I know they use they pentagram but are they just new agey?

THESE ARE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS.

Wicca is for Hippies. Paganism, however, is for people who respect their people's culture and heritage.

[phildee3]

Well I certainly don't know any wiccans who fit into your ideas.

I do.

They are good people who care about the earth and live a caring peaceful life.

Some are.
Some are real pricks.

I thought hislordsips definitions were amusingly entertaining, myself.;)

[phildee3]

THESE ARE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS.

Wicca is for Hippies. Paganism, however, is for people who respect their people's culture and heritage.

Rubbish.
Wicca is a form of paganism.

[i_am]

Some are.
Some are real pricks.

I thought hislordsips definitions were amusingly entertaining, myself.;)

errr! I was referring to the ones I know personally. They aren't pricks :p but yes I have met some who are.

[phildee3]

errr! I was referring to the ones I know personally. They aren't pricks :p but yes I have met some who are.

errr, fair 'nuff.

neo-wiccans do tend to be a bit superficial these days, though.
I mean, most of what the're into is borrowed from druidism.
If you're into the Celtic stuff, why not get serious about it instead of pissing around with spells and potions, - black dresses n stuff?

[phildee3]

Wicca is for Hippies. Paganism, however, is for people who respect their people's culture and heritage.

I'm a hippie;
and I respect the culture and heritage of all indiginous peoples.
and now I'm off to bed.
Thanks for letting me in for a bit.
talk t'ya later.

PS don't fight guys;
life's too short...

[december]

Wicca is a form of paganism.

Thank you for helping me to prove my point.
Yes, Wicca is NOT Paganism, Wicca is not for people who respect their people's culture and heritage.

[phildee3]

Thank you for helping me to prove my point.
Yes, Wicca is NOT Paganism, Wicca is not for people who respect their people's culture and heritage.

How do I help you prove your point?
I said that wicca is a form of paganism;
- meaning that wicca is pagan.

Would you say that a Vauxhall isn't a car because it's a Vauxhall?

[spacegurl]

Wicca is something 16 year old girls who aren't in the "in crowd" tend to believe in just because they watched Charmed and thought they could be cool and different too.

Don't let Hollywood limit your understanding of pagans. Not all Wiccans are 16 year old girls copying Charmed. There are girls drawn to Wicca because if they want to follow a certain path in life they'll read up on Wicca as there's plenty of books on Wicca. Films featuring Wicca as a theme does glamourise Wicca and it attracts kids, mainly girls. However saying that Wicca is also a serious belief by adults.

A pagan is someone who has decided that since these dogmas don't work for them, they will use a dogma that these dogmas tried to banish. Usually pagans are homosexuals and tend to "love everybody", but they can't really seem to grasp the understanding between "love" and "orgy".

What? No a pagan is not "usually homosexual who loves everybody" :rolleyes: Do you actually know any real pagans?

[phoebe]

Are these things good or bad? I know they use the pentagram but are they just new agey?

'Paganism' comes from the root 'pagus'
Which means 'countryside dweller'.
There is nothing new age about it.
It's also known as 'the Old Religion'
And that's no exaggeration
Because it literally is as old as man.
The word paganism basically incorporates all the belief
Systems of everybody, everywhere
Before Christianity, or Islam etc came about.
(In fact those religions 'stole' most of the
Belief systems/festivals/myths of the pagans.)
Paganism is the worship of nature,
Reverence for earth as mother
And reverence for the cycles of the cosmos.
So I can't see it is inherently 'bad'
Because it's belief systems are so
Wide-ranging and undogmatic.
But on the other hand,
It is still a belief system
And one could argue that that is
'Bad' in itself...

Wicca is a modern adaptation
Of the old pagan fertility religion.
It is 'neo-paganism'
It's only about 50 or so years old
And was 'invented' by Gerald Gardiner
And Doreen Valiente.
Wicca says that
Whatever energy you put out into the world
You will get back, multiplied by three
(The law of three-fold return)
So if there are any 'bad' Wiccans
They should know what they're in for!
Because Wicca is centred upon the
Masculine and feminine aspect
It is therefore duality based.
In this regard, it could be classed as 'bad'
Because it does help to keep
Followers thinking in dualistic terms.
However, Wiccans are allowed to choose
What they believe -
There is no set belief system or rules to adhere to
And beliefs vary drastically from one Wiccan to another.

Regarding magic and such
Magic is simply the manipulation of energy and
Whether it is 'good' or 'bad'
Depends entirely upon the intent of the practitioner.

Pentagram info

The pentagram has long been associated with mystery and magic. It is the simplest form of star shape that can be drawn unicursally - with a single line - hence it is sometimes called the Endless Knot. Other names are the Goblin's Cross, the Pentalpha, the Witch's Foot, the Devil's Star and the Seal of Solomon (more correctly attributed to the hexagram).

It has long been believed to be a potent protection against evil and demons, hence a symbol of safety, and was sometimes worn as an amulet for happy homecoming. The old folk-song : "Green Grow the Rushes,O!" refers to the use of the pentagram above doors and windows in the line: "Five is the symbol at your door."

The potency and associations of the pentagram have evolved throughout history. Today it is an ubiquitous symbol of neo-pagans with much depth of magickal and symbolic meaning.

The Pentagram through History.

The pentagram symbol today is ascribed many meanings and deep significance, though much of this is very recent. However, it has been used throughout history and in many contexts:

* The earliest known use of the pentagram dates back to around 3500BC at Ur of the Chaldees in
Ancient Mesopotamia where it was symbolic of imperial power.

* Amongst the Hebrews, the symbol was ascribed to Truth and to the five books of the Pentateuch. It
is sometimes, incorrectly, called the Seal of Solomon (see Hexagram).

* In Ancient Greece, it was called the Pentalpha, being geometrically composed of five A's. Unlike
earlier civilizations, the Greeks did not generally attribute other symbolic meanings to the letters of
their alphabet, but certain symbols became connected with Greek letter shapes or positions (eg
Gammadion, Alpha-Omega).

* To the Gnostics, the pentagram was the 'Blazing Star'.

* For the Druids, it was a symbol of Godhead.

* In Egypt, it was a symbol of the 'underground womb'.

* The Pagan Celts ascribed the pentagram to the underground goddess Morrigan.

* Medieval Christians attributed the pentagram to the Five Wounds of Christ.

* The Christian Emperor Constantine I used the pentagram, together with the chi-rho symbol in his
seal and amulet.

* In the legend of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, the pentagram was Sir Gawain's glyph, inscribed in
gold on his shield, symbolizing the five knightly virtues.

* In Medieval times, the 'Endless Knot' was a symbol of Truth and was a protection against demons. It
was used as personal protection and to guard windows and doors.

* The pentagram with one point upwards symbolized summer; with two points upwards, it was a sign
for winter.

+ During the long period of the Inquisition, the pentagram was seen to symbolize a Goat's Head.
In the purge on witches, the horned god Pan became equated with the Devil (a Christian
concept) and the pentagram, for the first time in history became a symbol of 'evil' and was called
the Witch's Foot.

* In the emergence of Hermeticism, graphical symbolism became very important. The concept of the
microcosmic world of Man as analogous to the macrocosm, the greater universe of spirit and
elemental matter is a part of traditional occult teaching in both western and eastern philosophies.
"As above, so below." The pentagram, the 'Star of the Microcosm', symbolized Man within the
microcosm, representing in analogy the Macrocosmic universe.

The upright pentagram bears some resemblance to the shape of man with his legs and arms
outstretched; indeed an illustration attributed to Agrippa or to Tycho Brae (1582) illustrates the
similarity of proportion in this image, showing the five planets and the moon at the center point -
the genitalia.

There are other illustrations of the period by Robert Fludd and Leonardo da Vinci showing
geometrical relationships of man to the universe.

+ Later, the pentagram came to be symbolic of the relationship of the head to the four limbs and
hence of the pure concentrated essence of anything (or the spirit) to the four traditional elements
of matter. - [Quintessence]

* In Freemasonry, Man as Microprosopus was associated with the five-pointed Seal of Solomon.
The symbol was used, interlaced and upright for the sitting Master of the Lodge. The geometric
properties and structure of the Endless Knot were appreciated and symbolically incorporated into
the 72 degree angle of the compasses.

* The women's branch of freemasonry uses the five pointed 'Eastern Star' as its emblem. Each
point commemorates a heroine of biblical lore.

+ No graphical illustration of any association of the pentagram with evil appears until the
nineteenth century. Eliphas Levi illustrates the upright pentagram of microcosmic man beside
an inverted pentagram with the goat's head of Baphomet.

In ritual magick the sign has long been used as a ritual flourish of the athame to symbolize
invoking or banishing in respect to elemental associations.

* In the 1940's Gerald Gardner adopted the pentagram with two points upward as the sigil of
second degree initiation in the newly emergent, neo-pagan rituals of witchcraft, later to become
known as Wicca. The one-point upward pentagram together with the upright triangle symbolized
third degree initiation.

* The pentagram was also inscribed on the altar pentacle, it's points symbolizing the three aspects of
the Goddess plus the two aspects of the God.

* It was not until the late 1960's that the pentagram again became an amuletic symbol to be worn
and has since then become firmly established as a common neo-pagan and Wiccan symbol, acquiring
many aspects of mystique and associations that are today often considered to be ancient folk-lore!

Nevertheless, the potency of a symbol has more to do with its associations and its commonality
than with its antiquity and the pentagram today is ubiquitous amongst neo-pagans.

Symbolic Meanings of the Pentagram.

* The number '5' has always been regarded as mystical and magical, yet essentially 'human'.

+ We have five fingers/toes on each limb extremity.
+ We commonly note five senses - sight, hearing, smell, touch and taste.
+ We perceive five stages or initiations in our lives - e.g.. birth, adolescence, coitus, parenthood
and death. (There are other numbers/ initiations/stages/attributions).

* The number 5 is associated with Mars. It signifies severity, conflict and harmony through conflict.

* In Christianity, five were the wounds of Christ on the cross.

* There are five pillars of the Muslim faith and five daily times of prayer.

* Five were the virtues of the medieval knight - generosity, courtesy, chastity, chivalry and piety as
symbolized in the pentagram device of Sir Gawain.

* The Wiccan Kiss is Fivefold - feet, knees, womb, breasts, lips - Blessed be.


The number 5 is prime. The simplest star - the pentagram- requires
five lines to draw and it is unicursal; it is a continuous loop.

Expressing the saying "Every man and every woman is a star",
we can juxtapose Man on a pentagram with head and four limbs at the
points and the genitalia exactly central. This is Man in microcosm,
symbolizing our place in the Macrocosm or universe and the
Hermetic/Tantric philosophy of associativity - "As above, so below".