Christians, here is your problem.

[michael christopher]

Want to know why you can't win converts? It's very simple. You just aren't looking at the situation clearly. I'll use myself as an example, although there are many people here who have the same objections as me that could be easily substituted.

I say that my problem is that the Bible promotes genocide. I give numerous passages where God actually commands genocide and threatens to kill the Jews if they do not follow through on his commandments.

You guys say I'm misinterpreting the passages.

Then you proceed to attack me.

Why can't you just correctly interpret the passages instead of saying that I'm misinterpreting them? Why is it that it's frequently said that people who quote these passages are quoting out of context, when the "correct context" is never given as a reply?

Are people really so quick to swallow that the Bible may or may not promote genocide and move along with their lives continuing to be Christians? There is really no denying it, but if I'm misinterpreting the passages where God promotes genocide (which I shall not re-post), then please explain to me why God says to wipe out entire cities including all of the men, women and children that live inside of those cities. What precisely am I misinterpreting?

Don't you guys think I have a legitimate hang-up with the Bible if I believe that it honestly promotes genocide? As good Christians, you should love me and say "It's not that you're a child of Satan" (I know this is a lot to ask for some of you) "but it's more that you just are misunderstanding what God is doing here. He isn't commanding the Jews to wipe out entire cities. In reality, he is---"

I can't say what he would be doing otherwise since it seems pretty clear to me.

So can someone explain to me exactly what God commands the Jews to do throughout Deuteronomy if it's not genocide (of which it fits the exact definition, but I'll let you refute that if you want)?

THX.

PS: I'll throw in a question for Muslims too. Don't you find it barbaric that your God offers you 72 virgin slaves for you to have sex with for all eternity? You really think this is a good thing? And if you believe that the virgins aren't actual souls, then why do you want to fuck things devoid of life for all eternity? Why do you even want to be around them? Seems only an extremely fucked up person would be attracted to a religion that offers them sex slaves in the afterlife.

[thelucifer]

Michael have a look at this link/page offered up by another poster in another thread whom I wont mention because I dont want to bash him BUT I do want to bash the page linked.

It is certainly one of the most laughable/pathetic attempts to soften the harsh/wicked nature of the God of the Bible in regards to killing the firstborn male humans and animals because of pharaoh.

This Christian page linked trying to reduce the number of human/nonhuman firstborn so as to make God not look so bad is something much worse than laughable/absurd.




http://www.christian-thinktank.com/killheir.html

“Also note that even if my estimates of Egyptian deaths are way too low, and even if my estimates of Hebrew deaths are way too high, these numbers are still so far apart that there will almost be no way to even achieve “parity”, let alone some “culpable inequity” in this judgment. If there is inequity in this deal, it is clearly the Hebrews who bear its brunt—not the Egyptians.


So, if there is ANY reasonableness/justice in the 'reap what you sow', 'judges must visit the intended consequences back upon the head of the perp', or 'the punishment must match, but not exceed, the crime', then this judgment truly was “unfair”--but in the opposite direction posed by the questioner. Pharaoh/Egypt gets off incredibly easy—God could have 'fairly' killed every person living in Egypt at the time (2.4M) and STILL not have reached the 2.75M infanticide number...”

This quote above is just pathetic and absurd.

I was tempted to make this a long post but I'm a little tired of wasting so much time on such Christian idiocy.

[michael christopher]

It's really quite silly. The Christian arguments defending God's genocidal mania blow my mind. There are people on this forum who think it was okay to kill babies because they came from "Nephilim descent." Aside from the fact that the Bible never even says that, so what if they were of Nephilim descent? Does a two year old bear guilt for the sins of his predecessors? Should he be killed to prevent future evil? What does that say about free will, which is supposedly one of the precepts of Christianity?

The Christian idea of free will is thus: "You are free to do as you please, but God wants you to do what he says. He gives you free will to follow his commands!"

It's pretty funny. I mean, Monty Python isn't as funny as some of the shit I read on this forum, because at least in Monty Python the religious maniacs are fictional. To know that real people can become so deluded that they can read a passage clearly promoting genocide and then immediately start coming up with hundreds of reasons to justify it is both hilarious and extremely disturbing.

[tenzingnorgay]

It's really quite silly. The Christian arguments defending God's genocidal mania blow my mind. There are people on this forum who think it was okay to kill babies because they came from "Nephilim descent." Aside from the fact that the Bible never even says that, so what if they were of Nephilim descent? Does a two year old bear guilt for the sins of his predecessors? Should he be killed to prevent future evil? What does that say about free will, which is supposedly one of the precepts of Christianity?

The Christian idea of free will is thus: "You are free to do as you please, but God wants you to do what he says. He gives you free will to follow his commands!"

It's pretty funny. I mean, Monty Python isn't as funny as some of the shit I read on this forum, because at least in Monty Python the religious maniacs are fictional. To know that real people can become so deluded that they can read a passage clearly promoting genocide and then immediately start coming up with hundreds of reasons to justify it is both hilarious and extremely disturbing.

The Yahweh religions don't work on people who are capable of logical thought. But they succeed, because most people are not capable of logical thought.

[lotus flower]

It's the Religion forum, what do you expect? And what is a forum anyway? A place for people to share their views. If I'm not interested in something I don't waste my time with it.

When it comes to religious people I try to be have patience and tolerance. I listen and ask thought-provoking questions. Who knows they might have an awakening in a week or twenty years.

Keep in mind that not every Christian follows the Bible. Some have never read it. Not all of them are interested in converting you. They're probably here for the same reason you're here on the david icke forum.

99% of the population isn't so different from deluded religious believers. We're all guilty of acting like sheep at some point in our lives.

Arguing with hardcore religious bible thumpers is a waste of time. In any case you can't win. It's like this. Would a baby become more intelligent if you showed it how to solve basic math problems? No. It's not possible at the moment. You're at different stages of development.

[phildee3]

Want to know why you can't win converts?



No.
I'm not an evangelist - few Christians are these days.



...the Bible promotes genocide.



That's only the Old Testament portion of the Bible - that's Judaism.

[lotus flower]

Christians read the Old Testament and follow the New Testament.

[dlb2007]

"I say that my problem is that the Bible promotes genocide. I give numerous passages where God actually commands genocide and threatens to kill the Jews if they do not follow through on his commandments"

you miss the point... how can God commit genocide? He is God, it is his will to give life and to take it away, we can not argue with God to say this just will not do, if you think about it the way your thinking about it God is commiting genocide everyday as millions of human beings die every single day. God is all powerfull, he gives life and takes it away, he makes the rules, he controls nature and the universe, he holds the key to life and death that is his perrogotive and for all the humming and harring, all the acceptance or rejection of the bible or of God himself is going change that.... humans eventually die, its a fact of life now you can go on complaining arguing and rejecting, opposing and denouncing that God has this right or that he exists because of your objection to it but its a futile endevoure... people will still die even if you reject God or oppose the idea that God has the right to end peoples lives when he so chooses...... however if you look at God as having the right to end peoples lives as a fact of creation as a fact of nature as a fact of the universe you can then move forward and see the real benefits of God as having the right to end peoples lives because that right then only resides with God and no human being or government only God has the right to determine who lives and who dies, who's life is worth more and whos is worthless, therefore no human being and no government has the right to determine who lives and who dies... God then becomes the refuge of the weak the vunrable the little man the general public the safe guard against the wickedness and evil of govenrments and tyrants. The genocide of the Nazi's yes it was a crime against the Jews but more importantly it was a crime against humanity and ultimatly importantly it was a crime against God..... because no human being, no government has the right to decide who lives and who dies.... It was a crime against God because it rejected the fact that only God has this right to determin who lives and dies, it was a crime against humanity because all humanity is important to God.

instead of renouncing Gods right to determine such matters thus paving they way for stronger humans to claim that right for themselves over weak human beings defend the fact that it is only Gods devine right to decide and no one elses and protect the human family from tyranical governments who would and do claim that right for themsleves... British Govt, American Govt, French, German, etc they all proclaim it for themselves.... through the pusedo science of eugenics.

"I am the saviour of the world" - Jesus Christ

[phildee3]

you miss the point... how can God commit genocide? He is God, it is his will to give life and to take it away, we can not argue with God to say this just will not do, if you think about it the way your thinking about it God is commiting genocide everyday as millions of human beings die every single day. God is all powerfull, he gives life and takes it away, he makes the rules,



Ah, but does he?
You are right that he (the creator, Yahweh) cannot "commit" genocide if he is not violating any law coming from a greater source than him, but is there not a greater law - the law of unconditional love which was preached by Jesus?

[open mind]

Interpretation - thats the name of the game.

I was discussing the bible with a born again Christian.
The bible is said to be the word of God. It wasnt written by God, rather it was written by men whom God was speaking through.

I posed a few different scenarios to her:
- What if these men misinterpreted some of Gods message and didnt convey it in the bible as they were intended?
- Are all the passages etc that are the word of God really the word of God? Or could some of it be someone passing off there own messages and decrees as the word of God?
- The English Bible wasnt written until around the 1500's. Is it possible the message may have sutly changed over time as simply as a sentence can change in a childrens game of Chinese whispers.

Id say the exact same goes for Koran & Torah.

Gods word? Or mans word pretending to be God's?

[phildee3]

So can someone explain to me exactly what God commands the Jews to do throughout Deuteronomy if it's not genocide



No, because he does.

But that's Judaism, not Christianity.

[tannah]

Interpretation - thats the name of the game.

I was discussing the bible with a born again Christian.
The bible is said to be the word of God. It wasnt written by God, rather it was written by men whom God was speaking through.

I posed a few different scenarios to her:
- What if these men misinterpreted some of Gods message and didnt convey it in the bible as they were intended?
- Are all the passages etc that are the word of God really the word of God? Or could some of it be someone passing off there own messages and decrees as the word of God?
- The English Bible wasnt written until around the 1500's. Is it possible the message may have sutly changed over time as simply as a sentence can change in a childrens game of Chinese whispers.

Id say the exact same goes for Koran & Torah.

Gods word? Or mans word pretending to be God's?

Overall it seems this Yahweh needs a lesson in communication.

It's obvious to me that people of the past had incorrect perceptions of God, and they splattered his so called words throughout their texts. and holding to such poor perceptions of God and texts causes conflict inside. And if one isn't feeling conflict about some the actions of such a God, then in my opinion they are still heavily hipnotized.

It's no good saying he is God, and can do what he likes. That is a piss poor excuse, and shows one's hipnotism. Dictators think they can do what they like, but one would think that God is the ultimate example of unconditional love and moral uprightness. He doesn't think "hmmmm, I know my subjects can't kill and get jealous, but I'm God and I can do what I ilke". That would be a silly, childish discernment that belongs in a zoo chaps.:)

But God is also real to me, and I can understand why someone is not willing to let go of something they feel to be that real. No one is suggesting one lets go, but if one wants their journey to at least be as honest as possible, they would do well to study the origins of texts they say describe God.

[flyermay]

you miss the point... how can God commit genocide? He is God, it is his will to give life and to take it away, we can not argue with God to say this just will not do, if you think about it the way your thinking about it God is commiting genocide everyday as millions of human beings die every single day. God is all powerfull, he gives life and takes it away, he makes the rules, he controls nature and the universe, he holds the key to life and death that is his perrogotive and for all the humming and harring, all the acceptance or rejection of the bible or of God himself is going change that.... humans eventually die, its a fact of life now you can go on complaining arguing and rejecting, opposing and denouncing that God has this right or that he exists because of your objection to it but its a futile endevoure... people will still die even if you reject God or oppose the idea that God has the right to end peoples lives when he so chooses...... however if you look at God as having the right to end peoples lives as a fact of creation as a fact of nature as a fact of the universe you can then move forward and see the real benefits of God as having the right to end peoples lives because that right then only resides with God and no human being or government only God has the right to determine who lives and who dies, who's life is worth more and whos is worthless, therefore no human being and no government has the right to determine who lives and who dies... God then becomes the refuge of the weak the vunrable the little man the general public the safe guard against the wickedness and evil of govenrments and tyrants. The genocide of the Nazi's yes it was a crime against the Jews but more importantly it was a crime against humanity and ultimatly importantly it was a crime against God..... because no human being, no government has the right to decide who lives and who dies.... It was a crime against God because it rejected the fact that only God has this right to determin who lives and dies, it was a crime against humanity because all humanity is important to God.

instead of renouncing Gods right to determine such matters thus paving they way for stronger humans to claim that right for themselves over weak human beings defend the fact that it is only Gods devine right to decide and no one elses and protect the human family from tyranical governments who would and do claim that right for themsleves... British Govt, American Govt, French, German, etc they all proclaim it for themselves.... through the pusedo science of eugenics.

"I am the saviour of the world" - Jesus Christ

But then God seem like a bit indecisive. I mean, he first gave life to the first born of Egypt, and then -without any of those children doing anything against the law of God- he decides to get rid of them. Was it that he gave life to them so that their parents could be punished with their death. It doesn't look right to me, even if you are God; and much less when he is supposed to be full of love.

Another example: God created the Nephilim, Rephaim and Anakim (whether they were human or not), but then he commanded the sons of Adam to exterminate them all. What was the point of creating them in the first place; he could have saved men a lot of trouble and slaughtering?

[clachan]

It's the Religion forum, what do you expect? And what is a forum anyway? A place for people to share their views. If I'm not interested in something I don't waste my time with it.

When it comes to religious people I try to be have patience and tolerance. I listen and ask thought-provoking questions. Who knows they might have an awakening in a week or twenty years.

Keep in mind that not every Christian follows the Bible. Some have never read it. Not all of them are interested in converting you. They're probably here for the same reason you're here on the david icke forum.

99% of the population isn't so different from deluded religious believers. We're all guilty of acting like sheep at some point in our lives.

Arguing with hardcore religious bible thumpers is a waste of time. In any case you can't win. It's like this. Would a baby become more intelligent if you showed it how to solve basic math problems? No. It's not possible at the moment. You're at different stages of development.

yes,its common sense really.
Example:Exodus 22:18.Thou shall not suffer a witch to live.
First off,the translation from Hebew to modern English doesn,t work and the true meaning is lost.Hence the murder of thousands of innocent women in the 16th century.
If i were to obey Exodus 22:18 i may well be shareing a cell with Charlie boy Manson....
A little use of the old grey matter needs to be applied.

A Christian is a person who believe with his heart Jesus Christ was the son of God,or at least a Godsent person of supernatural origin and on a divine mission.
A Christian is not necessarily some one who follows the OT to the literal meaning,surely this is more a question for othordox Jews.
Though im sure some Christians here may not agree with me.
Jesus was a liberal Jew,re.the woman condemned to death for adultery before Christ showed up and told them to all to naff off,so i consider myself a liberal Christian with at least a little give and take...as well as common sense and compassion for others who dont see the world as i do.

The OT can say whatever,dont mean i have to follow it just because i believe in Christ as the saviour of our lost planet.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

what a Diva, you don't like YHWH because He 'calls you' on your own self-inflicted bullshit.

You have been nattering on and on for many months now and all you have succeeded in achieving is showcasing your own superficial and ignorant biases.

lol@u hahahahahahahahahahaha

You know Jack Shit mikey, and Jack left town.

hahahahahahahahahahahaha



Kind Regards



lol

[clachan]

But then God seem like a bit indecisive. I mean, he first gave life to the first born of Egypt, and then -without any of those children doing anything against the law of God- he decides to get rid of them. Was it that he gave life to them so that their parents could be punished with their death. It doesn't look right to me, even if you are God; and much less when he is supposed to be full of love.

Another example: God created the Nephilim, Rephaim and Anakim (whether they were human or not), but then he commanded the sons of Adam to exterminate them all. What was the point of creating them in the first place; he could have saved men a lot of trouble and slaughtering?

They abused their gift of free will,I,in part,created my son.....I want the best for him,but if he turns out to be the next Hitler that is his choice and so for the good of the whole it,d be better if he ....I cannot say what,but you see my point.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

There are comprehensive answers to many queries in the Third Link of my signature. Scroll Down and get informed.

The year is 2009, almost 2010, and the level of ignorance here is appalling.

lol

[clachan]

what a Diva, you don't like YHWH because He 'calls you' on your own self-inflicted bullshit.

You have been nattering on and on for many months now and all you have succeeded in achieving is showcasing your own superficial and ignorant biases.

lol@u hahahahahahahahahahaha

You know Jack Shit mikey, and Jack left town.

hahahahahahahahahahahaha



Kind Regards



lol

Who,s Jack Shit ?
Is that his real name ????......what an idiot,if i had a name like that i would change it.
I knew a bloke called Brian Pratt !....but I,d rather be a Pratt than a Shit.

[flyermay]

They abused their gift of free will,I,in part,created my son.....I want the best for him,but if he turns out to be the next Hitler that is his choice and so for the good of the whole it,d be better if he ....I cannot say what,but you see my point.

I don't think that's the case. The first born of Egypt did not abuse anything, and the bible says nothing about what the giants did wrong (or even if they had free will, since they were not human).

[harry_88]

Indeed there are serious questions to be asked.
However regarding infanticide, some regard it as genocide with reasonable argument.

"Human Life International", a Catholic organization says "The Abortion industry is a Jewish conspiracy"

http://judicial-inc.org/Ab_ortion_business.htm

I am referring here to what is commonly known as "abortion" which is every bit as horrific as anything that is mentioned in the OT.

Yet we find all true Christians & Muslims are opposed to such killings.

[michael christopher]

No, because he does.

But that's Judaism, not Christianity.

You're one of the few Christians who believes the Old Testament is not the continuing word of God, so I'm not speaking to you specifically. Obviously, by the questions posed in the first post, I am speaking to people who believe that the Old Testament is the ongoing word of God.

Do I really need to explain that so specifically? Or shouldn't it be obvious? It's not like the majority of Christians think the Old Testament has nothing to do with Christianity - they almost all think it's the same God, and I do mean in large part. You're in the minority and most of the Christians I'm directing these questions to would consider your soul inevitably hell-bound for questioning the validity of any of the Old Testament.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

New Testament Use of the Old Testament
by Roger Nicole

http://www.bible-researcher.com/nicole.html

THE NEW Testament contains an extraordinarily large number of Old Testament quotations. It is difficult to give an accurate figure since the variation in use ranges all the way from a distant allusion to a definite quotation introduced by an explicit formula stating the citation’s source. As a result, the figures given by various authors often reflect a startling discrepancy.

1. RANGE OF OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES
The present writer has counted 224 direct citations introduced by a definite formula indicating the writer purposed to quote. To these must be added seven cases where a second quotation is introduced by the conjunction “and,” and 19 cases where a paraphrase or summary rather than a direct quotation follows the introductory formula. We may further note at least 45 instances where the similarity with certain Old Testament passages is so pronounced that, although no explicit indication is given that the New Testament author was referring to Old Testament Scripture, his intention to do so can scarcely be doubted. Thus a very conservative count discloses unquestionably at least 295 separate references to the Old Testament. These occupy some 352 verses of the New Testament, or more than 4.4 per cent. Therefore one verse in 22.5 of the New Testament is a quotation.

If clear allusions are taken into consideration, the figures are much higher: C. H. Toy lists 613 such instances, Wilhelm Dittmar goes as high as 1640, while Eugen Huehn indicates 4105 passages reminiscent of Old Testament Scripture. It can therefore be asserted, without exaggeration, that more than 10 per cent of the New Testament text is made up of citations or direct allusions to the Old Testament. The recorded words of Jesus disclose a similar percentage. Certain books like Revelation, Hebrews, Romans are well nigh saturated with Old Testament forms of language, allusions and quotations. Perusal of Nestle’s edition of the Greek New Testament, in which the Old Testament material is printed in bold face type, will reveal at a glance the extent of this practice. These facts appear even more impressive when one remembers that in New Testament times the Old Testament was not as today duplicated by the million but could be obtained only in expensive handwritten copies.

If we limit ourselves to the specific quotations and direct allusions which form the basis of our previous reckoning, we shall note that 278 different Old Testament verses are cited in the New Testament: 94 from the Pentateuch, 99 from the Prophets, and 85 from the Writings. Out of the 22 books in the Hebrew reckoning of the Canon only six (Judges-Ruth, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Ezra-Nehemlah, Chronicles) are not explicitly referred to. The more extensive lists of Dittmar and Huehn show passages reminiscent of all Old Testament books without exception.

Table of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, in English translation

http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTCHART.HTM

The christian gnostics are unable to explain these Documents. These Documents refute the Core xtian gnostic Doctrine that: YHWH is not the 'god' of the 'new testament'. YHWH is the ABBA/Father of the NT.

It is not going well for 'gnosis of xtianity'.


Kind Regards

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

I don't think that's the case. The first born of Egypt did not abuse anything, and the bible says nothing about what the giants did wrong (or even if they had free will, since they were not human).

To this day children often suffer because of the idiocy of their parents and/or government.

A sad fact of life.

Before one can render JUDGEMENT, a Broadspectrum of Data MUST be gathered and Analyzed in a Non-Biased Manner.

good luck with that! :)

Good Question... Was God being evil when He killed all the firstborn in Egypt?
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/killheir.html

An older piece on the Hardening of Pharaoh's heart...
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hharden.html


The Present Day
UFO-ALIEN
ABDUCTION PHENOMENON
as interpreted from a Biblical Precedent

by J. Timothy Unruh

http://ldolphin.org/unruh/alien/

But this Series of Documents is what ALL Christians, and other interested Parties need to read. The Human Race is woefully behind the curve.

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/

The Meaning of the Word Nephilim:
Fact vs. Fantasy
Michael S. Heiser
PhD, Hebrew Bible and Ancient Semitic Languages, University of Wisconsin-Madison


http://www.michaelsheiser.com/nephilim.pdf




Kind Regards

[flyermay]

To this day children often suffer because of the idiocy of their parents and/or government.

I'm not sure how to interpret that. Are you saying that God did the right thing because some parents/governments' idiocy cause children to die to this day? or are you saying that parents/governments do the right thing now because God did it before them?

Good Question... Was God being evil when He killed all the firstborn in Egypt?
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/killheir.html

I just quickly checked the first link, and I'm under the impression that the whole justification is based on the number of children killed. So, I'm wondering how many children would be too many. I'm sure more than 10 innocent children were killed in Egypt, though God was willing to spare the whole of Sodom to save the lives of just 10 righteous adult Sodomites; actually went down from 50 to 10 (Gen. 18:23 to 18:33).

I also noticed this phrase on the linked page: "Pharaoh was holding Moses and his people captive, and doing really nasty things to them." But according to the Genesis God is fine with slavery, as God did not only favoured Abram while having slaves -some of them were "dealt hardly" (Gen. 16:6)- but also convinced Hagar to return to her slavery when she escaped (Gen. 16:8). So, according to God, did the Pharaoh deserve punishment because he had slaves, because he had Jewish slaves, or because he had slaves and wasn't Jewish?


I'll check the other webpages tomorrow...

[now here]

It's pretty funny. I mean, Monty Python isn't as funny as some of the shit I read on this forum, because at least in Monty Python the religious maniacs are fictional.
Perhaps you'll find this shit funny then... ;)

why atheists d n have brain
why atheists d n have brain - YouTube

why unbelievers ,are unbelievers?
why unbelievers ,are unbelievers? - YouTube