What is the true Christ? [Archive] - David Icke's Official Forums

clachan

28-11-2009, 07:24 PM

With all these talks about how Christians don't worship the true Christ, etc. Maybe people can shed light on what the true Christ actually is. Maybe if we know what Christ is, then we will know what he is not and separate the deceivers from the Truth! :cool:

You can find out yourself.
Pray to him and ask him into your life,I did and do.
In 1995 ,for reasons I still dont understand,I thought....who is this man ?...I bought and read every book i could find regarding his life...but I really did want to know.
I cannot say for sure,but since then my life changed beyond recognition.I still have issues,but Rome wasn,t built in a day.I left the UK almost pennyless,didn,t even know where i was going or what would happen to me,but hearly 10 years on and Im still travelling on a great adventure.I know that if i just let the spirit of Christ guide me i will not go wrong.
So why not try ?He,s waiting for you just around the next bend in the road.

nirvana

29-11-2009, 11:05 AM

nirvana

29-11-2009, 11:07 AM

You can find out yourself.
Pray to him and ask him into your life,I did and do.
In 1995 ,for reasons I still dont understand,I thought....who is this man ?...I bought and read every book i could find regarding his life...but I really did want to know.
I cannot say for sure,but since then my life changed beyond recognition.I still have issues,but Rome wasn,t built in a day.I left the UK almost pennyless,didn,t even know where i was going or what would happen to me,but hearly 10 years on and Im still travelling on a great adventure.I know that if i just let the spirit of Christ guide me i will not go wrong.
So why not try ?He,s waiting for you just around the next bend in the road.

Yes very true jesus or the belief in jesus can be a very empowering spiritual practice.

phildee3

29-11-2009, 11:47 AM

"Christ" is from the Greek word khristós, meaning "the anointed one" - same as massiah in Hebrew.

Righteous and just ruler of a holy people.

Jesus of Nazareth had the royal lineage to become king of the Jews, but they rejected him for being apolitical; - they were not holy and righteous enough.

However, he was anointed Christ by Mary Magdalene at Bethany and so became king of a new "Israel" - a spiritual people with no earthly organization - united and ruled by love alone!

danster82

29-11-2009, 01:56 PM

Christ is a state of consciousness that allows you to know God(truth).

Which is why Jesus said let this mind which is in me be also in you.

fromthatshow

29-11-2009, 03:29 PM

The true christ is the same as the buddha within.

Exactly.

Also, I would read the book A Course In Miracles for a better account of Christ than the Bible would show you.

deusvult

30-11-2009, 12:37 AM

Christ is teacher,

Christ is guide,

Christ shows the true path.

You must seek and understand.

Regardless of faith, most will provide a similar answer to this question.

nioz

30-11-2009, 01:11 AM

The prophet Jesus/Isa (peace upon him)

Is one of the 124.000 prophets that came to enlightening the world with the truth.

He is born out of the clean and humble virgin Mary/Maryam(peace upon her) and will be the only messiah that will come back on earth to finish what is supposed to happen.

The whole demonic system on earth will be beaten.

tenzingnorgay

30-11-2009, 02:41 AM

armoured_amazon

30-11-2009, 02:54 AM

tannah

30-11-2009, 03:00 AM

He's a fictional character created by the Roman Empire to control their subjects. He is now useful as a tool to assert control over people within the matrix.

The Romans and the Jews did have at least one thing in common, they both murdered the early Christian followers. So I would say that the Romans distorted what for them could have been a dangerous spiritual force, and threat to their ambitions. Get yer pipe out and let your inner "Sherlock" contemplate. The Romans used the potent power in such a belief for their own ends. It's no different to what the music industry have done to dilute the messages of musicians who sing about change and point out corruption.

The essence of the real message, in my opinion, is that a Spiritual master of the highest degree shared with us the idea of being a perfect human, and that to clothe oneself with one's true reality is akin to discovering God within and to discipline oneself to become one with such a force. At this point one will discover Self Government, and will not need outside laws to abide by.
The clues are in between the diluted and misleading parts of the bible, and other texts outside the bible. The clues are also in every cultural spiritual tradition. But they are only signposts. The real work has to occur within, a few "yards" past the last bit of text ever written or read.

geolaureate8

30-11-2009, 04:42 AM

Jesus was nothing the Bible says he was.

clachan

30-11-2009, 07:27 AM

He's a fictional character created by the Roman Empire to control their subjects. He is now useful as a tool to assert control over people within the matrix.

Crickey Ickey !!!.....you sound like HAL from 2001:a space oddysey:D

Is that you tenzingnorgay ?......or DI,ziegeist or one of others repeating the same line without thinking?............noone controls me,in fact the opposite is true because my moral guidence comes from Christ and noone else,including any church or Icke & clones.

As far as im concerned Im free within the spirit of Christ which is unending.

How much richer is Icke or people like Ian Crane because people like you buy into their catchy new buzz phrase which you have just repeated for them like a good little robot ??

geolaureate8

30-11-2009, 08:00 AM

Crickey Ickey !!!.....you sound like HAL from 2001:a space oddysey:D

Is that you tenzingnorgay ?......or DI,ziegeist or one of others repeating the same line without thinking?............noone controls me,in fact the opposite is true because my moral guidence comes from Christ and noone else,including any church or Icke & clones.

David Icke and Zeitgeist is what gets people thinking. They're not there to tell you how to think, but to free your mind from mind prisons. You say no one controls you, yet you wouldn't dare go against the words of Jesus. So who's really in control? You or Jesus?

As far as im concerned Im free within the spirit of Christ which is unending.

No, you're a Bible slave religious fanatic that can't think for himself. And to make yourself feel good about your prison, you insult the people outside the prison running around free. And it's you're fault because we're trying to unlock the gate, but you insist on enslaving your mind. Either that, or you can't see the bars.

How much richer is Icke or people like Ian Crane because people like you buy into their catchy new buzz phrase which you have just repeated for them like a good little robot ??

No one that truly understands Icke's message would ever repeat anything he said robotically. His books are for the open minded, seeking knowledge. You put all your faith in a debunked book that won't let you think outside the confines of that book. Icke books aren't religious books where you are required to believe it or else you burn in hell. They put forth philosophic concepts and well-researched information.

.

1964

30-11-2009, 08:02 AM

With all these talks about how Christians don't worship the true Christ, etc. Maybe people can shed light on what the true Christ actually is. Maybe if we know what Christ is, then we will know what he is not and separate the deceivers from the Truth! :cool:

No one likes to be told who they are. We don't like to have our words ignored, and we don't like people putting words in our mouths that we never said. We don't like to be told by someone that we're thinking one thing, when we know we're thinking something else. And if someone refuses to even recognize who we are, then we're not going to feel close or connected to that person.

Every day, in this world, people try to tell God Who He is; what He thinks; what He has said and not said. The Catholic church has done it; the Protestant churches have all done it; and people do it on an individual basis when they embrace some of Christ's teachings, and reject those of His teachings that don't happen to suit them.

Jesus Christ has told us precisely Who He is, in God's Own Word.

There are more than 2 billion self-profession 'Christians' in the world. How many of those people do you suppose are following Christ, without ever daring to tell Christ Who He is or Who they think He should be?

If you can figure out that number, then you can figure out how many Christ.ians there are in the world. And the rest are all following imposters.

geolaureate8

30-11-2009, 08:16 AM

No one likes to be told who they are. We don't like to have our words ignored, and we don't like people putting words in our mouths that we never said. We don't like to be told by someone that we're thinking one thing, when we know we're thinking something else. And if someone refuses to even recognize who we are, then we're not going to feel close or connected to that person.

Every day, in this world, people try to tell God Who He is; what He thinks; what He has said and not said. The Catholic church has done it; the Protestant churches have all done it; and people do it on an individual basis when they embrace some of Christ's teachings, and reject those of His teachings that don't happen to suit them.

Jesus Christ has told us precisely Who He is, in God's Own Word.

There are more than 2 billion self-profession 'Christians' in the world. How many of those people do you suppose are following Christ, without ever daring to tell Christ Who He is or Who they think He should be?

If you can figure out that number, then you can figure out how many Christ.ians there are in the world. And the rest are all following imposters.

Yeah, the rest are following impostors, but not you. You've got the Bible which tells you exactly who Jesus was and what he did. What could be more credible as a valid source than the Bible?

nicolaj

30-11-2009, 09:57 AM

How much richer is Icke or people like Ian Crane because people like you buy into their catchy new buzz phrase which you have just repeated for them like a good little robot ??

Mostly all the prophets of God where killed by the world, yet the world accepted the false prophets because they are not of God. Just like todays false prophets aren't.

Just like Christs words to his disciples here, they aren't meant for the world only believers.

Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Gods living Word convicts man of his sin, we only have to read the vaticans history to how they fought and killed the saints, trying to stop man recieving Gods word. The one behind the vatican knows the power of Gods word. He also knows the power of Christs name.

1964

30-11-2009, 10:29 AM

Yeah, the rest are following impostors, but not you. You've got the Bible which tells you exactly who Jesus was and what he did. What could be more credible as a valid source than the Bible?

Hi geo,

Jesus Christ has said that everyone is born a sinner into this world. That the wages of sin are death, destruction, and the lake of fire. But if you repent of your sins and follow Christ, you will be saved. Once born spiritually dead because of sin, you will now be spiritually alive in Christ by the Holy Spirit of God living in you.

Now let me ask you something. How do you feel about that? Your honest feelings. Beginning with, do you agree with Christ that you are a sinner?

1964

30-11-2009, 10:36 AM

He's a fictional character created by the Roman Empire to control their subjects. He is now useful as a tool to assert control over people within the matrix.

That would make sense if Christ were promoting the Roman Empire and telling people they should love Rome; follow Rome; obey Rome. But to the contrary, it's Jesus Christ Who's warned people exactly who and what the Roman Empire truly is and to not be deceived by it.

Which, really, should make you seriously question and doubt whoever fed this false information to you.

Edit: Another thought occurred to me. This "matrix" that people keep referring to. Are you aware that it is Jesus Christ Who said that people would be deceived in the world and by the world? And that in order to follow Him, people must divorce themselves from this world and its system? In other words, how is Christ used as a tool BY the "matrix" when it is Jesus Christ who warned people to flee from it?

geolaureate8

30-11-2009, 10:42 AM

Hi geo,

Jesus Christ has said that everyone is born a sinner into this world. That the wages of sin are death, destruction, and the lake of fire. But if you repent of your sins and follow Christ, you will be saved. Once born spiritually dead because of sin, you will now be spiritually alive in Christ by the Holy Spirit of God living in you.

According to the untrustworthy Bible. The words of Jesus from the omitted books of the Bible ring more true to me. Perhaps there's a reason why authority left them out.

Now let me ask you something. How do you feel about that? Your honest feelings. Beginning with, do you agree with Christ that you are a sinner?

I feel that it's crap. I don't believe we're born sinners, that's just another degrading idea to keep us down. I do believe that people commit immoral acts however, but certainly not what the Bible considers immoral. The Bible thinks peeing on walls, standing too close to the alter, doing your paper route on Saturday, being born a bastard, etc. are all sins, which I disagree with. I also don't feel that following Christ is a moral virtue worthy of salvation. I don't feel that following anyone is a virtue, that's herd mentality and the surrendering of your selfhood.

As Krishnamurti said: "There is no teacher, no pupil, there is no leader, there's no guru, there's no master, no savior. You yourself are the teacher, the pupil, the master, the guru, you are the leader. You are everything."

.

1964

30-11-2009, 11:09 AM

According to the untrustworthy Bible. The words of Jesus from the omitted books of the Bible ring more true to me. Perhaps there's a reason why authority left them out.

I feel that it's crap. I don't believe we're born sinners, that's just another degrading idea to keep us down. I do believe that people commit immoral acts however, but certainly not what the Bible considers immoral. The Bible thinks peeing on walls, standing too close to the alter, doing your paper route on Saturday, being born a bastard, etc. are all sins, which I disagree with. I also don't feel that following Christ is a moral virtue worthy of salvation. I don't feel that following anyone is a virtue, that's herd mentality and the surrendering of your selfhood.

As Krishnamurti said: "There is no teacher, no pupil, there is no leader, there's no guru, there's no master, no savior. You yourself are the teacher, the pupil, the master, the guru, you are the leader. You are everything."

.

I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding what you just said. Are you saying that when Christ says you are a sinner that it's a lie, and you're not a sinner?

nirvana

30-11-2009, 12:31 PM

He's a fictional character created by the Roman Empire to control their subjects. He is now useful as a tool to assert control over people within the matrix.

Jesus is also a useful tool for bringing people together. Useful tool for alot of homeless,drug addicts,alcoholics to empower their lives:)

I think the world would be alot worse and barbaric if jesus had not come about.

tannah

30-11-2009, 02:36 PM

Here's something more believable regarding religion and Christ:

What is Unity?

Unity is a positive, practical, progressive approach to Christianity based on the teachings of Jesus and the power of prayer. Unity honors the universal truths in all religions and respects each individual's right to choose a spiritual path.

What We Believe

God

God is Spirit, the loving source of all that is. God is the one power, all good, everywhere present, all wisdom. God is divine energy, continually creating, expressing and sustaining all creation. In God, we live and move and have our being. In Unity, some other ways we speak of God are Life, Light, Love, Substance, Principle, Law and Universal Mind.

Jesus

We believe that Jesus expressed his divine potential and sought to show humankind how to express ours as well. We see Jesus as a master teacher of universal truths and as our Way Shower. In Unity, we use the term Christ to mean the divinity in humankind. Jesus is the great example of the Christ in expression.

The Nature of Humankind

We are each individual, eternal expressions of God. Our essential nature is divine and therefore inherently good. Our purpose is to express our divine potential as realized and demonstrated by Jesus and other master teachers. The more we awaken to our divine nature, the more fully God expresses in and through our lives.

The Bible

Unity founders Charles and Myrtle Fillmore studied the Bible as history and allegory and interpreted it as a metaphysical representation of humankind's evolutionary journey toward spiritual awakening. In addition, Unity recognizes that the Bible is a complex collection of writings compiled over many centuries. We honor the writings as reflecting the understanding and inspiration of the writers at the time they were written. The Bible continues to be a valuable spiritual resource for us.

Our Teachings

Unity teaches that each person is a unique expression of God created with sacred worth. Living from that awareness transforms our lives and the world. Unity emphasizes the creative power of thought in our life experience. We refer to this as the Law of Mind Action. When we take personal responsibility to choose life-affirming thoughts, words and actions, we experience a more fulfilling and abundant life.

Unity emphasizes the importance of applying spiritual principles in our daily lives.

Unity teachings continue to evolve as we identify, embrace and apply spiritual insights and the spiritual implications of new discoveries.

Prayer and Meditation

Affirmative prayer is the highest form of creative thought. It includes the release of counterproductive, negative thoughts, as well as holding in mind statements of spiritual truth. Through meditation, we experience the presence of God. Prayer and meditation heighten our awareness and thereby transform our lives.

Youth and Family Ministry

Unity recognizes that there are many expressions of family life. All are welcome. Unity creates an affirming environment that fosters positive self-image, personal responsibility and unconditional love and acceptance.

Unity:

* Beholds all children as whole and perfect expressions of God.
* Empowers children to fulfill their divine potential.
* Teaches children to meditate and pray.
* Invites children to experience a loving God.
* Unity provides a strong spiritual foundation for children's lives.

Spiritual Action

In Unity, we feel a sacred responsibility, individually and collectively, to make a positive difference through personal example and active service in our churches, our communities and our world.

http://www.unity.org/aboutunity/index.html

pleasuredome

30-11-2009, 02:40 PM

sheltering cedar

30-11-2009, 03:20 PM

My interest in discussing God's Laws in general or with specificity is
not that I believe such efforts will dismantle the EU;
to the contrary, it seems events are to get worse,
until people demand the reinstatement of God's Perfect Laws of Liberty.
I do so, because His Law is the only rightful Law, and is also
understood upon study.

Seems in the near future, T.H.E.Y plan to blast the world with their
extraterrestrial lies.
To maintain clear thinking, and importantly defined as "right"
thinking, is part of survival.

Absolutely every societal structure to so-called 'political power' in
voting is paper-thin.
T.H.E.Y created a massive illusion of security: we all fell for it;
I want only The Truth.

The Truth is the Spiritual-Being is required to understand and implement
The Laws of God.

The Way home:-
http://www.thewayhomeorfacethefire.net

justnotsure

30-11-2009, 05:33 PM

pleasuredome

30-11-2009, 05:37 PM

The Way home:-
http://www.thewayhomeorfacethefire.net

deary me.

justnotsure

30-11-2009, 05:40 PM

nioz

30-11-2009, 05:43 PM

tannah

30-11-2009, 05:57 PM

I love Unity's teaching but again I would say from my own experience to embrace your dark side and bring it into the light is the only way to manifest and create as they advise otherwise you are creating anger,fear,hatred,war etc.

Jesus healed by "driving out" demons. He first asked them who they were....to me this means anger,hatred,envy...the things of the ego that can run your life if you are not aware of them....then he asked them to leave or commanded them to leave....only then were people healed whole and happy. You must release all of this sin and act differently in future (new thoughts new life).

Many people fail to nurture the observer within them. They are lost within their own brains, with needs of the day and swayed about like weeds in the wind.

If we observe our needs and attachments, angers and fears, and stop reacting to their temptation, they will starve. What is holding them up is emotional energy. What tends to lead to our blocking the inner light is this recipe, Trauma-Resentment-Judgment. Every attachment and fear/anger can be traced back to this "sin" of pride. When they come up for feeding, these needs normally overpowers , and we reach for the chocolate or drink or sex,
chatty chatty radio on can't stand the silence, etc. There is nothing "past" about our condition. It is regularly recreated every day. The original trauma-resentment-judgment evolves through daily temptation. By meditating and praying and nurturing the observer, by abstaining and staying centred, the imposter self will simply shrivel up and die. And then we will recognize what is there at our core, and it isn't a "sinner".

Again I'm going to mention Greg Bradden's book "the lost mode of prayer". I have it as an audiobook actually, and have been listening to it. The secret to spiritual wholeness is in this book.

phildee3

30-11-2009, 06:41 PM

maybe this pic will might help.

http://www.jesus-passion.com/SacredHeartJesus2.jpg

Beautiful pd. Made my day!

Happy, and blessed, feast of St Andrew to you!

pd

snoopsnuffleopagus

30-11-2009, 07:04 PM

With all these talks about how Christians don't worship the true Christ, etc. Maybe people can shed light on what the true Christ actually is. Maybe if we know what Christ is, then we will know what he is not and separate the deceivers from the Truth! :cool:

Salutations stockstalker:

Good Question!

Compare this Data to what you have received.

In Search Of The True Savior

http://yahweh.com/PWMags/PW12-04/search.htm

was Jesus Christ just a CopyCat Savior Myth?

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat2.html

Kind Regards

phildee3

30-11-2009, 08:03 PM

was Jesus Christ just a CopyCat Savior Myth?

Of course he was -
but the perfect one!

clachan

30-11-2009, 08:24 PM

David Icke and Zeitgeist is what gets people thinking. They're not there to tell you how to think, but to free your mind from mind prisons. You say no one controls you, yet you wouldn't dare go against the words of Jesus. So who's really in control? You or Jesus?

No, you're a Bible slave religious fanatic that can't think for himself. And to make yourself feel good about your prison, you insult the people outside the prison running around free. And it's you're fault because we're trying to unlock the gate, but you insist on enslaving your mind. Either that, or you can't see the bars.

No one that truly understands Icke's message would ever repeat anything he said robotically. His books are for the open minded, seeking knowledge. You put all your faith in a debunked book that won't let you think outside the confines of that book. Icke books aren't religious books where you are required to believe it or else you burn in hell. They put forth philosophic concepts and well-researched information.

.

Me,Im in control,God gave us free will to choose.....I chose.
I do not put all my faith in a book,I put all my faith in God and the tools he gave me,ie....an open and reasonable mind,Im aware of everything you are and more.
Cant think for myself ????...LOL,..now that is a joke.

Iam free, Iam me.....Im very happy to live by the teachings of Christ,Im a better person for it and so is the world, if only they went to source and listened....you obviously have not,prefereing the likes of Ian Crane ect.

Ive been following Icke from day one,Ive read his books too and understand him well.....he says the late queen mother was a 9 foot tall blood drinking reptile,what says you ?:)

phildee3

30-11-2009, 08:26 PM

Ive been following Icke from day one,Ive read his books too and understand him well.....he says the late queen mother was a 9 foot tall blood drinking reptile,what says you ?:)

Yum, yum!

I could have her for breakfast!

geolaureate8

30-11-2009, 09:19 PM

Me,Im in control,God gave us free will to choose.....I chose.
I do not put all my faith in a book,I put all my faith in God and the tools he gave me,

Why do you have faith in God? Because you're not certain of his existence, you just hope he exists. You don't need to have faith in electricity, you know it exists. Btw, how can God give you free will if he is omniscient? If he has foreknowledge of the future, everything you do is predetermined because it was destined to be. And which God are talking about here? The Abrahamic God who you only know about because of the Bible. That's the basis of your beLIEf.

ie....an open and reasonable mind,Im aware of everything you are and more.
Cant think for myself ????...LOL,..now that is a joke.

Iam free, Iam me.....Im very happy to live by the teachings of Christ,Im a better person for it and so is the world, if only they went to source and listened....

I was already a Christian for 17 years and I remember what it was like to have an enslaved mind. Chrstian dogma puts a wall around your mind where you will reject any conflicting information, feel offended when people criticize God, etc. If you were truly free, you wouldn't need to rely on Christ for anything including morals.

Let me ask you this. Is it moral because the gods command it or do the gods command it because it is moral?

you obviously have not,prefereing the likes of Ian Crane ect.

Who's that?

Ive been following Icke from day one,Ive read his books too and understand him well.....

You don't understand jack shit. If you understood, you would understand why religion is evil. It's also evident that you don't understand given what you just said below.

he says the late queen mother was a 9 foot tall blood drinking reptile,what says you ?:)

This right here proves you haven't read his works nor understand them. He doesn't say that the queen is a Reptilian. He says that interdimensional Reptilians use humans as a host to manifest in this reality. Just like a scientist puts on a glove in order to stick his hand in a toxic substance. He says that these bloodline families are interbreeding to maintain a biology that allows Reptilians to use them as a host.

You should also realize that David Icke knows he doesn't have empirical proof, and when he provides evidence from sources/witnesses, he says "so and so CLAIMS this and that." Not "this is the truth, you must believe it" like religion wants you to do.

And btw, you are in no position to ridicule Reptilians. You believe in a totalitarian space daddy who magically created the Universe in the dark, and added light later, who made man out of sand and a rib, that talking snake has been decieving mankind for millions of years, and is responsible for all the evil, that space daddy is also his own son by impregnating his own mother to give birth to himself. And for what? To go on a suicide mission to pardon everyone's sins, even for the unborn. Now no one has to take responsibility because our sins have been forgiven, yet we still are prohibited from breaking the 700 laws of the Bible. Then, when we die, we either float up to the carnival in the sky, or we get sent to a sadistic torture chamber realm. Most people will miss out on the sky carnival because little things like doing your paper route on the wrong day is a sin. I rest my case.

.

nirvana

30-11-2009, 09:29 PM

The question of sin and hell for that matter seems to divide many folk on here. I don't want to derail the thread but for me anyone who says that sin lives within them is in denial. Sin needs to be recognised and opened to the light of christ and God to be transformed. You may call Christ and God other things, such as the true/higher self, the light within etc but can you deny that there is greed, adultery, anger, self-obsession, hate, envy, jealousy living within you and unaddressed it will harm you and those around you. It is with great passion and love for you that the Christ wants to heal you, so that you can be a blessing to yourself and the world.

My own theory regarding sin is that it is harmful and negative vibrations that are trapped in our aura etc.
It is these negative vibrations that create hell in us.
Freeing ourselves from sin is about energising our vibrations and jesus is one way to do it. I believe buddhism can be another way.

As all spiritual truth and teachings goes beyond words .

snoopsnuffleopagus

01-12-2009, 06:23 PM

Howdy stockstalker:

I was remiss in my Post and neglected to refer you to this Opus.

I say Opus because it is four large Books, with a fifth promised.

This is the result of a Third Quest Research into the Historicity of Yahshua Messiah/Jesus Christ.

It is the most 'Pressure' that I have seen brought to bear upon this subject.

Theological Doctrines are not a consideration, just Historical.

The four Books contain almost 3,000 pages of Hard Data.

The Author is skilled so it is not overly 'Dry'.

I would say a Must Read for ALL Yahwists, Jews, Christians, Muslims and anyone else who has a serious interest in this subject.

A very High Quality effort.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_P._Meier

Meier's critically-acclaimed series A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus employs tools of historical-critical research to delineate who Jesus of Nazareth was and what he intended. Meier suggests that such research might admit agreement of Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and agnostic scholars.

Volume 1 (1991) differentiates the historical Jesus from the Biblical Jesus. It analyzes sources, including the New Testament and non-canonical works. The latter include the agrapha, the apocryphal gospels (such as the Gospel of Thomas), Josephus, and other Jewish and second-century Roman works. For deciding what comes from Jesus as distinct from early Christian tradition it proposes these primary criteria (pp. 168-77):

1. The criterion of embarrassment: Why invent what would invite difficulty for the early church?
2. The criterion of discontinuity: Why reject as words or deeds of Jesus what cannot be derived from the Judaism of Jesus' time or the early church?
3. The criterion of multiple attestation: Is it more plausible to deny words, sayings, or deeds attributed to Jesus in more than one independent literary source (e.g., Mark, Q, Paul, and John) or literary genre (e.g., parable, miracle story, or prophecy)?
4. The criterion of coherence: Given the claims to historicity from any of the above criteria, are different sayings or deeds evidently inconsistent?
5. The criterion of rejection and execution: If Jesus' ministry came to a violent, public end, what of Jesus' words or deeds could have alienated people, especially powerful people?
The criteria are to be used in concert for mutual correction. Still, any claim is only to the probable, not the certain. The rest of Volume 1 discusses the origins of Jesus as to formative years, "external" influences (language, education, and socioeconomic status), and "internal" influences (family ties and marital and lay status). The volume concludes with a survey of Jesus' life chronology.[1]...........

Kind Regards

clachan

01-12-2009, 09:03 PM

Why do you have faith in God? Because you're not certain of his existence, you just hope he exists. You don't need to have faith in electricity, you know it exists. Btw, how can God give you free will if he is omniscient? If he has foreknowledge of the future, everything you do is predetermined because it was destined to be. And which God are talking about here? The Abrahamic God who you only know about because of the Bible. That's the basis of your beLIEf.

I was already a Christian for 17 years and I remember what it was like to have an enslaved mind. Chrstian dogma puts a wall around your mind where you will reject any conflicting information, feel offended when people criticize God, etc. If you were truly free, you wouldn't need to rely on Christ for anything including morals.

Let me ask you this. Is it moral because the gods command it or do the gods command it because it is moral?

Who's that?

You don't understand jack shit. If you understood, you would understand why religion is evil. It's also evident that you don't understand given what you just said below.

This right here proves you haven't read his works nor understand them. He doesn't say that the queen is a Reptilian. He says that interdimensional Reptilians use humans as a host to manifest in this reality. Just like a scientist puts on a glove in order to stick his hand in a toxic substance. He says that these bloodline families are interbreeding to maintain a biology that allows Reptilians to use them as a host.

You should also realize that David Icke knows he doesn't have empirical proof, and when he provides evidence from sources/witnesses, he says "so and so CLAIMS this and that." Not "this is the truth, you must believe it" like religion wants you to do.

And btw, you are in no position to ridicule Reptilians. You believe in a totalitarian space daddy who magically created the Universe in the dark, and added light later, who made man out of sand and a rib, that talking snake has been decieving mankind for millions of years, and is responsible for all the evil, that space daddy is also his own son by impregnating his own mother to give birth to himself. And for what? To go on a suicide mission to pardon everyone's sins, even for the unborn. Now no one has to take responsibility because our sins have been forgiven, yet we still are prohibited from breaking the 700 laws of the Bible. Then, when we die, we either float up to the carnival in the sky, or we get sent to a sadistic torture chamber realm. Most people will miss out on the sky carnival because little things like doing your paper route on the wrong day is a sin. I rest my case.

.

Well,as you know,I think you are an idiot,but will reply to your stupidity one last time.
GOD IS,open yours eyes and look at the amazing and endless creation.
To deny there is a creator is to be profoundy ignorant....or just plain dumb.
If the cap fits wear it.:)
So I have knowledge rather that faith.Why did you assume otherwise ?

Dont tell me what is the basis of my beliefs are,I call myself a Christian because of the life and teaching of Christ,and for no other reasons that you are imagining.So please,stick to what you know rather than make things up to suit your own agenda.

Free will or pre destiny ?......has it crossed your closed mind that both exist ?
Did you know that quantum theory and gravitational theory dont talk to eachother,physics is having a nervous breakdown,I,ll leave you to follow that train of thought.
You must think outside the box you have been put in.

Correct,you do remember what its like to have an enslaved mind...it shows,you still bere the hall marks.You are now an Ickean:)

Regards reptiles......read Genesis,I dont ridicule the idea entirely,just pointing out that some ideas are a little difficult to comprehend,its easy to sling muck.

IMO....Jesus was the son of God,and God doesn,t have a mother so I,ll ignore that paragraph of your BS.It makes no sense to me.

Its very obvious you still hang on to your false beliefs that you had as a so called Christian.....who said heaven was in the sky ?....dont worry,I thought that too when i was 5:D.....try growing a brain !:D

Good buy

geolaureate8

01-12-2009, 09:38 PM

Well,as you know,I think you are an idiot,but will reply to your stupidity one last time.
GOD IS,open yours eyes and look at the amazing and endless creation.
To deny there is a creator is to be profoundy ignorant....or just plain dumb.
If the cap fits wear it.:)

This criticism doesn't apply to me, sorry. I believe in a Conscious Multiverse which can easily explain the beauty and fine tuned nature of the Universe. (Btw, it's not blind belief. There's certainly scientific evidence to suggest a conscious multiverse.)

So I have knowledge rather that faith.Why did you assume otherwise ?

Because religion is about faith. Those who have faith are the ones who are rewarded. If you believe only because of evidence, you are missing the point. Don't you know that Yahweh wants you to have faith in him?

Dont tell me what is the basis of my beliefs are,I call myself a Christian because of the life and teaching of Christ,and for no other reasons that you are imagining.So please,stick to what you know rather than make things up to suit your own agenda.

The Bible IS the basis of Christianity. No Bible = no Christ, no Yahweh.

Free will or pre destiny ?......has it crossed your closed mind that both exist ?

LOL. Contradictions don't exist in reality, i.e. A square circle.

Did you know that quantum theory and gravitational theory dont talk to eachother,physics is having a nervous breakdown,I,ll leave you to follow that train of thought.

Did you know that string theory unites quantum physics, relativity, and the four forces? You're the only one having a nervous breakdown right now. The scientist have already proven string theory mathematically, and soon we will have tangible evidence with LHC.

You must think outside the box you have been put in.

My mind has expanded far beyond what you can imagine. You're the one still trapped in a box and it's called Christianity.

Correct,you do remember what its like to have an enslaved mind...it shows,you still bere the hall marks.You are now an Ickean:)

An Ickean? Far from it. My intellectual influnces range from people like Tsarion, Dawkins, Wilcock, Maxwell, Carl Sagan, Michio Kaku, Stephen Hawking, Krishnamurti, Alan Watts, Christopher Hitchins, Alex Collier, etc.

All of them have conflicting information and ideas, and thus forces me to think for myself.

Regards reptiles......read Genesis,I dont ridicule the idea entirely,just pointing out that some ideas are a little difficult to comprehend,its easy to sling muck.

IMO....Jesus was the son of God,and God doesn,t have a mother so I,ll ignore that paragraph of your BS.It makes no sense to me.

Oh, ok. You believe Jesus just popped into existence. Mary didn't actually give birth to him. Must be a Catholic thing. *sarcasm

Its very obvious you still hang on to your false beliefs that you had as a so called Christian.....who said heaven was in the sky ?....dont worry,I thought that too when i was 5:D.....try growing a brain !:D

What are you talking about? I reject Christian beliefs, yet you say I still cling to false Christian beliefs? You're the one who clings to false Christian beliefs. You've got it twisted.

I don't believe in heaven though, but I don't deny the many higher dimensions of existence.

phildee3

01-12-2009, 10:53 PM

The Bible IS the basis of Christianity. No Bible = no Christ,

So, so wrong!!

Christ is the basis of Christianity.
The first apostles were sent out to preach a verbal Gospel!
The books are a later, written record.
Churches were well established, and speading like wildfire, decades before they were written!

mauviene

01-12-2009, 11:14 PM

It has been known in occult circles that all religion is symbolism.

No Christ has ever existed..no man has raised from the dead and three days later came back to his disciples.

It is fantasy...it is like Tolkien lord of the rings..well written linguistics based on civilizations that actually existed.

Most importantly though..the bible is a book for social control..

geolaureate8

01-12-2009, 11:19 PM

So, so wrong!!

Christ is the basis of Christianity.
The first apostles were sent out to preach a verbal Gospel!
The books are a later, written record.
Churches were well established, and speading like wildfire, decades before they were written!

Everything you know about Christ, the risen son, comes from the Bible. There's no extra-Biblical accounts of him. There are however, accounts of 13 ordinary men named Christ during those times which were recorded by Josephus. I would suggest the actual man, Yeshua ben Yosef, is what the Gnostic texts and the omitted books of the Bible speak about. He was just a wise philosopher way ahead of his time, not a zombie who walked out of his grave. According to comparative religion expert, Michael Tsarion, about 80% of the Biblical accounts of Jesus are illegitimate.

The point is, if the Bible didn't exist, you would never have heard about Jesus. The Bible is the only reason you know about him.

phildee3

02-12-2009, 10:09 AM

The point is, if the Bible didn't exist, you would never have heard about Jesus. The Bible is the only reason you know about him.

What point is this?

Nothing to do with the point that you made.

You said, "The Bible IS the basis of Christianity. No Bible = no Christ."

You are now saying that the Bible has helped to spread Christianity - which is probably quite true,
(although it has also spread false Christianity by having been compiled and corrupted by Yahwists).

geolaureate8

02-12-2009, 10:43 AM

What point is this?

Nothing to do with the point that you made.

Yes it does and I'll show you why.

You said, "The Bible IS the basis of Christianity. No Bible = no Christ."

You are now saying that the Bible has helped to spread Christianity - which is probably quite true,

I didn't quite say that. I said: "The point is, if the Bible didn't exist, you would never have heard about Jesus. The Bible is the only reason you know about him."

This most certainly supports my other statement that the Bible is the basis of Christianity.

My point is that people say "the basis of Christianity is Christ." But the basis of the belief in Christ is the Bible. You can't claim that Christ is the basis of Christianity, without first learning about him in the Bible.

(although it has also spread false Christianity by having been compiled and corrupted by Yahwists).

So you admit that your Holy book was compiled by corrupt people.

phildee3

02-12-2009, 11:35 AM

the basis of the belief in Christ is the Bible.

You've changed your statement again!

Now you're talking about modern belief in Christ.
The first Christians (ie the basis of Christianity) had no written texts pertaining to the new religion.

Those who read about Christ in the Bible did not form the basis of Christianity - the apostles did!

So you admit that your Holy book was compiled by corrupt people.

My holy book??

It's not even a book! It's a collection of books - some holy to Jews, some holy to Christians.

geolaureate8

02-12-2009, 11:46 AM

You've changed your statement again!

I didn't change it, I elaborated and added to it.

Now you're talking about modern belief in Christ.
The first Christians (ie the basis of Christianity) had no written texts pertaining to the new religion.

The first Christians? You mean the Gnostics? They had their texts before Orthodox Christianity. Gnosticism is in direct contradiction to Orthodox Christianity, so they hardly could be considered the "basis of Christianity (Orthodox)."

Those who read about Christ in the Bible did not form the basis of Christianity - the apostles did!

I hope your joking. You only know about the apostles because of the Bible. You don't know that Christ had followers that were actually the basis of Christianity. You only think that because of the Bible. And again, the basis of Christianity is the Bible. THERE IS NO CHRISTIAN BELIEF THAT IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE.

My holy book??

It's not even a book! It's a collection of books - some holy to Jews, some holy to Christians.

Red Herring fallacy.

.

phildee3

02-12-2009, 12:23 PM

The first Christians? You mean the Gnostics?

No.
I mean what I said - the apostles.

I hope your joking. You only know about the apostles because of the Bible.

So??

It could have been handed down orally.

Or the Dead Sea Scrolls could have been the first publication of the account.

The Bible is simply a record of what happened before it was written (ie that the apsostles founded the early churches and had followers).

THERE IS NO CHRISTIAN BELIEF THAT IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE.

That is simply untrue.
There's are loads of them!!

phildee3

02-12-2009, 12:39 PM

Red Herring fallacy.

No it's not.
The Bible is the holy book of Judeo-Christians.
I am not a Judeo-Christian.

nirvana

02-12-2009, 01:10 PM

Keep it simple .Spiritual truth goes beyond words .The kingdom of god is inside you and all around you.
Meaning we are in a sea of of energy what we believe in and have faith in will help us to manifest.

Whats takes us away from spiritual truth is when we argue over it and get lost in our own heads :)

phildee3

02-12-2009, 01:12 PM

Keep it simple .Spiritual truth goes beyond words .

...he said. ;)

geolaureate8

02-12-2009, 07:06 PM

No it's not.
The Bible is the holy book of Judeo-Christians.
I am not a Judeo-Christian.

Every single post I've ever seen from you indicates that you're a fundamentalist Christian, and unless you are, I see no other reason for you to defend it.

So you're not a Gnostic nor a Christian? If you believe in salvation through Christ, you are a Christian.

phildee3

02-12-2009, 07:57 PM

Every single post I've ever seen from you indicates that you're a fundamentalist Christian, and unless you are, I see no other reason for you to defend it.

I do not defend any form of fundamentalism.

It is always extremely polarised and is therefore contary to the peace that our Lord declared.

All fundamentalist "Christians" that I'm aware of are Judeo-Christians."

So you're not a Gnostic nor a Christian? If you believe in salvation through Christ, you are a Christian.

Stick what label on me that you like.
I will tear it off!

I am that I am.

geolaureate8

02-12-2009, 08:58 PM

Stick what label on me that you like.
I will tear it off!

Ashamed to be a Christian are we? You don't get the privilege of being without a label if you still believe in Yahweh, salvation through Christ, and the Bible. Only free thinkers, sorry. Free thinkers aren't trapped in a labeled box like Christians. You can deny that you aren't in that labeled box, but still you are.

I am that I am.

Is that so? Then why submit yourself to another being? It's one thing to respect Jesus as a wise man, but to worship him or believe only he gives salvation, you have thrown your power in the trash.

phildee3

02-12-2009, 09:13 PM

Ashamed to be a Christian are we?

Nope -
if that's what I am.

You don't get the privilege of being without a label if you still believe in Yahweh, salvation through Christ, and the Bible.

I don't believe in anything.
I know what I know, period.

geolaureate8

02-12-2009, 09:28 PM

nope.

So you admit you deserve the label, Christian.

I don't believe in anything.

Certainly. You beLIEve in a lot of things.

I know what I know, period.

Problem of Epistemology. The things you claim to know, you can't possibly know with 100% certainty, or any certainty for that matter.

phildee3

02-12-2009, 09:44 PM

So you admit you deserve the label, Christian.

Nope.

What I am is what I am.

I don't need no labels.

geolaureate8

02-12-2009, 10:15 PM

Nope.

What I am is what I am.

I don't need no labels.

Do you, or do you not submit to the will of "the Lord" and Jesus Christ?

therecovery

03-12-2009, 12:28 AM

The true Messiah (Prophet Jesus) will return during the time of the Antichrist and he will kill the Antichrist.

phildee3

03-12-2009, 10:40 AM

Do you, or do you not submit to the will of "the Lord" and Jesus Christ?

I submit to the will of my lord (of course - that's what makes him "lord" :rolleyes:).

That which was/is in Jesus Christ - the logos - is the will of my lord.

1964

03-12-2009, 12:28 PM

I do not defend any form of fundamentalism.

It is always extremely polarised and is therefore contary to the peace that our Lord declared.

All fundamentalist "Christians" that I'm aware of are Judeo-Christians."

Stick what label on me that you like.
I will tear it off!

I am that I am.

Hi phildee,

I saw in another thread how you said you're a practicing Catholic. So then I wonder why you try to be so mysterious in other threads about what you are and who it is that you follow. Since you're a Roman Catholic, why not simply say so?

phildee3

03-12-2009, 01:17 PM

Hi phildee,

I saw in another thread how you said you're a practicing Catholic. So then I wonder why you try to be so mysterious in other threads about what you are and who it is that you follow. Since you're a Roman Catholic, why not simply say so?

Because I'm not.
I'm independent of Rome.

My ordaining bishop was one of the episcopi vagantes.
Having taken no vows of obedience (none were required) I do not come under his jurisdiction, nor under the jurisdiction of any earthly organization.

Why are you guys so eager to pin a label on me?
You'd be great working in a supermarket! :cool:

1964

03-12-2009, 01:45 PM

Because I'm not.
I'm independent of Rome.

My ordaining bishop was one of the episcopi vagantes.

So you consider yourself a Catholic, and not a Roman Catholic. I still wonder the same thing. Why not simply tell people, then, that this is what you are. What you do, instead, only makes it seem like you're playing some sort of dishonest game - all this talk about how labels don't apply to you, when you've clearly identified yourself as a practicing Catholic in other threads.

phildee3

03-12-2009, 02:02 PM

So you consider yourself a Catholic, and not a Roman Catholic. I still wonder the same thing. Why not simply tell people, then, that this is what you are. What you do, instead, only makes it seem like you're playing some sort of dishonest game - all this talk about how labels don't apply to you, when you've clearly identified yourself as a practicing Catholic in other threads.

You still don't get it, do you?
I don't "consider myself" anything that's seperate from the all-that-is.

WYSIWYG

You are free to wear whatever labels you wish.
I am free to wear none, if I so wish.
Why does that bother you?

phildee3

03-12-2009, 02:27 PM

Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58)

1964

03-12-2009, 02:32 PM

You still don't get it, do you?
I don't "consider myself" anything that's seperate from the all-that-is.

WYSIWYG

What I see is the way you change your answer from one thread to another.

phildee3

03-12-2009, 02:40 PM

What I see is the way you change your answer from one thread to another.

That's because the questions change!

If they don't my answers are the same said in other words.

1964

03-12-2009, 02:43 PM

You still don't get it, do you?
I don't "consider myself" anything that's seperate from the all-that-is.

WYSIWYG

You are free to wear whatever labels you wish.
I am free to wear none, if I so wish.
Why does that bother you?

I don't care what label you want to apply to yourself, or not apply to yourself. What does bother me, however, is when someone is being sneaky and dishonest. Then I can't trust anything they say after that. I don't know why you would label yourself a practicing Catholic in one thread, and then deny it in another. That's why I asked you about it - I thought maybe you'd have a reasonable explanation. But it seems you just want to play this silly game instead.

1964

03-12-2009, 02:46 PM

That's because the questions change!

If they don't my answers are the same said in other words.

So depending on the question, you are sometimes a practicing Catholic; and sometimes not. It would be just as silly to tell me your name also changes depending on the question you're being asked.

Like I said, phildee, I asked you about it cause I thought there might be a reasonable explanation. But you clearly don't want to explain, so I'll just leave it alone now. It's not like this is going anywhere productive.

phildee3

03-12-2009, 02:55 PM

So depending on the question, you are sometimes a practicing Catholic; and sometimes not.

Correct. Depending on the questioner's definition of "Catholic."
I have never said that I don't practice what I define as Catholic practice?

I asked you about it cause I thought there might be a reasonable explanation.

Explanation for what?

dhama_initiative

03-12-2009, 03:05 PM

1964 I had a similar frustrating talk with him last year. He wont talk without changing your qs to steer it where he wants to go.

phildee3

03-12-2009, 03:21 PM

He wont talk without changing your qs to steer it where he wants to go.

If that were true then why would I ask for clarification of the last question?? :rolleyes:

geolaureate8

03-12-2009, 09:15 PM

I submit to the will of my lord (of course - that's what makes him "lord" :rolleyes:).

I rest my case. You're not free, you're mind's not free. You proudly subject yourself to SOMEONE ELSE's WILL.

That which was/is in Jesus Christ - the logos - is the will of my lord.

Equivocation fallacy. You can't just define Jesus as the Universe. Either he's Jesus or nothing at all.

And so the truth comes out, that you do have a label for yourself which is "Catholic", but not the Roman kind, they were evil :rolleyes:

You can try to act like your not controled by Romans and being a part of "all that is," but you are still being controled by another authority and another box of practicing Catholicism.

phildee3

03-12-2009, 09:31 PM

I rest my case. You're not free, you're mind's not free. You proudly subject yourself to SOMEONE ELSE's WILL.

Wrong again!
He in us, and us in him.
It's all ONE!

There is no "someone else."

...you are still being controled by another authority and another box of practicing Catholicism.

...and again.
I am under no vows of obligation to any organisation or individual bishop.
I am not a member of any group.
I adhere to no dogma.

Catholicism is something I do -
not something I am.

geolaureate8

03-12-2009, 09:47 PM

Wrong again!
He in us, and us in him.
It's all ONE!

There is no "someone else."

I believe in flying spaghetti monster. He's in us and us in him. It's all ONE, there is no "someone else." You see, you can make statements like this with anything. You really are doing a disservice to the real Universe. Why can't you accept the Universe for what it IS, rather than taking something random and calling it the Universe. Jesus was just another divine manifestation of the Universe no different than the rest of us. He said "what I can do, you can do also." You just really want Jesus to be your superman, but really we are all equally capable of what he did.

...and again.
I am under no vows of obligation to any organisation or individual bishop.
I am not a member of any group.
I adhere to no dogma.

Catholicism is something I do,
not something I am.

How can you adhere to no dogma if you practice Cathicism? That's what religion is, adhering to dogma. Can you call an anarchist who does whatever he wants a religious person? Or does he have to follow the religious laws?

phildee3

03-12-2009, 11:02 PM

Why can't you accept the Universe for what it IS, rather than taking something random and calling it the Universe.

Uh, I don't think I've said anything about the universe with regard to this discussion. :confused:

He said "what I can do, you can do also."

uh, I thought that's what I said (using different words):
He in us, and us in him. It's all ONE! There is no "someone else."

How can you adhere to no dogma if you practice Cathicism?

uh, is that catechism or catholicism?

My definition of catechism is that which was practiced by the early church - the original definition.
The Vatican arm of Big Brother has totally changed the meaning of the word!
My definition of Catholicism appears to be different than yours if you think it has to involve dogma.
To me it involves no more than the practice of the seven sacraments.
This is also accepted by many others as one of the definitions of Catholicism - and, imo, the classic definition.

That's what religion is, adhering to dogma.

Again, you have a different definition - mine is the original, classic, etymological one; not the new, doublespeak, NWO, big-brother twisted definition.
re = again
ligio = to join
religion = a practice by which we attempt to rejoin with our source.

You can invent your own, if you like.
Experiment.
In fact, that's probably the best way!

Can you call an anarchist who does whatever he wants a religious person?

Yes,
but only if what s/he wants is to join with source.