Cheque books to be abolished

[antinwo]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1230044/End-cheque-book-Traditional-paper-payment-abolished-2018.html

Just another step towards a cashless society:mad:

[pinkfreud]

that's disgusting :mad:

this is a deliberate trap for people who don't own credit cards and conduct online transactions and stuff, you know?

i belong in the stone age era as far as wired transfers etc. go. like i said i don't own a credit card, don't have paypal or whatever and only use my atm/debit card while shopping if i'm short on cash; i get paid via cheques or demand draft for my freelancing work, i choose not to use escrow and the like.

what about some of us who get the dough by doing some online work for people outside our borders? no cheques then i see :|

[loopy2222]

Some businesses rely on using cheque books :rolleyes:

Oh well I suppose it had to heppen sooner or later :(

[pinkfreud]

oh yay, let's all banish the more trustworthy chequebook and take to paypal, escrow etc. so our info can be disclosed to 3rd parties/ organisations other than paypal :mad:


PayPal .....Bastards! (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92083)



mofos.

[djhooker]

hopefully the evils of money will be eradicated by 2018.

[yozhik]

Oh well I suppose it had to heppen sooner or later :(

Errr ... no it didn't.
Only if we accept it and comply with it.

[lucky884]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't actually need a cheque book in order to write a cheque. As it is a bill of exchange, you can write it out manually, on anything that's handy.

[yozhik]

My question is; why use banks?

If everyone took their 'money' out and starved them of funds ... what do you think would happen?

If everyone refused to be 'paid' in fiat currency ... what do you think would happen?

The tail is wagging the dog ... and we're so focused on the small stuff, we're missing the obvious solutions.

[beldazar]

My question is; why use banks?

If everyone took their 'money' out and starved them of funds ... what do you think would happen?

If everyone refused to be 'paid' in fiat currency ... what do you think would happen?

The tail is wagging the dog ... and we're so focused on the small stuff, we're missing the obvious solutions.

Some people are forced to have a bank account. I was...I didn't have one for most of my life until I was told that my rent benefit check could no longer be cashed at the Municipal offices and had to be put into an account. Now they are doing their damnedest to stop sending a cheque with the fear it will get lost in the post :rolleyes: and want to put it directly into my bank account.

One of the main papers has also done a story where people will be charged for transactions at the 'hole in the wall'

All too sneaky.....they are reining us in and taking more money off us drip by drip. I only found out the other day that the normally 'free' number 1571 BT for people who leave messages on the phone is now charged for :mad:

[yozhik]

Is there any law that says we are obligated to accept a cheque as payment?
There is a nagging seed of a thought in the back of my brain telling me 'payment' needs to be agreed by both parties.

Might be worth investigating ...

Could 'being forced to have a bank account to accept payment you do not recognise or agree to' be construed as duress and coercion?

Just a random brain fart ...

[beldazar]

Your brain fart may be onto something there but if this was the case I would have to travel quite a distance for a cash payment. I can't see them putting money in an envelope and I don't think that is wise anyway.

[dusthead]

Cheque books abolished!

As someone who has previously worked in retail I can only say - GOOD RIDDANCE!

The damnned things took ages to put through the tills and wasted a huge amount of time. They made queueing customers unnecessarily angry and added to the suffering of exploited and underpaid employees who just want to survive another week slaving away for bastard-incorporated. Cheques are outdated and thank the maker they are being consigned to the dustbin.

[rydeon]

Errr ... no it didn't.
Only if we accept it and comply with it.

Exactly.

What happened to banks having an independant voice and being separate from the supposed online transactions!?

I know people who rely on cheque payments from overseas for internet business.

Now this will force them to beholden to banks and have their business snooped on!

Suddenly smashing aside cheques like this in one fell swoop looks like the NWO is pressing onward.
Soon cash will be nonexistant if we don't make a stand and sweep aside the main 3 parties who back the NWO!

[yozhik]

Just another small thing ... if the 'money' is a benefit payment, again alarm bells are ringing ... I believe it is illegal for fees to be taken from it.

Something about the 'benefit' can not be reduced by fees and charges.

Damn ... wish I had more specifics ... I'm sure I read something about it on the Freeman On The Land section ... people even reclaiming the fees back from the bank after having been charged them ...

Sorry I'm being so vague and generic.

[beldazar]

Don't be sorry Yozhic....:cool:

[eddieb]

Try cashing a cheque in Australia. Go to a shop and ask if you can pay by cheque . The person behind the counter will piss his/her self with laughter.

[yozhik]

Don't be sorry Yozhic....:cool:

Knew I'd seen it somewhere :)

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62527

[illuminumnuts]

Now they are doing their damnedest to stop sending a cheque with the fear it will get lost in the post :rolleyes: and want to put it directly into my bank account.

They want to control everything. This is well illustrated with the direct debit versus standing order dichotomy. The only difference between the 2 payment methods is that the company controls the former and the customer controls the latter. You don't usually get the best deals with standing orders and some companies try to dissuade you from using them or even flatly refuse to accept them. It's by no means just about ease of payment.



All too sneaky.....they are reining us in and taking more money off us drip by drip. I only found out the other day that the normally 'free' number 1571 BT for people who leave messages on the phone is now charged for.

I didn't know that. Another common rip off technique. Get people using something, then start charging for it. I digress a little, but something I found out stunned me yesterday. British Gas are now charging you £30 per gas or electricity account just to migrate to their cheapest tariff!!! :mad::mad::mad:

[beldazar]

Knew I'd seen it somewhere :)

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62527

Wow! nice one Yozhic! :)

[dreamweaver]

Cheque books abolished!

As someone who has previously worked in retail I can only say - GOOD RIDDANCE!

The damnned things took ages to put through the tills and wasted a huge amount of time. They made queueing customers unnecessarily angry and added to the suffering of exploited and underpaid employees who just want to survive another week slaving away for bastard-incorporated. Cheques are outdated and thank the maker they are being consigned to the dustbin.

*thinks back to era when students would write out cheques for a bag of chips*

I see where you're coming from with this, life was a bit less convenient (especially for people working tills) before online banking.

But this is just a stepping stone towards making cash payments and barter illegal. They want us all to use their system, where they can track all your transactions, so that we have to use it or starve. :mad:

[yozhik]

Try cashing a cheque in Australia. Go to a shop and ask if you can pay by cheque . The person behind the counter will piss his/her self with laughter.

Just so I comprehend ...

Shops are refusing cheques for payment ... and yet people are still having to accept cheques for payment for their sweat equity?

Is that correct?

[freedom1st]

My question is; why use banks?

If everyone took their 'money' out and starved them of funds ... what do you think would happen?

If everyone refused to be 'paid' in fiat currency ... what do you think would happen?

The tail is wagging the dog ... and we're so focused on the small stuff, we're missing the obvious solutions.

Totally agree with you (on this and many other subjects - you're amongst those who seem to make the most sense on this forum). The problem is, as I'm sure you know, it takes large numbers of people to have the desired effect, and even though it should be starting to get a bit bloody obvious by now, it seems the masses dare not move out of their bubbles and as such they're not even aware of reality let alone looking for solutions. Island anyone?

[yozhik]

The problem is [...] it takes large numbers of people to have the desired effect, and even though it should be starting to get a bit bloody obvious by now, it seems the masses dare not move out of their bubbles and as such they're not even aware of reality let alone looking for solutions. Island anyone?

Exactly.

However, can we really 'blame' people for being in a 'bubble'?
No point in trying to assign blame anyway; does nothing positive.

The Ministry if [dis]Information's terrorism campaign is working; it is having its desired affect.
Yes - there is a War of Terror ... being waged by governments on the people.
Divide and rule.
We're also so confused, battered and shell shocked that we no longer communicate or interact.

FFS ... social behaviour is now deemed anti-social and criminal !! :mad:
Divide and rule.

'They' know that if we were EVER able to 'assemble' in numbers and talk ... truly talk ... the game would be up.
Look at the pubs ... empty.
Schools - historically a great place for meeting others - now ravaged by Common Purpose.
Communities torn apart.
The economy is ... well ... lets be kind and say 'manipulated for political reasons'.

I've said them already, but I feel compelled to write them again;

The tail is wagging the dog.
Divide and rule.

[freedom1st]

Exactly.

However, can we really 'blame' people for being in a 'bubble'?
No point in trying to assign blame anyway; does nothing positive.

The Ministry if [dis]Information's terrorism campaign is working; it is having its desired affect.
Yes - there is a War of Terror ... being waged by governments on the people.
Divide and rule.
We're also so confused, battered and shell shocked that we no longer communicate or interact.

FFS ... social behaviour is now deemed anti-social and criminal !! :mad:
Divide and rule.

'They' know that if we were EVER able to 'assemble' in numbers and talk ... truly talk ... the game would be up.
Look at the pubs ... empty.
Schools - historically a great place for meeting others - now ravaged by Common Purpose.
Communities torn apart.
The economy is ... well ... lets be kind and say 'manipulated for political reasons'.

I've said them already, but I feel compelled to write them again;

The tail is wagging the dog.
Divide and rule.

Again I completely agree. I think the problem is that people have lost the ability to 'think' and in particular they have lost the ability to think independently, critically or outside the box. I still find it hard to believe that so many people have been so easily programed/brainwashed. I don't blame them as such but I do find it hugely frustrating because it is they, in their large numbers, who are holding us back - providing gov/tptb can get a big enough pool of people to go along with their propoganda then they can carry on as they are. Meanwhile there are lone voices screaming the truth but they are not being heard. Of course at some point in the future our truth will be held as self evident, which is no consolation because by then it may well be too late. There are solutions to the problems we have today but it keeps coming back to the numbers. For my part I have discovered just how small this world really is - I would dearly like to get a way from all this but it seems there's nowhere to go and yet I'm still left thinking there must be something we can do, if only for ourselves.

[rollotomaz1]

My question is; why use banks?

If everyone took their 'money' out and starved them of funds ... what do you think would happen?

If everyone refused to be 'paid' in fiat currency ... what do you think would happen?

The tail is wagging the dog ... and we're so focused on the small stuff, we're missing the obvious solutions.

AHH GOOD MAN, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR MONTHS ;) WAKE UP FOLKS, BUY THINGS WHICH YOU WILL NEED IN THE FURTURE TO AID YOUR PASSAGE, TOOLS, SUPPLIES TO LAST YOU AT LEAST 12 MONTHS.

This is what I have been banging on about for months now, the banks are using our own money against us, as soon as I get any cleared cheques I draw all our cash out immediately, my bank manager hates me, all he has ever done is slammed us for going slightly over budget, even when we had a wages clip in and clearing which our wife employer has been doing for over 5 years, they know fine well the money is good, but the bank is going to pay us all of that back very soon :D.

The internet and electronic systems is why all of our high street banks have closed, we are cutting our own bloody throats and cannot see it, the RBS has noe also got to split up its holdings and sell off the high street banking outlets, what do you think will hapen to the rest of our banks then :(

Can you not see what the crafty bastards are up to, they are closing in on us rather fast, soon we will all be scuppered, up the creek without a paddle, its time to start bartering and spending our cash with those who really need it, a great big boycot of the banks and supermarkets while we still have time, they do not fecking care whatsoever about you and me, why in gods name help them to completely destroy the outlets.

Once as the system is locked down you will see price increases like you have never seen before, we are at 5.05 per gallon of fuel now, this time next year its going to be 10 pound a gallon for sure, stand still if you must,

We are ready and have been bartering for years, we have never owned a cheque book or cards, just a first reserve account, its comming folks, don't say I never told you so.

THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS HEADING VERY QUICKLY TOWARDS COLLAPSE, THEY HAVE TOOK MANY OF OUR PENSIONS, GIVEN THEMSELVES HUGE BONUSES, AND ARE LOOKING FOR MORE WAYS TO ACCUMULATE GREATER WEALTH BY GETTING RID OF THEIR OVERHEADS, IE THE HIGH STREET BANKS, SO THEY HAVE NO COMMUNITY TAX AND OVERHEADS TO SHELL OUT, THE BANK CLERKS WILL ALSO BE OUT OF A JOB, YOU KNOW WHERE THIS IS GOING YET YOU STAND STILL AND WAIT FOR THE WOUNDED BULL TO HIT YOU SQUARE IN THE CHEST.

Sory for repeating myself here in parts, but its unbefuckinbeleivable that no one is reacting, and no hard feelings by the way and good luck to everyone ;)

[mrs houdini]

Hi, I never had a bank account for most of my life, untill my employer's started using the bacs system, so now I also withdraw all my slave wages at once and I have been asked if I have a problem I just reply "that I like to use my own money for what I deem fit". None of thier damed buisness anyway.

Love and Peace,

Linda, :p

[rollotomaz1]

Again I completely agree. I think the problem is that people have lost the ability to 'think' and in particular they have lost the ability to think independently, critically or outside the box. I still find it hard to believe that so many people have been so easily programed/brainwashed. I don't blame them as such but I do find it hugely frustrating because it is they, in their large numbers, who are holding us back - providing gov/tptb can get a big enough pool of people to go along with their propoganda then they can carry on as they are. Meanwhile there are lone voices screaming the truth but they are not being heard. Of course at some point in the future our truth will be held as self evident, which is no consolation because by then it may well be too late. There are solutions to the problems we have today but it keeps coming back to the numbers. For my part I have discovered just how small this world really is - I would dearly like to get a way from all this but it seems there's nowhere to go and yet I'm still left thinking there must be something we can do, if only for ourselves.

Very wise words Freedom, I get rather passionate about these kind of things being a pro lifer as they say, but we must keep on telling it as it is in the light that some might listen and pass the word to others, then its everyone for themselves once it all goes pear shape, please don't scorn the sender thereafter :(.

[rollotomaz1]

Hi, I never had a bank account for most of my life, untill my employer's started using the bacs system, so now I also withdraw all my slave wages at once and I have been asked if I have a problem I just reply "that I like to use my own money for what I deem fit". None of thier damed buisness anyway.

Love and Peace,

Linda, :p

What will happen once the bank reclamation scenario really take hold you will see many accounts being dumped, we have made plans for the wife to get paid in cash in the event of this happening, its happening on a greater scale since we have enetered this latest depression, if we think its not yet that bad just wait until the festive season is over and then we will know for sure what's happening,

We have just denied the chancellor much funds of late by getting rid of the car and TV and one of our mobile phones, this has saved us at least 3 grand for the year, we are still living very comfortably and make all of our own food from raw materials which save us another couple of grand a year, I know of many others who have gone even further to cut costs but not essential needs.

We have just lost one of our longest searving pubs last week and a shitehouse whitehouse is opening up next door, to get people right into debt buying things they don't need, if this shop closes then its a real warning sign as to what's coming next, things will start to trickle down at first, then it will be a landslide collapse, the power in charge are very good at conning the masses via TV and will stall the distress right up to the last minute.

We hope to move to a smaller community very soon to a small village with 2
farms and about 25 tennants, so we will have much better piece of mind, we know nearly all the people in the group of craftsmen.

[freedom1st]

What will happen once the bank reclamation scenario really take hold you will see many accounts being dumped, we have made plans for the wife to get paid in cash in the event of this happening, its happening on a greater scale since we have enetered this latest depression, if we think its not yet that bad just wait until the festive season is over and then we will know for sure what's happening,

We have just denied the chancellor much funds of late by getting rid of the car and TV and one of our mobile phones, this has saved us at least 3 grand for the year, we are still living very comfortably and make all of our own food from raw materials which save us another couple of grand a year, I know of many others who have gone even further to cut costs but not essential needs.

We have just lost one of our longest searving pubs last week and a shitehouse whitehouse is opening up next door, to get people right into debt buying things they don't need, if this shop closes then its a real warning sign as to what's coming next, things will start to trickle down at first, then it will be a landslide collapse, the power in charge are very good at conning the masses via TV and will stall the distress right up to the last minute.

We hope to move to a smaller community very soon to a small village with 2
farms and about 25 tennants, so we will have much better piece of mind, we know nearly all the people in the group of craftsmen.

Sounds like you've got it sussed. I would love to do what you have done but as I'm a single parent I honestly don't think I could manage it on my own (not to mention that the children are coming upto their GCSE's which I accept may not be of any use to them before long but it's not my choice to make as to whether they stay in the system or not). I do intend to find an eco-village of some sort where I can contribute to the overall self sufficiency of the members therein but quite honestly I'm not too sure which country to go for. I think what you propose is correct but it takes more than one person to achieve it and so a community of like minded people is probably the way to go. Any suggestions?

[illuminumnuts]

Sounds like you've got it sussed. I would love to do what you have done but as I'm a single parent I honestly don't think I could manage it on my own (not to mention that the children are coming upto their GCSE's which I accept may not be of any use to them before long but it's not my choice to make as to whether they stay in the system or not). I do intend to find an eco-village of some sort where I can contribute to the overall self sufficiency of the members therein but quite honestly I'm not too sure which country to go for. I think what you propose is correct but it takes more than one person to achieve it and so a community of like minded people is probably the way to go. Any suggestions?

What's the point? You'll just end up getting invaded or something. Can't have errant human beings setting a good example can we? :rolleyes:

[baxter]

Got until 2018 to make a scene if it is voted ;)

[candygirl]

Sounds like you've got it sussed. I would love to do what you have done but as I'm a single parent I honestly don't think I could manage it on my own (not to mention that the children are coming upto their GCSE's which I accept may not be of any use to them before long but it's not my choice to make as to whether they stay in the system or not). I do intend to find an eco-village of some sort where I can contribute to the overall self sufficiency of the members therein but quite honestly I'm not too sure which country to go for. I think what you propose is correct but it takes more than one person to achieve it and so a community of like minded people is probably the way to go. Any suggestions?

I agree with virtually everything that has been put so far by everyone.
Time for every human to take a stand.
I am also a single parent although mine are not doing GCSE's.
I have been searching around for a place to go. ....

UK sucks right now as it probably does everywhere else.
My local coop abolished cheque payments earlier this year now most of the big ones have.
cg

[mr_pixie]

It was on the front of a newspaper yesterday that are going to stat charging people for hole in the wall cards. :(

[baxter]

It was on the front of a newspaper yesterday that are going to stat charging people for hole in the wall cards. :(

Surely that could be reclaimed from the unfair bank charge route people have been successful with

[flickflack]

My question is; why use banks?



Well, I like to see my savings grow in larger numbers. And my credit card keeps track of how much money that I use, simple.

I never use credit loans, I only use the money I already have.

[rollotomaz1]

Sounds like you've got it sussed. I would love to do what you have done but as I'm a single parent I honestly don't think I could manage it on my own (not to mention that the children are coming upto their GCSE's which I accept may not be of any use to them before long but it's not my choice to make as to whether they stay in the system or not). I do intend to find an eco-village of some sort where I can contribute to the overall self sufficiency of the members therein but quite honestly I'm not too sure which country to go for. I think what you propose is correct but it takes more than one person to achieve it and so a community of like minded people is probably the way to go. Any suggestions?

Hi Freedom

If I had to choose I would stay where I was, its a small community of around 20 families, mostly elderly and a couple of younger families and a fireman and his wife, not many skills as we have, but on the whole a quietish place, a few undesirables but they would easily be taken care of.

I can't really comment on your situation because I don't know you or the area etc, but I would steer clear of the yuppie commune types unless it was a proper working entity, so many of these lovie dovie clans are not going to be able to work for themselves, some of these people have big money so can live outside the system but reley on it totally, they play away the hours, we are living ours to work for ourselves, what we make is of our own hand and for us to do what we want with.

If you have children of 12 years and above who are fit and strong they would be desireable by any budding community because they can work harder than older peoples, our group have talked about this scenario and have come up with that age as a limit any younger and they would be a burden to any up and coming community in time or hardship, this is why we are very saddened on the thought of really young couples with no money or skills.

You say your children are coming up GCSE, well all I could advise is, watch the climate and if things don't improve, try and get them to learn real skills which will benefit the family unit as a whole.

If things carry on deteriorating like they are your going to find more and more people looking into gather together, but be aware of shisters, they probably won't advertise the fact because they will be visible to others, so keep your ears to the ground for this kind of thing, anyone who has something genuine and physical to offer are more than likely genuine,

I like to think we have got things as right as possible, but there is still more that needs to be done, we have taken all of our eggs from the one basket and split them up so we at least have some form of fuel for heating and cooking.

Cookng is done via propane, 2 x 47kg bottles will last us 18 months for 90 quid this way we get better heat and cooking as LPG burns slightly hotter than town/natural gas, water heating for drinks is done on top of the wood stove and most of our timber comes from the river bank, there is always plenty to pick at after a flood, enough to keep dozen of families for the whole winter, which we collect through the summer nights when everyone is at home during dinner times.

If the mains gas goes off that's it, with bottles will last at least years worth of fuel for cooking.

Hot water comes from the wood stove boiler and you can also cook on it too
this gets rid of the service industrial supplies, this is what we are aiming for all my equipment that I make my shoes and musical instrument and leatherwork etc with is manual and its a real pleasure to work like this.

Like the couple in Austrailia who took themselves out of society way out in the bush, is one way but they were still reliant on those plane drops once a month, a like minded smaller tightly knit community is the safest and best place to be in times of trouble, it gives you valuable protection and peace of mind, you would not survive as a small family on your own, unless you had plenty of money and supplies ,weapons etc.

And on a closing not for now, if one has something worth fighting foe you should, tooth and nail period.

[mr_pixie]

Surely that could be reclaimed from the unfair bank charge route people have been successful with

More like the poor lose out first.

[yozhik]

Well, I like to see my savings grow in larger numbers. I only use the money I already have.

So do I.

The questions hasn't been answered; why use banks?

[rydeon]

Surely that could be reclaimed from the unfair bank charge route people have been successful with

If that's the case then you know it's time to rip all your money out of the banks and store it in a secure gun cabinet at home!

As for interest...
Well the interest rates aren't exactly happy as larry for savers right now are they?

[flickflack]

As for interest...
Well the interest rates aren't exactly happy as larry for savers right now are they?

Depends on what bank you are using. Some banks have pretty high interest rates and doesn't run charges just for using the credit card in a shop, or even take out some money in a mini-bank.

[baxter]

If that's the case then you know it's time to rip all your money out of the banks and store it in a secure gun cabinet at home!

As for interest...
Well the interest rates aren't exactly happy as larry for savers right now are they?

This is true although ISAs can still be half decent but then you are restricted to access.

[freedom1st]

Hi Freedom

If I had to choose I would stay where I was, its a small community of around 20 families, mostly elderly and a couple of younger families and a fireman and his wife, not many skills as we have, but on the whole a quietish place, a few undesirables but they would easily be taken care of.

I can't really comment on your situation because I don't know you or the area etc, but I would steer clear of the yuppie commune types unless it was a proper working entity, so many of these lovie dovie clans are not going to be able to work for themselves, some of these people have big money so can live outside the system but reley on it totally, they play away the hours, we are living ours to work for ourselves, what we make is of our own hand and for us to do what we want with.

If you have children of 12 years and above who are fit and strong they would be desireable by any budding community because they can work harder than older peoples, our group have talked about this scenario and have come up with that age as a limit any younger and they would be a burden to any up and coming community in time or hardship, this is why we are very saddened on the thought of really young couples with no money or skills.

You say your children are coming up GCSE, well all I could advise is, watch the climate and if things don't improve, try and get them to learn real skills which will benefit the family unit as a whole.

If things carry on deteriorating like they are your going to find more and more people looking into gather together, but be aware of shisters, they probably won't advertise the fact because they will be visible to others, so keep your ears to the ground for this kind of thing, anyone who has something genuine and physical to offer are more than likely genuine,

I like to think we have got things as right as possible, but there is still more that needs to be done, we have taken all of our eggs from the one basket and split them up so we at least have some form of fuel for heating and cooking.

Cookng is done via propane, 2 x 47kg bottles will last us 18 months for 90 quid this way we get better heat and cooking as LPG burns slightly hotter than town/natural gas, water heating for drinks is done on top of the wood stove and most of our timber comes from the river bank, there is always plenty to pick at after a flood, enough to keep dozen of families for the whole winter, which we collect through the summer nights when everyone is at home during dinner times.

If the mains gas goes off that's it, with bottles will last at least years worth of fuel for cooking.

Hot water comes from the wood stove boiler and you can also cook on it too
this gets rid of the service industrial supplies, this is what we are aiming for all my equipment that I make my shoes and musical instrument and leatherwork etc with is manual and its a real pleasure to work like this.

Like the couple in Austrailia who took themselves out of society way out in the bush, is one way but they were still reliant on those plane drops once a month, a like minded smaller tightly knit community is the safest and best place to be in times of trouble, it gives you valuable protection and peace of mind, you would not survive as a small family on your own, unless you had plenty of money and supplies ,weapons etc.

And on a closing not for now, if one has something worth fighting foe you should, tooth and nail period.

Thanks for that info.