Rite of Strict Observance

[kadosh]

The Rite of Strict Observance - http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/strict_observance.html - "Of the Strict Observance, Gould says, "For twenty years from its birth it either lay dormant, or made only infinitesimal progress; during the next twenty years it pervaded all continental Europe to the almost entire exclusion of every other system; within the next ten it had practically ceased to exist.... The whole system was based on the fiction that at the time of the destruction of the Templars a certain number of Knights took refuge in Scotland, and there preserved the existence of the Order."

Karl Gotthelf Hund (1722-1776)
http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/images/hund_k.jpg
Karl Gotthelf Hund, Baron von Hund und Alten-Grotkau founded the Rite of Strict Observance in 1751, and promoted the idea of a Knights Templar lineage for Freemasonry. At the age of twenty he was chamberlain to the Elector of Cologne, and subsequently chamberlain to the Elector of Saxony, a Councillor of State and an adviser to the Habsburg Emperor. - http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/hund_k/hund_k.html

[stevepenny]

The whole system was based on the fiction that at the time of the destruction of the Templars a certain number of Knights took refuge in Scotland, and there preserved the existence of the Order."

Do you believe this?

[kadosh]

No, it was fiction.

[boots]

No it's truth.


.

[stevepenny]

No, it was fiction.

And your proof is......

[kadosh]

See Gould, vol. v, p. 99. Also see pp. 100-113.

[stevepenny]

See Gould, vol. v, p. 99. Also see pp. 100-113.

I don't need Gould. In 1309 a Papal inquisition was held at Holyrood Palace in Edinburgh, with the express intention of supressing the Templars in Scotland. Only two Templars were present to defend the position of the order, Sir Walter de Clifton the Grand Preceptor of Scotland and William de Middleton. They later joined their compatriates in Bruce's army and were certainly present at the taking of Linlithgow from the English in 1310, and at Berwick Upon Tweed in 1318.

A Templar involvement at Bannockburn is probably a myth, at least in the way that it is reported; but Templars were present in Scotland before 1312, in 1312 and after 1312.

[kadosh]

Thanks. I am a member of the ROoS.

[boots]

1754: RITE OF PERFECTION (JESUITS’ CLERMONT COLLEGE, PARIS), SCOTTISH JUDGES (MARTINEZ AT MONTPELLIER) & STRICT OBSERVANCE RITE (BARON HUND, GERMANY) – JUST A COINCIDENCE!

1754: RITE OF PERFECTION (JESUITS’ CLERMONT COLLEGE, PARIS), SCOTTISH JUDGES (MARTINEZ AT MONTPELLIER) & STRICT OBSERVANCE RITE (BARON HUND, GERMANY) – JUST A COINCIDENCE!
http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/mackeys_encyclopedia/p.htm
(http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/mackeys_encyclopedia/p.htm)
PERFECTION, RITE OF
In 1754, the Chevalier de Bonneville established a Chapter of the advanced Degrees at Paris, in the College of Jesuits of Clermont, hence called the Chapter of Clermont. The system of Freemasonry he there practiced received the name of the Rite of Perfection, or Rite of Heredom. The College of Clermont was, says Rebold (History of Three Grand Lodges, page 46) the asylum of the adherents of the House of Stuart, and hence the Rite is to some extent tinctured with Stuart Freemasonry It consisted of twenty-five Degrees as follows:
1. Apprentice
2. Fellow Craft
3. Master
4. Secret Master
5. Perfect Master
6. Intimate Secretary
7. Intendant of the Building
8. Provost and Judge
9. Elect of Nine
10. Elect of Fifteen
11. Illustrious Elect, Chief of the Twelve Tribes
12. Grand Master Architect
13- Royal Arch
14. Grand, Elect, Ancient, Perfect Master
15. Knight of the Sword
16. Prince of Jerusalem
17. Knight of the East and West
18. Rose Croix Knight
19. Grand Pontiff
20. Grand Patriarch
21. Grand Master of the Key of Freemasonry
22. Prince of Libanus
23. Sovereign Prince Adept Chief of the Grand Consistory
24. Illustrious Knight Commander of the Black and White Eagle
25. Most Illustrious Sovereign Prince of Freemasonry, Grand Knight, Sublime Commander of the Royal Secret.
It will be seen that the Degrees of this Rite are the same as those of the Council of Emperors of the East and West, which was established four years later, and to which the Chapter of Clermont gave way. Of course, they are the same, so far as they go, as those of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite which succeeded the Council of Emperors. The distinguishing principle of this Rite is, that Freemasonry was derived from Templarism, and that consequently every Freemason was a Knight Templar. It was there that the Baron von Hund was initiated, and from it, through him, proceeded the Rite of Strict Observance; although he discarded the Degrees and retained only the Templar theory.

http://www.freemasonrytoday.net/14/p22b.php (http://www.freemasonrytoday.net/14/p22b.php)
In 1754, Martines de Pasqually, a man said to have travelled the east in search of wisdom (the Rosenkreuz archetype) set up an order called the Scottish Judges in Montpellier. Six years later, in Bordeaux, he established the Cabala-influenced Order of Elect Cohens, of which Order Pasqually was Grand Sovereign.
The Elect Cohens practised a form of ceremonial magic: a combination of the Catholic Mass with the works of Renaissance occultists such as Henry Cornelius Agrippa. Pasqually claimed to be in contact with unearthly beings.
He held an animist conception of the universe, a universe pulsating with life on many planes or in ulterior dimensions to those experienced by human beings ordinarily. His ceremonies were regulated by astrological considerations.
According to Pasqually, “The bodies of the universe are all vital organs of eternal life.” The Moon and the Sun figured prominently in his system. Equinoxes were chosen as propitious times for important rituals, to encourage good spirits.
Daily Invocation
There was a daily invocation wherein the Elect Cohen would trace a circle on the floor, at the centre of which was inscribed the letter ‘W’ below a candle. The Cohen then stood in the circle and, holding a light to read the invocation, would begin: “O Kadoz, O Kadoz, who will enable one to become as I was originally when a spark of divine creation? Who will enable me to return in virtue and eternal spiritual power?”
The purpose of the invocations and evocations was ultimately to open communication with what Pasqually described as the “Active and Intelligent Cause”.
In 1772, Pasqually sailed to Santo Domingo in the Caribbean, leaving the Assemblée in the hands of his followers Bacon and Jean-Baptiste Willermoz. Pasqually never returned, dying in Port-au-Prince in 1774.
Bacon then joined the Grand Orient, a mainstream French masonic order (founded in 1772), while Willermoz (1730-1824) not only joined the Strict Observance Rite (founded in 1754 by Baron Hund) but also founded several influential orders of his own: the high-degree masonic order of Chevaliers Bienfaisants de la Cité Sainte, also known as the Rite Écossais Rectifié and also the Chevaliers de l’Aîgle Noir et Rose-Croix, a rite containing strong alchemical and neo-Rosicrucian themes.
According to Jackson, it was possibly in the year 1765 that Willermoz completed a Rose-Croix ritual which apparently forms the basis of that practised today as the 18th degree of the Ancient & Accepted Rite. It would have been helpful if a copy of Willermoz’s ritual appeared in the book next to that currently practised (though there are international variations), but that would be too much to expect from a member of an order sworn to secrecy. And here lies one of the problems of the book. …

[boots]

The Congress of Wilhelmsbad
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mwIrvjgUWmc/SfqW-_rt0DI/AAAAAAAAB90/CfD8PE4KL8s/s1600-h/Wilhelmsbad-spa-1783.jpg.jpeg)
In 1782, a curious event occurred in the town of Wilhelmsbad, billed as a Congress of Masonry. Freemasonry had developed very differently on the European continent than it had in Britain and the Americas, and it had taken some strange and sinister turns, especially in the German states. Delegates came to the conference from Austria, France, Italy, Holland and Russia.

Between the Illuminati’s growing influence in Masonic lodges on the one side, and another German group called the Rite Of Strict Observance on the other, mainstream Freemasons were alarmed about the direction these new groups were taking them. Freemasonry had been developed to enhance society by taking good men and improving their character, making them better citizens. Masonic secrecy was simply a demonstration of honor among its members. But these new groups were something different, with a militant obsession over secrecy, and almost no interest in any of that character building malarkey. More than a few disgruntled Masons went home convinced they had to do something to stop this new movement.

[kadosh]

PERFECTION, RITE OF
[B]In 1754, the Chevalier de Bonneville established a Chapter of the advanced Degrees at Paris, in the College of Jesuits of Clermont, hence called the Chapter of Clermont. The system of Freemasonry he there practiced received the name of the Rite of Perfection, or Rite of Heredom. The College of Clermont was, says Rebold (History of Three Grand Lodges, page 46) the asylum of the adherents of the House of Stuart, and hence the Rite is to some extent tinctured with Stuart Freemasonry It consisted of twenty-five Degrees ....
By cutting and pasting without knowing the facts for yourself you are simply perpetuating the same bad scholarship of a hundred years ago. It’s been proven that the Jesuit Clermont novitiate had nothing to do with the Clermont Chapter of Freemasonry – they are two separate things, in both space and time and content. The masons even got it wrong (Mackey among them), and the mistake has been repeated ad infinitum ever since.

The natural confusion between the names of the Jesuit College of Clermont, and the short-lived Chapter of Clermont which was a Masonic body that controlled a few high degrees during its brief existence, only served to add fuel to the myth of Stuart Jacobite influence in Freemasonry’s high degrees. However, the College and the Chapter had nothing to do with each other. The Chapter was named “Clermont” in honor of the French Grand Master, the Duc de Clermont, and not because of any connection with the Jesuit College of Clermont.

For the origin of the Clermont Chapter, and proof that it had nothing whatever to do with Jesuit Clermont College, see René Le Forestier, Les Illuminés de Bavière et la Franc-Maçonnerie Allemande [Paris: 1914], Archè reprint, 2001, pp.144-6; and Henry W. Coil, Coil’s Masonic Encyclopedia (1961), p. 135. In particular, Le Forestier pinpoints the exact person, date, place, and context of the so-called Clermont Chapter, through archival studies. The conflation with the Jesuits came because of Jesuit-paranoiacs.

Some French prisoners were responsible for the creation of a Chapitre de Clermont at Berlin, July 19, 1760. Its French rituals were modified by Rosa. Johnson appeared in 1763 and introduced himself as the Great Prior of the Order of the Temple in Jerusalem, a Leone magno, arriving from Scotland. He entered into correspondence with von Hund and both met in May 1764 at Altenberg. Until the first days of the Convent, von Hund and the groups around him believed Johnson. Then he was considered a fraud, imprisoned and eventually died in goal.

[stevepenny]

Thanks. I am a member of the ROoS.

I knew you knew the real answer......

[stewart edwards]

Gee I hope that the two of you Steve and Kadosh dont keep arguing once/if the chair is refilled.

As a general point history is written by the victor and normally with the prejudices and mores of the time. You cant believe all that you read in history books regardles of the author. Even looking at ancient texts written about the same battles in Hieroglyphs and Cunniform can lead to different sides to the same story. Sometimes legends are the only way to transmit the truth over time.

Silly example. Society says aliens cant exist, even though at least tens of thousands of people say otherwise. Ancient legends say they do. Modern scholars mostly say they dont. But the Roman Catholic church has come round to accepting the liklihood and confirming that such views are acceptable (as reported in the current issue of Time magazine), which reflects how society is coming to accept the once unthinkable. Just be careful of trusting to much of what is in the history books.

Steve, next time you look at the chair ask yourself if it is glistening in the light.;)

[boots]

By cutting and pasting without knowing the facts for yourself you are simply perpetuating the same bad scholarship of a hundred years ago. It’s been proven that the Jesuit Clermont novitiate had nothing to do with the Clermont Chapter of Freemasonry – they are two separate things, in both space and time and content. The masons even got it wrong (Mackey among them), and the mistake has been repeated ad infinitum ever since.

But is it proven? This is only one of many bit's of info. Who's to say, they are NOT written by those who weren't biases?



The natural confusion between the names of the Jesuit College of Clermont, and the short-lived Chapter of Clermont which was a Masonic body that controlled a few high degrees during its brief existence, only served to add fuel to the myth of Stuart Jacobite influence in Freemasonry’s high degrees. However, the College and the Chapter had nothing to do with each other. The Chapter was named “Clermont” in honor of the French Grand Master, the Duc de Clermont, and not because of any connection with the Jesuit College of Clermont.

For the origin of the Clermont Chapter, and proof that it had nothing whatever to do with Jesuit Clermont College, see René Le Forestier, Les Illuminés de Bavière et la Franc-Maçonnerie Allemande [Paris: 1914], Archè reprint, 2001, pp.144-6; and Henry W. Coil, Coil’s Masonic Encyclopedia (1961), p. 135. In particular, Le Forestier pinpoints the exact person, date, place, and context of the so-called Clermont Chapter, through archival studies. The conflation with the Jesuits came because of Jesuit-paranoiacs.

Some French prisoners were responsible for the creation of a Chapitre de Clermont at Berlin, July 19, 1760. Its French rituals were modified by Rosa. Johnson appeared in 1763 and introduced himself as the Great Prior of the Order of the Temple in Jerusalem, a Leone magno, arriving from Scotland. He entered into correspondence with von Hund and both met in May 1764 at Altenberg. Until the first days of the Convent, von Hund and the groups around him believed Johnson. Then he was considered a fraud, imprisoned and eventually died in goal.

Daily Invocation
There was a daily invocation wherein the Elect Cohen would trace a circle on the floor, at the centre of which was inscribed the letter ‘W’ below a candle. The Cohen then stood in the circle and, holding a light to read the invocation, would begin: “O Kadoz, O Kadoz, who will enable one to become as I was originally when a spark of divine creation? Who will enable me to return in virtue and eternal spiritual power?”
The purpose of the invocations and evocations was ultimately to open communication with what Pasqually described as the “Active and Intelligent Cause”.

Sounds a lot like Kadosh.:eek:

The distinguishing principle of this Rite is, that Freemasonry was derived from Templarism, and that consequently every Freemason was a Knight Templar. It was there that the Baron von Hund was initiated,

Templars of today.

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/templars.jpg

[stevepenny]

Templars of today.

[/B]http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/templars.jpg

Interesting picture Boots; can you tell me where you found it please? Thanks

[stevepenny]

For reasons which I cannot go into I cannot post further to this forum and have asked the Mods to delete my account.

Thank you for all your posts during the short time I have been here.

Steve

[grandsecretary]

By cutting and pasting without knowing the facts for yourself you are simply perpetuating the same bad scholarship of a hundred years ago. It’s been proven that the Jesuit Clermont novitiate had nothing to do with the Clermont Chapter of Freemasonry – they are two separate things, in both space and time and content. The masons even got it wrong (Mackey among them), and the mistake has been repeated ad infinitum ever since.

The natural confusion between the names of the Jesuit College of Clermont, and the short-lived Chapter of Clermont which was a Masonic body that controlled a few high degrees during its brief existence, only served to add fuel to the myth of Stuart Jacobite influence in Freemasonry’s high degrees. However, the College and the Chapter had nothing to do with each other. The Chapter was named “Clermont” in honor of the French Grand Master, the Duc de Clermont, and not because of any connection with the Jesuit College of Clermont.

For the origin of the Clermont Chapter, and proof that it had nothing whatever to do with Jesuit Clermont College, see René Le Forestier, Les Illuminés de Bavière et la Franc-Maçonnerie Allemande [Paris: 1914], Archè reprint, 2001, pp.144-6; and Henry W. Coil, Coil’s Masonic Encyclopedia (1961), p. 135. In particular, Le Forestier pinpoints the exact person, date, place, and context of the so-called Clermont Chapter, through archival studies. The conflation with the Jesuits came because of Jesuit-paranoiacs.

Some French prisoners were responsible for the creation of a Chapitre de Clermont at Berlin, July 19, 1760. Its French rituals were modified by Rosa. Johnson appeared in 1763 and introduced himself as the Great Prior of the Order of the Temple in Jerusalem, a Leone magno, arriving from Scotland. He entered into correspondence with von Hund and both met in May 1764 at Altenberg. Until the first days of the Convent, von Hund and the groups around him believed Johnson. Then he was considered a fraud, imprisoned and eventually died in goal.

I agree with this. The "higher degrees" were, in fact, established by anti-Catholic, anti-Jacobite forces, and confusion has existed because of "the Claremont factor" mentioned above.

[offramp]

Can someone explain the link - if any - that joins the Rite of Strict Observance with The Martinists and the Chevaliers Bienfaisant de la Cité Sainte? I believe the last two may be the same; but is there a relationhsip to the first, the RSO, which I believe may be defunct?

[synarchy]

Can someone explain the link - if any - that joins the Rite of Strict Observance with The Martinists and the Chevaliers Bienfaisant de la Cité Sainte? I believe the last two may be the same; but is there a relationhsip to the first, the RSO, which I believe may be defunct?

Can explain some of the links to Martinism, but I do not know much about Chevaliers Bienfaisant de la Cité Sainte. I'll look into it...

Louis Claude de Saint-Martin and Willermoz were both pupils of Martinez de Pascally, and top initiates and practictioners within the Elus Cohens. When Pascally died they basicly shared the leadership of this organisation. After a while they broke up, because they did not agree on the best method to achieve "reintegration" with the Divine. Willermoz was more inclined to very elaborate rituals, while Saint-Martin advocated the "Inner Path" of meditation and contemplation as the most important. Saint-Martin had pupils who he gave a personal initiation, and empowered them to do the same with the people they trained. In the late 1800's Papus collected some of these people to form the first Martinist Order. Even though Saint-Martin focused mostly on the inner path of the heart, there are still some Theurgical ritual elements left in todays Martinist Orders, which probably come from the Elus Cohens of old. Martinist Orders of today operate with three Degrees, and a Fourth Degree for free Initiators, and provable succession back to Saint-Martin is very important.

[stewart edwards]

Synarchy, this may sound like an arrogant post but please bear with me for I could use you expanding a littleLouis Claude de Saint-Martin and Willermoz were both pupils of Martinez de Pascally, and top initiates and practictioners within the Elus Cohens. When Pascally died they basicly shared the leadership of this organisation. After a while they broke up, because they did not agree on the best method to achieve "reintegration" with the Divine.Just take this as read whether you believe it or not Synarchy, while I appear to have achieved this myself, and while some in the masonic world do appear to see this/even possibly knew that it would happen to me years before I did, a fair few vocal masons seem to think that I am no more to quote one of your brothers than a "piece of shit". This polarity of views towards me, is what has led to the questions that follow.

Willermoz was more inclined to very elaborate rituals, while Saint-Martin advocated the "Inner Path" of meditation and contemplation as the most important.As I have achieved what Ihave achieved through inner work (looking at all of my faults, bad decisions, fathoming out what caused them, my reactions, motivators behind motivators etc - then working out ways forwards so that I make better decisions in the future and then road testing them over a decade or so - this is how I walked myself out of teh darkness that I had inadvertently fallen into), what I worked out for myself would be closer to Saint Martins methology.

Saint-Martin had pupils who he gave a personal initiation, and empowered them to do the same with the people they trained. In the late 1800's Papus collected some of these people to form the first Martinist Order. Even though Saint-Martin focused mostly on the inner path of the heart,And this bit is key - the heart.

there are still some Theurgical ritual elements left in todays Martinist Orders, which probably come from the Elus Cohens of old. Martinist Orders of today operate with three Degrees, and a Fourth Degree for free Initiators, and provable succession back to Saint-Martin is very important.Now my question - given that I have achieved similar plodding along on my own, why is proving succession back to Saint Martin very important? I know that some masons disagree with me here, but in principal, if I can fathom out how to do it on my own, then anyone who is so motivated to do so can. After all, all that I did was decide to investigate the itch in my heart that there was more to life that I wasnt getting and to answer the meaning of life. I just dont "get" why there is a compulsive need to prove "succession/bloodline" in effect. I mean if an outsider like me can do it?

As an aside now knowing who you are, but if you know me from elsewhere you may know that one famous well travelled ugle internet freemason/martinist has directed me towards martinist orders, even though I frustrate him;):)

Note: clearly I have no real idea if what I have done is martinism or not, but as I know from direct personal experience you dont need a lodge of any description on this Earth for you to do these things, though I do accept that a good lodge would be of enormous benefit in giving you a leg up/being a shoulder/a guide etc. Just as a poor lodge couldno doubt inadvertently hinder you.

[synarchy]

Synarchy, this may sound like an arrogant post but please bear with me for I could use you expanding a littleJust take this as read whether you believe it or not Synarchy, while I appear to have achieved this myself, and while some in the masonic world do appear to see this/even possibly knew that it would happen to me years before I did, a fair few vocal masons seem to think that I am no more to quote one of your brothers than a "piece of shit". This polarity of views towards me, is what has led to the questions that follow.

As I have achieved what Ihave achieved through inner work (looking at all of my faults, bad decisions, fathoming out what caused them, my reactions, motivators behind motivators etc - then working out ways forwards so that I make better decisions in the future and then road testing them over a decade or so - this is how I walked myself out of teh darkness that I had inadvertently fallen into), what I worked out for myself would be closer to Saint Martins methology.

And this bit is key - the heart.

Now my question - given that I have achieved similar plodding along on my own, why is proving succession back to Saint Martin very important? I know that some masons disagree with me here, but in principal, if I can fathom out how to do it on my own, then anyone who is so motivated to do so can. After all, all that I did was decide to investigate the itch in my heart that there was more to life that I wasnt getting and to answer the meaning of life. I just dont "get" why there is a compulsive need to prove "succession/bloodline" in effect. I mean if an outsider like me can do it?

As an aside now knowing who you are, but if you know me from elsewhere you may know that one famous well travelled ugle internet freemason/martinist has directed me towards martinist orders, even though I frustrate him;):)

Note: clearly I have no real idea if what I have done is martinism or not, but as I know from direct personal experience you dont need a lodge of any description on this Earth for you to do these things, though I do accept that a good lodge would be of enormous benefit in giving you a leg up/being a shoulder/a guide etc. Just as a poor lodge couldno doubt inadvertently hinder you.

If what you have done is Martinism or not is hard to tell, since I do not know the details of your journey. Martinism provides people with powerful tools in the form of symbols, and how to use them, to achieve this goal, and from what I can make out of your post, you seem to have used at least one of them. However, there are as many Paths as there are people on this earth, and everyone strive towards the same goal. The point is not the path in itself, but rather how well it takes you to the goal. It is not necessary to belong to an Order or any esoteric groups to achieve a kind of unity with the Divine world, but for some it is helpful. I do recommend you to join a Martinist Order if you can. If it is not for you, you'll find out soon.

The reason why the Lineage is important in Martinism, is that it follows the principle of "apostolic succession." Traditionally it was part of a "growth system" empowering any Free Initiator to start a Lodge or a Martinist Order on their own, still drawing on the Order's basic legitimacy. Today in many Martinist Groups the Fourth Degree is withheld from most members to avoid unnecessary schisms and split ups. It is not a big problem, since this Degree does not really contain any important esoteric knowledge. Personally though, I think that everyone should probably get it, since Saint-Martins Initiation apparantly was ONE, that was later split up into four parts by Papus.

[stewart edwards]

Thank you Synarchy.

Note to all Martinists what follows is not me knocking martinism, I am simply trying to understand the need for lineage more clearlyThe reason why the Lineage is important in Martinism, is that it follows the principle of "apostolic succession." Traditionally it was part of a "growth system" empowering any Free Initiator to start a Lodge or a Martinist Order on their own, still drawing on the Order's basic legitimacy.Synarchy, surely anyone who has felt the light, who is able to feel all of creation, may also have initiatory authority? The ability to initiate must come from someone who is a craftsman otherwise, no matter - to use a well known Scots masonic phrase (probably incorrectly) that has been used on me before by chaps who made incorrect assumptions about me - "how old your mother is" is most likely ever to only ever initiate you into a social club, and not into yourself. Ideally the two would be married.

Today in many Martinist Groups the Fourth Degree is withheld from most members to avoid unnecessary schisms and split ups.Assuming that this is the degree which confers you the rite of initiation, then if it is being withheld, does this mean that it was given out too freely in the past to people who either were not ready or who did not have the subsequent support in dealing with issues like "power corrupts" or "rebalancing back in the material world" (to far spiritually can get you the answers you seek but it can also make you ineffective in everyday existance)?


It is not a big problem, since this Degree does not really contain any important esoteric knowledge. Personally though, I think that everyone should probably get it, since Saint-Martins Initiation apparantly was ONE, that was later split up into four parts by Papus.Bit of a guess but Saint-Martin probably only gave it to people who he knew were ready, and not simply to people who wanted to join an order? Times have changed a bit since those days though, for there are multitudes more old souls in our world today, (mind you there are also a multitude of more people full stop).

Given that progress in this field comes form inner work I just have trouble visualising preciely why a "lineage" is considered necessary. It is after all very easy to corrupt a lineage or simply to settle it into a deep comfort zone over a few generations to render it impotent, although I do appreciate that it could still carry the essence, but in such cases it would take someone who is more advanced than the current practitions to feel it. And then by definition the linage may have preserved the essence but it hasnt initiated it. I am not saying that this has happened in martinism for I do not know, but theoretically and looking at other esoteric societies it is worthy of thought.

It is academic to me in the sense that I have no intention of starting any lodge or order (and I certainly have had the opportunity to do so in the past and not from whom some masonic readers here may assume - you would need to go back a few more years) for that is not what I am about.

I would hazzard a guess, one that may make me look a fool, but I would guess that Saint Martin did not need a lodge's legitamacy to initiate. If I am a fool please tell me, us. I am happy to admit when I am wrong.

[kadosh]

Man: His true Nature and Ministry, by Louis Claude de St Martin is a good beginners book.

There are some misconceptions about Martinism, the Elu Cohen, and the Rectified Scottish Rite (which was developed from the Strict Observance and Elu Cohen). Each lineage is not the same as the other two. Martinism and the Rectified Scottish Rite do have a historic root in the teachings of Elu Cohen but they distinctly different from each other and the Elu Cohen.

The Hermetic Order of Martinists (HOM) is a Martinist Order that is only open to Master Masons of a Lodge under the authority of the United Grand Lodge of England, or of a Grand Lodge recognised by them, who are members of at least the First Grade (Zelator) of the Societas Rosicruciana In Anglia (SRIA). Thus, by definition, aspirants must be followers of the Trinitarian Christian Faith.

[synarchy]

Thank you Synarchy.

Note to all Martinists what follows is not me knocking martinism, I am simply trying to understand the need for lineage more clearlySynarchy, surely anyone who has felt the light, who is able to feel all of creation, may also have initiatory authority? The ability to initiate must come from someone who is a craftsman otherwise, no matter - to use a well known Scots masonic phrase (probably incorrectly) that has been used on me before by chaps who made incorrect assumptions about me - "how old your mother is" is most likely ever to only ever initiate you into a social club, and not into yourself. Ideally the two would be married.

I agree that many of the larger esoteric groups have in many cases developed in to not much more than social clubs. I think it is because they grow so much, and became so popular that people join them without any serios spiritual interest. However I do think that there are a lot to be found in them still, in rituals and symbols, for those who are willing to see.

When it comes to Martinists and succession, I think it is first and foremost a guarantee, that what is taught and done in an Order or a Lodge is really the ideas, symbols and workings of Louis-Claude de Saint-Martin, passed down to us by an unbroken chain of Free Initiators. Some would also say that it is an "empowerment," a reception into the Egregore of the Order, that makes you a part of it. At one point it is said something like "this ......... links you to your Initiator, as he himself is linketh to Light."

The bonds between an Initiator and an Initiate is strong in Martinism. Probably because it existed as a number of independent teachers/initiators without any connection to each other (exept for their lineage to Saint-Martin), for many years before it was organised into an Order.

I do think that many enlightened people will have a god-given authority to teach and initiate. But it would not be "Martinism" unless they follow the guidelines of Saint-Martin, and these guidelines are revealed through Martinist Initiation.


Assuming that this is the degree which confers you the rite of initiation, then if it is being withheld, does this mean that it was given out too freely in the past to people who either were not ready or who did not have the subsequent support in dealing with issues like "power corrupts" or "rebalancing back in the material world" (to far spiritually can get you the answers you seek but it can also make you ineffective in everyday existance)?

Well, people are people, and there will always be someone of all these categories in any body consisting of people. Often also, strong people want to do "what is best," but have different ideas about what "the best" is, and so they fall out with each other...:-)


Bit of a guess but Saint-Martin probably only gave it to people who he knew were ready, and not simply to people who wanted to join an order? Times have changed a bit since those days though, for there are multitudes more old souls in our world today, (mind you there are also a multitude of more people full stop).

At that time it was not an Order. Saint-Martin taught people and transferred the Initiation upon them. Then he sent them out in the world to teach and Initiate other people independant of each other. I am quite sure that he only did this to people he trusted, and whom he knew was ready.


Given that progress in this field comes form inner work I just have trouble visualising preciely why a "lineage" is considered necessary. It is after all very easy to corrupt a lineage or simply to settle it into a deep comfort zone over a few generations to render it impotent, although I do appreciate that it could still carry the essence, but in such cases it would take someone who is more advanced than the current practitions to feel it. And then by definition the linage may have preserved the essence but it hasnt initiated it. I am not saying that this has happened in martinism for I do not know, but theoretically and looking at other esoteric societies it is worthy of thought.


I cannot talk for all Martinist Initiators and Initiates everywhere, but for me, I do feel a connection to the Egregore of the Order, and I do feel a presence of "past masters" at meetings. I also feel a strong presence of the Divine.


It is academic to me in the sense that I have no intention of starting any lodge or order (and I certainly have had the opportunity to do so in the past and not from whom some masonic readers here may assume - you would need to go back a few more years) for that is not what I am about.

I would hazzard a guess, one that may make me look a fool, but I would guess that Saint Martin did not need a lodge's legitamacy to initiate. If I am a fool please tell me, us. I am happy to admit when I am wrong.

I can't say anything to or from. We know that Saint-Martin was an Elus Cohen. Apparently he has also been involved in other Traditions. Some of the elements in Martinism is related to this. Some of it even seems to relate to some traditions that are very ancient. Wether or not he felt that he needed the legitimacy of these, is very hard to tell.

[stewart edwards]

Once again Synarchy thank you, also to Kadosh.

Some have tried to direct me towards martinism at various stages over the past five years or so, but my heart simply does not draw me towards it at this time. Nothing negative, just no positive or even passive "pull". One of the greatest lessons that I have learnt in life is to learn to trust my heart. If I were to join I would simply be going in as someone who is only remotely curious, which would serve neither myself nor the martinist order. That said I am pleased to hear that you have managed to maintain strong connections and do wish you well. This aspect of "linage" I do "get", even if I do struggle more with the man made aspects.