Open minded?

[batou]

A lot of people seem to confuse being naive with being open minded. Or the idea that disagreeing with me is having a closed mind.

I see a lot of wild, unsubstantiated claims based on hear say. I see a lot of people gobble it up in this quest for knowledge. Filling your head with bullshit is poisoning people's thinking. It promotes this wishful thinking culture that gets nothing done and wastes your time.
To me, it seems a lot more open minded to ask for evidence of claims and present opposing evidence, rather than just accept that something is true because it is different.
It almost seems like an elitist mentality, on one hand. A competition to accept the most alternative theories. Use the most magic. Get the best results from orgonite. Be the fluffiest thinker. On the other it seems like the total opposite of being open minded because there is fair criticisms which are simply rejected.

open minded: ready to entertain new ideas; "an open-minded curiosity"; "open-minded impartiality"

Here's what I'm trying to get at..
There's a difference between probable and possible.
Let's take an example and use generalizations of a type of thread and posters:
Claim:
"I'm getting attacked by demons."

Possible:
1. Demons are attacking you.
2. Your mind is deluding you.
3. Lying.

Probable:
1. ~0%
2. 50%
3. 50%

Reasons
1. Demons are unfalsifiable.
2. Your mind is capable of many things, including tricking you. Chemical imbalance, stress, damage, disorders... many hundreds of reasons.
3. People like attention.

"open minded" people will instantly jump on the demon possibility and spout out a stream of folk tales and magic spells as fact.

Do you see what I'm saying? There's a very real probability you're getting strung along, or the poster needs genuine help. But that is abandoned in favor of the more outlandish possibility.

Here's a quote from Carl Sagan that sums everything up:

"It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite balance between two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny of all hypotheses that are served up to us and at the same time a great openness to new ideas . . . If you are only skeptical, then no new ideas make it through to you . . . On the other hand, if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense in you, then you cannot distinguish the useful ideas from the worthless ones."
—"The Burden of Skepticism," The Skeptical Inquirer, 1987

I see all this talk of wisdom, knowing things, being enlightened...
So if you read this thread, and you consider yourself open minded, awakened, enlightened etc.. ask yourself if you are honestly entertaining new ideas, or being misled and accepting them.
I know... you used a spell and it worked. You prayed and god answered. Orgonite makes you feel better. Silver cured your sniffles. Is it true? Post hoc ergo propter hoc? Placebo?
There's a great many people fooling themselves and fooling others on purpose or by accident.

This thread is all just an observation and thought. It's not about specific claims. It's not about you. It's about thinking clearly, critically, weighing evidence, looking at claims, looking deeper into things.
The world is a nasty place. A lot of people want money or fame. What better way to get it than catering to people so willing to accept anything and everything?
Like hunters and the hunted.
If it's too good to be true, its probably a trap. You're going to get poached. Gullible prey do not consider the consequences. Hey, there's some bait.. It's what I want, let's go eat.
Wise prey know they are prey, analyze the situation, weigh the options.
(I don't consider myself wise.. the word just fit best in that sentence.)

Hunting is easy. But surviving is easy too.


But hey, maybe there really is free bird seed.
http://kara.allthingsd.com/files/2008/06/roadrunner.gif

I don't even know where this is going now. I enjoy this site. I'm glad people are trusting. I'm glad people can find joy in things I might find ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is when people spend their time, and money, and put faith and hope into things, and think they're better because they assume they're open minded. It's not even on purpose for the most part. But that's when things get sour for me.
I love talking about aliens, and science and ghosts and philosophy and ESP. It's all in the realm of what if and how could this be.. But then there's UFO cults, and mediums, and courses on psionics.. People being paranoid over youtube videos of reptilians. This closed mindedness is going to fuck with your lives and your enjoyment of life and being free. You're free to believe in it. But believing in it takes your freedom. It makes you closed minded.

Spaced out is not tuned in.

[branjo]

Meep! Meep! as a kid I fucking hated that bird, always happy and got away with everything.

Good post though batou, I have had to catch myself on occasion from slipping into the gullibility if I am honest, its very easy to do. There is a fine line of balance and your right, the open minded person does ask for proof or at the very least a well informed opinion. But then there is that gut feeling too, but that can again be completely fooled also. Once we get to the outer fringes with any theory we seldom have the foresight to see where its going to end up.

I tend to think of it like in the case of water, water will go were ever the cracks are and when it can go no further it wells up until another path presents itself. Sooner or later it gets to were its going to end up.

Maybe your thread should be a sticky, we do need to be grounded now and again from the crazy electrical charge we pick up jumping from theory to theory.

[batou]

Hey, thanks branjo :)
I was worried people might react harshly.

[rollotomaz1]

They can seed the clouds

Seed our minds

Think tank us all to death

But when our bellies are empty we will most definately wake up in earnest.

There are those who know a few things
Those who think they know
And those who haven't got a bloody clue

All one can do is educate educate educate the masses to what really matters and that's to learn how we can work together for the whole, because humans are not very good at living on their own, and would not survive on their todd for long.

Our school teachers used to say to us, we want you children to be like us, my father used to say we do things differently to the norm, then you have a better chance at surviving.

And the single best way to survive is to learn new skills no matter how small you might think they may be, because an active mind is an observant mind and harder to control, do something that gives you food for the mid as well as the body.

Hearsay is no good, see hear and say is the best way, word of mouth after seeing is something that the power at large cannot control, seeing is believing that's why we are bloody hooked to the TV, if we distanced ourselves from this exposure we would change in a very short time indeed, I know we have.

[sensitivesoul]

I definately agree with you, I always enjoyed the expretion "It's always good to keep an open mind, but not to the point that your brain is falling out." lol Some people just need to sit back and think about it cause alot of people jump in with both feet without really seeing what is going on.

[unenlightened_waffle]

Interesting post and it is one I have considered before.

On the one hand you have got the people who are obsessed with subject study, like the biologists who can tell you every part of a plant, every individual chemical and can take it apart, but has little idea of why nor does it ask for an answer. However through this study they feel they can answer every question but sometimes have a severe lack of what I would call true understanding of the way things work. Like the Carl Sagans of this world. The basic 'if I cannot see it or analyse it, it does not exist'. (The scientist's view?) Cat 1

On the other you have the obsessive people who take to new fads and questionable material like aliens invading the planet or heaven and hell. These people tend to follow everything they come in to contact with, that takes their short attention span at the moment. A year later the fad will have been forgotten and a new one will have taken it's place. Cat 2

An open mind is something in my opinion that can understand any opinion and not discard it as rubbish. I think Cat 1 people have a disadvantage with this, although cat 2 would perhaps go to far the other way by believing it without thought and following it like the wind.

Either way I think most of the time it is people's ego's that are talking rather than their true self. Like you say attention, vanity etc...

Maybe it comes down to ignorance, if you are looking at a topic and dismissing any argument it shows ignorance, both cat 1 and 2 are guilty of that. Perhaps everyone is?

If I say to you now, smoking can be good for your health, you might be able to copy and paste thousands of pages of how other people think it is wrong, does not make it so. In a way it does not matter.

I always think of this way if people want to think they are possessed by a demon then what is the problem with that, even if they are craving attention, if you berate them then you are worse than they are. A little less criticism and lot more empathy is needed whether you believe it or not.

[passing]

Hi,
I like your post.

This is not quite the same thing as you describe, but it's related.
While flipping through this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Element-Encyclopedia-Secret-Societies-History/dp/0007220685) I was struck by the editor's description of 'The Machismo of Credulity' - people competing to believe the most outlandish things.

I'm not sure if I accept this, going on what I've seen around this forum. Has anyone noticed people actually being competitive over what they can believe, or is it just a lazy, unhelpful thing for the editor of that book to say?

If the OP prefers I'll move this to a new thread.
Cheers.

[batou]

Thanks guys for your replies. Very interesting.

And the single best way to survive is to learn new skills no matter how small you might think they may be, because an active mind is an observant mind and harder to control, do something that gives you food for the mid as well as the body.
That's true. You should learn something new every day. Learning by doing things.. experience, practice.. a lot of that is subconscious. Make an effort to feel and know and experience what you're doing. I think (guess & observation) a lot of people just coast through on autopilot with what they know. That's sad, because there's a lot to miss out on. Even if you are in a prison cell, you can still learn a lot. If you're on an assembly line or in a cubicle, checking microchips or punching numbers.. There's a lot to experience that you'll miss out on with autopilot.
I think that life is more magical and mysterious than we give it credit for. I don't need people telling me they're possessed to make it more mysterious. I don't need an imaginary friend to judge if I go to hell or not. Everything is so amazing. This whole existence is more fucked up and crazy than any acid trip you can take.
But yeah.. learn things. Learn how to use the knowledge too.

"It's always good to keep an open mind, but not to the point that your brain is falling out."

This is true, it's exactly what I was trying to say. People think the more open minded the better. But it eventually becomes detrimental to your ability to distinguish between fact and fiction. Some things are plainly impossible/false. Some things are unprovable. Some things are possible. Some things are simply true.
It's all kind of fuzzy and hard to navigate sometimes.
Let's take the youtube reptilian videos. Despite mountains of evidence that compression causes artifacts, they are still presented by people as proof. That's a lot of belief in something. That's not even open minded at this point. I can't understand how something proven false can be accepted as the total opposite. I entertain the idea that there may be reptilians. I do not accept youtube video artifacts as being the evidence.

Either way I think most of the time it is people's ego's that are talking rather than their true self. Like you say attention, vanity etc...

Maybe it comes down to ignorance, if you are looking at a topic and dismissing any argument it shows ignorance, both cat 1 and 2 are guilty of that. Perhaps everyone is?

I know I'm guilty of that. Everyone is ignorant.
Sometimes something is clear to me. I know why, and how it is true or false. Other times, something just sounds wrong. It doesn't fit in with the mechanics in my head. Got to figure out why. Sometimes I just don't have any clue or anything to grab onto. I guess what I'm trying to define is a feeling of doubt.
When presented with an extravagant claim:
If it doesn't seem true to me, I should check out the probabilities. I should look at other possibilities than the one presented. I should look at the evidence and how much weight it carries.
If it does seem true to me, I should check out the probabilities. I should look at other poss...
Doubt and belief are two sides of the same sword. Both sides will hurt you.

I always think of this way if people want to think they are possessed by a demon then what is the problem with that, even if they are craving attention, if you berate them then you are worse than they are. A little less criticism and lot more empathy is needed whether you believe it or not.

I just don't like to be lied to. If someone says they are possessed by demons, that means demons are real. This is earth shattering news to me. It proves the existence of other dimensions or an after life. It's a whole new sentient life force I've never experienced... Demons.. what about angels? Does this mean the bible is true? What about other religons? What do demons look like? Where do they live? Do they need to sleep and eat? How do they get into your head??

Do you see what I mean? A lie can be like a dam for more belief.
I shouldn't have people lie to me. It confuses so much more than just the lie. If they need attention that badly, then let's figure it out. Admit the lie and lets be friends. If they truly think they are possessed, let's get them some help and see if that works. Maybe it's not demons. Maybe it's something you can control.
But the moment we just blindly accept demons are in their head.. 5 days later the guy kills himself, or shoots a little girl. "Demons made me do it."
He is innocent, right? The devil made me do it is adequate defense.

[batou]

Hi,
I like your post.

This is not quite the same thing as you describe, but it's related.
While flipping through this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Element-Encyclopedia-Secret-Societies-History/dp/0007220685) I was struck by the editor's description of 'The Machismo of Credulity' - people competing to believe the most outlandish things.

I'm not sure if I accept this, going on what I've seen around this forum. Has anyone noticed people actually being competitive over what they can believe, or is it just a lazy, unhelpful thing for the editor of that book to say?

If the OP prefers I'll move this to a new thread.
Cheers.

Hey, thanks passing.
I'm not sure people are competitive, now I think about it.
It seems more like people want something incredible and amazing to have happened or be happening. The more outlandish, sometimes the better. Some people say in 2012, the world is going to end. That's pretty out-there thinking to me. I have a friend who thinks we're all going to turn into energy in 2012. Why does she think this? She read it... To me, it seems like she wants to believe something totally out of this world will happen.
So, I don't know if it's the machismo of daring to be different, or the fact your life is so dull you need to world to end to kick things into a higher gear.
Certainly, there are people who will have this 'machismo of credulity'. Ego driven attention whores who thrive on being the most alternative. There's probably some here on this site - example: I read a thread about a guy who claims to be reincarnated Jesus. Whether they actually truly believe, they want to believe, or just say they do is up for debate. But what is true, is that the attention they receive through this feeds something inside them.
Thanks passing, I think that is a very valid notion. It sums up a lot of things neatly, but I don't think it's true for every one.

[unenlightened_waffle]

I just don't like to be lied to. If someone says they are possessed by demons, that means demons are real. This is earth shattering news to me. It proves the existence of other dimensions or an after life. It's a whole new sentient life force I've never experienced... Demons.. what about angels? Does this mean the bible is true? What about other religons? What do demons look like? Where do they live? Do they need to sleep and eat? How do they get into your head??

Do you see what I mean? A lie can be like a dam for more belief.
I shouldn't have people lie to me. It confuses so much more than just the lie. If they need attention that badly, then let's figure it out. Admit the lie and lets be friends. If they truly think they are possessed, let's get them some help and see if that works. Maybe it's not demons. Maybe it's something you can control.
But the moment we just blindly accept demons are in their head.. 5 days later the guy kills himself, or shoots a little girl. "Demons made me do it."
He is innocent, right? The devil made me do it is adequate defense.

That is the real problem, if someone has lost the plot and kills someone and says demons made me do it or playing gta or whatever excuse, what can you do? My answer is nothing... how can you judge another person, when that fault is in everyone?

And again if say people join a suicide club because someone told them a lie.

People have to grow up and think for themselves and everyone will make mistakes, some worse than others - that is why we are here (imo). Everyone lies or avoids truth in some subjects, as for me I tend to do things by intuition as much as possible so if someone lies to me the problem is with them, if I believe it the problem is with me.

If that makes any sense, sorry I am not very coherent this morning.

On another note I think it is a very good topic to bring up and produced very well. :)

[batou]

Hey waffle, it makes sense.
You're right, nobody is perfect and people do make mistakes. Sometimes the most effective method for learning is the most painful. :p
This is what I mean about being open minded... It's important to allow for possibilities, but it is wrong to blindly accept them. We do have to think for ourselves. When people stop thinking is the problem, and assume they are being of open mind. It's hard to recognize a mistake when it has no impact. Then you cannot learn from it. If it has no impact, does it matter? I guess not, but it may effect things in a way you don't relate right now. So it is important. Everything is important. Everything you know is just as important. So when something crazy comes up requiring your belief, that is as important as knowing how to drive a car, or walk, or trigonometry. Because later on down the road in life it will affect you somehow. And that's when you learn or not, even if you don't recognize it.
Be careful with what you put in your head, because it can grow. Truth is like flowers, and lies are like weeds. You have to tend to flowers, care for them. Weeds take over, suffocate the flowers and require no care.
The wide open mind is abandoned, like an untended garden.
A critical mind takes care to ensure only flowers are sown. Weeds are identified and removed.
The closed mind is barren. The flowers withered because no sun could get in.

[unenlightened_waffle]

Hey waffle, it makes sense.
You're right, nobody is perfect and people do make mistakes. Sometimes the most effective method for learning is the most painful. :p
This is what I mean about being open minded... It's important to allow for possibilities, but it is wrong to blindly accept them. We do have to think for ourselves. When people stop thinking is the problem, and assume they are being of open mind. It's hard to recognize a mistake when it has no impact. Then you cannot learn from it. If it has no impact, does it matter? I guess not, but it may effect things in a way you don't relate right now. So it is important. Everything is important. Everything you know is just as important. So when something crazy comes up requiring your belief, that is as important as knowing how to drive a car, or walk, or trigonometry. Because later on down the road in life it will affect you somehow. And that's when you learn or not, even if you don't recognize it.
Be careful with what you put in your head, because it can grow. Truth is like flowers, and lies are like weeds. You have to tend to flowers, care for them. Weeds take over, suffocate the flowers and require no care.
The wide open mind is abandoned, like an untended garden.
A critical mind takes care to ensure only flowers are sown. Weeds are identified and removed.
The closed mind is barren. The flowers withered because no sun could get in.

Exactly what I believe! I actually did this the other day, I mean I have been doing it sub consciously all my life for good or bad but exactly in that analogy.

I write my philosophy in a little note pad and try to get over problems within me but the most recent one was one of my fears and rather than struggle over it like I have done in the past I said to myself 'I notice this problem with me that I need to face and I am planting it as a seed in my mind and I will over come it in time' and that was it and it seems to be working without the stress of worrying over it.

Every positive thought of improvement or love is a seed of life, every negative thought is a seed of death! Life is a gardening project.

Everything is a important as you say. If I learn how to do something today it could help me for the rest of my life, no matter how trivial.

[branjo]

Ah come on, don't be so down on weeds, they are strong and a lot of them have medicinal qualities that flowers do not have. We provide false environments to flowers, we basically force them to grow, but the robust little weeds raise a middle finger to the harsh reality of the environment and grow where they please. I find that we the human race are the weeds, no matter what they throw at us, we adapt and overcome.

Maybe this isn't relevant though...lol.

[pedsi]

Hi batou

Excellent thread,here's something that may interest you.:)

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91106

[batou]

Cheers Pedsi, that is pretty interesting. I just went to the website so I'll reply to your post about it later tonight :D

[azureangel]

You probably think I'm one of those people who is in the "believe anything" realm. I post a lot of short notes, all about being infinite beings living in a human condition, Love, Joy and Gratitude. I want to say a few things as a person who suspects you may be seeking that which is outside of the realm of the physically observable and measurable.
1) lifetime curiousity is the best quality you can have, besides love and acceptance.
2) have you looked into the works of the quantum physicists? One older, but highly recommended book, is The Holographic Universe, by Michael Talbot. I don't think so clearly in numbers, but apparently these physicists have discovered things that go beyond basic physics into realms which I see as spiritual.
3) I was brought up as a highly logical, follow the rules type of person. I did very well in school. However I always questioned things, even authority when it seemed to be obviously wrong. I observed that, once I stepped up and said something, many others would agree; they were just more conditioned than I and afraid to say anything. I never moved in cliques as there were rules and exclusions and cruelty toward others. I always felt more at home in nature and in the animal world. I still believe in structure, as long as it supports the whole, the consensus. I have noticed that many people look to some leader for guidance and their group for their opinions. I look inside and find my own. I have worked for many years in healing and life coaching. I learned as much from my clients as they have learned from me. But systems tend to gravitate toward money and power in general. Religions, laws, organizations; I believe they start with good intentions. An excellent example is labor unions. But eventually ego/power comes in and the original principles get lost. However, I can't say what all humans are like but I believe that the majority are good and caring people.
4) I resonate almost completely with DI's belief system. The most important part, to me, is the general change in people's energy which is imminent and I believe in fact is already happening. Whether there are beings in lizard bodies is a small part of the story and I couldn't care less, really. If you want to get a better idea of the concept of a human being more than just what we can see and quantify, please read Seth Speaks, by Jane Roberts. This came out in the 60's. Yes, it is "channeled" information. But presented in a way which you may begin to believe that we are more than we seem. This was my first eye-opener about who we really are. It resonated with me. I went on to attend a school for psychics. All I can say to you is, you KNOW when your intuition is right; the school allows you to do readings to get feedback and hone your craft. Later came my work with hundreds of people and their families, as a counselor mostly, and as a teacher of life skills classes. So I learned to bring my knowledge into the "real" world, and to become more and more compassionate as the years went on. My higher level skills remained in the closet. But I learned to put my brain and my ego on the side and allow my higher self, if you will, to speak through me. When that happened I was able to give people what they needed. It was a great practice. I have gone through periods in my life of forced inactivity due to health; I studied many things, including astrology, which also helps me to understand myself and people.
5) Science as you know it is a relatively new construct. If we confine our belief systems to this construct, we are robbing ourselves of an enormous amount of our potential. Yep, there are a lot of people who will go onto any bandwagon for excitement or attention. But don't you know that scientists are some of the worst in that category? Look at major "educational" institutions. If a scientist comes out with a new theory, he/she will want to defend that theory. There is a tremendous amount of ego involved in that whole group, and a lot of money behind the scenes. Research is many times set up to "prove" something, it is not true science.
Try this one out; what I focus on is what I become. If I focus on the negative qualities of the world, that is what I see. I then become depressed, maybe angry, and tend to think negatively. If I focus on the good things in life, then I open myself to more good things. A simple mental exercise which will give true spiritual results. With much love, angel

[batou]

Hey AA.
You probably think I'm one of those people who is in the "believe anything" realm. I post a lot of short notes, all about being infinite beings living in a human condition, Love, Joy and Gratitude. I want to say a few things as a person who suspects you may be seeking that which is outside of the realm of the physically observable and measurable.

But I like ya :D

1) lifetime curiousity is the best quality you can have, besides love and acceptance.
I agree 100%!

2) have you looked into the works of the quantum physicists? One older, but highly recommended book, is The Holographic Universe, by Michael Talbot. I don't think so clearly in numbers, but apparently these physicists have discovered things that go beyond basic physics into realms which I see as spiritual.
Yeah quantum physics certainly makes things confusing doesn't it? I haven't read that book but I'll try.

3) I was brought up as a highly logical, follow the rules type of person. I did very well in school. However I always questioned things, even authority when it seemed to be obviously wrong. I observed that, once I stepped up and said something, many others would agree; they were just more conditioned than I and afraid to say anything. I never moved in cliques as there were rules and exclusions and cruelty toward others. I always felt more at home in nature and in the animal world. I still believe in structure, as long as it supports the whole, the consensus. I have noticed that many people look to some leader for guidance and their group for their opinions. I look inside and find my own. I have worked for many years in healing and life coaching. I learned as much from my clients as they have learned from me. But systems tend to gravitate toward money and power in general. Religions, laws, organizations; I believe they start with good intentions. An excellent example is labor unions. But eventually ego/power comes in and the original principles get lost. However, I can't say what all humans are like but I believe that the majority are good and caring people.
I think that's one of the problems: people don't think for themself.. they just want to agree, or someone to tell them what to think. It's this whole sheep/people mentality idea again. But it's not just 'unawakened sheep'.. it's everywhere, follow the leader. Someone posts something with confusing misused terms and embellishes the story, tells us all we're doomed in 2012. And people believe it, they say oh I have a feeling too.. But if you ask.. How in the fuck do you know your information is true? There's no real answer. It's just fed to you by people exploiting trust or misled themselves.[/QUOTE]


4) I resonate almost completely with DI's belief system. The most important part, to me, is the general change in people's energy which is imminent and I believe in fact is already happening. Whether there are beings in lizard bodies is a small part of the story and I couldn't care less, really. If you want to get a better idea of the concept of a human being more than just what we can see and quantify, please read Seth Speaks, by Jane Roberts. This came out in the 60's. Yes, it is "channeled" information. But presented in a way which you may begin to believe that we are more than we seem. This was my first eye-opener about who we really are. It resonated with me. I went on to attend a school for psychics. All I can say to you is, you KNOW when your intuition is right; the school allows you to do readings to get feedback and hone your craft. Later came my work with hundreds of people and their families, as a counselor mostly, and as a teacher of life skills classes. So I learned to bring my knowledge into the "real" world, and to become more and more compassionate as the years went on. My higher level skills remained in the closet. But I learned to put my brain and my ego on the side and allow my higher self, if you will, to speak through me. When that happened I was able to give people what they needed. It was a great practice. I have gone through periods in my life of forced inactivity due to health; I studied many things, including astrology, which also helps me to understand myself and people.
Maybe there is a change coming, but I don't think its because of some kind of universal force. I can see where you're coming from. I hope things change too, but if someone tells me there's going to be gloom and doom and all that crap, I just get so tired of it now.. you have to ask why? Why is that any different than a preacher on TV slapping his bible and saying Jesus is coming back? Obviously he's not. If he does, it's not because some fat sweaty guy yelled it on tv. Any prediction smells fishy to me. I just don't see how its anything other than a guess.


5) Science as you know it is a relatively new construct. If we confine our belief systems to this construct, we are robbing ourselves of an enormous amount of our potential. Yep, there are a lot of people who will go onto any bandwagon for excitement or attention. But don't you know that scientists are some of the worst in that category? Look at major "educational" institutions. If a scientist comes out with a new theory, he/she will want to defend that theory. There is a tremendous amount of ego involved in that whole group, and a lot of money behind the scenes. Research is many times set up to "prove" something, it is not true science.
Try this one out; what I focus on is what I become. If I focus on the negative qualities of the world, that is what I see. I then become depressed, maybe angry, and tend to think negatively. If I focus on the good things in life, then I open myself to more good things. A simple mental exercise which will give true spiritual results. With much love, angel
I agree with you about science. A lot of research exaggerate results or force the conclusion to fit the theory. It was mentioned in this magazine I get:

"Most published research findings are false," John Ioannidis, a Greek epidemiologist, proclaimed in 2005 in the respected online journal Public Library of Science. Ioanaddis examined peer reviewed papers in medicine and other fields and determined that just over half of them were shown by subsequent research to be either completely wrong or exaggerated. In a follow up paper last fall, Ioannidis and two colleagues blamed scientists' lousy track record in part on what economists call 'the winners curse.' The phenomenon occurs when bidders in an auction drive up the price of a commodity past its true value. The auctions winner ends up being a loser. In the same way, scientific journals, which compete with each other to publish the most dramatic papers, often overestimate their value- or truth.
(BBC Knowledge pg 98 sep/oct 2009)

Here's the 'but'..
A lot of that is research/cutting edge science. Much of what we know currently and can apply to our lives isn't research science, it's withstood scrutiny and testing and time. Those false/exaggerated claims are uncovered and exposed.
It can't explain everything. It's a great tool to use, along with logic and critical thinking. Questioning: why, what, where, how? There's an explanation for everything. When something happens.. It has a cause. We have to rule out every possibility, starting with what is most probable, and working on through.
"Once you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes
I don't want to prove everything wrong, or rain on people's fun. I don't have any answers to big questions. I just want truth. Not being misled.

[azureangel]

Thanks for your well-written reply. I appreciate your mind and your writing. I must apologise for the suggestion about positive thinking, when I returned to the thread I read from the top of the page (I always do that to get back into the flow) and saw that you had written that very idea.

Yeah, I know it's discouraging. I could tell you stories of the ways I've started in the right directions, i.e. college degrees, etc., only to get literally pushed out of them. I finally gave up, even on work in my field here on this island. I've watched the caliber of social services drop precipitously prior to the economic downturn. I can't work in any of the agencies any more and maintain my integrity. Everyone follows the lazy attitude of the others. This after seeing the social services of this island run in a top-notch way in the
90's. I guess I'm sharing this with you to let you know that there is hope in spite of numerous life "slams". During this period as I mentioned I continued to hone my behavior, my spirituality, my compassion. Many years ago I was a warrior type, and didn't hold back my anger if I thought a structure or client was threatened. I watched and agonized as I saw agencies go downhill.
Finally I gave up and learned that things will go as they will, in spite of your best intentions and hard work. Now, the other side of that is, I also learned that I was taking on too much responsibility. Fast forward several years, I still worked that lesson as I returned to a crippled system and still maintained compassion and did the best I could. I knew it was over for me but I was afraid to quit my job. So I "created" my own firing: for no reason. Now I'm on unemployment. Living on an island with my pets around me is actual paradise, but I could get into a lot of fear about what's next. Instead I'm doing this inner education and growth.

I shared my spiritual experience with you, rather than a lot of quotes and stuff in the hope that you might understand that I learned these things through hands-on experience. By the way, in my psychic school we didn't do predictions, as at the best a prediction can only be a probability. Of course I could be anybody. But I dont' have false modesty and I'll tell you that I'm one of the straightest shooters you will ever find. I feel your discouragement; I still get it too. I was thinking today,
(feeling sick w/migraine, recovering from a weekend of being on another island, watching a dear friend get her master's degree and spending time with a lot of people, which is draining for me), "Shit, I need a mentor to go through this crap". (I was picking up horse manure in the pasture; pun intended). Then I said, "No, if I needed one they would have shown up by now. You're doing just fine".
Another piece of my story which might help is, I was trained from childhood to follow my mind. Circumstances showed me to learn to follow my intuition, which is my heart and my mind together. This intuition lights up when I listen to Almine, George Kavassilas, Alex Collier or David Icke or many others who tell us that we are finally going to get our abilities back. The tricky part is the between time and the other people and their reactions. But it's not my job to worry about that; I've put out energy in my group about growing food and getting another group together to talk about the world changes. So far the reaction has been mixed. Again, I'm glad I'm on an island and not near a major metro area. (OK, to be honest I see myself in a guide role when things get tricky for awhile). But I really do believe that we create our own reality. We can always fall back on DI; it's either fear or love. And I'd rather stay in love. Hey, if you're young enough you may have a family on the New Earth!!! Do something for yourself every day and know that you are loved. I hug you in my imagination,
Lots of love, angel :p

[1964]

In response to the OP .....

My view is even more extreme than yours, in speaking of the dangers of an open mind. Rape is an unwanted, unwelcome, forced attack on a person in the most physically intimate way possible. Well, people's hearts, minds, and their souls are being raped every day in this world - and people either don't realize it, or they don't know how to stop it. Whether it's through the media, or by walking through the local mall, people's thoughts are continuously being intruded upon, and their emotions continuously violated. These are very effective means of hi-jacking the soul.

I'm aware of the strong stand that many people have against Christ, while they try to figure out how to defend themselves against the onslaught of the coming new world order. But it's God Who warns that we must guard our eyes and ears while in this world, which God also calls "gates".

If someone were being physically raped, the natural thing to do would be to try to escape the rapist. They certainly wouldn't return to the rapist once they got away. But yet when it's their minds that are being raped, people respond by opening their minds even further.

As a result, we're finally at a point where there's nothing that people *won't* believe.

[batou]

Thanks for your well-written reply. I appreciate your mind and your writing. I must apologise for the suggestion about positive thinking, when I returned to the thread I read from the top of the page (I always do that to get back into the flow) and saw that you had written that very idea.

Yeah, I know it's discouraging. I could tell you stories of the ways I've started in the right directions, i.e. college degrees, etc., only to get literally pushed out of them. I finally gave up, even on work in my field here on this island. I've watched the caliber of social services drop precipitously prior to the economic downturn. I can't work in any of the agencies any more and maintain my integrity. Everyone follows the lazy attitude of the others. This after seeing the social services of this island run in a top-notch way in the
90's. I guess I'm sharing this with you to let you know that there is hope in spite of numerous life "slams". During this period as I mentioned I continued to hone my behavior, my spirituality, my compassion. Many years ago I was a warrior type, and didn't hold back my anger if I thought a structure or client was threatened. I watched and agonized as I saw agencies go downhill.
Finally I gave up and learned that things will go as they will, in spite of your best intentions and hard work. Now, the other side of that is, I also learned that I was taking on too much responsibility. Fast forward several years, I still worked that lesson as I returned to a crippled system and still maintained compassion and did the best I could. I knew it was over for me but I was afraid to quit my job. So I "created" my own firing: for no reason. Now I'm on unemployment. Living on an island with my pets around me is actual paradise, but I could get into a lot of fear about what's next. Instead I'm doing this inner education and growth.

I shared my spiritual experience with you, rather than a lot of quotes and stuff in the hope that you might understand that I learned these things through hands-on experience. By the way, in my psychic school we didn't do predictions, as at the best a prediction can only be a probability. Of course I could be anybody. But I dont' have false modesty and I'll tell you that I'm one of the straightest shooters you will ever find. I feel your discouragement; I still get it too. I was thinking today,
(feeling sick w/migraine, recovering from a weekend of being on another island, watching a dear friend get her master's degree and spending time with a lot of people, which is draining for me), "Shit, I need a mentor to go through this crap". (I was picking up horse manure in the pasture; pun intended). Then I said, "No, if I needed one they would have shown up by now. You're doing just fine".
Another piece of my story which might help is, I was trained from childhood to follow my mind. Circumstances showed me to learn to follow my intuition, which is my heart and my mind together. This intuition lights up when I listen to Almine, George Kavassilas, Alex Collier or David Icke or many others who tell us that we are finally going to get our abilities back. The tricky part is the between time and the other people and their reactions. But it's not my job to worry about that; I've put out energy in my group about growing food and getting another group together to talk about the world changes. So far the reaction has been mixed. Again, I'm glad I'm on an island and not near a major metro area. (OK, to be honest I see myself in a guide role when things get tricky for awhile). But I really do believe that we create our own reality. We can always fall back on DI; it's either fear or love. And I'd rather stay in love. Hey, if you're young enough you may have a family on the New Earth!!! Do something for yourself every day and know that you are loved. I hug you in my imagination,
Lots of love, angel :p
Thanks Angel
I agree with creating your own reality. I don't think external reality, but certainly internal. With a positive mind, the world can throw you a curve ball and you'll see beauty in the aerodynamics. With a negative mind, you'll curse about it and reinforce the negativity.
I've thought about life and death and existence more than ever recently. I think it's due to this website and getting more mature. I used to just coast through easy and free but maybe that's just the innocence of youth. In fact I've even started forming my own philosophy about life. That's really new to me to even do that. The story pedsi posted is actually really meaningful, the more I think about it. Stages of life, giving and taking.
There's more to life and living it, and I can't fault people for searching and exploring. I love the unknown and mysteries and conspiracies. It's a thrill to me, like a hunt. Maybe all these ways and beliefs people have are trails and tracks and clues. Maybe it's all a wild goose chase. We're all searching for this truth and looking outside and inside for this elusive truth, but its a combination of everything. It's so simple we're overlooking it, because it just exists. We're too stupid to get the essence of this truth, and the best way to do it is with what we know - stories, images, figures, events. Human's find patterns in things. We make these patterns because we can't express the truth we found any other way. The stories are the trail to follow. We can't give experience to someone.. You have to get it yourself by following the trail. eg. If I tell you apples are sweet and juicy... you have an idea, but you don't know what apples taste like until you eat one yourself. And I think people just want a meaning to their life. To be bigger than this sack of meat. But really what people want is to be happy and content and satisfied. But also I think people consider themselves as individual and distinct far too much, and put far too much weight on their own importance and influence. I'll tell you a secret that makes me happy: I'm not important. Do you know how great that makes me feel? Whatever I do and say will not echo through the cosmos. Alexander the great, Hitler, War, peace, famine, gold... It's only important because people say it was. There are countless suns and planets and galaxies. So enormous we can't even comprehend the size. It's so huge and flowing and interacting, yet we think that something we say and do is important and it has absolutely no effect on anything else in the universe. We could destroy the Earth and the sun, and it would have no importance outside of our own little minds. And even then, it would only be the significance we gave to it. I'm not saying the universe is just a vast uncaring place and we don't matter. We're a part of it, from the rain outside to a supernova a billion light years away.
That's just my view. The feeling is unfalsifiable, but it's a fact that we are part of it.
Why I am telling you this... to try and show where I'm coming from. I have a feeling of unity and oneness. I see why people tell these stories, to try and give the experience they feel. But then a lot of it is doom and gloom, bad things going to happen.
So like you say it's either fear or love. The only thing I really fear is spiders. Go ahead and laugh. I don't hate them, I'm scared of them, so I don't think it's a genuine 'FEAR'. I just don't want to handle them so I'm going to say, I don't FEAR anything. Spiders are just icky. (In the same way that I don't like cauliflower either :p) Spiders are beautiful and amazing and I wouldn't want them to not exist.
Ok, fear and love... there's so much fear around. People preying off fear. Through these stories of doom. Through these incredible events. It's all driven by fear and getting people to believe you. People are so fearful, they just say OK sounds good to me! I better believe, because either something bad will happen if I don't, or believing reaffirms my fears and I now have some control.
If people would just see the amazing beauty in everything.. see that there is no good or bad, things just happen and its either to or not to our liking. Stop putting so much emphasis on being in control and being important.. just accept it all, everything, the whole universe not as being part of us, but us being part of it. Love the rain that cancels your kids game, love the galaxy being swallowed by a black hole, love the ocean and the tide and the birds and the sunrise and food and sex and be happy. This is the way it is. No good. No bad. Reality is what you make it. By my own logic... I shouldn't care right? I guess that I don't. This is just how it is. I can still try to stop people experiencing fear though. I think this is what the thread is trying to be about.. open minded and if you believe something because you fear the consequences.. Fear can be easily dismantled and rejected. It's just also so easy to accept fear. It makes us survivors.
I always manage to ramble to you AA. Sorry to pick you out for my rambling buddy. :)
In response to the OP .....

My view is even more extreme than yours, in speaking of the dangers of an open mind. Rape is an unwanted, unwelcome, forced attack on a person in the most physically intimate way possible. Well, people's hearts, minds, and their souls are being raped every day in this world - and people either don't realize it, or they don't know how to stop it. Whether it's through the media, or by walking through the local mall, people's thoughts are continuously being intruded upon, and their emotions continuously violated. These are very effective means of hi-jacking the soul.

I'm aware of the strong stand that many people have against Christ, while they try to figure out how to defend themselves against the onslaught of the coming new world order. But it's God Who warns that we must guard our eyes and ears while in this world, which God also calls "gates".

If someone were being physically raped, the natural thing to do would be to try to escape the rapist. They certainly wouldn't return to the rapist once they got away. But yet when it's their minds that are being raped, people respond by opening their minds even further.

As a result, we're finally at a point where there's nothing that people *won't* believe.

I see where you're coming from, but I think rape is a pretty strong word for it. Honestly, if I were getting raped, I would strangle and cut that bastard and he wouldn't rape again. :D
Media and advertising is certainly pushed on us because it surrounds us, so it has an effect. But it's easy to reject all of that by being aware of things. I don't think there's anything that is forced on us, it's all taken. That's why it's so effective. People choose to believe things. (Adults anyway) "These new shoes make you look good" -> People will respect me -> these shoes will make me important -> Girls will be impressed by my sense of style -> Girls will want to fuck me since I'm so awesome -> People will respect me.
It's kind of all materialism and circular logic: These shoes are awesome because they are awesome.
I don't think it's rape. It's kind of just giving up, and offering yourself, then claiming rape. At the worst, (I kind of hate the rape analogy) it's date rape of being drugged and not having the option of resisting.
People don't know they can resist it, or don't bother to. It's much more satisfying to buy into the whole culture and be a part of the problem.
What I'm talking about mainly though is the open mind and willingness to believe things based on your fears and wants and needs. I see it more as a tool to cope with life. And life is so much more than being afraid of everything and anything. You can deconstruct events and occurrences. Your mind has to be this obliterating force that destroys everything you see and hear and examines each particle and why it was in that configuration. There is nothing that cannot be understood. There is nothing that has to be blindly accepted. If you cannot be given valid reasons, then there is something amiss.

[azureangel]

Another lyrical post; you are a natural writer batou...It is an honor to share your thoughts as you come to maturity in this world. Your generations have had a difficult time of it, less rites of passage, more commercialism.

"In fact I've even started forming my own philosophy about life. That's really new to me to even do that. The story pedsi posted is actually really meaningful, the more I think about it. Stages of life, giving and taking.
There's more to life and living it, and I can't fault people for searching and exploring. I love the unknown and mysteries and conspiracies. It's a thrill to me, like a hunt. Maybe all these ways and beliefs people have are trails and tracks and clues. Maybe it's all a wild goose chase. We're all searching for this truth and looking outside and inside for this elusive truth, but its a combination of everything. It's so simple we're overlooking it, because it just exists. We're too stupid to get the essence of this truth, and the best way to do it is with what we know - stories, images, figures, events. Human's find patterns in things. We make these patterns because we can't express the truth we found any other way. The stories are the trail to follow. We can't give experience to someone.. You have to get it yourself by following the trail."
No my dear, never call yourself stupid. We just weren't given the keys as children, as we would have in an indigenous culture. You've got the answer, bolded in your quote above! Yes, I identify, that's why I shared some of my history and of course I can't "give" your "aha" to you; you will and are, finding it yourself. I started at age 13 with a rapture in a Jesus group (there's one for you 1964; I do believe in the Christ being and his teachings. By the way, Mary was his partner and number 1 disciple, but they wrote her out of the story :mad:;)), I then went on, to The Handbook for Higher Consciousness, hallucinogens, Vipassana Buddhism, studies of Tibetan Buddhism, lots of cannabis use :(, Hare Krsna, Seth material, psychic school, astrology, and forced incarceration in my own body, alone with my own mind. A bout with alcoholism was in there and I worked the 12-step program, which is a great basic spiritual set of guidelines to cleanse the past and set boundaries for the self. During my searches, I too was on the hunt and got angry at people blocking the way sometimes. In those days we went to the library and bookstore; I suppose I'd be completely overwhelmed by the amount of information with which you are faced.
Here's one key, and I can tell you that everything I've studied supports this: we are each a hologram of the entire universe. The Creator is in us but we are also a hologram of the Creator. Yes, you're right; my thoughts, and especially feelings, do create my reality. It's a lot of responsibility once you accept this. Our thoughts are things. Gangsta rap, heavy death metal music, violent games and films, all encourage the creation of similar occurences, possibly in other worlds. Besides which, the more in touch with ourselves we become, the less we resonate with these things.
..yes, I can identify with being fine with being nobody. Because I do believe that I am nobody and everybody at the same time. My belief system actually says, and it seems true in my life, that we are in the process of being separated from the folks who are focused on the 5-sense reality to exclusion of any other possibilities. From childhood, I was always aware of a group mentality and I just didn't go along. Now, we may just be here in meat suits. Some part of my brain might just want to believe that my life is different than someone who fits in with the general crowd and does what most people in their group do.

But, no. Can I tell you some of the things that make me feel euphoric? That moment of the sunset, the rain that falls for 5 minutes and then the sun comes out, when my horse rubs me with his nose, when I really connect with someone of like mind, watching someone get an answer they've been looking for, watching children be fascinated by sand running through their fingers...I can feel when people are alive and I can often feel when they are shut down. I refuse to shut down.

"If people would just see the amazing beauty in everything.. see that there is no good or bad, things just happen and its either to or not to our liking. Stop putting so much emphasis on being in control and being important.. just accept it all, everything, the whole universe not as being part of us, but us being part of it. Love the rain that cancels your kids game, love the galaxy being swallowed by a black hole, love the ocean and the tide and the birds and the sunrise and food and sex and be happy. This is the way it is. No good. No bad. Reality is what you make it. By my own logic... I shouldn't care right? I guess that I don't. This is just how it is. I can still try to stop people experiencing fear though. I think this is what the thread is trying to be about.. open minded and if you believe something because you fear the consequences.. Fear can be easily dismantled and rejected. It's just also so easy to accept fear. It makes us survivors."
Yes, the world is a wonderful place.

Here's a theory for you: I think that, because people's original selves are repressed or "hacked into" per DI (and me), they still seek sensation, they still try to find the true totality of what they are. So we see a lot of extreme sports, worship of and identification with actors, sports stars, etc. And many people go around acting like they are much more important than they are because it's all backwards. We are all beautiful stars, but in a sky in which we all shine together. And you poor men, are expected to put on a big show of "all that" to impress women. Meanwhile we women are painting and waxing and botoxing and pretending to be less than we are...Or so the media would have us believe. A lot of the problem is based on money and the pursuit of it. Take a look at that document on the reptilian forum called Terra Papers. If you believe that, we've been created and basically controlled from day 1. But some of us have the DNA of the creators...Imagine when we won't have to worry about where we will live and where we will get food? We can have a lot more fun then! :p In the meantime, we have the concepts of the higher life and mental/emotional ideals. We won't always be living them, though. I believe that part of growth is making mistakes and apparently feeling like I've been bludgeoned by a baseball bat sometimes. Still. We have the connection to the tremendous beauty you and I refer to. Congratulations, you are continuing to delight me, and I'm sure others, with your growth and insight.
Love, angel

[batou]

Another lyrical post; you are a natural writer batou...It is an honor to share your thoughts as you come to maturity in this world. Your generations have had a difficult time of it, less rites of passage, more commercialism.
Thanks Angel, its helping me to figure stuff out. I appreciate your responses, and also everyone elses. There's really no one to talk to about this kind of things and I'm not much of a speaker anyway.


No my dear, never call yourself stupid. We just weren't given the keys as children, as we would have in an indigenous culture. You've got the answer, bolded in your quote above! Yes, I identify, that's why I shared some of my history and of course I can't "give" your "aha" to you; you will and are, finding it yourself. I started at age 13 with a rapture in a Jesus group (there's one for you 1964; I do believe in the Christ being and his teachings. By the way, Mary was his partner and number 1 disciple, but they wrote her out of the story :mad:;)), I then went on, to The Handbook for Higher Consciousness, hallucinogens, Vipassana Buddhism, studies of Tibetan Buddhism, lots of cannabis use :(, Hare Krsna, Seth material, psychic school, astrology, and forced incarceration in my own body, alone with my own mind. A bout with alcoholism was in there and I worked the 12-step program, which is a great basic spiritual set of guidelines to cleanse the past and set boundaries for the self. During my searches, I too was on the hunt and got angry at people blocking the way sometimes. In those days we went to the library and bookstore; I suppose I'd be completely overwhelmed by the amount of information with which you are faced.
Wow, you've had quite a journey there. Really swimming in a big sea. I think the amount of information can be a problem too. At least in a bookstore, only authors put information in books. That means they know their stuff (or at least researching it). Now with the internet everyone has a voice. It's hard to tell who to listen to. Who is just making crap up and who has information that is important? So many trees its hard to see the forest. You're right about it being overwhelming.

Here's one key, and I can tell you that everything I've studied supports this: we are each a hologram of the entire universe. The Creator is in us but we are also a hologram of the Creator. Yes, you're right; my thoughts, and especially feelings, do create my reality. It's a lot of responsibility once you accept this. Our thoughts are things. Gangsta rap, heavy death metal music, violent games and films, all encourage the creation of similar occurences, possibly in other worlds. Besides which, the more in touch with ourselves we become, the less we resonate with these things.
Holograms are pretty neat. Do you mean in the way you can cut up a hologram and it has the same picture as the original, except with a creator being dividing up into trillions of pieces, with the same information?


..yes, I can identify with being fine with being nobody. Because I do believe that I am nobody and everybody at the same time. My belief system actually says, and it seems true in my life, that we are in the process of being separated from the folks who are focused on the 5-sense reality to exclusion of any other possibilities. From childhood, I was always aware of a group mentality and I just didn't go along. Now, we may just be here in meat suits. Some part of my brain might just want to believe that my life is different than someone who fits in with the general crowd and does what most people in their group do.
I can see why you believe that - it would be nice to ditch the people that drag you down. I hate to miss the party but I don't think I'm invited.


But, no. Can I tell you some of the things that make me feel euphoric? That moment of the sunset, the rain that falls for 5 minutes and then the sun comes out, when my horse rubs me with his nose, when I really connect with someone of like mind, watching someone get an answer they've been looking for, watching children be fascinated by sand running through their fingers...I can feel when people are alive and I can often feel when they are shut down. I refuse to shut down.

Reminds me of the shawshank redemption quote "Get busy living or get busy dying."


Here's a theory for you: I think that, because people's original selves are repressed or "hacked into" per DI (and me), they still seek sensation, they still try to find the true totality of what they are. So we see a lot of extreme sports, worship of and identification with actors, sports stars, etc. And many people go around acting like they are much more important than they are because it's all backwards. We are all beautiful stars, but in a sky in which we all shine together. And you poor men, are expected to put on a big show of "all that" to impress women. Meanwhile we women are painting and waxing and botoxing and pretending to be less than we are...Or so the media would have us believe. A lot of the problem is based on money and the pursuit of it. Take a look at that document on the reptilian forum called Terra Papers. If you believe that, we've been created and basically controlled from day 1. But some of us have the DNA of the creators...Imagine when we won't have to worry about where we will live and where we will get food? We can have a lot more fun then! :p In the meantime, we have the concepts of the higher life and mental/emotional ideals. We won't always be living them, though. I believe that part of growth is making mistakes and apparently feeling like I've been bludgeoned by a baseball bat sometimes. Still. We have the connection to the tremendous beauty you and I refer to. Congratulations, you are continuing to delight me, and I'm sure others, with your growth and insight.
Love, angel

I'll check out those papers. Thanks for talking to me, you're pretty easy to talk to. I know if it was the other way round, I would hate talking to me. :D

[azureangel]

Thanks Angel, its helping me to figure stuff out. I appreciate your responses, and also everyone elses. There's really no one to talk to about this kind of things and I'm not much of a speaker anyway.


Well, you're a heck of a writer. I mean it.

Holograms are pretty neat. Do you mean in the way you can cut up a hologram and it has the same picture as the original, except with a creator being dividing up into trillions of pieces, with the same information?

Yes, exactly. There is an original Creator from which we came, but we have all the information of that Creator in us; it's just not at our disposal YET.
Seth Speaks- tells it all.


I'll check out those papers. Thanks for talking to me, you're pretty easy to talk to. I know if it was the other way round, I would hate talking to me. :D

You really don't see yourself yet! ;) As I said, it's an immense pleasure corresponding with you. I have one friend with whom I can talk in person about this stuff, but he's more on the Christian side and so we don't really explore the ideas, but share our similarities. Still, I feel SO lucky to have this friend. Especially since he was here for me when I discovered the DI stuff a few months ago and went down deep into fear and depression for a bit. But anyway...I discovered on another area of this forum that many people seem to think we're all slaves and there's no help for it. Gah! Can't believe that! I'm watching for signs of the crumbling of the structure. There really is evidence that the power structure is ending. Hope your weekend is going well.
Love, angel

P.S. I wish I could get the hang of using quotes. I either can't get the blue box, or like this time I got the box but some of my answers ended up inside. Is there somewhere to look to learn these skills? Thanks!

[batou]

Ha, you're too kind Angel. :p It was a busy weekend, I hope yours was good. I made a fire pit, cut some wood, leveled out the yard, and worked.

I think being a slave is a state of mind - self imposed... there's that creating your own reality again.
(says me, working all week end :D)

Quotes are a pain.. if you quote someone using the quote button to create your reply:
(Bill) who had a quote in their post (Ted)
You will only quote Bill, and Ted's will disappear.
Maybe this is a programming 'feature' or a mistake.. I don't know. But nested quotes are always a pain in the ass on message boards.. eventually everyone quotes everyone else and the whole conversation ends up in each post.

But here's my trick to divide and conquer quotes in single posts...
It will say, when you hit quote..
[ QUOTE=azureangel;xxxxxxxxxx ]
where x is a unqiue number (the post number - You need this for the little box to click to see the post)
So usually I copy from first bracket [ to last bracket ] and then paste it in between the quote when I want to break it up. Don't forget to put the close quote in where you want the quote to end and for you to type [ / QUOTE]
So its like this:
[ QUOTE=azureangel;xxxxxxxxxx ]
Yohohoho!
[ /QUOTE ]

Yarrr!

[ QUOTE=azureangel;xxxxxxxxxx ]
Sixteen men on a dead mans chest.
[ /QUOTE ]

Yohoho and a bottle of rum.


I had to put spaces in between the brackets for this for you to see.
Sometimes I make posts and it becomes a big clusterfuck and brackets and tags disappear in preview, addresses cut off because of = and ? and stuff..
I can't ever hyper link to a google.books page successfully.

[azureangel]

Do you mean I actually use a bracket along with quote or a bracket appears? I too notice that sometimes the functions work and other times don't.

Yes, I had a productive weekend; finally got some of my compost into big planting containers and have heirloom vegetable seeds on their way. It's Hawaii so I can plant greens for now. Very excited, it's been 8 months of picking up horse manure and watching my compost mounds grow. Finally some plants will be planted!

Today was Thanksgiving in US so I gathered with lovely friends and ate massive quantities of turkey and other goodies. Quite nice. Earlier though, I found some very interesting information posted by deckard666 on this awakening forum under the "know the grail law" thread, page 63. You may have read this; it's from the ATS forum, called the Hidden Hand Dialogue. This finally spelled out to me the function of "evil" in our matrix. I believe that even "evil" is another form of Love trying to function. Love being the same as the creative urge of the spirit. I'd highly recommend the reading of this posting, someone took and simplified the series of posts to a question-and-answer format. Briefly, a being self-identified as higher order "illuminatus" comes out and answers questions for just under a week. I feel I've reached another significant level of understanding. This being also talks about what to expect when the change, or whatever we want to call it, happens. Thanks to deckard666 for the posting.

I didn't read all the reactions on the "grail" thread as I'm not interested in the "grail" but found this under another poster's comments. If you have time and read it (anyone else too) I'd love to know your thoughts. More stuff which requires, yep, an open mind. ;)
Love, angel

[arela]

I apologise in advance if people find my sifting through the OPs opening post tiring, boring or just plain agravating, but certain stimuli make me a hyper-analytical freak at times, and that's what Batou's post did to me. lol

So here goes...

A lot of people seem to confuse being naive with being open minded. Or the idea that disagreeing with me is having a closed mind.

True. The way I see it, having a truly open mind entails being able to "handle" all imput and processing it accordingly. If one disagrees with no real points to substantiate their views, just for the sake of disagreement, you will agree that it does indicate mental fencing if not total shut down.





I see a lot of wild, unsubstantiated claims based on hear say. I see a lot of people gobble it up in this quest for knowledge.

a/ I suggest you include in your mental journeys, one of Aristotle's great saying: "Whatever crosses a person's mind, even at the wildest fantasy level, is potentially feasible"

b/ I'm totally against "gobbling up" any given theory/conception/belief without personally processing/researching it. By the same token though, I'm also against instant and biased scoffing and dismissing any given piece of knowledge, info, view, without giving it the time of day, because my preconcieved notions of the world as I percieve it, don't go along with a notion put forward.

c/ the quest for knowledge is deeply rooted in some people's DNA. And it's a good thing.



Filling your head with bullshit is poisoning people's thinking.

It depends on what you'd call "bullshit".



It promotes this wishful thinking culture that gets nothing done and wastes your time.

Thought is a form of energy. EEG's (if nothing else) prove that much.
Also, you must know that one of the basic laws of physics is the law of attraction. So if one thinks positive, good things, why not attract them?



To me, it seems a lot more open minded to ask for evidence of claims and present opposing evidence, rather than just accept that something is true because it is different.

I don't think anyone woud accept something just "because it is different". One might tend to accept it (unsubstantiated) because it instinctively "sits well" with them. However, I agree that people should not swallow hook line and sinker- at face value and as an axiom- anything presented to them.






It almost seems like an elitist mentality, on one hand. A competition to accept the most alternative theories. Use the most magic. Get the best results from orgonite. Be the fluffiest thinker. On the other it seems like the total opposite of being open minded because there is fair criticisms which are simply rejected.


I'm against "fluffy" thinking my self, but I'm not a stickler to logic either, because logic goes hand in hand with knowledge. think how "magic" a microwave oven would seem to someone living in the 15h century for example. That doesn't mean microwave ovens weren't potentially feasible even then, it only means he lacked the knowledge of microwaves, therefore he couldn't process it on "logical" terms.




open minded: ready to entertain new ideas; "an open-minded curiosity"; "open-minded impartiality"

what's wrong with that?


Here's what I'm trying to get at..
There's a difference between probable and possible.

Really? and how can you tell which is which? (I don't believe in the word "impossible" by the way. Only "non feasible" at this stage and with the knowledge we possess to date)

The're is no super natural or magic either. Things occur under certain laws of physics, ALL within the "natural" sphere, which we propably know nothing about (yet), thus we are unable to explain/rationalize them.



Let's take an example and use generalizations of a type of thread and posters:
Claim:
"I'm getting attacked by demons."

Do you think that all you see/hear/feel is all there is? Well a microbiologist for one, will disagree with that, to the extend that what he sees under a microscope is much more than our plain sight can grasp. So what would make you believe that there aren't entities or forces at work, (be they demons or whatever else one may call them) that our technology can not detect (yet)?
So don't bet your life that what we cannot detect or percieve isn't there, because you might lose it. :o



I better stop here (for the moment at least).
I've put forward certain thoughts. If you respond, I'll come back with the rest of "my case".

[nirvana]

In response to the OP .....

My view is even more extreme than yours, in speaking of the dangers of an open mind. Rape is an unwanted, unwelcome, forced attack on a person in the most physically intimate way possible. Well, people's hearts, minds, and their souls are being raped every day in this world - and people either don't realize it, or they don't know how to stop it. Whether it's through the media, or by walking through the local mall, people's thoughts are continuously being intruded upon, and their emotions continuously violated. These are very effective means of hi-jacking the soul.

I'm aware of the strong stand that many people have against Christ, while they try to figure out how to defend themselves against the onslaught of the coming new world order. But it's God Who warns that we must guard our eyes and ears while in this world, which God also calls "gates".

If someone were being physically raped, the natural thing to do would be to try to escape the rapist. They certainly wouldn't return to the rapist once they got away. But yet when it's their minds that are being raped, people respond by opening their minds even further.

As a result, we're finally at a point where there's nothing that people *won't* believe.

Yes I did believe most things i read once. I watched a few david Ickes dvds and thought reptilians must be real. I also thought the ptb were trying to control me through the TV and yes nearly lost the plot on a number of occasions.
Then I started to ask a question where were researchers getting there info from? When i realised many were just copying what others had said ,the penny dropped.

That one of the biggest incentives for many researchers is the £ sign.

Alot of it is about marketing.And unless I could research reptilians etc myself ,then i would never know the real answer.

Alot of the anti nwo is just about down loading certain programmes into people to keep them going round and round in circles:eek:

[gooseone]

Do you mean I actually use a bracket along with quote or a bracket appears? I too notice that sometimes the functions work and other times don't.

Yes, I had a productive weekend; finally got some of my compost into big planting containers and have heirloom vegetable seeds on their way. It's Hawaii so I can plant greens for now. Very excited, it's been 8 months of picking up horse manure and watching my compost mounds grow. Finally some plants will be planted!

Today was Thanksgiving in US so I gathered with lovely friends and ate massive quantities of turkey and other goodies. Quite nice. Earlier though, I found some very interesting information posted by deckard666 on this awakening forum under the "know the grail law" thread, page 63. You may have read this; it's from the ATS forum, called the Hidden Hand Dialogue. This finally spelled out to me the function of "evil" in our matrix. I believe that even "evil" is another form of Love trying to function. Love being the same as the creative urge of the spirit. I'd highly recommend the reading of this posting, someone took and simplified the series of posts to a question-and-answer format. Briefly, a being self-identified as higher order "illuminatus" comes out and answers questions for just under a week. I feel I've reached another significant level of understanding. This being also talks about what to expect when the change, or whatever we want to call it, happens. Thanks to deckard666 for the posting.

I didn't read all the reactions on the "grail" thread as I'm not interested in the "grail" but found this under another poster's comments. If you have time and read it (anyone else too) I'd love to know your thoughts. More stuff which requires, yep, an open mind. ;)
Love, angel

That was the most amazing stuff i read in a while tbo :D
Which brings me to the following about the open mind.
I almost never just gubble anything up , but when i'm totally awestruck and vibrating when i'm getting some info i just go with it and automatically integrate it within somehow.
I mean , i can be open minded and some of the most far out stuff for me does frequently place a seed in my brain which presents itself in a nice little growing thing in my head (lol).
So i can be open minded and try to feel for someone when reading something but i could never read something that others beieve as the truth and focus on it and try to convince myself that's it .......
Hard to explain actually.
If one does that and keeps in mind the Law of attraction and creating your own reality i can see reptillians be created.
I haven't explained the supernatural for myself (won't bother too much also because i probably cannot interpretate it the right way if it's even out there)but i can see many weird stuff happening when people convince themself to believe something.
This is coming from a point of view where i hope my feelings/intuition is right about the things i resonate with...how's that for an open mind :D

[batou]

Hi everyone.. I was reluctant to post again on this thread since it had fallen silent/run out of steam/fulfilled its purpose (to me). But I do want to say thanks to you guys for all your viewpoints here.
I've been given a lot of info to read which I regrettably haven't got around to yet because it's been so busy.
I started this thread addressed to other people, but really I think it was selfish reasons to figure things out myself - why do people believe things, what do people see that I don't, etc...
Thanks for your reply arela (I put in blue), I don't find it boring at all.
Here's my response (I put in green)

=================

I apologise in advance if people find my sifting through the OPs opening post tiring, boring or just plain agravating, but certain stimuli make me a hyper-analytical freak at times, and that's what Batou's post did to me. lol

So here goes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by batou http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1058410708#post1058410708)
A lot of people seem to confuse being naive with being open minded. Or the idea that disagreeing with me is having a closed mind.

True. The way I see it, having a truly open mind entails being able to "handle" all imput and processing it accordingly. If one disagrees with no real points to substantiate their views, just for the sake of disagreement, you will agree that it does indicate mental fencing if not total shut down.

Agree



Quote:
I see a lot of wild, unsubstantiated claims based on hear say. I see a lot of people gobble it up in this quest for knowledge.
a/ I suggest you include in your mental journeys, one of Aristotle's great saying: "Whatever crosses a person's mind, even at the wildest fantasy level, is potentially feasible"

I didn't know that saying so I was trying to find it in context but I couldn't. I found Descartes, and some other Aristotle quotes which seem appropriate that I'll put here:

"The distinction between mind and body is argued in Meditation VI as follows: I have a clear and distinct idea of myself as a thinking, non-extended thing, and a clear and distinct idea of body as an extended and non-thinking thing. Whatever I can conceive clearly and distinctly, God can so create. So, Descartes argues, the mind, a thinking thing, can exist apart from its extended body. And therefore, the mind is a substance distinct from the body, a substance whose essence is thought." (Wiki entry on dualism)

Aristotle:

"Probable impossibilities are to be preferred to improbable possibilities."

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."


The last quote I think is one of the central themes of this thread.. To entertain thoughts without having to accept them - I need to do this more myself.

b/ I'm totally against "gobbling up" any given theory/conception/belief without personally processing/researching it. By the same token though, I'm also against instant and biased scoffing and dismissing any given piece of knowledge, info, view, without giving it the time of day, because my preconcieved notions of the world as I percieve it, don't go along with a notion put forward.

That's a good way to think! I know sometimes I dismiss things that way. But in my defense, I have a pretty solid background in sciences. That plays into a lot of thinking I just know something. I'm sure theres a word for it, but where you think, without thinking.. You just sort of know things, your brain weighs stuff up based on your previous experience, and you don't have to work it out. Instict? There's scale of requiring belief though.. If something requires a lot of belief... why should you invest in that? It's a long shot, but the odds are against it. A lot of things people present are philosophical or metaphysical ideas, but then they claim them to be facts. That is what gets me the most.. these things aren't facts! They're just ideas to help you interpret the unseen mechanics of the world and your mind. Another example is channellings.. All the information people get through that, a lot of people believe it. That's a lot of belief to put in someone. But then they say it resonates with them.. That means they want to believe it for some reasons? I admit, I'm very confused and lost in this world and I would like to find the answers too.

c/ the quest for knowledge is deeply rooted in some people's DNA. And it's a good thing.

That's true. Some people want to take things apart to see how they work, and some people are content to see things as they are.

Quote:
Filling your head with bullshit is poisoning people's thinking.
It depends on what you'd call "bullshit".

Yeah I guess that was a strong subjective statement... I mean, when you accept one thing as truth, based solely on belief, it creates a branching effect on your subsequent thinking. Does that make sense?


Quote:
It promotes this wishful thinking culture that gets nothing done and wastes your time.
Thought is a form of energy. EEG's (if nothing else) prove that much.
Also, you must know that one of the basic laws of physics is the law of attraction. So if one thinks positive, good things, why not attract them?

I don't believe the law of attraction as it is presented. Talking with AzureAngel earlier, I do agree you create your own internal reality. But I'm not sold on the idea that external events can be seen as good or bad. If something happens, it simply happens. Then you interpret it as good or bad. If you create your own internal reality, you will be able to find good things or bad things from those events. The law of attraction does not explain why bad things happen to good people, and vice versa. How do you think the law of attraction interacts with the idea of Karma?

Quote:
To me, it seems a lot more open minded to ask for evidence of claims and present opposing evidence, rather than just accept that something is true because it is different.
I don't think anyone woud accept something just "because it is different". One might tend to accept it (unsubstantiated) because it instinctively "sits well" with them. However, I agree that people should not swallow hook line and sinker- at face value and as an axiom- anything presented to them.

Right, I agree there. What I meant was sometimes people get along a line of thinking, and will readily believe things because it does agree(sit well) with them. But this also includes earlier, where people poison their thinking and it branches off. Sometimes, to me, it seems that people believe it because it is not the norm, and they want some magic.




Quote:
It almost seems like an elitist mentality, on one hand. A competition to accept the most alternative theories. Use the most magic. Get the best results from orgonite. Be the fluffiest thinker. On the other it seems like the total opposite of being open minded because there is fair criticisms which are simply rejected.

I'm against "fluffy" thinking my self, but I'm not a stickler to logic either, because logic goes hand in hand with knowledge. think how "magic" a microwave oven would seem to someone living in the 15h century for example. That doesn't mean microwave ovens weren't potentially feasible even then, it only means he lacked the knowledge of microwaves, therefore he couldn't process it on "logical" terms.

Clarkes three laws:


When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic


Quote:
open minded: ready to entertain new ideas; "an open-minded curiosity"; "open-minded impartiality"
what's wrong with that?

:D Nothing.. thats what I am meaning, how people think they are open minded regarding things, but they are actually being closed minded, because they refuse to see the other side.. Acceptance is chosen over entertaining, and they consider themself to be open minded. A person with an open mind thinks something is possible. A person with a closed mind claims to know.. and I think that is what a lot of people do, but consider themself to have an open mind, simply because the subject is unusual/paranormal etc.


Quote:
Here's what I'm trying to get at..
There's a difference between probable and possible.
Really? and how can you tell which is which? (I don't believe in the word "impossible" by the way. Only "non feasible" at this stage and with the knowledge we possess to date)

The're is no super natural or magic either. Things occur under certain laws of physics, ALL within the "natural" sphere, which we propably know nothing about (yet), thus we are unable to explain/rationalize them.

I agree with you again. There's so much we do not know. Maybe we will be able to explain and dissect the universe at some point. My meaning of probability and possibility is really based on things we know. If something has a probability, we can actually explain it or it has a chance of happening. Possibilities are arbitrary ideas of what could happen.


Quote:
Let's take an example and use generalizations of a type of thread and posters:
Claim:
"I'm getting attacked by demons."
Do you think that all you see/hear/feel is all there is? Well a microbiologist for one, will disagree with that, to the extend that what he sees under a microscope is much more than our plain sight can grasp. So what would make you believe that there aren't entities or forces at work, (be they demons or whatever else one may call them) that our technology can not detect (yet)?
So don't bet your life that what we cannot detect or percieve isn't there, because you might lose it. :o

No I don't think I do see/feel/hear everything there is. I know there is more out there. But I think you are taking what I said out of context... I meant, again, possibility/probability. Someone claims a demonic attack... This does not mean demons are attacking them. Demons have never been proven, but people will readily arrive with all kinds of magic cures at the very idea of it, already sold on demons. It's POSSIBLE demons are attacking you, but it's MOST PROBABLE you have a sickness of some kind or are lying. It's LEAST PROBABLE demons are in your head.


I better stop here (for the moment at least).
I've put forward certain thoughts. If you respond, I'll come back with the rest of "my case".

===========

Thanks arela, I look forward to that, you are very smart and helping me learn. :D

[open mind]

Had to respond to this thread seeing as its my username... :D

To me having an open mind does not mean accepting everything you see and read as the truth, it means being open to possibility.

Being able to consider and give thought to new ideas and opinions even if they directly challenge your own.

[wasd]

If think you all would be interested in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

Got a lot of wise stuff in it, I really liked it.

[batou]

If think you all would be interested in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI
Got a lot of wise stuff in it, I really liked it.

Thanks wasd, that's a great video. It explains what I wanted/tried to say, but much better :D

[misterethoughts]

Such a beautiful post! Thank you.

[white horse]

I know that I may be 'aware' but I am not 'awake'.

I know that I do not 'know what is going on'.

But what I do know 100% is that anything tha is officially presented is never 100% true, therefore soemthing else must be.

then the theoretical games begin!

Afterall, I feel that there is no longer any single piece of empirical evidence in existence that can be claimed to be 100% unaldulterated and unsullied. ALL EVIDENCE FOR ALL THINGS HAS TO BE SUPECTED.

In the end, after all the empirical evidence has been sifted thru, I go with my antennae - it is there for a reason. I look for the resonance, trust my jedi instincts; my gut reaction; that unquantifiable, illdefined aspect of my psyche that cannot be measured.

And just sometimes it can be useful to go outside and thump the pavements with your fist to see if it is real or not...!!!

It's a mindfuck alright innit?!?! :confused: