Is this normal for a 26 year old male?

[cajun]

Hey,

This is only my second post, but I'm amazed at the information you guys share!!! I'd love your opinions on my situation,
guys.

I’ve have had difficulty breathing since a kid and this has left me with some strange symptoms over the years, including:

Wakening up lots of times during sleep with VIVID dreams;
Unable to remember simple words or phrases a lot of the time;
Difficulty speaking with people, and putting a coherent sentence together;
Virtually no interest in things at times and a SEVERE lack of motivation too;
Vague memories of childhood - I was with friends and were stopped on the street by a lady who my friends said worked
at our junior school as a dinner lady. Till this very day I’ve got no recollection of her.

I have a constant tightness around my chest just under the breast bone, which varies a lot. My GP suggested it could
be anxiety, though there is no consistency to the pain - it can get really bad when I’m relaxed OR stressed.
The closest thing to a diagnosis I got was when a GP pointed out I have a thin nose, which can restrict breathing.

At the start of the year I had a chest X-Ray, which came back fine. A few weeks later I got tested for Asthma, and my
GP said my ‘breathing was above average for a man in his 20’s. I also saw an ENT Consultant for Sleep Apnoea 9 months
ago, and spoke with a Neurologist - both gave the all clear too, but mentioned health and diet. This led me to seriously
think about my what I was eating and drinking.

I use an nasal irrigation system in the morning with a lukewarm saline solution, and eat organic, raw food and vegy diet
mostly, some protein (mostly dry skinless free range chicken), and stay away from dairy, since it just clogs me up. I like
to snack on Brazil nuts, and have fresh salmon or tuna twice a week on some spelt bread or oatcake with Olive oil. i get
bad hangovers, so stay away from booz (unless it’s the holidays, or a birthday.. :D). I smoked for 2 years, but stopped,
though I started again 2 months ago. I’ve cut it down to 3 cigs a day and plan to stop by the end of this week.
I drink peppermint tea with honey through the day for my IBS and have a day off once a week when I get an Indian –
usually a chicken Roshan Josh and Chapattis.

I need some advice.

Colin

[jammasterj13]

Maybe your problem is spiritual and not physical?

I have experienced some of the symptoms you describe in your OP.

I don't know how much belief you have in the spiritual, but I put it down to a Kundalini awakening.
There is no medical test for Kundalini.:D

When I read the symptoms of a Kundalini Awakening I nearly fell off my chair with shock.

Read here and see if anything resonates with you:-

http://www.elcollie.com/st/symptoms.html

If it is kundalini then the only advice I can give you is to start meditating and just hang in there.

You could try Pranayama breathing exercises, very effective with breath related maladies and for relieving stress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvdiMjSgItg

Reiki healing is very effective also. Qigong exercises.

[exclamatio]

hi colin, jammaster has a greatreply there, id be pretty much suggesting the same thing

I get the feeling your problem isnt physical, just most of the symptoms :P

what is your lifestyle like?

[pureheart]

I drink peppermint tea with honey through the day for my IBS and have a day off once a week when I get an Indian –
usually a chicken Roshan Josh and Chapattis.



Hi Colin

I don't believe that IBS exists as an 'illness' but is actually a symptom of food intolerance. If you have breathing difficulties I would say it was dairy. I see that you avoid it already, but how strict are you? The other culprit in my case was eggs. It can take up to 12 hours or so for the symptoms appear, so it's worth keeping a food diary.

I'm sure that Patrick Holford once said that if you are sensitive eggs can cause problems with the brain too - I'm sure he said that there may even be a link between eggs and schizophrenia. :eek:

Have you ever read the Blood Type Diet books by Peter D'Adamo?

[cajun]

Jammaster - Thank you for that link. Yes, I could relate to just about every one of those symptoms, frightengly so. Especially the spasms/twitches -
a broken back two and a half years ago made me experience these violent ‘jolts’ in my body, so much so that I would nearly jump out my hospital bed!
The consultant’s’ couldn’t explain it. This has gradually reduced to slight twitches or ’ticks’. It’s especially irritating when tired, as it wakes me up.

exclamatio – I do internet marketing so a lot of my time is spent inside, though I try to get outside at least once a day for some fresh air, and do an
art course once a week. One thing I’ve started doing is grounding, standing barefoot in the back garden. Though at this time of year it's freezing!

Pureheart – I don’t drink milk anymore, as this was what doing it for me. I like the diary idea and have noticed that even though my diet’s now good,
there is still certain foods I eat which can upset my stomach. Yesterday for instance, we ran out of spelt, so I used Tesco's wholemeal brown bread,
and noticed my stomach rumbling slightly. I’ve been in hospital 3 times in my early 20’s with it.

No, I haven’t read that book. I’ll take a look, Pureheart.

Thanks,
Colin

[deetox]

Almost every health problem is the result of 2 things, deficiency and toxicity. Your diet is better than most but if I were you I'd try switching to a 100% whole food plant based diet and go on a serious detox program. Many people are using that formula to cure themselves of everything from acne and joint pain to heart disease and stage 4 terminal cancer. It will also improve your mental cognition and significantly increase your energy and motivation, it's THE fix for pretty much anything.

If you're skeptical I suggest you visit this site and check out some of the content, especially the documentaries called Food Matters, Eating 3rd edition and Healing Cancer (not just about healing cancer).

http://www.betterhealththroughdiet.com/

[merlincove]

Hey Colin,

welcome to the forum my friend.

i have a friend who used to have some breathing issues very like the ones that you describe, and such was diagnosed (through homeopathy) as being driven manly from food allergies. the symptoms would be caused mainly by almost any processed food stuff.

This may have some correlation with yourself and your symptoms. also i feel that you may suffer from allergies to animals, cats etc?

Have you tried to speak to Mike Lambert here on site?

He has a clinic on the Isle of White, is highly recomended, and is available for questions here:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=64

He may be able to offer you some advice.

There is also a product called Proxene ES, which costs £25 for a month's supply, you can get a trial pack for a fiver too. You might like to search it in google and you can pm me for details of where to get it if you like :D

And, welcome, again :D

[al209]

I would agree with deetox. Out with the shite and in with some nutrients. Raw vegan foods are known to be good for this.

I have found that after steady state cardio i feel mentally sharper so that may help with the mental block/fog, and cardio speeds up detox.. Joint mobility exercises help to clear toxins stored there. Search youtube for intu-flow, its best for this.

[paolo]

Cheers for giving some very clear rubrics for an essence of a homeopathic consultation - the remedy's standing out like a sore thumb, but I can't just grasp it now. I'll take a look at the repertory tomorrow and see what it comes up with

[cajun]

Almost every health problem is the result of 2 things, deficiency and toxicity. Your diet is better than most but if I were you I'd try switching to a 100% whole food plant based diet and go on a serious detox program. Many people are using that formula to cure themselves of everything from acne and joint pain to heart disease and stage 4 terminal cancer. It will also improve your mental cognition and significantly increase your energy and motivation, it's THE fix for pretty much anything.

If you're skeptical I suggest you visit this site and check out some of the content, especially the documentaries called Food Matters, Eating 3rd edition and Healing Cancer (not just about healing cancer).

http://www.betterhealththroughdiet.com/

I've watched the first documentary. I didn't realise how much heating can affect your food! Though the whole plant food based diet confuses me...
Is it not true that those who don't eat meat are seriously mineral deficiencient? I like to eat chicken once daily and would find it hard to go through
the day without my usual 20%.

Hey Colin,

welcome to the forum my friend.

i have a friend who used to have some breathing issues very like the ones that you describe, and such was diagnosed (through homeopathy) as being driven manly from food allergies. the symptoms would be caused mainly by almost any processed food stuff.

This may have some correlation with yourself and your symptoms. also i feel that you may suffer from allergies to animals, cats etc?

Have you tried to speak to Mike Lambert here on site?

He has a clinic on the Isle of White, is highly recomended, and is available for questions here:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=64

He may be able to offer you some advice.

There is also a product called Proxene ES, which costs £25 for a month's supply, you can get a trial pack for a fiver too. You might like to search it in google and you can pm me for details of where to get it if you like :D

And, welcome, again :D

Hi, thanks! I don't have allergies to animals, no (we've got a rabbit), but am becoming more and more interested in alternative therapies/medicine
so will look at the homoeopathy. The processed foods make absolute sense though. In the past, whenever I ate heavy foods (or anything for that
matter) I'd feel sleepy and usually had to lie down. Even the so called 'healthy eating' from supermarkets didn't do much good, so a raw food diet
makes sense to me.

Thank you for the Mark Lambert reference.

I tied PM'ing regarding the Proxene ES, but couldn't..

I would agree with deetox. Out with the shite and in with some nutrients. Raw vegan foods are known to be good for this.

I have found that after steady state cardio i feel mentally sharper so that may help with the mental block/fog, and cardio speeds up detox.. Joint mobility exercises help to clear toxins stored there. Search youtube for intu-flow, its best for this.

I usually do 20 minutes high intensity on the cross trainer daily, taking Sunday's off, al209. I've found this to be more suited to my lifestyle, though
I used to do 30 minute walks daily, but my ankles hurt like hell after.

I did try detoxing for one day, but eventually succumbed to the hunger. What I have being doing in the last week is, rather than having my usual
bath, I'll soak 3 lemons in a bowl of hot water for 30 mins, then add it to my bath. As a type of detox, I'll then soak in the bath for about a half hour.

Thank you for the into-flow reference.

[merlincove]

Hi, thanks! I don't have allergies to animals, no (we've got a rabbit), but am becoming more and more interested in alternative therapies/medicine
so will look at the homoeopathy. The processed foods make absolute sense though. In the past, whenever I ate heavy foods (or anything for that
matter) I'd feel sleepy and usually had to lie down. Even the so called 'healthy eating' from supermarkets didn't do much good, so a raw food diet
makes sense to me.

Thank you for the Mark Lambert reference.

I tied PM'ing regarding the Proxene ES, but couldn't..



you can contact mike through the healthy section of the forum under shen clinic, you can create a thread there :D

pm functioin should be activated?

[al209]

I usually do 20 minutes high intensity on the cross trainer daily, taking Sunday's off, al209. I've found this to be more suited to my lifestyle, though
I used to do 30 minute walks daily, but my ankles hurt like hell after.

I did try detoxing for one day, but eventually succumbed to the hunger. What I have being doing in the last week is, rather than having my usual
bath, I'll soak 3 lemons in a bowl of hot water for 30 mins, then add it to my bath. As a type of detox, I'll then soak in the bath for about a half hour.

Thank you for the into-flow reference.

I find that the higher the intensity, the less pronounce the effect. Try dropping your heart rate into the "Fat burn zone", around 65% of max, and trying to up the time to a max of 45 mins. A diet based around intermittent fasting such as ori hofmeklers Warrior diet may be beneficial for detoxing. Its basically a controlled fast during the day and a big healthy pig out at night.
Intu-flow and joint mobility in general as well as yoga type practices are fantastic adjuncts to health and everyone should do this daily IMO.

[cajun]

I find that the higher the intensity, the less pronounce the effect. Try dropping your heart rate into the "Fat burn zone", around 65% of max, and trying to up the time to a max of 45 mins. A diet based around intermittent fasting such as ori hofmeklers Warrior diet may be beneficial for detoxing. Its basically a controlled fast during the day and a big healthy pig out at night.
Intu-flow and joint mobility in general as well as yoga type practices are fantastic adjuncts to health and everyone should do this daily IMO.

I was just going to ask about detox - I'll look into the warrior diet.

I was under the impression HIC exercise was best for calorie loss? I'm looking to loss the weight I put on since hitting my 20's.

[al209]

Stop-start high intensity exercises such as sprints, kettlebell intervals etc are best for fat loss. steady state cardio only burns calories while you do it. intervals burn fat for up to 36 hrs after. Google HIIT & Tabata Protocol.
Steady state is not without its benefits but fat loss isnt one of them.

[al209]

The warrior diet is a bit daft in places but the overall message is very good. For a more science based book on the subject of Intermmittent fasting read Maximum Muscle Minimum Fat by Ori Hofmekler (author of the warrior diet) and Eat Stop Eat by Brad Pilon

[deetox]

I've watched the first documentary. I didn't realise how much heating can affect your food! Though the whole plant food based diet confuses me...
Is it not true that those who don't eat meat are seriously mineral deficiencient? I like to eat chicken once daily and would find it hard to go through
the day without my usual 20%.

Absolute hogwash, plants contain everything our bodies need with the exception of vitamin b-12 (they'd have that too if we didn't wash all the soil off them). People have been heavily brainwashed by governments and the food industry into thinking meat and animal products are a requirement for good health. This is not true at all, they actually DEGRADE our health and we'd be a hell of a lot better off without them.

Look around you, damn near everyone has some kind of health problem, our hospitals are full of sick people, prescription drug sales are through the roof, 2/3 of people are overweight and 90% of us are dying of degenerative diseases. It's a provable fact that this sad state of affairs is primarily caused by the food people are eating, and we all know how often meat shows up on their plates. Watch those other 2 documentaries on that site and you'll learn all about how dangerous it really is.

I personally went vegan around 3 months ago and I am nothing short of astonished at the difference it has made so far. I've easily lost 15 pounds, all my chronic digestion and gastrointestinal problems are gone, I no longer have constipation or diarrhea, I don't have joint pain anymore, I no longer get headaches, I have more energy, I don't need as much sleep, my mind is sharper, my mood is better, I don't break out with acne anymore and even my body odor seems to have disappeared! All those improvements in only 3 months!! and I haven't even started on a proper detox regimen yet.

Human beings simply weren't designed to eat meat, I am absolutely convinced of that now. We may be capable of consuming meat and converting it into sustainable energy that we can survive on but it's impossible for us to THRIVE on it. What we truly need in order to live a life of consistent wellness is to eat a steady diet of nutrient dense, enzyme rich food that our bodies can easily digest and assimilate, only plants can give us that.

[cajun]

I personally went vegan around 3 months ago and I am nothing short of astonished at the difference it has made so far. I've easily lost 15 pounds, all my chronic digestion and gastrointestinal problems are gone, I no longer have constipation or diarrhea, I don't have joint pain anymore, I no longer get headaches, I have more energy, I don't need as much sleep, my mind is sharper, my mood is better, I don't break out with acne anymore and even my body odor seems to have disappeared!


I agree with you here; a lot of my indigestion issues are also starting to dissapear. If I eat/drink anything remotely unhealthy now,
(coffee being one), my stomack doesn't agree with it. I've lost a stone in only a month through a better diet. My joints also do not
'click' as much as they used to, and I notice more freedom when walking.

Though body odour continues to be an issue with me, despite bathing daily and using no SLS or fraganced soaps and aftershaves.
Equally, my energy continues to be severly lacking. I feel this may be more down to the medications I'm taking for the bipolar.

Do you take vitamins, deetox?

[al209]

deetox, what about insects then? do they qualify as meat? Certainly it involves the taking of a sentient life. Apes eat a fair percentage of them. A fact often overlooked by vegans.

And how come no hunter gatherer tribes have been observed as 100% vegan? They all eat at least a small percentage of animal foods. I'm not trying to antagonise you, I just think that recommending the elimination of all animal foods is a little hasty. There are certainly foods a lot more detrimental to health than meat, especially wild or organic meat that has no added antibiotics etc. If we were truly meant to be herbivores, like a rabbit say, we would not be able to make use of animal based foods at all, and it would poison us, quickly, like it does the rabbit. Our species has survived for millions of years eating it in some quantity or other, alongside raw vegan foods which i agree are very healthy, again, in appropriate amounts. Too many greens or fruit can be bad for you also.

I think a huge factor in the vegan thinking is the cruelty/taking of life and some unquantifiable spiritual factor thats alleged to go with it. The main thrust of any species is survival first and foremost and the taking of another life to achieve that goal is not a problem for the vast majority of them. So i dont buy it as a reason to not eat meat. Not to mention that animal fats allowed our brains to develop to what they are.

3 months isnt a huge amount of time to determine the efficacy of any diet really. What was your diet like before you went vegan? Standard American?

Again, not trying to call you out about this just want a proper discussion.

[deetox]

I agree with you here; a lot of my indigestion issues are also starting to dissapear. If I eat/drink anything remotely unhealthy now,
(coffee being one), my stomack doesn't agree with it. I've lost a stone in only a month through a better diet. My joints also do not
'click' as much as they used to, and I notice more freedom when walking.

Though body odour continues to be an issue with me, despite bathing daily and using no SLS or fraganced soaps and aftershaves.
Equally, my energy continues to be severly lacking. I feel this may be more down to the medications I'm taking for the bipolar.

Do you take vitamins, deetox?

Yes I take a whole food multivitamin, vitamin c, vitamin d, vitamin b-12, magnesium and msm.

[deetox]

deetox, what about insects then? do they qualify as meat? Certainly it involves the taking of a sentient life. Apes eat a fair percentage of them. A fact often overlooked by vegans.

I haven't overlooked that, I read about it in a vegan book. Apparently insects make up only 3% of their diet, the rest is 50% fruit, 40% greens and 7% seeds, nuts, pith, and bark. Why do they eat insects? I read it might be to fill their protein requirements when their usual sources are scarce but it's hard to know for certain. Whatever the reason is I'm sure they're capable of surviving without them.

And how come no hunter gatherer tribes have been observed as 100% vegan? They all eat at least a small percentage of animal foods. I'm not trying to antagonise you, I just think that recommending the elimination of all animal foods is a little hasty.

All that shows is that they've made a choice to include animal foods in their diets. It doesn't mean they require them. Maybe they do it because they like the taste? Thats why most people eat animal foods.

There are certainly foods a lot more detrimental to health than meat, especially wild or organic meat that has no added antibiotics etc. If we were truly meant to be herbivores, like a rabbit say, we would not be able to make use of animal based foods at all, and it would poison us, quickly, like it does the rabbit.

Some foods may be more dangerous but most of those aren't consumed in as much quantity as animal foods are. From what I've read it's still up in the air how much healthier organic grass fed meat is than factory farmed meat. Some of the studies that link eating meat to disease were conducted before growth hormones and antibiotics were even introduced so the difference likely isn't as big as you might think.

You also make the mistake of thinking all herbivores are the same as rabbits. What about cows? Some of them are fed ground up meat and they don't get quickly poisoned from it. Just because animal foods degrade our health over time instead of giving us a quick death that means we were meant to eat them. I think it's far more logical that we were meant to eat a diet of plant foods since they increase our health over time and extend our lives.

Overall we definitely share a heck of a lot more similarities with herbivores than we do with omnivores or carnivores, this is easily provable. Would you care to try and debunk this video and the following chart?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05zhL1YUd8Q

http://www.vegantraveler.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Comparative-anatomy-of-eating2-791x1024.jpg

Our species has survived for millions of years eating it in some quantity or other, alongside raw vegan foods which i agree are very healthy, again, in appropriate amounts. Too many greens or fruit can be bad for you also.

Like that video said human culture may have evolved to eat meat but our bodies certainly haven't. If we actually needed meat in our diets then how did we survive before we discovered how to use weapons to kill animals? Nobody can deny that we started out as herbivores, so why is it so hard to believe that we were designed as herbivores? Seems like common sense to me.

Eating lots of fruits doesn't seem to be that bad, some people even thrive as fruitarians. It's sure as heck not anywhere near as bad as eating too many animal foods thats for sure. As for greens they're only harmful if you're eating too much of one species of green. Each type contains a unique alkaloid that can be somewhat poisonous if a large amount of it builds up in your system. All you have to do to keep that from happening is to rotate different types of greens in your diet so you never build up too much of a particular alkaloid.

I think a huge factor in the vegan thinking is the cruelty/taking of life and some unquantifiable spiritual factor thats alleged to go with it. The main thrust of any species is survival first and foremost and the taking of another life to achieve that goal is not a problem for the vast majority of them. So i dont buy it as a reason to not eat meat. Not to mention that animal fats allowed our brains to develop to what they are.

I personally think that "animal fat developed our brains" theory is ridiculous. Meat does not carry the nutrition our brains require to develop and operate at an optimum level, only plant foods have it. I've already proven that true to myself, as I said before my mental cognition has definitely increased since I changed my diet.

As for the spiritual factor I wouldn't say it's "unquantifiable". If you've researched quantum physics you should know that everything in existence is connected at the quantum level. The more spiritual you are the more you can feel that connection and the symbiotic bond we share with all forms of life. I myself have always felt that way towards animals, I wanted to stop eating meat years ago but I was so addicted to it I just couldn't quit. I didn't think I'd ever have the strength to stop but 3 months ago I was watching a food documentary and was absolutely shocked when it showed the horrific way factory farmed animals are treated. I knew they were treated badly but seeing it for myself effected me so deeply I decided right then and there that I was DONE eating meat.

You should read a book called "The World Peace Diet", I think it would really open your eyes to what I'm talking about, you can get a pdf copy at this site for free.

www.worldpeacediet.com

I will also make another post after this with a list of quotes you should read, if they don't speak to your soul I don't know what will.

3 months isnt a huge amount of time to determine the efficacy of any diet really. What was your diet like before you went vegan? Standard American?

Well I certainly never felt anywhere near this good on my old diet, I think thats a pretty obvious sign that I'm on the right track. I guess you could say I used to eat the SAD diet, I actually started adding in more fruits and veggies about 6 or 7 months ago but didn't go animal food free until 3 months ago. I've only been processed food free for about a month.

[deetox]

Heres the quotes I promised.

"How can man be possessed of kindness who, to increase his own flesh,
eats the flesh of other creatures. As those possess no property who do
not take care of it, so those possess no kindness who feed on flesh."
"Like the (murderous) mind of him who carries a weapon (in his hand),
the mind of him who feasts with pleasure on the body of another
(creature), has no regard for goodness."
"Man did not weave the web of life: he is merely a strand in it.
Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself. To harm the earth is to
heap contempt on its creator." -Red Indian Chief (1854)


"We pray on Sundays that we may have light/To guide our footsteps on
the path we tread;/We are sick of war, we don't want to fight,/And yet
we gorge ourselves upon the dead." -George Bernard Shaw


"Vegetarian food leaves a deep impression on our nature. If the whole
world adopts vegetarianism, it can change the destiny of humankind."
-Albert Einstein


"I do feel that spiritual progress does demand at some stage that we
should cease to kill our fellow creatures for the satisfaction of our
bodily wants." -Gandhi


"If man wants freedom why keep birds and animals in cages? Truly man
is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds them. We live by the
death of others. We are burial places! I have since an early age abjured
the use of meat." -Leonardo-da-Vinci


"Flesh eating is simply immoral, as it involves the performance of an
act which is contrary to moral feeling: killing. By killing, man
suppresses in himself, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity,
that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures like himself and by
violating his own feelings becomes cruel." "As long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields." -Leo Tolstoy


"My refusing to eat flesh occasioned an inconveniency, and I was frequently chided for my singularity, but, with this lighter repast, I made the greater progress, for greater clearness of head and quicker comprehension" "Flesh eating is unprovoked murder." -Benjamin Franklin


"I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals." -Henry Thoreau:


"I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being" -Abraham Lincoln


Genesis 1:29 "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." -God


"In that day the wolf and the lamb will lie down together, and the leopard and goats will be at peace. Calves and fat cattle will be safe among lions, and the little child shall lead them all. The cows will graze among bears; cubs and calves will lie down together, and lions will eat grass like the cows. . . Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for as the waters fill the sea, so shall the earth be full of the knowledge of the Lord." -Isaiah 11:6-10


"There will never be any peace in the world as long as we eat animals." -Isaac Bashevis Singer


"If a man aspires towards a righteous life, his first act of abstinence is from injury to animals." -Albert Einstein


"Not having known anything better does not alleviate the suffering of the animal. Its fundamental desires remain and it is the frustration of those desires that is a great part of its suffering. There are so many examples: the dairy cow who is never allowed to raise her young, the battery hen who can never walk or stretch her wings, the sow who can never build a nest or root for food in the forest litter, etc. Eventually we frustrate the animal's most fundamental desire of all - to live." -David Cowles-Hamar.


"In all the round world of utopia there is no meat. There used to be. But now we cannot stand the thought of slaughterhouses. And in a population that is all educated and at about the same level of physical refinement, it is practically impossible to find anyone who will hew a dead ox or pig. We never settled the hygienic aspect of meat-eating at all. This other aspect decided us. I can still remember as a boy the rejoicings over the closing of the last slaughterhouse." -H.G. Wells


"There is something so very dreadful, so satanic in tormenting those who have never harmed us, and who cannot defend themselves, who are utterly in our power, who have weapons neither of offence nor defense, that none but very hardened persons can endure the thought of it" -Cardinal Newman


"There will come a time...when civilized people will look back in horror on our generation and the ones that preceded it: the idea that we should eat other living things running around on four legs, that we should raise them just for the purpose of killing them! The people of the future will say "meat-eaters!" in disgust and regard us in the same way we regard cannibals and cannibalism"
-Dennis Weaver (actor)


"Awareness is bad for the meat business. Conscience is bad for the meat business. Sensitivity to life is bad for the meat business. DENIAL, however, the meat business finds indispensable."
-John Robbins, Diet for a New America


"When a man has pity on all living creatures then only is he noble." -Buddha (563? - 483? B.C.)


"Cruelty to animals is as if humans did not love God."
-Cardinal John Henry Newman


"...many vivisectors still claim that what they do helps save human lives. They are Iying. The truth is that animal experiments kill people, and animal researchers are responsible for the deaths of thousands of men, women and children every year."
-Dr. Vernon Coleman, Fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine, UK.


"We stopped eating meat many years ago. During the course of a Sunday lunch we happened to look out of the kitchen window at our young lambs playing happily in the fields. Glancing down at our plates, we suddenly realized that we were eating the leg of an animal who had until recently been playing in a field herself. We looked at each other and said, "Wait a minute, we love these sheep--they're such gentle creatures. So why are we eating them?" It was the last time we ever did."
-Linda and Paul McCartney (musicians)


"To be non-violent to human beings and to be a killer or enemy of poor
animals is Satan's philosophy. In this age there is always enmity
against animals, and therefore the poor creatures are always anxious.
The reaction of the poor animals is being forced on human society, and
therefore there is always the strain of cold or hot war between men,
individually, collectively or nationally...
"The earth affords a lavish supply of riches, of innocent foods, and
offers you banquets that involve no bloodshed or slaughter; only beasts
satisfy their hunger with flesh, and not even all of those, because
horses, cattle, and sheep live on grass. As long as men massacre
animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seeds of
murder and pain cannot reap joy and love."
-Pythagoras


"To my mind, the life of a lamb is no less precious than that of a human being. I should be unwilling to take the life of a lamb for the sake of the human body." -Mohandas Gandhi (1869-1948)


"Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace."
-Albert Schweitzer


"Out of 135 criminals, including robbers and rapists, 118 admitted that when they were children they burned, hanged and stabbed domestic animals." -Ogonyok(1979) (Soviet anti-cruelty magazine)


"I abhor vivisection with my whole soul. All the scientific discoveries stained with innocent blood I count as of no consequence." Mahatma Gandhi


"Animals are my friends...and I don't eat my friends." -George Bernard Shaw


"The human body has no more need for cows’ milk than it does for dogs’ milk, horses’ milk, or giraffes’ milk." -Michael Klaper, MD, author of Vegan Nutrition: Pure & Simple


"In every respect, vegans appear to enjoy equal or better health in comparison to both vegetarians and non-vegetarians." -T. Colin Campbell, PhD Professor of Nutrition, Cornell University (letter dated 3/29/98)


"If you step back and look at the data, the optimum amount of red meat you eat should be zero."
-Walter Willett, M.D., of Brigham and Women's Hospital, director of a study that found a close correlation between red meat consumption and colon cancer.


"When we kill the animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings." -William C. Roberts, M.D., editor of The American Journal of Cardiology


"The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of `real food for real people,' you'd better live real close to a real good hospital." -Neal D. Barnard, M.D., President, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, Washington, D.C

[entrangermercenary]

As I sit here tucking into my meat feast pizza with a bit of spice in it, licking my lips ive been reading the above post :eek: Now you have CONVERTED ME !!!

NOT

It tastes even better now , must of been the bit of mushroom I put on it eh :D

[deetox]

As I sit here tucking into my meat feast pizza with a bit of spice in it, licking my lips ive been reading the above post :eek: Now you have CONVERTED ME !!!

NOT

It tastes even better now , must of been the bit of mushroom I put on it eh :D

I feel much pity for you.

[al209]

deetox, i agree that morally the killing of another creature doesnt seem right. However, if creatures were not meant to consume other creatures, why does it occur throughout every facet of nature? Are all those creatures who consume others morally bankrupt?

Its generally accepted that throughout our evolutionary period the greatest advances in our brain capacity came when we began to eat animal foods containing DHA. If these foods essentially made uswhat we are today why should we turn our backs on them?

I am yet to see any science that tells us that unadulterated meat causes cancer, CV disease etc. The epidemiological data provided by T Colin Campbell is not cold hard science, and his rat studies were done using HUGE amounts of casein, which is not an ideal food to begin with. All of the studies blaming sat fat and cholesterol for heart disease epidemic have been disproven. AA, DHA and EPA are essential to our good health, all best obtained from animal sources. We can live solely on animal foods if necessary, we shouldnt be able to do this as herbivores. I would love to see some science showing meat consumption to be riskier than grain consumption.

[entrangermercenary]

I feel much pity for you.

Thank you for your pity for me . Its just nice to be thought about in any way at all :)

Right just off to check the snares ;)

[al209]

Its just nice to be thought about in any way at all :)

Then you will be pleased that i think you are a cock

[malingerer]

Hey,
I’ve have had difficulty breathing since a kid and this has left me with some strange symptoms over the years, including:

Wakening up lots of times during sleep with VIVID dreams;
Unable to remember simple words or phrases a lot of the time;
Difficulty speaking with people, and putting a coherent sentence together;
Virtually no interest in things at times and a SEVERE lack of motivation too;
Vague memories of childhood - I was with friends and were stopped on the street by a lady who my friends said worked
at our junior school as a dinner lady. Till this very day I’ve got no recollection of her.
I certainly suffer from all that. Tell me, does a single cigarette exhaust you? Do you have trouble following poetry? Broken sleep will ruin your memory and concentration not to mention make you unstable.

[nowhere]

Hey Cajun :)

Have you tried the 'Buteyko Method?'
It's a shallow-breathing technique developed in 1952 by the Russian doctor, Konstantin Buteyko.

Here's some info: http://blog.astraldynamics.com/?p=585

[malingerer]

I'm very conscious of the Buteyko method, and am always wary of all the deep breathing many disciplines recommend. Yes, breath from your pelvic floor (better yet soles of your feet) but no need to fill up each time.

[deetox]

deetox, i agree that morally the killing of another creature doesnt seem right. However, if creatures were not meant to consume other creatures, why does it occur throughout every facet of nature? Are all those creatures who consume others morally bankrupt?

Its generally accepted that throughout our evolutionary period the greatest advances in our brain capacity came when we began to eat animal foods containing DHA. If these foods essentially made uswhat we are today why should we turn our backs on them?

I am yet to see any science that tells us that unadulterated meat causes cancer, CV disease etc. The epidemiological data provided by T Colin Campbell is not cold hard science, and his rat studies were done using HUGE amounts of casein, which is not an ideal food to begin with. All of the studies blaming sat fat and cholesterol for heart disease epidemic have been disproven. AA, DHA and EPA are essential to our good health, all best obtained from animal sources. We can live solely on animal foods if necessary, we shouldnt be able to do this as herbivores. I would love to see some science showing meat consumption to be riskier than grain consumption.

#$$#@#&%$#@!@!!!!!

I typed out another detailed response to this but when I tried to submit I got an error message saying the ticket has expired or some crap. Unfrickenreal.

Oh well you can go on believing whatever you want, no way am I typing all that again. :mad:

[al209]

oh well deetox youll just have to be another vegan in a long line who has failed to convince me. At least your not as hostile as most. I dont want to have to believe anything. i want proof. No-one has offered anything yet, apart from the china study. Your quotes are touching, but ethics and spirituality are not a factor here. By your rationing an ant has as much right to live as a cow, an ape is quite happy to eat an ant, and probably a cow if it was smart enough to capture one. And you say we should eat like apes...or are we just apes that are smart enough to capture cows? anyway if you can offer any actual evidence that animal fat and protein is bad for you im all ears. Or eyes as the case may be. All the best..

[cajun]

I certainly suffer from all that. Tell me, does a single cigarette exhaust you? Do you have trouble following poetry? Broken sleep will ruin your memory and concentration not to mention make you unstable.

I used to feel sleepy, but don't feel it anymore, now that I've moved to tobacoo. In fact I feel more alert after a rollie.

In the past I've had big problems with lack of concentration particularly with poetry or difficult text. In school I would
attempt to read books, but could not take in any of the content. In fact, I couldn't tell you any of the books I 'read'.

Since my diet has improved I've noticed an improvement in concentration and energy though.

I'm away to get intolerance tested in a few hours in fact, malingerer, as well as craniosacral therapy.

[malingerer]

I find all grains muddle my brain. I too used to smoke rollies! Just one cigarette though would exhaust me for the day. If that doesn't happen to you we probably have different diseases. I'm sure I have some variant of cystic fibrosis. My GP says I don't cause I'd be dead (I'm twice your age) but my gastroenterologist disagrees and is going to put me through the tests.

Love the double 'o' on tobacco. What a give away!

[malingerer]

And do you know what the big elephant in the room of your symptoms is? Anxiety - the feeling that you don't have enough time to finish stuff. After a good night's sleep, infinity streaches before me.