The Darkness in Moderns Freemasonry

[stevepenny]

This thread is for Stewart Edwards to start the ball rolling as to the 'alledged' darkness within the Moderns form of Freemasonry.

Over to you Stewart!

[stewart edwards]

This thread is for Stewart Edwards to start the ball rolling as to the 'alledged' darkness within the Moderns form of Freemasonry.

Over to you Stewart!

Steve as I said before I am not your servant.

[stevepenny]

Steve as I said before I am not your servant.

So that will be...................................


































.................................... a big empty space.

Thought so

[stewart edwards]

Steve, why have your recent posts been aimed at trying to make me look daft?

What are you trying to prove? I am not your servant and you will not dictate to me.

[stevepenny]

Steve, why have your recent posts been aimed at trying to make me look daft?

What are you trying to prove? I am not your servant and you will not dictate to me.

Nope there's still a ...................................


































.................................... a big empty space.

Stewart; you have made several claims as to the darkness in Freemasonry. All i'm asking for is that you comment on what you think this darkness is.

I'm not looking for a solution.....i'm looking for the problem!!

[stewart edwards]

Once you start treating me better again I may respond to you. Any mason who has read my posts over the years knows the answers anyway, and I have already told you where to look and named a couple of your brothers to talk to for independent corrobative evidince.

I am not your plaything to dangle and ridicule Steve. Quite frankly I am disgused by your behaviour today.

[kadosh]

... Any mason who has read my posts over the years knows the answers anyway, and I have already told you where to look and named a couple of your brothers to talk to for independent corrobative evidince.
That is not an answer.

[stevepenny]

Once you start treating me better again I may respond to you. Any mason who has read my posts over the years knows the answers anyway, and I have already told you where to look and named a couple of your brothers to talk to for independent corrobative evidince.

I am not your plaything to dangle and ridicule Steve. Quite frankly I am disgused by your behaviour today.

Which post did you inform me where to look? And as for ridicule, you are managing that all by yourself.

What is this Darkness in Freemasonry that you talk of.

Either put up or shut up ;)

[thelucifer]

This pic tells a story that's as dark as it gets, via moderns Freemasonry and Washington DC.


http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee60/thelucifer_rp/img1.jpg

[stevepenny]

This pic tells a story that's as dark as it gets, via moderns Freemasonry and Washington DC.



That just shows an ability to draw straight lines on a grid. You can make the shape of a cat or a dog or a car with no real effort.

[thelucifer]

That just shows an ability to draw straight lines on a grid. You can make the shape of a cat or a dog or a car with no real effort.

LOL

So smart yet so dumb, and worse.

You show yourself to be a gamer with a post like that, which makes the pic all the more darker. :rolleyes:

Dont let me stop you though.

[free thinker]

You can make the shape of a cat or a dog or a car with no real effort.


http://makeitgreat.typepad.com/makeitgreat/gauntlet.jpg

[stevepenny]

http://makeitgreat.typepad.com/makeitgreat/gauntlet.jpg

Or a hand....even better :D

[stevepenny]

LOL

So smart yet so dumb, and worse.

You show yourself to be a gamer with a post like that, which makes the pic all the more darker. :rolleyes:

Dont let me stop you though.

This just proves how you are easily taken in by other peoples ideas. Ever had an original thought of your own?

Lets look at your assertions in greater detail. The Pentagram is much older than Freemasonry and yet never had an occult attachment until the 9th Century.

The Star of David became a symbol of the Zionist movement in 1948.

The pyramid with the all seeing eye (found on the 1 Dollar note) was designed by Pierre du Simitiere, who wasn't a Freemason.

The design by Thomas Jefferson, the only Freemason on the commitee, was discounted.

Congressman Charles Thompson decribed the eye symbol in 1882. He said "[it alludes] to the many signal interpositions of providence in favour of the American cause."

Pull the other one...it's got bells on it. In fact you can draw yourself a bell on the street map :rolleyes:

[thelucifer]

This just proves how you are easily taken in by other peoples ideas. Ever had an original thought of your own?

Lets look at your assertions in greater detail. The Pentagram is much older than Freemasonry and yet never had an occult attachment until the 9th Century.

The Star of David became a symbol of the Zionist movement in 1948.

The pyramid with the all seeing eye (found on the 1 Dollar note) was designed by Pierre du Simitiere, who wasn't a Freemason.

The design by Thomas Jefferson, the only Freemason on the commitee, was discounted.

Congressman Charles Thompson decribed the eye symbol in 1882. He said "[it alludes] to the many signal interpositions of providence in favour of the American cause."

Pull the other one...it's got bells on it. In fact you can draw yourself a bell on the street map :rolleyes:

Funny how you dont mention the Compasses and Square, atop an upside down cross.

I bet you dont see the horns on the Compasses either. :rolleyes:


Keep showing yourself a wanker for Freemasonry.


Honestly, you guys would be better off to just shut up.

[kadosh]

... Honestly, you guys would be better off to just shut up.
That will not happen. All the lies and nonsense messages posted about Freemasonry will be rebutted. Get used to it!

[azaziel01]

The symbol to me has mathematical connotations

The mystery school of the Pythagorean believed that it symbolised mathematical perfection.

Indeed within Christianity the pentagram was used to symbolise health.

This fundamentalist nonsense of it being the sign of the devil has probably come from leo taxil?

chris

[azaziel01]

(by the way "thelucifier" there is no need to be offensive to anyone in this forum to illustrate a point)

[thelucifer]

That will not happen. All the lies and nonsense messages posted about Freemasonry will be rebutted. Get used to it!

LOL

I got used to it years ago. :rolleyes:


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[thelucifer]

(by the way "thelucifier" there is no need to be offensive to anyone in this forum to illustrate a point)

What is offensive is the nonsense from masons like this one.


As if things are not as I have shown.



"Ever had an original thought of your own?"

This mason is an insulting game playing Wanker.



My first post was to the point without emotion, all they do from there is deny and insult my intelligence.

[stevepenny]

Funny how you dont mention the Compasses and Square, atop an upside down cross.

I bet you dont see the horns on the Compasses either. :rolleyes:


Keep showing yourself a wanker for Freemasonry.


Honestly, you guys would be better off to just shut up.

Assuming i'm looking at the right part of the street plan, one end of the compasses is aligned with the Jefferson Memorial, which was built after he died. You can work out the stupidity of your own statement.

And if you have to resort to name calling..........

[stevepenny]

It may be a coincidence...

I think that says all that needs to be said.

[azaziel01]

"the lucifier" it's not that anyone is insulting your intelligence

- I don't know you, you might be the chairperson at MENSA for all I know

But sometimes all these "facts" maybe coincidences - perhaps Dan Brown pointed at this in a very tongue in cheek way in the Lost Symbol.

chris

[thelucifer]

I think that says all that needs to be said.


"cannot but see" :rolleyes:


What does that mean to you exactly ??


Perhaps you should do as other masons have done with Akram, resort to insulting him, a Brother. :D

[stevepenny]

"cannot but see" :rolleyes:


What does that mean to you exactly ??


Perhaps you should do as other masons have done with Akram, resort to insulting him, a Brother. :D

Who is Akram?

And you haven't commented on how one end of the compasses ended up being aligned with a structure that wasn't even thought of let alone built when the city was being planned.

Coincidence means exactly that....

[thelucifer]

"the lucifier" it's not that anyone is insulting your intelligence

- I don't know you, you might be the chairperson at MENSA for all I know

But sometimes all these "facts" maybe coincidences - perhaps Dan Brown pointed at this in a very tongue in cheek way in the Lost Symbol.

chris

LOL
I wasnt talking about you.

Steve is insulting me.

I am the one who exposed the Cross and the Pendulum and much more.
I put this map together over 10 years ago.

So I dont give a shit about Dan.

[thelucifer]

Who is Akram?

A 33rd degree DC mason.

Let me guess, you know better than he does, right ?

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And you haven't commented on how one end of the compasses ended up being aligned with a structure that wasn't even thought of let alone built when the city was being planned.

Coincidence means exactly that....

The monument was put to the place/deign, not the design for the monument.

[stevepenny]

A 33rd degree DC mason.

Let me guess, you know better than he does, right ?
The monument was put to the place/deign, not the design for the monument.

The answer to your first question is yes I apparently do.

The answer to your second is that if you enquire with the National Park Service in the US you will very quickly discover that the Jefferson Memorial was always intended to be built just to the South of the axis on the national Mall.

Unfortunately the soft ground was unable to support the structure given the technical capabilities of the city engineers of the day. And so it was moved to it's current location.

In fact the MacMillan Commision never intended originally to build the memorial to Jefferson even though it had been suggested during his lifetime. As they stated at the time "the statues of the illustrious men of the nation, or whether the memory of some individual shall be honored by a monument of the first rank may be left to the future"

So you see thelucifer, your map is drawn as a result of a position that was unknown to anyone when the city was designed.

[kadosh]

Unveiling The Masonic Symbolism of Washington, DC - http://shop.esquare-online.com/product.sc?productId=2

[thelucifer]

The answer to your first question is yes I apparently do.

The answer to your second is that if you enquire with the National Park Service in the US you will very quickly discover that the Jefferson Memorial was always intended to be built just to the South of the axis on the national Mall.

Unfortunately the soft ground was unable to support the structure given the technical capabilities of the city engineers of the day. And so it was moved to it's current location.

In fact the MacMillan Commision never intended originally to build the memorial to Jefferson even though it had been suggested during his lifetime. As they stated at the time "the statues of the illustrious men of the nation, or whether the memory of some individual shall be honored by a monument of the first rank may be left to the future"

So you see thelucifer, your map is drawn as a result of a position that was unknown to anyone when the city was designed.


Huh ?
Youre talking about the Washington monument, and I have exposed that nonsense elsewhere as well.


"may be left to the future"
Thats what I said. with other words.

The monuments themselves are a non factor to the whole of the design, which is the Compasses,Square and Cross (the 3 great lights in masonry).

[1977]

This pic tells a story that's as dark as it gets, via moderns Freemasonry and Washington DC.
That's not a very good picture since it completely misses the owl!

[grandsecretary]

Huh ?
Youre talking about the Washington monument, and I have exposed that nonsense elsewhere as well.


"may be left to the future"
Thats what I said. with other words.

The monuments themselves are a non factor to the whole of the design, which is the Compasses,Square and Cross (the 3 great lights in masonry).

The Square, the Compasses and the Holy Bible. The three Great Lights in Freemasonry representing the presence of God. You can't even get that right.

[grandsecretary]

That's not a very good picture since it completely misses the owl!

Twit to who? :)

[stevepenny]

Huh ?
Youre talking about the Washington monument, and I have exposed that nonsense elsewhere as well.

No, the Washington Monument was to be built on the East of the axis of the National Mall.

Dont take my word for it, ask the National Park Service.

[thelucifer]

The Square, the Compasses and the Holy Bible. The three Great Lights in Freemasonry representing the presence of God. You can't even get that right.

The Cross and Bible represent the same thing, how many pics do I need to show showing either the Cross or the Bible with the Compasses and Square ??

There you go jumping in bed with the moderns again. :rolleyes:

Same old shit another day.

[stevepenny]

The Cross and Bible represent the same thing

??????????????????????????????

[thelucifer]

http://www.nintharch.com/2008/08/31/districtofcolumbia/

Right Worshipful Brother Akram Elias, Grand Master of Masons in the District of Columbia, produced a video dealing with this topic called, Unveiling the Masonic Symbolism of Washington, DC.

[azaziel01]

Maybe there is no great conspiracy!

Maybe all of this in in your head!

But then why apply conventional wisdom?

[stevepenny]

http://www.nintharch.com/2008/08/31/districtofcolumbia/

Right Worshipful Brother Akram Elias, Grand Master of Masons in the District of Columbia, produced a video dealing with this topic called, Unveiling the Masonic Symbolism of Washington, DC.

So let me get this straight.

The National Park Service say it isn't.

Akram Elias says it is.

Now who do you think is the more knowledgeable about monuments and parks in Washington DC.

No answer required, it's a rhetorical question.

[thelucifer]

So let me get this straight.

The National Park Service say it isn't.

Akram Elias says it is.

Now who do you think is the more knowledgeable about monuments and parks in Washington DC.

No answer required, it's a rhetorical question.

I never said anything about Akram talking about the placement of the Washington monument !!!

Quit trying to confuse my points/posts.

[thelucifer]

Maybe there is no great conspiracy!

Maybe all of this in in your head!

But then why apply conventional wisdom?

Arent you the one talking about not insulting others :rolleyes:


All in my head ? LOL

How insulting.

[thelucifer]

I showed darkness via the map and your responses have shown darkness in addition to that.


Great job guys.



Again, dont let me stop you.

[grandsecretary]

The Cross and Bible represent the same thing, how many pics do I need to show showing either the Cross or the Bible with the Compasses and Square ??

There you go jumping in bed with the moderns again. :rolleyes:

Same old shit another day.

I am afraid that you are quite wrong. The three Great Lights in Free Masonrie are the Square and Compasses and Holy Bible. It is very definitely NOT the Cross.

I am not jumping into bed with anyone, just giving you free advice. You are only 33.3% wrong, but wrong nonetheless. Wrong. :)

[thelucifer]

I am afraid that you are quite wrong. The three Great Lights in Free Masonrie are the Square and Compasses and Holy Bible. It is very definitely NOT the Cross.

I am not jumping into bed with anyone, just giving you free advice. You are only 33.3% wrong, but wrong nonetheless. Wrong. :)

Thats a hell of a lot better than any other mason has afforded me. :D

GS, I know the Bible is used on the alter.

As you have pointed out before, the Compasses and Square together represent God, the Bible and Cross to me basically represent the same thing.

As for DC, the Bible would not work well in the symbolism layout and so the Cross, which of course, fits exactly right.

[grandsecretary]

And I have seen the cross shape in DC, but I disagree with you over the square and compasses together, too.

Wrong shape.

It HAS to form a certain symbol OUT OF a square and compasses together, otherwise it does not have a Masonic meaning. It does not do so in your map.

[stevepenny]

I never said anything about Akram talking about the placement of the Washington monument !!!



Neither am I. You were the one that brought the subject up. Originally both monuments were to be placed together but they couldn't be because of the ground.

Let me spell this out for you in simple words.

When Washington DC was designed, it was always intended to build a memorial to either Thomas Jefferson or to a whole host of important individual, sort of a collection of statues.

Jefferson died years later and it was only after his death that the decision was taken to build a memorial specifically to him, but not in the place in which it was originally intended, for the reasons already stated.

So your line, which ends at the Jefferson Memorial, has no significance, and therefore nor does the assertion that it was designed to represent the compasses, because if the ground next to the National Mall had been firmer, then that's where the Jefferson Memorial would have been.

And if you have the compasses wrong, there is a strong case that the other occurences will also be wrong.

Just think about this for a minute. If you build a city on a grid like basis, there is an almost endless number of ways that lines can be drawn in order to convey some hidden meaning.

I'm not trying to say you are wholly wrong, but try opening your mind to facts, such as the birth of Zionism etc that rule out certain 'symbols' on your map.

Lets face it, if you contend that the Star of David is indicative of some Zionist plan on domination, just remember that Zionism only came about many many years after Washington was built.

I'll leave this one to you.

[thelucifer]

And I have seen the cross shape in DC, but I disagree with you over the square and compasses together, too.

Wrong shape.

It HAS to form a certain symbol OUT OF a square and compasses together, otherwise it does not have a Masonic meaning. It does not do so in your map.

There is no question the Compasses and Square are present in the layout, put there by masons, so what is going on there than GS ?


Funny how masons try to dispel the symbols and association with them in DC.

[thelucifer]

Neither am I. You were the one that brought the subject up. Originally both monuments were to be placed together but they couldn't be because of the ground.

Let me spell this out for you in simple words.

When Washington DC was designed, it was always intended to build a memorial to either Thomas Jefferson or to a whole host of important individual, sort of a collection of statues.

Jefferson died years later and it was only after his death that the decision was taken to build a memorial specifically to him, but not in the place in which it was originally intended, for the reasons already stated.

So your line, which ends at the Jefferson Memorial, has no significance, and therefore nor does the assertion that it was designed to represent the compasses, because if the ground next to the National Mall had been firmer, then that's where the Jefferson Memorial would have been.

And if you have the compasses wrong, there is a strong case that the other occurences will also be wrong.

Just think about this for a minute. If you build a city on a grid like basis, there is an almost endless number of ways that lines can be drawn in order to convey some hidden meaning.

I'm not trying to say you are wholly wrong, but try opening your mind to facts, such as the birth of Zionism etc that rule out certain 'symbols' on your map.

Lets face it, if you contend that the Star of David is indicative of some Zionist plan on domination, just remember that Zionism only came about many many years after Washington was built.

I'll leave this one to you.



So, Akram, Grand Master of Masons in the District of Columbia has it all wrong then when saying one "cannot help but see" the compasses and square ???

And he is not alone.


Just bleepin amazing.

Move on, nothing to see here. :rolleyes:

[lightgiver]

This thread is for Stewart Edwards to start the ball rolling as to the 'alledged' darkness within the Moderns form of Freemasonry.

Over to you Stewart!

Where is the Light in freemasonry,that's what I would like to know:confused:

[stevepenny]

So, Akram, Grand Master of Masons in the District of Columbia has it all wrong then when saying one "cannot help but see" the compasses and square ???

And he is not alone.


Just bleepin amazing.

Move on, nothing to see here. :rolleyes:

Then explain how your lline ends at the Jefferson Memorial and what is it's significance.

And yes, regarding the compasses Akram is wrong. Why do you think he might be right?

[kweli]

This thread is for Stewart Edwards to start the ball rolling as to the 'alledged' darkness within the Moderns form of Freemasonry.

Over to you Stewart!

You are unwittingly showing me the 'alledged' darkness in freemasonry by starting this very thread. You and kadosh seem to be bullying Stewart Edwards - Why? What harm has he done to you or your craft? Honest answers only please.

Dr Kadosh has already diagnosed Stewart as mentally ill, :rolleyes: so why hound someone that he (you've insinuated the same) believes to ill? Is this how you roll?

And wtf is this all about? (link below) I'm calling you out - you seem more confused than the guy you're attempting to belittle - just my opinion of course.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1058384613&postcount=88

[stevepenny]

You are unwittingly showing me the 'alledged' darkness in freemasonry by starting this very thread. You and kadosh seem to be bullying Stewart Edwards - Why? What harm has he done to you or your craft? Honest answers only please.

Nobody is bullying Stewart. He has made certain statements and we have asked him to provide proof.

He says he has a letter from the GS of GLoS. Not a problem, perhaps he has and perhaps he hasn't. As this letter allegedly makes certain statements I have asked him to prove it.

I have explained to Stewart that I am in a position to verify his claim, but to save time and effort can he provide the date. His comment was that it was in 2004/2005 or perhaps 2006. Now he has this letter in his possesion and all he has to do is look at it and read the date.......

When I ask him this, he accuses me of hounding him. He claims there is a darkness within Freemasonry; and he's made this claim more than once. He also claims to be the cure.

All i've asked in this thread is for Stewart to expand on what this supposed darkness is; and yet he now feels unable to answer.

And wtf is this all about? (link below) I'm calling you out - you seem more confused than the guy you're attempting to belittle - just my opinion of course.

I don't see the link. Calling me out on what exactly? My choice of flavour for Freemasonry has nothing to do with the issues over Stewart's reticense to engage in meaningfull debate nor is it the subject of the OP.

[kadosh]

As far as I am concerned if anyone makes allegations concerning Freemasonry without providing a shred of evidence then they can expect to be challenged about it. That is all. Regardless of who it is. Perhaps in future they will provide the supporting proof for any such messages and a full explanation about what they post here. Is that too much to expect? That way the number of questions asked by way of a reply will be reduced. Simple as that.

[stewart edwards]

I have explained to Stewart that I am in a position to verify his claimI wait with eager anticipation your confirmation that I have been telling the truth.



It is also worth remembering that everyone who reads this forum forms opinions on credibility, yours, mine, kwelis, everyone. Kweli has stated that in their opinion you have been bulling me. I rather suspect that others think the same.

Sooner or later you will come to realise that I have always written the truth. You may not like it, but such is, you forced it today.

The interesting bit is that you have put the GLoS into a potentially difficult diplomatic situation with fellow grand lodges. I cant wait to hear what the official explanation is - an administrative error perhaps?

[mike martin]

Film producer and Freemason, Akram Elias, 33rd Degree, designed a unique approach that unveils the Masonic symbolism hidden in the architecture, layout, and design of Washington, DC.


Elias cites theories that the city's streets themselves are laid out in the shape of secret Masonic signs.

"It may be a coincidence, but there are indications that are difficult to ignore,'' he said. Establishing the nation's capital, George Washington is said to have demanded that it be laid out in a symbolic square. ``It's fascinating. If you take an aerial view of Washington, you cannot but see the perfect square and the compass which are the universal symbols of Freemasonry, meaning rectitude and equality,'' he said.

Sounds familiar :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=643150&postcount=122
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=643709&postcount=136

Mike

[kweli]

Nobody is bullying Stewart.

I don't see the link. Calling me out on what exactly? My choice of flavour for Freemasonry has nothing to do with the issues over Stewart's reticense to engage in meaningfull debate nor is it the subject of the OP.

Nay lad, you are bullying, no denying it - read back what you've wrote.

You don't see the link? well here it is again just to remind you: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1058384613&postcount=88

[kweli]

As far as I am concerned if anyone makes allegations concerning Freemasonry without providing a shred of evidence then they can expect to be challenged about it. That is all. Regardless of who it is. Perhaps in future they will provide the supporting proof for any such messages and a full explanation about what they post here. Is that too much to expect? That way the number of questions asked by way of a reply will be reduced. Simple as that.

I'm not really concerned with what you're concerned with.
You come across as a very bitter and mean spirited man - no doubt you do have redeeming qualities but you've yet to show them around here. The following passage is from the UGLE website - do you adhere to these principals?

"Freemasonry instils in its members a moral and ethical approach to life: it seeks to reinforce thoughtfulness for others, kindness in the community, honesty in business, courtesy in society and fairness in all things. Members are urged to regard the interests of the family as paramount but, importantly, Freemasonry also teaches and practices concern for people, care for the less fortunate and help for those in need"


http://www.ugle.org.uk/what-is-masonry/

Laugh out loud! What a load of boll*cks!

[lightgiver]

You are unwittingly showing me the 'alledged' darkness in freemasonry by starting this very thread. You and kadosh seem to be bullying Stewart Edwards - Why? What harm has he done to you or your craft? Honest answers only please.

Dr Kadosh has already diagnosed Stewart as mentally ill, :rolleyes: so why hound someone that he (you've insinuated the same) believes to ill? Is this how you roll?

And wtf is this all about? (link below) I'm calling you out - you seem more confused than the guy you're attempting to belittle - just my opinion of course.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1058384613&postcount=88

Here Here,I see that Freemason light is shining bright in the darkness,the darkness Stewart speaks of is happening right before us.

They have ridiculed him on many occasions from my point of view also and is not very pleasant to see.

it is a pity.:(

[kweli]

Here Here,I see that Freemason light is shining bright in the darkness,the darkness Stewart speaks of is happening right before us.

They have ridiculed him on many occasions from my point of view also and is not very pleasant to see.

tis a pity.:(

Aye, it's a pity alright - men of such supposedly high standing belittling and hounding their fellow man - pisses me right off! I can't abide bullying of any sort. :(

[thelucifer]

Sounds familiar :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=643150&postcount=122
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=643709&postcount=136

Mike

LOL

Thats exactly what I thought with his responses, I thought of you right away. :D

I wondered how long it would take you to join in. :p


Same old denial shit another day. :cool:

[thelucifer]

I'm not really concerned with what you're concerned with.
You come across as a very bitter and mean spirited man - no doubt you do have redeeming qualities but you've yet to show them around here. The following passage is from the UGLE website - do you adhere to these principals?

"Freemasonry instils in its members a moral and ethical approach to life: it seeks to reinforce thoughtfulness for others, kindness in the community, honesty in business, courtesy in society and fairness in all things. Members are urged to regard the interests of the family as paramount but, importantly, Freemasonry also teaches and practices concern for people, care for the less fortunate and help for those in need"


http://www.ugle.org.uk/what-is-masonry/

Laugh out loud! What a load of boll*cks!

ROFLMAO
It truly is a sight to behold. ;)

[kweli]

LOL

Thats exactly what I thought with his responses, I thought of you right away. :D

I wondered how long it would take you to join in. :p


Same old denial shit another day. :cool:

Indeed. I've given up asking their opinions. Check out the denial in this thread:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86662&highlight=kweli&page=121

[kadosh]

I'm not really concerned with what you're concerned with.
I'm most certainly not concerned with what you're concerned with either.

[lightgiver]

I'm most certainly not concerned with what you're concerned with either.

Maybe you should be.:)

This link may help you Respect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[kweli]

I'm most certainly not concerned with what you're concerned with either.

Well I'm definitely not concerned that you're you're not corncerned with what I'm concerned with, tis no concern of mine! :(

[stevepenny]

Good Morning all,

As promised I have received a reply regarding Stewarts alledged letter. Due to a minor hiccup with the cat, I could not go to GL, so sent an email to my trusted source. Rather than go into any long winded explanation I will post the email. As it contains a non-public email address and some individual names I have edited it.


Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:23:03
From: **********@*******************
Subject: Re: Hiya
To: steve.penny@live.co.uk

Hi Stevie,

Sorry to hear about the cat. I spoke to ***** for you, ***** ***** has got the minutes and he will give them to you on Friday at **********.

I tried my best with your query but we only keep general correspondence files for a maximum of two years. I have the records for mail in and out for that period and have four letters addressed to a Mr Edwards. These records do not show forenames or addresses and the subject in each case was 'With thanks'. I cannot unfortunately confirm whether any of these was sent to your Stewart Edwards. I've tried **** and ******** records as well but nothing. Sorry. Do I still get a coffee? LOL.

I asked ****** about your ******* Council *** ******* Office Bearers list. He's asked me to tell you that he will discuss this with you at the next Provincial meeting on the 3rd. He also asked me to remind you that he needs to talk to you about Chapter before the 3rd. He thinks you are avoiding him.

Anyway, that's me finished for the day. Me and ******** are going to TGI Fridays on the way home so it might be a late one.

This will cost you a skiny latte and a custard slice........

Karen

From: Steve Penny <steve.penny@live.co.uk>
To: **********@********************
Sent: Tue, 10 November, 2009 15:49:54
Subject: Hiya

Hi Karen,

I was hoping to get up the library this evening to see **** about the ********* Minutes; can you please give him my apologies as I need to get home to sort out yet another feline crisis.

Can I pretty please ask a favour. Can you look in the GS's files to see if you can find a letter from one Stewart Edwards. I dont know the contents or the subject but I believe the writer was offering advice.

I don't think it will be in ***** files but you might try ***** or *****. I don't know the date either but certainly between 2003 and 2005 would seem to be the right timeframe.

I'm sending the request this way as I don't think uncle ***** will be too happy if he thinks you're giving out state secrets. Oh, and while you're at it, can you ask ***** if he has the list of the *********************that I asked him for.

Thanks honey - lets do coffee in Starbucks one afternoon.

Steve


Please ignore the bit in bold, that is for the benefit of another forum member who asked a question.

So Stewart, no confirmation either way; however on the balance of probability I will conceed that a letter may have been written to you,and on that basis I MOST HUMBLY APOLOGIES.

So now the letter subject is closed, perhaps we can return to the subject of Masonic Darkness. Unfortunately Kweli seems to think that forcing this subject is darkness personified. My issue is that I do not see a darkness, and so when it is suggested that a darkness exists I am bound to enquire as to it's nature.

I wont press the issue as I don't have the energy, and I don't need any more grief from 'Nay Nay Mr Wilkes'. :D

[stewart edwards]

the darkness Stewart speaks of is happening right before us.Kerching. When you talk to masons in person you find that they can talk about about the darker side of the fraternity - egos, politics, etc, but few appear to have the courage to do anything about it. It just seems to be one of those things that is accepted and put up with.

I have sat down and corresponded with a handful of broken or lost men that the masonic system has failed and it is heartwrenching. The public face doesnt hide the hidden truth.

I have always accepted that I have only spoken to a tiny percentage of masons and ex masons. Some masons tell me that what I have seen and experienced is not representative, others have suggested that it is the tip of the iceberg. Either way it should not happen.

They have ridiculed him on many occasions from my point of view also and is not very pleasant to see.

it is a pity.:(Indeed it is a pity, but it is nothing new, I have experienced it ever since I started to get involved with the masonic world. Each year the faces may change, but the pattern remains. If you think what I have experienced here is bad you should have read the sequence of events that led me, with the site owners kind assistance, to removing all traces on my name from the forum that Mike is a moderator of (you brought this up Mike in a post yesterday). I was so disgusted at the behaviour of some masons that I simply did not want my name associated with the forum any more. The site owners kindly agreed to delete it for me.

Anyhow some of the masons here have brought the matter to a head so in a way they should be thanked.

1. The GLoS now has to get out of a sticky political situation that even I have tried to avoid since the letter was sent to me all those years ago (until pushed yesterday I hadn't disclosed the GL concerned outwith the lodge environment I mentioned). But yesterday the right buttons were pushed, which is a good learning exercise for me.

2. After sleeping on it I do now think that it would be a good idea for me to write to several Grand Lodges making a formal complaint, citing examples and evidince over the past decade. I doubt that it would make any difference to what has happened here yesterday, but it may force thought at the Grand Lodge level as to the dark effects of the actions of some of their members in the wider world. And that could lead to less of it in the future. But equally I accept that it could simply be ignored. I will reflect further on this until the end of the year but I may start putting this togther in the new year.

There are some good esoteric lessons in all of this.

[stewart edwards]

Steve

Thank you and your lady and even your uncle. If your uncle happens to be the Grand Secretary and would like a copy get him to write to me he has my address.(I bet it comes Dear Mr Edwards not Dear Brother Edwards)


(I amended this as GLoS have said above that the letter to Edwards were subject "with thanks" and I initially read this as signed off "with thanks" which is wasnt)

[stevepenny]

Steve

Thank you and your lady and even your uncle. I can assure you that it wasnt signed "with Thanks". If your uncle happens to be the Grand Secretary and would like a copy get him to write to me he has my address.

Stewart,

'Uncle' is a name that I use for the Grand Master Mason, he is not my uncle. I call him Uncle Charlie, but not to his face.

The comment from Karen was not that the four letters were signed 'with thanks', but that was the subject line recorded on the correspondence list. I believe its a generic title used for all non-specific posts.

The fact that our GS may or may not have called you Brother really doesn't concern me. I was just trying to establish credibility.

[stewart edwards]

The fact that our GS may or may not have called you Brother really doesn't concern me. I was just trying to establish credibility.Hopefully you have now. If not the new year may do that.

[stevepenny]

Hopefully you have now. If not the new year may do that.

Stewart, I have conceeded that there is no proof either way as the records do not show to which Mr Edwards these letters were written. The apology was given on the basis that I cannot prove that this letter was not written, and that of course is the correct thing to do.

In my opinion you have not established anything. And on that basis; and your reluctance to comment on the 'Darkness' I have decided not to comment on this matter any further; and not to communicate with you on any matter in the future. Please do not PM or email, as these will also be ignored.

[stewart edwards]

Stewart, I have conceeded that there is no proof either way as the records do not show to which Mr Edwards these letters were written. The apology was given on the basis that I cannot prove that this letter was not written, and that of course is the correct thing to do.

In my opinion you have not established anything. And on that basis; and your reluctance to comment on the 'Darkness' I have decided not to comment on this matter any further; and not to communicate with you on any matter in the future. Please do not PM or email, as these will also be ignored.No problem.

Just remember it was you who forced the issue of trying to disprove me. I have no need to prove anything. I have the letter. Some of your brothers have handled it and your Grand Secretary knows he wrote it. If it is no longer in the GLoS system that is not my problem. As I say if the Grand Secretary would like me to supply him with a copy he just needs to ask. He has my address.

He may be getting a copy returned to him with a bundle of other documents next year anyway, if I do decide to make a complaint to several Grand Lodges about masonic behaviour over the past decade.

[informationtransit]

Ever had an original thought of your own?

Hi Steve

That is quite a question to direct towards someone! I hope you don't think i'm being picky... if so, it's unintentional as i recently asked myself the same question and it makes me come over all (shudder)...Philosophical:)

Maybe this question should be a thread?

Would we be able to trace the origin of an Original Thought?

Hmmm

[stevepenny]

Ever had an original thought of your own?

Hi Steve

That is quite a question to direct towards someone! I hope you don't think i'm being picky... if so, it's unintentional as i recently asked myself the same question and it makes me come over all (shudder)...Philosophical:)

Maybe this question should be a thread?

Would we be able to trace the origin of an Original Thought?

Hmmm

Hi,

I would have thought that original thought started with Eve when she elected to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Just a thought

[informationtransit]

Hi,

I would have thought that original thought started with Eve when she elected to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Just a thought

Hi Steve

Cheers for the reply!

I think the "Original Thought" question should not hijack your thread, so if it is ok by you, i will start it as a separate thread, that, hopefully you can further contribute towards, i just don't know where to place it on the forum.

Anyways I'll figure it out.

I personally... could read a number of interpretations to the reply you gave... on an academic, or belief level... but, what part or role does Lilith play within the idea of Eve electing to eat from the apple?

Steve, this is a genuine question, as the only Bible i have read, is "The Other Bible" Edited by Willis Barnstone, I should read more of the Bible.
Typically for me i start with the alternate view, rather than the original...no pun intended.

Take it easy

[stevepenny]

Hi Steve

Cheers for the reply!

I think the "Original Thought" question should not hijack your thread, so if it is ok by you, i will start it as a separate thread, that, hopefully you can further contribute towards, i just don't know where to place it on the forum.

Anyways I'll figure it out.

Why not stick it in the religion section, or discuss it here if you want to. The thread isn't going anywhere else.

The subject is a very large bucket of worms.....you know you want to take the lid off :D:D:D

And as for Lilith......well that's a whole different argument; but remember she does not feature in the book of Genesis. She first appears is Ishiah.

[hatshepsut]

Hi,

I would have thought that original thought started with Eve when she elected to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Just a thought


So why is it that only males know anything - according to you - while women have only invalid opinions.


Well?

[stevepenny]

So why is it that only males know anything - according to you - while women have only invalid opinions.


Well?

You just don't give up do you. Eve had the first truly independent thought. I have never said that only males know anything. If you want a fight you're in the wrong thread.