Intellectual Materialism

[unenlightened_waffle]

My first post! Hello people! :)

The question I would like is do you think that most knowledge is essentially useless?

Let me explain a little more....

I know it seems a strange thing to say but is it not experiencing that is the key rather than trying to prove people wrong in transitory arguments, I have come to the conclusion that some people could read thousands of books on varying topics and may become a fountain of knowledge for many subjects but if in the end we have access to the infinite any way, what is the point? unless you learn something that will change your way of living from the knowledge?

Things like secret society's, mystery schools, religion etc... Are they but a veil to encourage people to improve from experiences and put people in touch with the nature of symbolism within us?

We are taught from a young age in the west to remember this and that, so we can be like parrots, but to what end. Unless you think for yourself at some point rather than reading Dave and Bob's idea's and agreeing with Bob you do not truly learn?

I was just reading a few posts on other threads and it seemed to go back to the usual slanging matches, similar to that of the BBC 606 forums. It all seemed a little pointless.

[pegcityevolve]

"unless you learn something that will change your way of living from the knowledge?"

I've came across a lot of this knowledge. :):(

[rowan22]

My first post! Hello people! :)

The question I would like is do you think that most knowledge is essentially useless?

Let me explain a little more....

I know it seems a strange thing to say but is it not experiencing that is the key rather than trying to prove people wrong in transitory arguments, I have come to the conclusion that some people could read thousands of books on varying topics and may become a fountain of knowledge for many subjects but if in the end we have access to the infinite any way, what is the point? unless you learn something that will change your way of living from the knowledge?

Things like secret society's, mystery schools, religion etc... Are they but a veil to encourage people to improve from experiences and put people in touch with the nature of symbolism within us?

We are taught from a young age in the west to remember this and that, so we can be like parrots, but to what end. Unless you think for yourself at some point rather than reading Dave and Bob's idea's and agreeing with Bob you do not truly learn?

I was just reading a few posts on other threads and it seemed to go back to the usual slanging matches, similar to that of the BBC 606 forums. It all seemed a little pointless.


Hello U.W. Nice to meet you.

I suppose it depends on the type of knowledge you are interested in gaining. I agree with much of what you see. I have never really understood the point of your typical Stephen Fry type. A mind crammed full of absolutely useless twaddle!

I personally feel that if it sets you free it is worthwhile. And in that I don’t believe tyranny of any sort really sets anyone free. So the best choices we can make I.M.O are about what can actually be done to cross the line between who we would like to think we are and the reality.

This seems useful and to dispense with all the external control our culture seems keen to impose on us. Ultimately I believe it is up to each of us to set ourselves free, a bit trite but free your mind and your arse will follow kind of idea.

[unenlightened_waffle]

Hello U.W. Nice to meet you.

I suppose it depends on the type of knowledge you are interested in gaining. I agree with much of what you see. I have never really understood the point of your typical Stephen Fry type. A mind crammed full of absolutely useless twaddle!

I personally feel that if it sets you free it is worthwhile. And in that I don’t believe tyranny of any sort really sets anyone free. So the best choices we can make I.M.O are about what can actually be done to cross the line between who we would like to think we are and the reality.

This seems useful and to dispense with all the external control our culture seems keen to impose on us. Ultimately I believe it is up to each of us to set ourselves free, a bit trite but free your mind and your arse will follow kind of idea.

Nice meet you too...

Ha, a good way to look at it indeed!

I gave up trying to convince people of the way to freedom. It is up to people to change and it is very difficult and completely painful, especially at the start, so tough that I try not to suggest it nowadays. I believe it is a journey that only you and fate can take, sadly I don't see it is a group thing, unless it is the group of humanity!

I read a book by Samual Aun Weon (sp??), a gnostic book, whether the information in his books are true or not is up for debate but one of the things that he says is that in the spiritual world there are masters who have never been taught any information and have come to experience spiritual mastery by themselves through meditation.

I know alot of knowledge has come my way that has helped me, but I am one who likes to 'live' my books if that makes any sense. I see reading just to spout it off like computer is a bit pointless. Like the Fry's of this world.

[rowan22]

Nice meet you too...

Ha, a good way to look at it indeed!

I gave up trying to convince people of the way to freedom. It is up to people to change and it is very difficult and completely painful, especially at the start, so tough that I try not to suggest it nowadays. I believe it is a journey that only you and fate can take, sadly I don't see it is a group thing, unless it is the group of humanity!

I read a book by Samual Aun Weon (sp??), a gnostic book, whether the information in his books are true or not is up for debate but one of the things that he says is that in the spiritual world there are masters who have never been taught any information and have come to experience spiritual mastery by themselves through meditation.

I know alot of knowledge has come my way that has helped me, but I am one who likes to 'live' my books if that makes any sense. I see reading just to spout it off like computer is a bit pointless. Like the Fry's of this world.


That seems to me to be the real trouble with the way we are "edu/indoctrinated" doesn't it? We tend to be taught what to think rather than how to think don’t we?

You are supposed to wade through the teachings and perceptions of the "learned" but how many are relating what they hear to what they themselves have experienced and can actively relate to?

I just feel totally like a fraud if my own experience isn't in sinc with what I'm reading. I can abstract with the best of them and pontificate about quantum singularity and the road to enlightenment. But at the end of the day I think if we were sat in the local having a pint would you be able to listen and (hear) my feelings, without feeling the need to rationalise them away or at the other extreme be so disconnected from common sense that we can share no ground on which to relate to one another.

I share your belief that it all must be lived. In the smallest of things which are actually the most important. Because in those things, we show who we really are. And not the (although interesting) words of someone else that have no simple symmetry with who we actually are.

It's definatey a ride we have to embark on alone.

[lyghtkynge]

I read a book by Samual Aun Weon (sp??), a gnostic book, whether the information in his books are true or not is up for debate but one of the things that he says is that in the spiritual world there are masters who have never been taught any information and have come to experience spiritual mastery by themselves through meditation.


Meditation, being the Stillness Center Activation, is Truly the Opening to Grace.

Now, don't let me put you off here: having experienced spontaneous cosmic consciousness (OMniscience), I assure you what you read in that book was based on The Real; Truth, and not fantasy.

Spiritual Knowing Becomes Wisdom, the Embodiment of Knowledge, or Intelligence, and does not need books. It Knows, Directly. Some call this Intuition, the Royal Road, but it has its drawbacks upon the plane of materiality: it leaves you with focusing upon that which is Real, and not that which is the reflected Unreal, which is what materiality and its associated 'knowledges' are about...hence, you will be out of sinc with your fellow humans, a fish out of water.

Like the other poster just said, it depends 'what you're looking for.' You can seek life in a corpse (like science, theology, philosophy), or Become One via Awareness of One Self, the next step beyond Self-Awareness, humanity's current position.

Put more succinctly, either choose the grave or choose the Capstone (Being-Presence). If you choose the Capstone, the Great Mystery will Unfold, and the two Will become One (reason & intuition) as Wisdom, the Embodiment of Perfection.

You can see what the herd has chosen, and its results.

However, let me add this requisite Caution for such choice: Death is the End Result of Both Paths/Choices. One is chained to The Wheel of Life/Reincarnation (Repeat lessons, please); the other is Unchained Freedom (leave all materiality behind forever...ready?). The Sun-God and Dragon Goddess will Guide the Way, if so, to become The Phoenix, FireBird of Death and ReBirth....so fast you can't even blink: Self-ReGenerator of the Universal All.

There will be a Test, of course, to achieve this. It's called the 2nd Death (Final)...should mention that. And No Guarantees (sorry!).

Or, you can read a book! And then, another one, and discuss! Eternally, over & over, and
http://www.visionarymusic.com/newsletters/images/amoraea/paintFutureL.jpghttp://afeatheradrift.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/a_spiritual_evolution.jpg

[unenlightened_waffle]

That seems to me to be the real trouble with the way we are "edu/indoctrinated" doesn't it? We tend to be taught what to think rather than how to think don’t we?

You are supposed to wade through the teachings and perceptions of the "learned" but how many are relating what they hear to what they themselves have experienced and can actively relate to?

I just feel totally like a fraud if my own experience isn't in sinc with what I'm reading. I can abstract with the best of them and pontificate about quantum singularity and the road to enlightenment. But at the end of the day I think if we were sat in the local having a pint would you be able to listen and (hear) my feelings, without feeling the need to rationalise them away or at the other extreme be so disconnected from common sense that we can share no ground on which to relate to one another.

I share your belief that it all must be lived. In the smallest of things which are actually the most important. Because in those things, we show who we really are. And not the (although interesting) words of someone else that have no simple symmetry with who we actually are.

It's definatey a ride we have to embark on alone.

I personally did not see how indoctrinated I was until reflecting on a conversation I had about drugs, where I expressed (what I thought were) my feelings on how they should be legalised to take the criminal element out of society. As I have never taken any 'hard' drugs I cannot really talk about addiction and the effects of them. That does not mean I would take them to experience them, but realising that I am not in a good position to comment and that I am just regurgitating second hand ideas was my realisation.

It also showed me how we are all encouraged to reflect views of other people on many subjects that we have not lived. We can live how we believe is best, but if we do not comtemplate what we believe then our lifestyles can be floored. When helping/commenting on other peoples problems if we have not lived it in some way, it might be a better idea to keep quiet.... although easier said than done!

It is interesting you talk about syncing with what you are reading, I tend to have a feeling that certain books/films/people/experiences come at the right moment for us to learn one lesson or another, but when you do things for vain knowledge it becomes a hindrance on your growth.

I learned from Steiner that if we were sat down having a drink in a pub the way you should listen is without forming an opinion or agreeing or disagreeing with your point, in this way you can talk on any subject. I find listening this way helps me to form a kind of empathy with the other persons ideas and the conversation flows. It is never about right or wrong but shades of grey, which through discussion we may not agree with each other but we will have elevated our ideas on a certain topic

I took me a while to think that way about conversations and I have by no means managed to do it in all my conversations but I seem to get on with people better and have a deeper respect for them. Especially when I realise that their prejudices or intolerance's are/have been in me in some form or another.

[unenlightened_waffle]

Meditation, being the Stillness Center Activation, is Truly the [Opening to FONT="Times New Roman"]Grace[/FONT].

Now, don't let me put you off here: having experienced spontaneous cosmic consciousness (OMniscience), I assure you what you read in that book was based on The Real; Truth, and not fantasy.

Spiritual Knowing Becomes Wisdom, the Embodiment of Knowledge, or Intelligence, and does not need books. It Knows, Directly. Some call this Intuition, the Royal Road, but it has its drawbacks upon the plane of materiality: it leaves you with focusing upon that which is Real, and not that which is the reflected Unreal, which is what materiality and its associated 'knowledges' are about...hence, you will be out of sinc with your fellow humans, a fish out of water.

Like the other poster just said, it depends 'what you're looking for.' You can seek life in a corpse (like science, theology, philosophy), or Become One via Awareness of One Self, the next step beyond Self-Awareness, humanity's current position.

Put more succinctly, either choose the grave or choose the Capstone (Being-Presence). If you choose the Capstone, the Great Mystery will Unfold, and the two Will become One (reason & intuition) as Wisdom, the Embodiment of Perfection.

You can see what the herd has chosen, and its results.

However, let me add this requisite Caution for such choice: Death is the End Result of Both Paths/Choices. One is chained to The Wheel of Life/Reincarnation (Repeat lessons, please); the other is Unchained Freedom (leave all materiality behind forever...ready?). The Sun-God and Dragon Goddess will Guide the Way, if so, to become The Phoenix, FireBird of Death and ReBirth....so fast you can't even blink: Self-ReGenerator of the Universal All.

There will be a Test, of course, to achieve this. It's called the 2nd Death (Final)...should mention that. And No Guarantees (sorry!).

Or, you can read a book! And then, another one, and discuss! Eternally, over & over, and
http://www.visionarymusic.com/newsletters/images/amoraea/paintFutureL.jpghttp://afeatheradrift.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/a_spiritual_evolution.jpg

Very deep! But I will try to keep up with you.

I think if you look at the Buddhist perspective the idea of keeping one fault with you at all times to keep the saga of reincarnation out of true love for the people who you know (Bodhisattva), so you can go through live again and again helping other people. Or you can go to nirvana and live in ultimate bliss. Or you can live in ignorance.

Although I feel, if I eventually achieve this type of wisdom, I may be more in touch with people on a deeper level rather than a fish out of water, I will have deep empathy and compassion which will make me feel more like a fish who can swim and walk on land (if that makes any sense) but I may be wrong.

I personally and have always wanted to know why, and now coming to the conclusion that it is to learn how to love all, I am feeling that there is only one road and I am still not sure where it will lead... but it will be fun to find out.

On a note about intuition I believed the gnostic book as I felt he was telling the truth, where as i attempted to read a book called 'Living in the Heart' by a guy called Drumvalow Mechizidech (sp?) and after about 10 pages I just had to put it down as I thought it was just lies... although again I may be wrong.

Having my first death is an experience I will need to prepare for. I have a feeling I am long way off any sort of illumination so I have a lot of time to decide and understand both ways.

[rowan22]

I personally did not see how indoctrinated I was until reflecting on a conversation I had about drugs, where I expressed (what I thought were) my feelings on how they should be legalised to take the criminal element out of society. As I have never taken any 'hard' drugs I cannot really talk about addiction and the effects of them. That does not mean I would take them to experience them, but realising that I am not in a good position to comment and that I am just regurgitating second hand ideas was my realisation.

It also showed me how we are all encouraged to reflect views of other people on many subjects that we have not lived. We can live how we believe is best, but if we do not comtemplate what we believe then our lifestyles can be floored. When helping/commenting on other peoples problems if we have not lived it in some way, it might be a better idea to keep quiet.... although easier said than done!

It is interesting you talk about syncing with what you are reading, I tend to have a feeling that certain books/films/people/experiences come at the right moment for us to learn one lesson or another, but when you do things for vain knowledge it becomes a hindrance on your growth.

I learned from Steiner that if we were sat down having a drink in a pub the way you should listen is without forming an opinion or agreeing or disagreeing with your point, in this way you can talk on any subject. I find listening this way helps me to form a kind of empathy with the other persons ideas and the conversation flows. It is never about right or wrong but shades of grey, which through discussion we may not agree with each other but we will have elevated our ideas on a certain topic

I took me a while to think that way about conversations and I have by no means managed to do it in all my conversations but I seem to get on with people better and have a deeper respect for them. Especially when I realise that their prejudices or intolerance's are/have been in me in some form or another.

I really enjoyed reading that thanks:)

I totally agree, It just feels right doesn't it? I'm not decrying any perspective, but leaving aside the explanations and going straight for the "meaning" as it were just makes more sense to me. Debating is like having a massive Christmas dinner, it looks great but you know you will be left with loads of indigestible lumps in your system. Precisely for the reasons you point to. Our culture should embrace the Steiner way of being.

We are far too concerned in our education system with testing and cognitive milestones, whilst rushing straight past most of the Psychological research which shows how much better kids do when they are given adequate emotionally based learning experiences as a foundation.

Allowing people to find out who they are and how they feel has been shown in country after country to just work better! Why the denial of this? Why when organic learning styles result in free thinking individuals who are creative and analytically able would you not use them?

The issue just strikes me as being one of common sense. That and (real) human rights, not the double speak of inclusion that actually excludes!

As you say, empathy is the key. Learning to talk less and truly listen more. We don’t let people experience how to actually (hear) one another either do we? The constant emphasis on testing and league tables is just a symptom of the deeper failure of valuing of people for their intrinsic worth.

If we enabled people to understand their own unique take on life, and from that showed them the empathy which is reflective of that understanding, we would develop an education system that actually allowed people to develop their own unique ability and not try and turn a silk purse into a sows ear!

This obsession with external conditions of worth is just a disease if you ask me. A consumer lead replacement of needs with wants.

[rowan22]

Meditation, being the Stillness Center Activation, is Truly the Opening to Grace.

Now, don't let me put you off here: having experienced spontaneous cosmic consciousness (OMniscience), I assure you what you read in that book was based on The Real; Truth, and not fantasy.

Spiritual Knowing Becomes Wisdom, the Embodiment of Knowledge, or Intelligence, and does not need books. It Knows, Directly. Some call this Intuition, the Royal Road, but it has its drawbacks upon the plane of materiality: it leaves you with focusing upon that which is Real, and not that which is the reflected Unreal, which is what materiality and its associated 'knowledges' are about...hence, you will be out of sinc with your fellow humans, a fish out of water.

Like the other poster just said, it depends 'what you're looking for.' You can seek life in a corpse (like science, theology, philosophy), or Become One via Awareness of One Self, the next step beyond Self-Awareness, humanity's current position.

Put more succinctly, either choose the grave or choose the Capstone (Being-Presence). If you choose the Capstone, the Great Mystery will Unfold, and the two Will become One (reason & intuition) as Wisdom, the Embodiment of Perfection.

You can see what the herd has chosen, and its results.

However, let me add this requisite Caution for such choice: Death is the End Result of Both Paths/Choices. One is chained to The Wheel of Life/Reincarnation (Repeat lessons, please); the other is Unchained Freedom (leave all materiality behind forever...ready?). The Sun-God and Dragon Goddess will Guide the Way, if so, to become The Phoenix, FireBird of Death and ReBirth....so fast you can't even blink: Self-ReGenerator of the Universal All.

There will be a Test, of course, to achieve this. It's called the 2nd Death (Final)...should mention that. And No Guarantees (sorry!).

Or, you can read a book! And then, another one, and discuss! Eternally, over & over, and
http://www.visionarymusic.com/newsletters/images/amoraea/paintFutureL.jpghttp://afeatheradrift.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/a_spiritual_evolution.jpg

I am a great believer in the Philosophy of the "open heart and open mind". I follow both and try to keep connected to the truth of experience as it unfolds in front of me.

Kind of like "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" idea. You don’t have to know how to build a motorbike to enjoy riding it. But it would be foolish to set out on a journey and not have enough knowledge/skill to keep it running smoothly. Always an analogy I really like.:)

Something like opening the door for someone, is fast becoming a subversive act, and I like the fact that it generally creates something very strong in that moment. But also about standing up for what you believe in. I differ from the Zen view in that much. I don’t think we should transcend pain, rather feel it and object to it where its presence is due to tyranny.

[unenlightened_waffle]

I really enjoyed reading that thanks:)

I totally agree, It just feels right doesn't it? I'm not decrying any perspective, but leaving aside the explanations and going straight for the "meaning" as it were just makes more sense to me. Debating is like having a massive Christmas dinner, it looks great but you know you will be left with loads of indigestible lumps in your system. Precisely for the reasons you point to. Our culture should embrace the Steiner way of being.

We are far too concerned in our education system with testing and cognitive milestones, whilst rushing straight past most of the Psychological research which shows how much better kids do when they are given adequate emotionally based learning experiences as a foundation.

Allowing people to find out who they are and how they feel has been shown in country after country to just work better! Why the denial of this? Why when organic learning styles result in free thinking individuals who are creative and analytically able would you not use them?

The issue just strikes me as being one of common sense. That and (real) human rights, not the double speak of inclusion that actually excludes!

As you say, empathy is the key. Learning to talk less and truly listen more. We don’t let people experience how to actually (hear) one another either do we? The constant emphasis on testing and league tables is just a symptom of the deeper failure of valuing of people for their intrinsic worth.

If we enabled people to understand their own unique take on life, and from that showed them the empathy which is reflective of that understanding, we would develop an education system that actually allowed people to develop their own unique ability and not try and turn a silk purse into a sows ear!

This obsession with external conditions of worth is just a disease if you ask me. A consumer lead replacement of needs with wants.

Fantastic analogy about christmas dinner, is that not the way with virtually everything!

Thanks for the compliment, it is things like that which should be a basis of society. Like you say in your other post, simple friendly acts such as holding the door out for people or a 'good morning' to people is the start of how things should be.

My old boss who now sits across the way bought me a little tea holder today and it was free with a box of tea and I thought that is it, she can be quite nasty sometimes to other people behind there backs but things like that show that everyone has that spark of love.... It picked me up for most of the day.

Going back to the education thing it is daft when you step back and have a look at it, you are forced into competitiveness and ambition by grades and certificates from all corners, you go to school to listen to your teachers tell you how you need to splurt random rubbish onto a page for a letter? Then you get home for your parents to do the same, so you can get a god awful job and a nice car and house with 2.5 children and bring them into the world to suffer the same waste of time.

What is the point? This guy explains it better than me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njG7p6CSbCU

Sadly there a very few people out there who can say what they really feel, for fear of being criticized or singled out. I will end this on a positive note, it is nice to talk to someone who actually has something to say that I enjoy reading :)

[nioz]

Knowledge talks, Wisdom knows

You can read thousands of books, but what will it change,
the fact that you can store 'data' correctfully and remember it
doesn't change you.

And you're right, we live in a time that we are covered and bombarded with veils on so many levels that it seems we can't grasp the truth.

The key is within yourselve

know yourselve and you know the rest.

[rowan22]

Fantastic analogy about christmas dinner, is that not the way with virtually everything!

Thanks for the compliment, it is things like that which should be a basis of society. Like you say in your other post, simple friendly acts such as holding the door out for people or a 'good morning' to people is the start of how things should be.

My old boss who now sits across the way bought me a little tea holder today and it was free with a box of tea and I thought that is it, she can be quite nasty sometimes to other people behind there backs but things like that show that everyone has that spark of love.... It picked me up for most of the day.

Going back to the education thing it is daft when you step back and have a look at it, you are forced into competitiveness and ambition by grades and certificates from all corners, you go to school to listen to your teachers tell you how you need to splurt random rubbish onto a page for a letter? Then you get home for your parents to do the same, so you can get a god awful job and a nice car and house with 2.5 children and bring them into the world to suffer the same waste of time.

What is the point? This guy explains it better than me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njG7p6CSbCU

Sadly there a very few people out there who can say what they really feel, for fear of being criticized or singled out. I will end this on a positive note, it is nice to talk to someone who actually has something to say that I enjoy reading :)


Your welcome you obviously write from the heart its nice to read. I think we often refer to courtesy and empathy as though they are some sort of minor detail. The truth is for me, that far from being at the edges of what people call “spirituality” they are actually the main determinant of it, on every level and in every way.

One of my favourite films is Les Miserable. Just because it shows central to its message the importance of believing that people are at heart good and able to feel the reality of sincerity and love. I don’t think its “cheesy” or naïve. I think we are supposed to think it is, and not talk about it directly for fear of being thought so. People often don’t realise that it is suffering generally which shows people the importance of empathy and realness. Having suffered myself and felt how distraught you can be at the absence of an understanding person to hear how you feel, I have committed myself to maintaining as much as is possible the process that allows me to be authentic and real.

This sometimes means that I am frankly, not very nice to be around. The world is cruel in places and telling myself that this is alright is just not how it feels at times. So the price I pay is the pain and anger which the heart says is a realistic reflection of what I see. Life should be about how it is not how we are told it should be.

The upside is, that this also means that since I’m open to suffering. I am also open to the full range of emotion and can prove my own life’s worth to myself based on no more than my own living of it.

Something which the system just doesn’t reward does it? Your not supposed to find your own inner sense of value are you? As you say and John Lennon, what a genius that man was!

“Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all”

Not surprising is when as you say all you ever hear is “jump through this hoop”. Whether purposefully or not, the result is the same. Dissociated misery, whose pain becomes the enemy and an anger at our own humanity for feeling it. The truth is within us isn’t it? Just waiting for someone to show us a spark of decency.

I could have chosen any line from working class hero to totally be in sympathy with what we both mean. But I love this track for its “simple” way of putting a smile in my eyes. Thanks for your own kind words.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITZKqbeQixI&feature=PlayList&p=15B457907969D53B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=49

And this one is an all time theme tune!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3pltmw6cmI

[rowan22]

Knowledge talks, Wisdom knows

You can read thousands of books, but what will it change,
the fact that you can store 'data' correctfully and remember it
doesn't change you.

And you're right, we live in a time that we are covered and bombarded with veils on so many levels that it seems we can't grasp the truth.

The key is within yourselve

know yourselve and you know the rest.


Very true!

[dusthead]

My first post! Hello people! :)

The question I would like is do you think that most knowledge is essentially useless?

Let me explain a little more....

I know it seems a strange thing to say but is it not experiencing that is the key rather than trying to prove people wrong in transitory arguments, I have come to the conclusion that some people could read thousands of books on varying topics and may become a fountain of knowledge for many subjects but if in the end we have access to the infinite any way, what is the point? unless you learn something that will change your way of living from the knowledge?

Things like secret society's, mystery schools, religion etc... Are they but a veil to encourage people to improve from experiences and put people in touch with the nature of symbolism within us?

We are taught from a young age in the west to remember this and that, so we can be like parrots, but to what end. Unless you think for yourself at some point rather than reading Dave and Bob's idea's and agreeing with Bob you do not truly learn?

I was just reading a few posts on other threads and it seemed to go back to the usual slanging matches, similar to that of the BBC 606 forums. It all seemed a little pointless.

Excellent post. I agree with you.

In my experience of education I learned more from interaction with others than the accumulation of knowledge. I find that actual physical and mental life experience has far more impact than simply being able to memorise a set of facts & figures. My relationships with other students and the pursuit of team-based activities were far more valuable than simply learning rules in parrot-fashion. Arguably, real life experiences are a better guide for one's personal sense of right & wrong, as well as providing a platform on which wisdom can be built. This also encourages common sense, objectivity, empathy and diplomacy.

I would not dare to claim that I have all the above traits instilled in my personality, but I have certainly been shown how these traits may be best achieved through life experience.

Many of the arguments here are static and they have been raging for years. One is forced to wonder what could be achieved on this forum if people stopped arguing about trivia and concentrated on improving the world around them without all the aggression, hatred and preconceptions of outsiders.

[rowan22]

Excellent post. I agree with you.

In my experience of education I learned more from interaction with others than the accumulation of knowledge. I find that actual physical and mental life experience has far more impact than simply being able to memorise a set of facts & figures. My relationships with other students and the pursuit of team-based activities were far more valuable than simply learning rules in parrot-fashion. Arguably, real life experiences are a better guide for one's personal sense of right & wrong, as well as providing a platform on which wisdom can be built. This also encourages common sense, objectivity, empathy and diplomacy.

I would not dare to claim that I have all the above traits instilled in my personality, but I have certainly been shown how these traits may be best achieved through life experience.

Many of the arguments here are static and they have been raging for years. One is forced to wonder what could be achieved on this forum if people stopped arguing about trivia and concentrated on improving the world around them without all the aggression, hatred and preconceptions of outsiders.


Nicely said. That’s the thing isn't it? At some point we were all filled with the idea that to even mention these things means we are claiming some kind of pseudo prophet status. As though in the very act of being open and "daring" to step outside the oh so "sophist" icated and cynical, we leave ourselves open to accusations of ego mania.

Speaking for myself I am all too fallible, and that is alright. I am all the failures and shortcomings of most and some more besides. And in accepting this I am left also knowing that I am as sincere as it is possible for me to be. And as willing to look at my own reflection warts and all.

Our culture polarises good/evil in such a way that if you are open about the gentle loving side people automatically think you are trumpeting some kind of superior saint angle. Its just a real shame that we don’t allow for the shades of grey and in so doing give the pain and love the oxygen they need to co exist and inform one another through feeling of the connection and relationship between the two.

[curly]

as interesting as all this stuff is,the only thing i'm gonna take out of it is a beady eye for manipulation and propaganda[I THINK]but i'm not as clever as the manipulators so who knows,dowsing and nature being 2 other things that really interested me,all the rest -ultimately a waste of thousands of hours sat with a book or in front of a p.c.Could have spent it dowsing or watching and understanding nature,still not too late:)

[rowan22]

as interesting as all this stuff is,the only thing i'm gonna take out of it is a beady eye for manipulation and propaganda[I THINK]but i'm not as clever as the manipulators so who knows,dowsing and nature being 2 other things that really interested me,all the rest -ultimately a waste of thousands of hours sat with a book or in front of a p.c.Could have spent it dowsing or watching and understanding nature,still not too late:)

I think that's a good point Curly Nature is a language isn't it? Its just a shame we are not taught how to read that language with quite so much enthusiasm by those whose words are full of empty promises.

[curly]

I think that's a good point Curly Nature is a language isn't it? Its just a shame we are not taught how to read that language with quite so much enthusiasm by those whose words are full of empty promises.

a short poem by robin george collinwood,sorry i,m always off topic
When a land neglects her legends
Sees but falsehoods in the past
And it's people view their sires
In the light of fools and liars
Tis a sign of it's decline
And it's splendours cannot last
Branches that but blight their roots
Yield no sap for lasting fruits

[pinkfreud]

Knowledge talks, Wisdom knows.


absolutely. i couldn't put it better myself.

i picked up a book last night called 'i am that' by nisargadatta maharaj. in the first few pages he actually describes knowledge as being an attribute of the mind, whereas awareness is an attribute of the immortal soul. obtaining the latter is the ultimate goal.


knowledge = mind = noise.
awareness = soul = silence.


knowledge is good, of course, and very desirable... but it's an important stepping stone to awareness and nothing more.






you don't need a book or person to tell you this, but it's nice to read something like this and get to know more from another person's unbiased pov... it's a way of life i still have to practice, i'm way, way far behind and probably wouldn't reach my goal during the course of my human life...

great thread though, beautiful for a first timer. btw, i like your name ;)

[rowan22]

a short poem by robin george collinwood,sorry i,m always off topic
When a land neglects her legends
Sees but falsehoods in the past
And it's people view their sires
In the light of fools and liars
Tis a sign of it's decline
And it's splendours cannot last
Branches that but blight their roots
Yield no sap for lasting fruits

I like that! And its very true. If knowledge is of the roots then its good knowledge. But when knowledge is more about the temporary colour of the leaves you know your in trouble. All real worthwhile knowledge is derived from this close understanding of nature if you ask me. I particularly like this line,

"And it's people view their sires
In the light of fools and liars"

Knowledge of this kind leads directly to awareness because nature is all which exists. Good Post.

[lyghtkynge]

absolutely. i couldn't put it better myself.

i picked up a book last night called 'i am that' by nisargadatta maharaj. in the first few pages he actually describes knowledge as being an attribute of the mind, whereas awareness is an attribute of the immortal soul. obtaining the latter is the ultimate goal.

knowledge = mind = noise.
awareness = soul = silence.

knowledge is good, of course, and very desirable... but it's an important stepping stone to awareness and nothing more.

you don't need a book or person to tell you this, but it's nice to read something like this and get to know more from another person's unbiased pov... it's a way of life i still have to practice, i'm way, way far behind and probably wouldn't reach my goal during the course of my human life...

It's nice to see expressing Truth like this. It's actually a Penetralia, just as written.

And insofar as not being able to achieve your goal, you must be aware of The Earth Boost we are In...it will reach an Event Horizon, at which time, if you study the Flower of Life, you will realize that your chance to connect the Postive Brilliance (Clear Light) with the Earth Negative Brilliance will enable you to Ride The Wave With Full Conscious-Awareness Will, rather than to just be carried along as a minnow caught in the Flow.

Chances are...

"The mystic labors, God-controlled,
Are multiform and manifold:
Results that even hope might flout
The Gods benignly bring about,
And expectations that have thrilled
The yearning heart are unfulfilled;
But triumphs ne'er by mind conceived
Are by the inner God achieved.
In such wise, by divine intent,
Befall this marvelous event.
(Euripides)

[unenlightened_waffle]

Your welcome you obviously write from the heart its nice to read. I think we often refer to courtesy and empathy as though they are some sort of minor detail. The truth is for me, that far from being at the edges of what people call “spirituality” they are actually the main determinant of it, on every level and in every way.

One of my favourite films is Les Miserable. Just because it shows central to its message the importance of believing that people are at heart good and able to feel the reality of sincerity and love. I don’t think its “cheesy” or naïve. I think we are supposed to think it is, and not talk about it directly for fear of being thought so. People often don’t realise that it is suffering generally which shows people the importance of empathy and realness. Having suffered myself and felt how distraught you can be at the absence of an understanding person to hear how you feel, I have committed myself to maintaining as much as is possible the process that allows me to be authentic and real.

This sometimes means that I am frankly, not very nice to be around. The world is cruel in places and telling myself that this is alright is just not how it feels at times. So the price I pay is the pain and anger which the heart says is a realistic reflection of what I see. Life should be about how it is not how we are told it should be.

The upside is, that this also means that since I’m open to suffering. I am also open to the full range of emotion and can prove my own life’s worth to myself based on no more than my own living of it.

Something which the system just doesn’t reward does it? Your not supposed to find your own inner sense of value are you? As you say and John Lennon, what a genius that man was!

“Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all”

Not surprising is when as you say all you ever hear is “jump through this hoop”. Whether purposefully or not, the result is the same. Dissociated misery, whose pain becomes the enemy and an anger at our own humanity for feeling it. The truth is within us isn’t it? Just waiting for someone to show us a spark of decency.

I could have chosen any line from working class hero to totally be in sympathy with what we both mean. But I love this track for its “simple” way of putting a smile in my eyes. Thanks for your own kind words.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITZKqbeQixI&feature=PlayList&p=15B457907969D53B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=49

And this one is an all time theme tune!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3pltmw6cmI

I think everyone has a bit of the 'I am not nice to be around' moments... I am only just figuring out that I could be of benefit to people just being there and listening to them. Even though I have known all along that people who are nice to me and friendly/kind are great people, I have still struggled to be warm to other people due to a lack of confidence and those pesky afflictive emotions!

The tendency to slander, judge or degrade people for simple lack of politeness (amongst other things) is immense, yet one word of kindness to these people instead with real meaning can change the day for that person... like it would do for me and you if someone did a nice thing for us at some point.

I am trying to learn to be a causer of good rather than trapped in endless culprit/victim karma. The sad thing is I have only consciously started this recently.

People who claim to be spiritual who do not speak with love and compassion to all and slander, degrade, create fear etc.. are in my opinion another hindrance on peoples growth, there own growth is sadly a million miles away.

As you, Jesus and perhaps every wise man the world has ever seen has probably said at some point or another 'The kingdom of god is within you'. (or words to that effect)

Going back on topic, the education/health/political/media people are all not doing enough to promote how to really live. If it was up to me the whole nation needs to sit down and watch My name is Earl until they get the point.

Enjoyed the songs although that Ray LaMontagne needs to start smiling a little more!

[unenlightened_waffle]

Excellent post. I agree with you.

In my experience of education I learned more from interaction with others than the accumulation of knowledge. I find that actual physical and mental life experience has far more impact than simply being able to memorise a set of facts & figures. My relationships with other students and the pursuit of team-based activities were far more valuable than simply learning rules in parrot-fashion. Arguably, real life experiences are a better guide for one's personal sense of right & wrong, as well as providing a platform on which wisdom can be built. This also encourages common sense, objectivity, empathy and diplomacy.

I would not dare to claim that I have all the above traits instilled in my personality, but I have certainly been shown how these traits may be best achieved through life experience.

Many of the arguments here are static and they have been raging for years. One is forced to wonder what could be achieved on this forum if people stopped arguing about trivia and concentrated on improving the world around them without all the aggression, hatred and preconceptions of outsiders.

I think most people don't have all those traits (I certainly don't), but instead of working towards a GCSE Geography kids could be taught to work towards achieving those traits, and those are things that could help them no end for the rest of their life.

Plate tectonics/true wisdom? tough choice!

I have been involved in many a heated debate about all sorts of different topics, the saddest thing of all is it has took me so long to realise they are pointless and more importantly damage the people involved (mentally).

[unenlightened_waffle]

as interesting as all this stuff is,the only thing i'm gonna take out of it is a beady eye for manipulation and propaganda[I THINK]but i'm not as clever as the manipulators so who knows,dowsing and nature being 2 other things that really interested me,all the rest -ultimately a waste of thousands of hours sat with a book or in front of a p.c.Could have spent it dowsing or watching and understanding nature,still not too late:)

I agree, Walden is one of my favourite books and if it was not for my friends and family i would be sitting in the middle of nature right now trying to understand it fully.

[pegcityevolve]

I think everyone has a bit of the 'I am not nice to be around' moments... I am only just figuring out that I could be of benefit to people just being there and listening to them. Even though I have known all along that people who are nice to me and friendly/kind are great people, I have still struggled to be warm to other people due to a lack of confidence and those pesky afflictive emotions!

The tendency to slander, judge or degrade people for simple lack of politeness (amongst other things) is immense, yet one word of kindness to these people instead with real meaning can change the day for that person... like it would do for me and you if someone did a nice thing for us at some point.

I am trying to learn to be a causer of good rather than trapped in endless culprit/victim karma. The sad thing is I have only consciously started this recently.

People who claim to be spiritual who do not speak with love and compassion to all and slander, degrade, create fear etc.. are in my opinion another hindrance on peoples growth, there own growth is sadly a million miles away.

As you, Jesus and perhaps every wise man the world has ever seen has probably said at some point or another 'The kingdom of god is within you'. (or words to that effect)

Going back on topic, the education/health/political/media people are all not doing enough to promote how to really live. If it was up to me the whole nation needs to sit down and watch My name is Earl until they get the point.

Enjoyed the songs although that Ray LaMontagne needs to start smiling a little more!Lmao! I agree. :P

[rowan22]

I think everyone has a bit of the 'I am not nice to be around' moments... I am only just figuring out that I could be of benefit to people just being there and listening to them. Even though I have known all along that people who are nice to me and friendly/kind are great people, I have still struggled to be warm to other people due to a lack of confidence and those pesky afflictive emotions!

The tendency to slander, judge or degrade people for simple lack of politeness (amongst other things) is immense, yet one word of kindness to these people instead with real meaning can change the day for that person... like it would do for me and you if someone did a nice thing for us at some point.

I am trying to learn to be a causer of good rather than trapped in endless culprit/victim karma. The sad thing is I have only consciously started this recently.

People who claim to be spiritual who do not speak with love and compassion to all and slander, degrade, create fear etc.. are in my opinion another hindrance on peoples growth, there own growth is sadly a million miles away.

As you, Jesus and perhaps every wise man the world has ever seen has probably said at some point or another 'The kingdom of god is within you'. (or words to that effect)

Going back on topic, the education/health/political/media people are all not doing enough to promote how to really live. If it was up to me the whole nation needs to sit down and watch My name is Earl until they get the point.

Enjoyed the songs although that Ray LaMontagne needs to start smiling a little more!


It's understandable that you get impatient with impolite people, I do. You cant evolve unless you accept how o.k. it is to just be who you are. For me its the key. If I spent all my time trying to be "spiritual" I would probably become a total basket case!

It can feel like a knife edge to say I'm going to just be myself and let the cards fall. But it is the way all our feeling can return without feeling we will jump all over ourselves and say "Your not doing that right"

It's alright to be human. In accepting that our love for ourselves can begin to show itself again. We start to feel like we are o.k. Not a prophet, (I'm no wise man) I'm just a man!

And that is alright, because in that acceptance I don’t create an ego to become more of a destructive hindrance than a creative ally. Which being honest about my many faults is!

Religion will tell you that to be "good" you have to decide what you are not! I would say that the opposite is actually the case, decide who you (are) and from that you will see that everyone else id just like you. Doing their best, and sometimes their worst, but it's all real.

And its all the expression of pain trying to find its way back to its humanity.

Love is real! It changes lives and spirits and makes the desolate fruitful again.

This is just commonsense! No divine dogma necessary!

Just the heartfelt sense that within yourself is someone who would much rather love than hate. And from that, the empathy for your own suffering that allows you to see yourself in everyone, even if at times you feel angry and pissed off. If you show your own feelings patience and understanding they will naturally change and always repay you with love.

Love to you Rowan.

P.S I love Ray for his beautiful expression of pain that leads to love.

[lyghtkynge]

'Intellectual' is a hidey hole of self-perpetuating ignorance; there is something 'out there.' I've met It.

Its Watching. I've often felt it like a person thunderously running and passing by.

All the love in a soft-spoken person's heart isn't going to straighten the Earth and its human History (history of humanity on Earth). It hasn't yet, and it'll be stopped Cold by the few that try. There's Something Else in the Equation. The materialist doesn't understand that Love Is Not The Answer...

LOVE WITH WISDOM, is.
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/rids/20091111/i/r2132355259.jpg?

[rowan22]

'Intellectual' is a hidey hole of self-perpetuating ignorance; there is something 'out there.' I've met It.

Its Watching. I've often felt it like a person thunderously running and passing by.

All the love in a soft-spoken person's heart isn't going to straighten the Earth and its human History (history of humanity on Earth). It hasn't yet, and it'll be stopped Cold by the few that try. There's Something Else in the Equation. The materialist doesn't understand that Love Is Not The Answer...

LOVE WITH WISDOM, is.
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/rids/20091111/i/r2132355259.jpg?


Materialism is the product of an academic tradition which separates mind and body. There is no such thing as a mind without a body. We are all material. It is just what material we are made of, and which part of it we feel as more valuable. The term itself creates a division which does not exist. Prior to Aristotle and Plato, the Philosophical traditions worldwide recognised the unity of mind, and body. The Term “Physis“, which became the basis for the word Physics incorporated the whole of nature, with no concept of separate parts or spirit. One unified reality connected and whole.

With love, for me, as its existential prime creative force.

If someone doesn't value love, then they don’t value themselves. They have already "lost" themselves. Although there is no real war, just a process of becoming, which involves more and more people reaching the edges of despair and then choosing from the heart whether the answer is more despair or more love.

Whatever the subsequent intra/inter dimensional reality is, it is not separate in essence to this one. Love still unifies, is creative and its power reverberates across the layers of reality like drops in the ocean.

[unenlightened_waffle]

It's understandable that you get impatient with impolite people, I do. You cant evolve unless you accept how o.k. it is to just be who you are. For me its the key. If I spent all my time trying to be "spiritual" I would probably become a total basket case!

It can feel like a knife edge to say I'm going to just be myself and let the cards fall. But it is the way all our feeling can return without feeling we will jump all over ourselves and say "Your not doing that right"

It's alright to be human. In accepting that our love for ourselves can begin to show itself again. We start to feel like we are o.k. Not a prophet, (I'm no wise man) I'm just a man!

And that is alright, because in that acceptance I don’t create an ego to become more of a destructive hindrance than a creative ally. Which being honest about my many faults is!

Religion will tell you that to be "good" you have to decide what you are not! I would say that the opposite is actually the case, decide who you (are) and from that you will see that everyone else id just like you. Doing their best, and sometimes their worst, but it's all real.

And its all the expression of pain trying to find its way back to its humanity.

Love is real! It changes lives and spirits and makes the desolate fruitful again.

This is just commonsense! No divine dogma necessary!

Just the heartfelt sense that within yourself is someone who would much rather love than hate. And from that, the empathy for your own suffering that allows you to see yourself in everyone, even if at times you feel angry and pissed off. If you show your own feelings patience and understanding they will naturally change and always repay you with love.

Love to you Rowan.

P.S I love Ray for his beautiful expression of pain that leads to love.

I have never been able to accept myself as I am not what I want to be, so I am striving to improve every part of my life. Sadly this again is easier said than done. I feel awful tonight as a charity girl came up to me on the street and said hello, how are you? I replied with a habitual quick 'Nice to meet you, in a rush go to go'. Felt terrible how I could have been so inconsiderate!

I am going to go back and apologise to her tomorrow if she is still there. I feel a pain in my heart for what I have done, it is about the 4th separate pain I have got relating to 'love' or 'compassion' do you know anything about it?

Sorry to go off topic a little. Agree with the dogma but, religion without dogma would probably work!

[rowan22]

I have never been able to accept myself as I am not what I want to be, so I am striving to improve every part of my life. Sadly this again is easier said than done. I feel awful tonight as a charity girl came up to me on the street and said hello, how are you? I replied with a habitual quick 'Nice to meet you, in a rush go to go'. Felt terrible how I could have been so inconsiderate!

I am going to go back and apologise to her tomorrow if she is still there. I feel a pain in my heart for what I have done, it is about the 4th separate pain I have got relating to 'love' or 'compassion' do you know anything about it?

Sorry to go off topic a little. Agree with the dogma but, religion without dogma would probably work!

The strange thing is that when you accept yourself as you are, you can change. Insisting that you "measure up" to some external standard, or some internalised standard that someone else has made you feel is better than who you are prevents us from feeling our own emotions and thus keeps us frozen in self recrimination and repression.

The girl you mention wasn't badly hurt by your lack of attention. You seem to be trying to take on responsibility for her sense of wellbeing, it isn't your responsibility. And telling yourself that it is doesn't help her because only she can find her own worth. And it doesn't help you because the natural feeling and kind person you obviously are, is ejected out of your emotional natural process by guilt brought about by assuming you must save her.

I hope I am not being too direct in saying this to you, it's just that I have had a similar affliction (albeit well intentioned) in believing that it is "up to me" to save people. It isn't! The paradoxical thing is as soon as I realised in my feelings that it wasn't, I started t feel my own needs and realised that actually I would like to help people. But I was free of the guilt which made me take responsibility for every inconsequential act which I constantly berated myself for not having done "right".

And as a result left myself exhausted and feeling so terrible that nothing of the real good that can be done when I value myself was actually allowed to happen.

The old cliché about having to love ourselves first maybe a cliché but it is no less true for that. If you don’t value your own feelings you hardly know what feeling actually feels like, because self disdain is not feeling, it is the tension that results from not accepting our feelings. Feelings naturally tend towards healing and love. But only when we value the pain that (can) accompany loss. Otherwise we are too afraid to let go and feel, in case something painful happens again. Usually the thing that stopped us feeling has already happened.

Hope I dont offend you, but ask yourself why nothing you do is ever good enough to yourself. For me it was parents who never left me alone and constantly made me feel like I was inherently bad for existing. I took to heart their criticism of me and it left an open wound my body would not feel because it felt as if to feel it confirmed its reality.

Feeling it healed it.

[unenlightened_waffle]

The strange thing is that when you accept yourself as you are, you can change. Insisting that you "measure up" to some external standard, or some internalised standard that someone else has made you feel is better than who you are prevents us from feeling our own emotions and thus keeps us frozen in self recrimination and repression.

The girl you mention wasn't badly hurt by your lack of attention. You seem to be trying to take on responsibility for her sense of wellbeing, it isn't your responsibility. And telling yourself that it is doesn't help her because only she can find her own worth. And it doesn't help you because the natural feeling and kind person you obviously are, is ejected out of your emotional natural process by guilt brought about by assuming you must save her.

I hope I am not being too direct in saying this to you, it's just that I have had a similar affliction (albeit well intentioned) in believing that it is "up to me" to save people. It isn't! The paradoxical thing is as soon as I realised in my feelings that it wasn't, I started t feel my own needs and realised that actually I would like to help people. But I was free of the guilt which made me take responsibility for every inconsequential act which I constantly berated myself for not having done "right".

And as a result left myself exhausted and feeling so terrible that nothing of the real good that can be done when I value myself was actually allowed to happen.

The old cliché about having to love ourselves first maybe a cliché but it is no less true for that. If you don’t value your own feelings you hardly know what feeling actually feels like, because self disdain is not feeling, it is the tension that results from not accepting our feelings. Feelings naturally tend towards healing and love. But only when we value the pain that (can) accompany loss. Otherwise we are too afraid to let go and feel, in case something painful happens again. Usually the thing that stopped us feeling has already happened.

Hope I dont offend you, but ask yourself why nothing you do is ever good enough to yourself. For me it was parents who never left me alone and constantly made me feel like I was inherently bad for existing. I took to heart their criticism of me and it left an open wound my body would not feel because it felt as if to feel it confirmed its reality.

Feeling it healed it.

No offence taken, I am not easily offended, nor do I think speaking ones mind should be discouraged, as you say it is my own personal journey if you said something that did offend then if it was true then it something I need to change in me if it was false then it does not matter. Either way it should make me stronger :)

Thanks for your advice, it is clear to me now that I over reacted to a minor situation but I still feel it is something I have to improve, I feel I am not trying to live up to others expectations but I have internalised my own. I think the lesson I will take from it will be simply take the time to talk to everyone who makes an effort with me. My lesson will be one of compassion, her lesson (if there is one) is for her to deal with, not in a harsh way but there are more people who would be far more impolite than me.

The next time some charity person or anyone talks to me I will be friendly and take the time to talk to them.

Rather than me trying to save her, it was more worry that I had hurt her. I know it is going to sound outrageous but imagine if she had been told to go away all day by people and she said if one more person ignores me then I am going to top myself..... Maybe it is still me trying to save her, but I have got to believe an act of kindness will help.

It is weird, it is not that nothing that I do is good enough, it is more that the good things I achieve I leave unnoticed and focus on the bad... but I think that is the way it has to be so people do what they came here to do and grow.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply :)

[rowan22]

As you say it is your own journey and in the end we all make our own lessons to some degree dont we? :)

[unenlightened_waffle]

As you say it is your own journey and in the end we all make our own lessons to some degree dont we? :)

Indeed, now lets all do some sun gazing! :)

[rowan22]

Indeed, now lets all do some sun gazing! :)

I'm more a Moon man myself:rolleyes:

[mauviene]

When I came to the peak of my depression..holding so much knowledge for the age that I am..I came to realize that it all was meaningless...because in it I still had suffering..

I used to have the desire to read book after book..looking for the truth..the truth...

I now question this..is truth what I am really looking for...or am I looking to end my suffering?

Do they float in the same boat..or do they move in completely different springs?

[rowan22]

When I came to the peak of my depression..holding so much knowledge for the age that I am..I came to realize that it all was meaningless...because in it I still had suffering..

I used to have the desire to read book after book..looking for the truth..the truth...

I now question this..is truth what I am really looking for...or am I looking to end my suffering?

Do they float in the same boat..or do they move in completely different springs?

Hi Mauvine, I was pretty much the same to be honest. Devouring books reading and studying. All very interesting and up to a point very informative/useful. What I realised is that while ever I didn’t look in to my own heart I only widened the distance between myself and the real reason for my searching.

The answers lye within me. But I also realise that the knowledge I sought so veraciously was knowledge of this self. My deeper self knew exactly where I needed to go to answer my questions even when my conscious mind felt lost. The reality was, I was deciding more where it wasn’t' than where it was.

[mauviene]

Hi Mauvine, I was pretty much the same to be honest. Devouring books reading and studying. All very interesting and up to a point very informative/useful. What I realised is that while ever I didn’t look in to my own heart I only widened the distance between myself and the real reason for my searching.

The answers lye within me. But I also realise that the knowledge I sought so veraciously was knowledge of this self. My deeper self knew exactly where I needed to go to answer my questions even when my conscious mind felt lost. The reality was, I was deciding more where it wasn’t' than where it was.

The journey inwards...such a path we all must take...

[rowan22]

The journey inwards...such a path we all must take...


Absolutely. If we don’t, all the knowledge in the world is just more “sophisticated” ways to deceive ourselves.

[mauviene]

Absolutely. If we don’t, all the knowledge in the world is just more “sophisticated” ways to deceive ourselves.

Haha..very unfortunate but true.

[rowan22]

Haha..very unfortunate but true.

The truth is we all want sincerity and genuineness don’t we?. If only it was something people could appreciate the value of before the fact. It's self validating isn't it? But our culture puts so many obstacles and prejudices in its way. If only simple and common sense conveyed the reality of their availability. we would all be smiling.

I would rather have a friend who laughed after tripping up than a book of Tibetan secret whatever!

[curly]

I agree, Walden is one of my favourite books and if it was not for my friends and family i would be sitting in the middle of nature right now trying to understand it fully.

hermitry,what a noble profession.Know what you mean so would i.;)

[worlds beyond]

My first post! Hello people! :)

The question I would like is do you think that most knowledge is essentially useless?

Let me explain a little more....

I know it seems a strange thing to say but is it not experiencing that is the key rather than trying to prove people wrong in transitory arguments, I have come to the conclusion that some people could read thousands of books on varying topics and may become a fountain of knowledge for many subjects but if in the end we have access to the infinite any way, what is the point? unless you learn something that will change your way of living from the knowledge?

Things like secret society's, mystery schools, religion etc... Are they but a veil to encourage people to improve from experiences and put people in touch with the nature of symbolism within us?

We are taught from a young age in the west to remember this and that, so we can be like parrots, but to what end. Unless you think for yourself at some point rather than reading Dave and Bob's idea's and agreeing with Bob you do not truly learn?

I was just reading a few posts on other threads and it seemed to go back to the usual slanging matches, similar to that of the BBC 606 forums. It all seemed a little pointless.



Hello and welcome!

Good post, and agree with much of it. And yes, is sad to see so many good posts totally derailed by slanging matches and other nonsense.

Have often said, I'd rather have an ounce of wisdom than a tonne of knowledge.

:)

[worlds beyond]

I would rather have a friend who laughed after tripping up than a book of Tibetan secret whatever!


that is a genuinely lovely way of putting it! :)

[rowan22]

that is a genuinely lovely way of putting it! :)

Thanks for feeling that and saying so:)

[worlds beyond]

Thanks for feeling that and saying so:)

you're very welcome, your saying has kept me smiling all afternoon.. I shall definitely remember your quote (and give credit to you when I use it in future of course)! :)

[rowan22]

you're very welcome, your saying has kept me smiling all afternoon.. I shall definitely remember your quote (and give credit to you when I use it in future of course)! :)


No credit required:) I'm just leasing the sentiment from reality:)

[unenlightened_waffle]

that is a genuinely lovely way of putting it! :)

agreed! beautiful

[302bluefog]

The question I would like is do you think that most knowledge is essentially useless?

Let me explain a little more....

I know it seems a strange thing to say but is it not experiencing that is the key rather than trying to prove people wrong in transitory arguments, I have come to the conclusion that some people could read thousands of books on varying topics and may become a fountain of knowledge for many subjects but if in the end we have access to the infinite any way, what is the point? unless you learn something that will change your way of living from the knowledge?

Things like secret society's, mystery schools, religion etc... Are they but a veil to encourage people to improve from experiences and put people in touch with the nature of symbolism within us?

We are taught from a young age in the west to remember this and that, so we can be like parrots, but to what end. Unless you think for yourself at some point rather than reading Dave and Bob's idea's and agreeing with Bob you do not truly learn?

I was just reading a few posts on other threads and it seemed to go back to the usual slanging matches, similar to that of the BBC 606 forums. It all seemed a little pointless.

I think that alot of knowledge we learn at a young age, good or bad will affect our quality of life as we get older. Some for positive some for negative. If you dont learn about the system it is hard to use it to survive. Some public schools here in America are so dangerous there is no-way to learn anything but the "war culture".

[eyecontact]

Is there a spiritual materialism? I've heard something like that not to long ago.:confused: