To know or to Be?

[rowan22]

Interested to ask people which one you would choose if it came to it?

Would it be better to "know" the ins and ands of the N.W.O, or would it be more important to know the way of being that sets you free?

I appreciate the inherent contradiction this will pose for many, I pose the question precisely for that reason.

Cheers:)

[ekim]

I am me I am free

[rowan22]

I am me I am free

Be the change:)

[cryst4l]

Neither....I just am :)

[tjohn]

To know or to Be?To reach our full potential we need to know what is happening in the world, so it has to be Both.

[merlincove]

Unity can not exist without singularity.

The holy trinity is one thing, and yet it is three individuals.

There will always be thos who we do not agree with, but without the left hand, the right hand works twice as hard.

[rowan22]

To reach our full potential we need to know what is happening in the world, so it has to be Both.

True knowledge of the world is important. But what of a world where much of the "knowledge" is no longer to be trusted?

How do we ground ourselves in the reality which is reliant on no misinformation? How do we strip away the detail of information overload and pear down the issues to their central foundation of liberty?

[ekim]

The holy trinity is one thing, and yet it is three individuals.

Do you mean 3 individual aspects of being one?

I see the "holy trinity" as spirit-heart-mind.

Unity can not exist without singularity.

Imo, singularity is how we miss our truth. Only listening to your spirit can blind you from the fact you are human and meant to experience life. Only listening to your heart you seem to lack the ablity to serperate "one love" and "your love". Only listening to mind, well we know what that results in.

True knowledge of the world is important. But what of a world where much of the "knowledge" is no longer to be trusted?

These three are connected verey closely, our spirit is the "source" which is light that creates vibration which creates sound which is filtered through our energy body into our heart and then to our mind(the heart/mind conection has been proven). When this is done there is no need to seek knowledge as you become knowledge, this is the purpose of entheogens(generating the god within). Of course the same change in chemistry/awareness can be achieved without an outside source but even shamans know the value to these magical substances.

Just my thoughts on that :D

[tjohn]

True knowledge of the world is important. But what of a world where much of the "knowledge" is no longer to be trusted?

How do we ground ourselves in the reality which is reliant on no misinformation? How do we strip away the detail of information overload and pear down the issues to their central foundation of liberty?You mean Freedom don't you? Liberty is something we need permission for.

Interesting questions though. True knowledge is important and yes we can get information overload. Information on its own is not true knowledge, understanding our situation is. If we isolate ourselves from the world we will be asleep not awake, not knowing what they are doing to us until it is too late. That's why true knowledge is important.

They hide and confuse with misinformation but we have to try to understand the best we can and at least try to do something about it. We do need to be but if we "just be" we won't know what is really happening and when the war is over, we will not be allowed to be our true selves by any draconian NWO.

John

PS
Because I'm not well I can only be at the computer for a few minutes at a time and will answer your PM as soon as I can. Oh and thanks. :)

[branjo]

Interested to ask people which one you would choose if it came to it?

Would it be better to "know" the ins and ands of the N.W.O, or would it be more important to know the way of being that sets you free?

I appreciate the inherent contradiction this will pose for many, I pose the question precisely for that reason.

Cheers:)

I don't think the two options are mutually exclusive. If we had the complete plan of the NWO we would know it was meant to stop us reaching the unity of consciousness. So by knowing everything the NWO is about we would also know what they are trying to keep for themselves and what they are not allowing us to have.

So my answer would have to be, either one would do.

[rowan22]

I don't think the two options are mutually exclusive. If we had the complete plan of the NWO we would know it was meant to stop us reaching the unity of consciousness. So by knowing everything the NWO is about we would also know what they are trying to keep for themselves and what they are not allowing us to have.

So my answer would have to be, either one would do.


But where would this leave us? If as you say we had a blueprint of the N.W.O. and on that blueprint the details of our repression were laid out, in stark clarity would that be any different from our being in contact with our organic self here and now?

Do we not in a sense already have just such a blueprint before us? And since I believe we do, why is it that some still fail to connect the obvious implications of this pattern of repression? There is no shortage of evidence just at a very obvious political level.

Our contact with our true conscious self should leave no doubt as to the agenda. As we experience our own liberation the contrast with what we are being asked to regard as "normal" should become ever more sharp.

My point is, I believe the "evidence" for the N.W.O not to be in some C.I.A vault or N.S.A, MI6 dossier. But in our own awakened self.

An awakening which is dependent on an emotional/spiritual shift which precedes a cognitive change in the connections seen.

A value shift which then perceives a very different reality. Not without knowledge, but with a special kind of awareness.

[branjo]

But where would this leave us? If as you say we had a blueprint of the N.W.O. and on that blueprint the details of our repression were laid out, in stark clarity would that be any different from our being in contact with our organic self here and now?

Yes, that's basically just what I mean, the closer we get to the truth about them, the closer we get to the truth about ourselves, and vice versa. When you have the plans in front of you that tell you how they stop you being free, then those same plans in front of you also tell you how to be free.


Do we not in a sense already have just such a blueprint before us? And since I believe we do, why is it that some still fail to connect the obvious implications of this pattern of repression? There is no shortage of evidence just at a very obvious political level.

Yes but we are here because we know and feel that there is something terribly wrong with the world, 99.999% of the world are not here realizing the same thing. We are even thought of as the enemy by the very people we are trying to wise up. For this reason we have to pull back the curtain and show the people who and what has been pulling the levers of the machine. We can't just give up trying to help the people who are wholly convinced that things are the way they are meant to be forever. We have to do it a way that even the most spiritually inept person can grasp it and understand it. In most cases this involves hard factual evidence, which is bloody hard to come by.


Our contact with our true conscious self should leave no doubt as to the agenda. As we experience our own liberation the contrast with what we are being asked to regard as "normal" should become ever more sharp.

I absolutely agree, but that's our perspective. If we could all just realize there is more within us than without us, the world would stop the machine tomorrow and recalibrate it to help instead of hindering. But we can't because people are waiting for the elusive cold hard facts.

For example, I believe 100% that this planet is probably one in thousands, possibly even hundreds of thousands of habitable planets within our own galaxy. And people who don't even think about such things would still say they think somewhere there has to be life. But all the sources that are showing evidence of this phenomenon are somehow "pre" tainted as untrustworthy, because the fear of being ridiculed is still very high. The people that think there is something but don't want to commit to a decision, will only ever commit when they see it on CNN or the BBC news. In some regards we are all waiting for that kind of disclosure, we don't want the silent slip in slip out kind of ET contact, we want the hard in your face kind of evidence to prove it or we won't believe it fully either (all personal experience aside). Isn't this the blindfold that has been placed on our eyes for us to excuse the truth and keep the people that really know, safe from scrutiny? So to make the people aware of this certainty they need the evidence that has been kept from them, they need as much physical proof as they do spiritual proof because your physical self isn't a mistake or an illusion to negate or to brush aside, at the minute that's all most of us have.


My point is, I believe the "evidence" for the N.W.O not to be in some C.I.A vault or N.S.A, MI6 dossier. But in our own awakened self.

An awakening which is dependent on an emotional/spiritual shift which precedes a cognitive change in the connections seen.

A value shift which then perceives a very different reality. Not without knowledge, but with a special kind of awareness.

I think we need to "awake" to our spiritual selves but also be "aware" of our physical selves, together. "I feel" they are 2 links on the same chain, you cannot have the evolution of one without the other, as above so below kind of thing. And I really don't think it matters which one you are drawn to as long as there is fundamental progression at the heart of the actions we take. To make a better physical world would allow for a better understanding of the spiritual world and to be aware of the spiritual world would reflect back onto the physical world. But as most of us have been cut off from the spiritual world for a very long time, I feel we have to stick to what we know. Now I don't mean ignore the spiritual side of us, we cultivate it along the way of course, but I think if we are all honest with our selves, there is more of us "here" than there is of us "there", only at the moment of course.

This I feel is how the bastards have us by the short and curlies, they know most of us have no spiritual ties as they have convinced us to sever them throughout hundreds or thousands and quite possibly hundreds of thousands of years, little by little they have drawn us onto their turf. Now personally I see more sense in beating them on their own turf than to spiritually run away to another realm in search of greener grass, I really don't see us learning anything that way. Its a hell of a thing to defeat them this way but I think it has to be all or nothing, and no matter how in tune our higher/spiritual self is, it is in no way completely finished with learning about the universe/s. If we are children in the physical world then we have to also be children in the spiritual world. We have a heck of a long way to go in both worlds, and that makes me feel better that the journey no matter what world or realm we consciously exist from, is only beginning and its all ahead of us, even if its infinite which I think it is.

I think we will keep coming back until we learn to accept every aspect of the physical, including the horrific pain and intense pleasures that comes with it. When we are open to everything "honestly" then we may just get that conscious shift where there is more of ourselves over there than there is right here.

Its a really good question you asked btw, very interesting subject. I have absolutely no idea if what I believe I can put into practice or even into words that I can convey clearly to someone else. Sometimes I feel like I am my own truther and my own shill simultaneously. I constantly wrestle with the idea of freewill vs grand plan on a daily basis, but Se La Ve as they say...lol.

[rowan22]

Firstly Branjo can I say how much I enjoyed reading what you have written!


This was exactly the type of discussion I hoped would be raised. Thank you.


“Yes, that's basically just what I mean, the closer we get to the truth about them, the closer we get to the truth about ourselves, and vice versa. When you have the plans in front of you that tell you how they stop you being free, then those same plans in front of you also tell you how to be free“.


I totally agree here, I think we see the same contrast being an evolutionary pressure? An intolerable imposition of tyranny which indicts itself.


I suppose my central reason for posing the question, which is to some degree is rhetorical, as I guess you know, is how not to be mislead by those sections of the society who have the most to gain by preventing a large scale awakening.

For my self, I sense a deepening avalanche of misinformation, disguised as something cast iron, but which from a rational perspective draws absolute ridicule. I’m thinking specifically of the "reptilian" theory of what is happening in the world. For most in the mainstream, this is a step into pure delusion, and please don’t mistake my scepticism for anything else. I respect a lot of the members who obviously do believe this. I am just noting that amongst the general population these ideas bring a dismissal when 90% of the
bulk of the rest of what is said in this area may not, when it is accompanied by a sound analysis which includes what constitutes consensus perception.


“Yes but we are here because we know and feel that there is something terribly wrong with the world, 99.999% of the world are not here realizing the same thing. We are even thought of as the enemy by the very people we are trying to wise up. For this reason we have to pull back the curtain and show the people who and what has been pulling the levers of the machine. We can't just give up trying to help the people who are wholly convinced that things are the way they are meant to be forever. We have to do it a way that even the most spiritually inept person can grasp it and understand it. In most cases this involves hard factual evidence, which is bloody hard to come by“.


I here what you say, and to be honest I could have said a very similar thing myself. Please don’t mistake me for someone who dismisses the value of empirical knowledge. That would just be handing over power to the people who would love us to believe in fictions propagated by the media and the mass market “ministry of truth”.

But I return again to the former point. How can “Alien” or “inter dimensional” attack, be reconciled with consensus reality? It is precisely the 99.999% we most need to reach surely? Unless we want to remain a minority enclave?

I am totally in agreement with you on the importance of hard evidence. But how will it be gained? And since Psychologically, once a persons perception has been tainted towards a particular target, be that David Icke or “Conspiracy theory’s” as a whole, is it pragmatic to exclusively continue to press that line, however legitimate it maybe?

After all “pulling back the curtain” to reveal the great and powerful oz! happened with Watergate didn’t it? And that has only lead to the Neo Cons becoming more dug in to the foundations of the house of liberty. They had a shock, at the freedom of the press and society as a whole and set about dismantling that threat over the last thirty five years.


“I absolutely agree, but that's our perspective. If we could all just realize there is more within us than without us, the world would stop the machine tomorrow and recalibrate it to help instead of hindering. But we can't because people are waiting for the elusive cold hard facts“.

Facts when available to conscious appraisal are essential. But I personally feel it’s a bit like staring at one those dot pictures that contain a sailing ship if you stair long enough. The brain realigns the hemispheric process of information to reveal what was there all along. Some people have to stair for an inordinate amount of time. Because the linguistic rational side is so dominant in our culture in many people. I see the perception of the N.W.O in a very similar way. All the information is there already it is just waiting for a perceptual shift to occur. As in the analogy of the sailing boat picture, it’s not just more information that is needed, it is a shift in the process. And I think (taking nothing from) the value of reason and Philosophy etc, our whole culture neglects our holistic perception to the real detriment of our rational process. As you say “as above so below” a complimentary pairing of wave/particle. Though/feeling knowing/being.



“For example, I believe 100% that this planet is probably one in thousands, possibly even hundreds of thousands of habitable planets within our own galaxy. And people who don't even think about such things would still say they think somewhere there has to be life. But all the sources that are showing evidence of this phenomenon are somehow "pre" tainted as untrustworthy, because the fear of being ridiculed is still very high. The people that think there is something but don't want to commit to a decision, will only ever commit when they see it on CNN or the BBC news. In some regards we are all waiting for that kind of disclosure, we don't want the silent slip in slip out kind of ET contact, we want the hard in your face kind of evidence to prove it or we won't believe it fully either (all personal experience aside). Isn't this the blindfold that has been placed on our eyes for us to excuse the truth and keep the people that really know, safe from scrutiny? So to make the people aware of this certainty they need the evidence that has been kept from them, they need as much physical proof as they do spiritual proof because your physical self isn't a mistake or an illusion to negate or to brush aside, at the minute that's all most of us have“.


I think your right the bias is totally embedded. And this is because science is a social activity. By definition. For a Physicist (our cultures Bishop) to come out and say that there is a high degree of probability that we are the progeny of inter stellar exploration would receive total professional ex communication. No matter what evidence there was. And here again we seem to be saying a very similar thing in a slightly different way. The bias is, not objective by definition because it is a bias. Something prevents the scientific community from even asking questions around this area. I would say it is fear. Fear of the implications for our systems of , they would say order, we would say control. So the exploration is not actually an exploration, it is a very skewed interpretation of empirical data to support a particular view of reality a priori.


“I think we need to "awake" to our spiritual selves but also be "aware" of our physical selves, together. "I feel" they are 2 links on the same chain, you cannot have the evolution of one without the other, as above so below kind of thing. And I really don't think it matters which one you are drawn to as long as there is fundamental progression at the heart of the actions we take. To make a better physical world would allow for a better understanding of the spiritual world and to be aware of the spiritual world would reflect back onto the physical world. But as most of us have been cut off from the spiritual world for a very long time, I feel we have to stick to what we know. Now I don't mean ignore the spiritual side of us, we cultivate it along the way of course, but I think if we are all honest with our selves, there is more of us "here" than there is of us "there", only at the moment of course“.


I agree totally! My own sense is that the “spiritual” is not a separate entity at all. That all “Physis” or nature is an interconnected system of Multiversal synthesis of organic connection. That sounds totally “pseudo” but I believe it so there you go.


I don’t disagree that we should be well and truly grounded in this reality. This is reality “The world is everything that is actually the case” after all. I see the spiritual being an extension of our total being. A being that enables the emotional/Psychological development of every human being on the planet. Not by any other means than primarily good old common sense ones. I believe that our culture has made normal the abnormal in that our education is a conditioned rote learned pantomime of repetition. I don’t mean don’t study the greats. I mean study them when (our) emotional base has fully established its own sense of self and individual unique perspective and world view. I look at the enlightenment and I see Da Vinci Michael Angelo, Bacon, etc and I see renaissance man! Genius being allowed by throwing off the chains of dogma and received wisdom, and becoming the flower of human creativity. Scientist in the morning, artist in the afternoon poet in the evening. Why/how? Because when human beings are left to learn how to think, and not told what to think their perception of the infinite possibility’s of human development burst's into being.


“This I feel is how the bastards have us by the short and curlies, they know most of us have no spiritual ties as they have convinced us to sever them throughout hundreds or thousands and quite possibly hundreds of thousands of years, little by little they have drawn us onto their turf. Now personally I see more sense in beating them on their own turf than to spiritually run away to another realm in search of greener grass, I really don't see us learning anything that way. Its a hell of a thing to defeat them this way but I think it has to be all or nothing, and no matter how in tune our higher/spiritual self is, it is in no way completely finished with learning about the universe/s. If we are children in the physical world then we have to also be children in the spiritual world. We have a heck of a long way to go in both worlds, and that makes me feel better that the journey no matter what world or realm we consciously exist from, is only beginning and its all ahead of us, even if its infinite which I think it is“.


I know by this point you will have gathered that far from running away to seek some kind of alternative redemption, I feel, for all the reasons you so thoughtfully express that “we should beat them on their own ground” And combined with good sound reason and common sense, err towards the consensus which completely supports our perceptions of reality. Based precisely on what you describe, and with the awareness that our perceptual world view can also be profoundly altered by acceptance of the real meaning of enlightenment. Not just in the Buddhist sense but in the Socratic, scientific liberation of thought which as Einstein pointed out:


"Only the individual can think, and thereby create new values for society, nay, even set up new moral standards to which the life of the community conforms. ... The ideals which have lighted my way, and time after time have given me new courage to face life cheerfully, have been Kindness, Beauty and Truth".(Albert Einstein, 1954)


"Communities tend to be guided less than individuals by conscience and a sense of responsibility. How much misery does this fact cause mankind! It is the source of wars and every kind of oppression, which fill the earth with pain, sighs and bitterness".
(Albert Einstein, 1934)


I think we will keep coming back until we learn to accept every aspect of the physical, including the horrific pain and intense pleasures that comes with it. When we are open to everything "honestly" then we may just get that conscious shift where there is more of ourselves over there than there is right here.


Its a really good question you asked btw, very interesting subject. I have absolutely no idea if what I believe I can put into practice or even into words that I can convey clearly to someone else. Sometimes I feel like I am my own truther and my own shill simultaneously. I constantly wrestle with the idea of freewill vs grand plan on a daily basis, but Se La Ve as they say...lol


Thanks for the positive response, I think our view is pretty much complimentary isn’t it? I can’t say I disagree with anything you’ve written. And the lone truther bit, I definitely understand, and the shill!. Maybe the “hair shirt” we wear compels a refining of the wool take place?

Thanks again I really enjoyed reading and replying to your post

[unenlightened_waffle]

First I decided to be

Then I decided to think

Thirdly I decided to improve

In my opinion the NWO thing is clearly evil and we have to make a stand when the time comes, but I always believe that I will not be able to coherently take down the NWO unless I have realised my spiritual progress.

So spiritual progress for me everytime. Bad things happen, and have always happened and will continue to happen, I cannot face the evil until I have faced it in myself first and learned to forgive the people at the top.

[rowan22]

First I decided to be

Then I decided to think

Thirdly I decided to improve

In my opinion the NWO thing is clearly evil and we have to make a stand when the time comes, but I always believe that I will not be able to coherently take down the NWO unless I have realised my spiritual progress.

So spiritual progress for me everytime. Bad things happen, and have always happened and will continue to happen, I cannot face the evil until I have faced it in myself first and learned to forgive the people at the top.

Evil is a veil. Wipe the eyes and it becomes a lack of love. As they say with the great and powerful patience.

[azureangel]

The mind is an organ. It has its uses. And it's been successfully used to enslave us for thousands of years. I would choose ultimate consciousness over knowing any time. Philosophy to me, is mental masturbation. Getting past the mind's continual chatter is a great relief. Love, angel

[tien an]

I'm a great fan of Muhammad Ali, the boxer.

Once, while giving a lecture at a prestigious university in the US, someone (probably intent on heckling him), asked him to tell them the shortest poem he knows...

"Me,
We."

....was the answer, and it left the auditorium in stunned silence.

I apologise for reducing the discussion to this level, as I can't pretend to contribute in the same intellectual way as others have done, but I do feel that the answer to the OP's question is 'both'.

We must know ourselves and know of the system that would entrap us.
If we know both, then we can begin to work on a system that suits everyone; individually and as a community.
Both concepts are crucially important.

We all would like our individual desires catered for, to have the freedom to be ourselves and since we're not alone in the world, we have to ensure that our individual desires don't encroach on the freedom of others to do the same.

Anything else is part of a control mechanism...or am I simplifying things too much?

Good thread; thanks.

tian an.

[rowan22]

I'm a great fan of Muhammad Ali, the boxer.

Once, while giving a lecture at a prestigious university in the US, someone (probably intent on heckling him), asked him to tell them the shortest poem he knows...

"Me,
We."

....was the answer, and it left the auditorium in stunned silence.

I apologise for reducing the discussion to this level, as I can't pretend to contribute in the the same intellectual way as others have done, but I do feel that the answer to the OP's question is 'both'.

We must know ourselves and know of the system that would entrap us.
If we know both, then we can begin to work on a system that suits everyone; individually and as a community.
Both concepts are crucially important.

We all would like our individual desires catered for, to have the freedom to be ourselves and since we're not alone in the world, we have to ensure that our individual desires don't encroach on the freedom of others to do the same.

Anything else is part of a control mechanism...or am I simplifying things too much?

Good thread; thanks.

tian an.

Hi Tien.No I don’t think you are simplifying too much. If anything I was hoping for this discussion to go pretty much where you, and others have taken it. I feel that for all the Philosophy in the world mankind still falls victim to the bassist and most simple of deceptions.

We are shown endless material "things". Be they "cribs" or "bling" and we are relentlessly indoctrinated into equating (our) worth with their price.

The supplanting of one set of values with another is about primarily how we feel things will affect our “worth” in the eyes of others isn’t it. And a degree seems to have a similar cache however underserved in terms of our wisdom that may be.

[nioz]

nice quote:


All humans are dead except those who have knowledge
And all those who have knowledge are asleep, except those who do good deeds
And those who do good deeds are deceived, except those who are sincere,
And those who are sincere are always in a state of worry

[rowan22]

nice quote:


All humans are dead except those who have knowledge
And all those who have knowledge are asleep, except those who do good deeds
And those who do good deeds are deceived, except those who are sincere,
And those who are sincere are always in a state of worry

Good quote:) I think the worry, like "paranoia" is a heightened state of awareness

[nioz]

Good quote:) I think the worry, like "paranoia" is a heightened state of awareness

yes but you have to be balanced, in peace.

They want us to be fearfull and stressed out, the 'worry' part can be
seen like the 'caring' part.

[armoured_amazon]

Interested to ask people which one you would choose if it came to it?

Would it be better to "know" the ins and ands of the N.W.O, or would it be more important to know the way of being that sets you free?

I appreciate the inherent contradiction this will pose for many, I pose the question precisely for that reason.

Cheers:)

The latter, however it's easy to focus on the former. My mum always reminds me I focus on the darkness too much. :o

[rowan22]

The latter, however it's easy to focus on the former. My mum always reminds me I focus on the darkness too much. :o

You can't deny pain unless you want to lose your mind can you? I think personally that thinking positive, is a line we are fed to allow others to mistreat us. If we "pretend" everything is alright, maybe they can pretend to.

My mum is the same way. And having had my childhood I know why looking at reality scares her so much.

[rowan22]

yes but you have to be balanced, in peace.

They want us to be fearfull and stressed out, the 'worry' part can be
seen like the 'caring' part.


That's a good point. And I suppose the methods of operation of those who seek to negate feeling, rely on being able to characterise "feeling" as neurosis.

I just feel that in the end, for all their deviousness, the truth will out. And that gentleness will re establish its true nature through the necessity of happiness and the realty of the misery of seeing gentle awareness as a character flaw.

[unenlightened_waffle]

I'm a great fan of Muhammad Ali, the boxer.

Once, while giving a lecture at a prestigious university in the US, someone (probably intent on heckling him), asked him to tell them the shortest poem he knows...

"Me,
We."

....was the answer, and it left the auditorium in stunned silence.

I apologise for reducing the discussion to this level, as I can't pretend to contribute in the same intellectual way as others have done, but I do feel that the answer to the OP's question is 'both'.

We must know ourselves and know of the system that would entrap us.
If we know both, then we can begin to work on a system that suits everyone; individually and as a community.
Both concepts are crucially important.

We all would like our individual desires catered for, to have the freedom to be ourselves and since we're not alone in the world, we have to ensure that our individual desires don't encroach on the freedom of others to do the same.

Anything else is part of a control mechanism...or am I simplifying things too much?

Good thread; thanks.

tian an.

That is a fantastic poem!

When things get over complicated I feel they can only be a distraction.

I will go completely of topic and attach my favourite poem, by Rudyard Kipling:

IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

[rowan22]

The mind is an organ. It has its uses. And it's been successfully used to enslave us for thousands of years. I would choose ultimate consciousness over knowing any time. Philosophy to me, is mental masturbation. Getting past the mind's continual chatter is a great relief. Love, angel

If I'm honest Angel I'm with you:)

[steevo]

Interested to ask people which one you would choose if it came to it?

Would it be better to "know" the ins and ands of the N.W.O, or would it be more important to know the way of being that sets you free?

I appreciate the inherent contradiction this will pose for many, I pose the question precisely for that reason.

Cheers:)

If we all hadnt have been MANIPULATED into forgetting the true nature of our being (our ego got manipulated), then we wouldnt have had this EXPERIENCE of our own enslavement. The ego is the slaver. We all need to remember our true nature. BUT, we will ALWAYS be at risk of being manipulated. So the manipulation WILL HAPPEN again. We have to pass down the knowledge of our history via word of mouth (in families and strong communities). We must NEVER ever forget again....but we will, but to what EXTENT ? It all depends if we start to believe that we are our ego. But if we know what our true nature is, then hopefully this would include info about the part the ego plays.

[rowan22]

If we all hadnt have been MANIPULATED into forgetting the true nature of our being (our ego got manipulated), then we wouldnt have had this EXPERIENCE of our own enslavement. The ego is the slaver. We all need to remember our true nature. BUT, we will ALWAYS be at risk of being manipulated. So the manipulation WILL HAPPEN again. We have to pass down the knowledge of our history via word of mouth (in families and strong communities). We must NEVER ever forget again....but we will, but to what EXTENT ? It all depends if we start to believe that we are our ego. But if we know what our true nature is, then hopefully this would include info about the part the ego plays.



I agree Steevo. Which to my mind shows clearly that the way to overturn this cultivated infatuation with the ego and all it's trappings is to set our own heart free. For once I feel spirituality and reason are in total agreement as to the way this can best be done.

Psychology as a subject, study’s the science of mind and behaviours. But once we step into the applied field of Psychological therapy which is effective in making a person whole the framing of the picture alters drastically.

Objectifying as science does, has inadvertently contributed to eroding human beings of much of the individual and personal qualities of self.

Rational knowledge of the world is very useful and very valuable when it is accompanied by a profound sense of our own existence before the facts.

Our culture has again, I feel inadvertently via objectification left many defining their existence largely, or in some cases solely, by their ability to explain with current understanding who what and why we are human beings.

And to a large degree it has been very successful in doing so. Humanistic Psychology is a force for the liberation of human consciousness from the many forms of control which have beset it through dogmatic distortions of the original messages of spiritual purity many of them contained.

And this to me is central to the points you raise. Human beings learn what we live. If we live in cruelty and Barron indifference our lives become tainted by the lack of spiritual contact with one another we need to find the true essence of ourselves in connection with our fellow beings.

It is an often said and seldom truly understood imo phrase that "we are one" The essential nature of humankind is good and loving and compelled by its natural self to warmth and genuine care.

But to those whose heart has been blighted by greed and the worship of false idols of veneration the existence of this love is nothing more than the parochial echo of a by gone age.

I know you know it isn't, and I also know this. I know that power without love is tyranny. How would we "prove this" many Philosophers have eloquently shown far better than I can how the "natural man" tends towards just and life affirming systems of cooperative being, when he is free from external manipulation.

But the change is a change which after the knowledge has been gained relies on a change of heart for its meaning to be more than the fruit of one seasons labour.

Love, that most simple of human feelings is the antidote to all distortion. It is the force which infuses the body with the breath of life and wipes the eyes of the false veils of this myopic world and replaces them with the poignant truth of life, lived from the healing centre of our being.

It is so easy to be armoured against our own suffering isn't it? How many times have you been in pain and no one has cared? How many times have you been humiliated by that?

I know I have felt the sting of that many times, and the fine line, a knife edge, of do I continue to feel this? What good does my continuing to choose to suffer do for me? Why don’t I just turn my aguish into anger? WHY NOT TAKE "CONTROL" the desolate voice screams at us doesn't it?

And the only things that can persuade this voice, this anguish to dare to feel again is an experience of another human being whose courage and essence is strong in love and who is fully aware, aware at a spiritual level of being, and emotional level of being, a rational level of being and critically has the belief born of experience of the revelatory power of love to restore the human soul to itself.:)

Does this mean we have to be perfect?...no. In our imperfection is the shared reality of life lived outside of love. The anguish and pain unites us. It can also divide us, from one another and from ourselves. The same feelings which show us from the inside the healing way, are the same principles on the outside which make the culture an ally to life and love and not its enemy.

[steevo]

And the only things that can persuade this voice, this anguish to dare to feel again is an experience of another human being whose courage and essence is strong in love and who is fully aware, aware at a spiritual level of being, and emotional level of being, a rational level of being and critically has the belief born of experience of the revelatory power of love to restore the human soul to itself.:)



That's the power of love :)

Excellent post Rowan :)