What is the purpose of Freemasonry? [Archive] - David Icke's Official Forums

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lightgiver

23-10-2009, 08:37 PM

Any thoughts.?:)

rodin

23-10-2009, 08:38 PM

Destruction of Christianity and imposition of Jewish World Order

lightgiver

23-10-2009, 08:39 PM

Destruction of Christianity and imposition of Jewish World Order

Hi Rodin,

do you have any more knowledge on this matter,thanks:)

kadosh

23-10-2009, 08:42 PM

Yes, please share the details and do ensure the reliable primary sources are quoted.

rodin

23-10-2009, 08:47 PM

See Origins of Freemasonry thread

Also Juri Lina's books pretty good I think

many 'primary sources' themselves are hoaxed, like the Dead Sea Scrolls

But the observant can make connections between what was written then and what is happening now

Like the numbers 9 and 1717

lightgiver

23-10-2009, 08:51 PM

See Origins of Freemasonry thread

Also Juri Lina's books pretty good I think

many 'primary sources' themselves are hoaxed, like the Dead Sea Scrolls

Hi rodin,

Yes I have read and seen quite a lot,sometimes its hard who and what to believe in a world of deceit.

rodin

23-10-2009, 08:54 PM

Hi rodin,

Yes I have read and seen quite a lot,sometimes its hard who and what to believe in a world of deceit.

I never said it was easy. Not any easier with fluoride in your beer

edit

I look for hidden connections the power elite would rather we not find

lightgiver

23-10-2009, 08:59 PM

I never said it was easy. Not any easier with fluoride in your beer

edit

I look for hidden connections the power elite would rather we not find

Hidden,connections,power elite,and in our faces at the same time;)

rodin

23-10-2009, 09:10 PM

Hidden,connections,power elite,and in our faces at the same time;)

look at the numbers

9 - the number of conspirators who create the mystery power - the secret of its origins and purpose handed down thru generations - 9 copies, 9 bloodlines

1717 - the year Freemasonry was born out of a synthesis of mystery power and craft masonry and taken over

Jew World Order to be sparked off by 911 and 7/7

The numerical coincidence here is not incidental it is central

It was hidden but in old translations of documents that were published long before the events - century or more before - text is in the contemporary style of say Sir Walter Scott.

For me everything now clicks

My instinct is true - perhaps I have a higher authority to thank for that and I submit to that for I too feel the real 'mysterious power' of which the 9 spake

lightgiver

23-10-2009, 09:27 PM

look at the numbers

9 - the number of conspirators who create the mystery power - the secret of its origins and purpose handed down thru generations - 9 copies, 9 bloodlines

1717 - the year Freemasonry was born out of a synthesis of mystery power and craft masonry and taken over

Jew World Order to be sparked off by 911 and 7/7

The numerical coincidence here is not incidental it is central

It was hidden but in old translations of documents that were published long before the events - century or more before - text is in the contemporary style of say Sir Walter Scott.

For me everything now clicks

My instinct is true - perhaps I have a higher authority to thank for that and I submit to that for I too feel the real 'mysterious power' of which the 9 spake

Oh Yes ;)

On 9s,

Revolution 9 Backmask (backwards) by The Beatles - YouTube

The Beatles have mostly avoided the digital age so far. But that stance ends Sept. 9 when the Fab Four’s entire digitally remastered catalogue and Beatles:

rodin

23-10-2009, 10:00 PM

dressed to the nines

the cat o nine tails

the cat's 9 lives

were there not 9 Nazgul????

Sauron = ?

rearrange the following into well known false flags where the real was mixed with an 'exercise' in both occasions

91717

9 - the originators of the old pre-Freemasonry called The Mystery Force
1717 - the birth of Modern Freemasonry

phildee3

23-10-2009, 10:08 PM

rodin

23-10-2009, 10:29 PM

...to achieve the highest possible level of spiritual perfection - which is the purpose of all religions.

Whether or not it has ever achieved that, or the extent to which it has been corrupted, is another question.

Freemasonry was the daughter of the devil from the start. Craft unions before that were not.

phildee3

23-10-2009, 10:44 PM

Freemasonry was the daughter of the devil from the start. Craft unions before that were not.

Semantics.

rodin

23-10-2009, 10:56 PM

Semantics.

Living Dead

3 x 3 = 9

grandsecretary

23-10-2009, 11:16 PM

Any thoughts.?:)

PLEASE differentiate between the Moderns version of freemasonry and original Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie.

The purpose of each, is chalk and cheese.

What is the question?

What is the purpose of the Moderns form of freemasonry in which case I will stay out of the debate, or

What is the purpose of Free Masonrie, per se, in which case I will join in?

darketernal

23-10-2009, 11:44 PM

PLEASE differentiate between the Moderns version of freemasonry and original Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie.

The purpose of each, is chalk and cheese.

What is the question?

What is the purpose of the Moderns form of freemasonry in which case I will stay out of the debate, or

What is the purpose of Free Masonrie, per se, in which case I will join in?

GS I'm going to ignore the rest of what is written in this thread and ask a question of you. Given a topic I saw you engaging in within another thread, what is your branch of freemasonry's view (if you have a private view seperate from the official stance on this please include it) on the following topics:
British Israelism (lost tribes of Israel supposedly having traveled to the British Isles in the pre-Christian era)
The bloodline of Christ
Divine right of kings

Do any of these topics play a role in the doctrines of your order? This is purely a scholorly question on my part, to understand the views of your particular order better. If these topics are not of signifigance to you personally or your order, I will accept that answer if you give your word that your answer is honest.

grandsecretary

23-10-2009, 11:55 PM

GS I'm going to ignore the rest of what is written in this thread and ask a question of you. Given a topic I saw you engaging in within another thread, what is your branch of freemasonry's view (if you have a private view seperate from the official stance on this please include it) on the following topics:
British Israelism (lost tribes of Israel supposedly having traveled to the British Isles in the pre-Christian era)
The bloodline of Christ
Divine right of kings

Do any of these topics play a role in the doctrines of your order? This is purely a scholorly question on my part, to understand the views of your particular order better. If these topics are not of signifigance to you personally or your order, I will accept that answer if you give your word that your answer is honest.

These tribes have never been lost. I can say no more except this:

Thuatha de Danaan/Celtic Druids/the Céli Dé Masonic Priesthood/St Patrick of Armagh/St Columba of Iona/The King Priest Architect Athelstan/The Culdee Canons of St Peters at York/St Dunstan/Gundulf/Henry I/Kilwinning/Gilbert de Clare and the Knights Templar/and so on, and so forth.

This is a much simplified and truncated map, but please draw your own conclusions.

The United Grand Lodge of England branch is a minor, temporary diversion in the scheme of things.

The Grand Lodge of All England IS a religion dating from time immemorial, and pre-Davidic.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/StColumbaofIona.jpg

St Columba with his Culdee Monk's tonsure in the shape of the crescent moon, ear to ear.

"The Druidical College of Derry was converted into a Culdee Monastery. About the year 561 Columba and twelve companions left Ireland to build the Monastery of Icolmkill, and Masonic legend assigns the lectures of Harodim to this Monastery; they founded Colleges at Govan and Kilwinning." (SOURCE: The Druids and the Politics of Celtic Scholarship by John Toland 1670-1722)

"ICOLMKILL - An island situated near the Hebrides, to the south; once the seat of the Order of the Culdees, and containing the ruins of a monastery of St Columba, founded A.D. 565. It was here, according to tradition, that the rite of Heredom originated." (SOURCE: The Royal Masonic Cyclopaedia of History, Rites, Symbolism, and Biography by Kenneth R.H. MacKenzie, published by J.W. Boulton, New York, 1877)

"The Celtic Church in Ireland and in Scotland owed its origin not to Rome, but to Egypt and the East; its customs, traditions, methods, government came from Egypt through Athanasius of Alexandria, Hilary, Martin of Tours, Ninian, and through that religious channel, more than a little independent of Rome. The religious ideas of Egypt came to Scotland and Ireland and were absorbed easily into the tribal life of these countries. There is no doubt that the Celtic Church owed its ritual, its architecture, its worship and its law to Syria, Egypt and Palestine, and that its allegiance to Rome was slight." (SOURCE: Church life in the time of St Blane by J. Hutchison Cockburn)

"S. Ninian, carrying from S. Martin at Tours the enthusiasm for monasticism and culture of the East, and, later, S. Patrick, likewise imbued with monastic zeal which he had acquired both at Lerins and at Tours - returned to their respective countries, Scotland and Ireland, and founded religious settlements which, before many years should elapse, were calculated to wield an influence universally felt not only in the British Isles but on the Continent of Europe. We thus see that the influence of Asia Minor and of Egypt came to the early Celtic Church in Britain from Gaul in two streams which eventually met and merged into one; the first came from S. Martin through S. Ninian to Whithorn, in Galloway, whence, through S. Finnian it passed to Moville in Ireland and from Moville through S. Columba to Iona and the Celts of Scotland in 563 A.D. The second originated at Lerins and through S. Martin at Tours and S. Patrick it passed to Ireland, where it joined the other. There seemed to be a peculiar affinity between the tribal or clan system of the Celts and the monasticism of Egypt. The monasterium or collegium both in Egypt and in Celtic Ireland and Scotland consisted of a number of huts [sic lodges] which were dwellings of the clerical and lay monks and their families, for many of the latter were married." (SOURCE: The Celtic Church and the Influence of the East (1923) by the Rev. John Stirton, B.D., F.S.A. [Scot.] )

Now it is only in such districts as Druidism is known to have lingered in for generations that hereditary priestly descent in the Christian Church has been observed. In Brittany it prevailed until it was abolished by Hildebert, Archbishop of Tours, in 1127. At the end of that century Giraldus Cambrensis complains of it as a disgrace to Wales that sons should follow their fathers in the priestly office. Moreover, it is precisely in these localities where Druidism had been most strongly entrenched that we find the largest Culdee settlements. At Ripon and York they dwelt and flourished, in the time of Bede, and they worshipped at the Church of St. Peter in the latter city so late as the year 936. (SOURCE: The Mysteries of Britain: Secret Rites and Traditions of Ancient Britain Restored, 1905)
"... the Gothic Builders died out and their Lodges relaxed into small social gatherings, but in the North of England where there were Lodges in the jurisdiction of York, the Lodges continued the Harodim, or Masters' Fraternity, of which Gould in his large history affords ancient proofs." (SOURCE: The Arcane Schools, Part 6, Chapter XI, The System Termed High-Grade Speculative Freemasonry by John Yarker)

darketernal

24-10-2009, 12:01 AM

These tribes have never been lost. I can say no more except this:

Thuatha de Danaan/Celtic Druids/the Céli Dé Masonic Priesthood/St Patrick of Armagh/St Columba of Iona/King Athelstan/The Canons of St Peter at York/St Dunstan/Gundulf/Henry I/Gilbert de Clare and the Knights Templar/and so on, and so forth.

This is a simplified and truncated map, but please draw your own conclusions.

The United Grand Lodge of England branch is a minor diversion in the scheme of things.

Please keep in mind I know what all of that means. My grandfather was my childhood mentor was 33rd degree Scottish Rite and a Rosecrutian and my family claims to come from the line of Christ on both sides of my mother's family. I've been schooled rather extensively in "hidden" history.

I'll accept your answer to mean what I think it does regarding all three of my questions, as I know there are perhaps some things you have sworn not to say directly to non-members of your order. Thank you for the anwer.

grandsecretary

24-10-2009, 12:11 AM

You are very welcome. I have been as open as I can be. My family (O'Brien/Clatworthy) dates back to at least the time of St Patrick and the Abbey of Armagh. My personal involvement with the religion dates back to June 23rd 1948.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1058360238&postcount=18 updated.

lightgiver

24-10-2009, 12:48 AM

grandsecretary

24-10-2009, 12:30 PM

This is my best explanation:

Free Masonrie (the GLoAE) is the centre and source from which radiates the whole system of organized civil and ecclesiastical knowledge and practice, exerting a high standard of religion, justice and patriotism, and a code of moral teaching that will never cease to influence national character.

Rituals - ceremonies of birth, death, marriage, initiation, healing, harvest, or religious observance - are found in all known cultures, and appear to have been performed for tens of thousands of years. They speak to people's core emotions and reveal values that a society holds dearest. Because their expression is conventional and obligatory, they join the individual in solidarity with the group. As such, they are part of a society's "essential constitution". (SOURCE: "The Legal Function of Ritual" by Geoffrey P. Miller)

We join individuals, by a system of initiation, into a group with shared religious values. These values are Anglo-Saxon values: independence; equality; impartial justice; freedom; liberty; democracy under the constitution; the development of good character; right action; fair dealing.

Anglo-Saxon National Consciousness is based upon geography, shared institutions and traditions, and NOT on race. We have a reverence for God, and the immortality of the soul; we abstain from evil; and we behave valiantly.

True Free Masons are the Céli Dé.

lightgiver

24-10-2009, 07:28 PM

grandsecretary

24-10-2009, 07:31 PM

lightgiver

24-10-2009, 09:53 PM

Your guess is as good as mine. The important thing is that we know who we are, where we have come from, why we exist today, and where we are going.

We are about to announce a major expansion in Eastern Europe.

Explain further please GS?

Who are we?

Where have we come from?

Why do we exist today?

And where are we going?

Could you please expand on the expansion part ,

thanks,LG :)

kadosh

24-10-2009, 09:59 PM

Your guess is as good as mine. The important thing is that we know who we are, where we have come from, why we exist today, and where we are going.
GS - You were a member of UGLE for some 20 years so I do not think it is hard for you to guess about the Moderns.

grandsecretary

24-10-2009, 10:47 PM

GS - You were a member of UGLE for some 20 years so I do not think it is hard for you to guess about the Moderns.

After over 20 wasted years I am afraid that I really do believe that it is totally pointless, aimless, rudderless and totally meaningless.

"A compelling reason for silence amongst Masons is not so much a compulsion to adhere to their sacred vows, or a fear of macabre retribution from their fellows: it is more that they do not understand a word of the ceremonies they participate in, and their only fear is that people would laugh at the apparently pointless and silly rituals they perform...

Our biggest criticism of freemasonry is its sheer pointlessness. It does not know where it came from, no one seems to know what it is trying to achieve, and increasingly it seems improbable that it can have much of a future in a world that demands a clarity of purpose and benefit."
(SOURCE: Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas: Article, The Yorkshire Post, 11 May 1996)

Even after more than 13 years, I agree with Chris Knight and Bob Lomas.

Instead of having a go at me, why don't you do what I suggested and explain what your freemasonry IS?

I have explained ours in clear plain English. It's your turn, and a real opportunity without interference from me.

darketernal

24-10-2009, 11:08 PM

Gentlemen let's not let this thread turn into a pissing match, between rival orders. Let us behave as civilized gentlemen.

Kadosh, GS has stated what his views are on his branch of freemasonry and its purpose, and asked that you do the same for yours. That sounds reasonable.

darketernal

24-10-2009, 11:13 PM

kadosh

24-10-2009, 11:34 PM

GS - I was not having a go at you. I was only suggesting that you did not need to guess about UGLE freemasonry. My Free Masonry is not your Free Masonrie. Anyway, I have no problem with this UGLE explanation.

What is Freemasonry? - Freemasonry is a society of men concerned with moral and spiritual values. Its members are taught its precepts (moral lessons and self-knowledge) by a series of ritual dramas - a progression of allegorical two-part plays which are learnt by heart and performed within each Lodge - which follow ancient forms, and use stonemasons’ customs and tools as allegorical guides.

Freemasonry instills in its members a moral and ethical approach to life: it seeks to reinforce thoughtfulness for others, kindness in the community, honesty in business, courtesy in society and fairness in all things. Members are urged to regard the interests of the family as paramount but, importantly, Freemasonry also teaches and practices concern for people, care for the less fortunate and help for those in need.

boots

25-10-2009, 12:01 AM

1776

25-10-2009, 12:05 AM

AND within the higher degrees are Satanist who's only purpose is to manipulate people for the Illuminati.

.

Indeed.

A SATANIC-MASONIC WISH FROM MTV - YouTube

Merry Christmas, everyone! :rolleyes:

boots

25-10-2009, 12:14 AM

Indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU73pBvzEkk

Merry Christmas, everyone! :rolleyes:

Yep, The music and movie industry has at it's foundation masonry.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/atlantean_conspiracy/atlantean_conspiracy38.htm

The Masonic Movie and Music Industries

The “Blues” music and the very idea of “feeling blue” have been propagated by the Masons.
The first three degrees of Freemasonry are called the Blue Degrees.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/atlantean_conspiracy/images/atlant213.jpg (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_un.htm)
This is why, for instance, the UN logo is blue and divided into 33 sections. This is why the “blue laws” written on blue paper were introduced in the 18th and 19th centuries and Masonic constructions are planned on a “blue” print.

The sixth chakra of the human energetic system is blue, associated with the pineal gland, enlightenment and spiritual uplift.

Thus by reinforcing subconsciously through song and pop culture the idea that “blue” is a sad and depressing color, the Masons effectively nullify blue’s mystical place in our perception.

B.B. King, the King of “Blues” sang Got the Blues, The Other Might Blues, B.B. Blues, Why I Sing the Blues, Confessin’ the Blues, Beautician Blues, Blue Shadows, Blues For Me, Blues Stay Away, Shoutin’ the Blues, Everyday I Have the Blues, Lonely and Blue, Talkin’ the Blues, Blues at Midnight, How Blue Can You Get, Worryin’ Blues, Goin’ to Chicago Blues and Don’t Look Now but You’ve Got the Blues.

Damn coz I like the blues.:(

It's the frequency of music used today which imo carries a negative vibration.

There's a thread on here about this.

.

boots

25-10-2009, 12:19 AM

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26839&highlight=frequency+music+435

Sound and music consist of vibrations, the more vibrations per second, the higher the pitch. The unit for this is the Hertz, abbreviated Hz.

432 Hz is the natural "keynote" in the universe, as opposed to 440 Hz, which is the standard in the music nowadays.

lightgiver

25-10-2009, 12:21 AM

THE DISPUTES

The modern or speculative freemasonry took form in London in 1717. That modern freemasonry was founded by protestant ministers never initiated into a lodge, so, by profanes. Weishaupt denounced them in his articles, after the Masonic Convent of 1782:

“Who will show me the Mother Lodge? Those of London we have discovered to be self-erected in 1716. Ask for their archives. They tell you they were burnt. They have nothing but the wretched sophistications of the Englishman Anderson, and the Frenchman Desaguilliers. Where is the Lodge of York, which pretends to the priority, with their King Boudin, and the archives that he brought from the East? These too are all burnt. What is the chapter of old Aberdeen and its holy clericate? Did we not find it unknown and the Mason Lodges there the most ignorant of all the ignorant, gaping for instruction from our deputies? Did we not find the same thing at London ? And have not their missionaries been among us, prying into our mysteries, and eager to learn from us what is true Masonry? It is in vain therefore to appeal to judges; they are nowhere to be found; all claim for themselves the scepter of the Order; all indeed are on an equal footing. They obtained followers, not from their authenticity, but from their conductiveness, to the end which they proposed, and from the importance of that end. These are rejected by all good Masons, because incompatible with social happiness.”

And if it were not enough, some martinist, Martinez de Pasqually disciples, added to the attacks against The Illuminati from 1783. For example, they sent insulting pamphlets about The Illuminati to the widowed Marian duchess of Bavaria. In her IX Meeting of the Soirees of St. Petersburgo, the martinist Joseph de Maistre, an important member of the Order of the Beneficence Gentlemen of the Holy City of Jean Baptiste Willermoz, affirmed: “Illuminated are those guilty men that, nowadays, durst to conceive and organize in Germany, by means of the more criminal association, the horrible project to extinguish of Europe the Christianity and sovereignty. Virtuoso disciple Claude of Saint Martin has that same name because he does not declare the Christianity simply, but he does not work more than in order to soar to sublime heights of that divine law”.

http://www.dejanlucic.net/HISTORY%20OF%20THE%20ILLUMINATI.html

In 1797, Professor John Robinson warned Masonic leaders that the Illuminati had infiltrated their lodges.

Famous historian, English author Nesta Webster, in her book, World Revolution, published in the 1920's, [p. 78], said: "Whilst these events (early stages of the French Revolution of 1789) were taking place in Europe, the New World (America) had been Illuminized. As early as 1786, a Lodge of the Order (Illuminati) had been started in Virginia, and this was followed by fourteen others in different cities."

1) When did the Masons become a part of the Illuminati?

"On July 16, 1782, at the infamous Congress of Wilhelmsbad, near the city of Hanau in Hesse-Cassel. It was initiated by Ferdinand, Duke of Brunswick, Grand Master of the Order of Strict Observance." [Albert Mackey, Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, p. 1006.

2) What happened at this meeting?

Dr. Adam Weishaupt, and his right-hand man, Baron Adolf Von Knigge (both of whom were Masons at the time), attended the Congress of Wilhelmsbad; they had met with the representatives from the 23 Supreme Councils of the Masonic world and convinced them, after 30 sessions, to follow the Illuminati's 7-part Plan to the Creation of a New World Order.

3) How did they do this?

At the end of the 30 council meetings, the representatives of the Masonic world signed a blood contract, vowing that they would follow the Illuminati's 7-part Plan to the Creation of a New World Order.

4) Don't Any of the Masons know about these facts?

For the most part, no. About 95% of all Masons haven't a clue as to what is really going on in their own lodges. Only 30th Degree Masons and above may be allowed to know these secrets. Of those Masons who are 30th and above, only 5% of them know the full truth, because they have already been initiated into the Illuminati. Most of the time, an Illuminist will enter into the ranks of Masonry simply to continue the infiltration process. Eventually, this Illuminist will become one of the high ranking Masons and will, therefore, be able to better control the Masonic world because of his degree and power.

darketernal

25-10-2009, 12:29 AM

Boots I love the blues myself. I'm a SRV fan (Texas blues):

Stevie Ray Vaughan Tribute The Sky Is Crying - YouTube

In any event I won't dispute the point that music can massively influence the energy and emotions of an individual (or large numbers of people), as I believe it to be used for this purpose by esoteric initiates very extensively, however I remain unconvinced that this is directly Freemasonic, ei that it is called "Blues" becuase of the Masonic association with the Blue Lodge.

However is music used to influence people in a very direct way, both positively and negatively? Absolutely.

lightgiver

25-10-2009, 12:51 AM

To REVEREND G. W. SNYDER

Mount Vernon, September 25, 1798.

Sir: Many apologies are due to you, for my not acknowledging the receipt of your obliging favour of the 22d. Ulto, and for not thanking you, at an earlier period, for the Book 8 you had the goodness to send me

I have heard much of the nefarious, and dangerous plan, and doctrines of the Illuminati, but never saw the Book until you were pleased to send it to me. 9 The same causes which have prevented my acknowledging the receipt of your letter have prevented my reading the Book, hitherto; namely, the multiplicity of matters which pressed upon me before, and the debilitated state in which I was left after, a severe fever had been removed. And which allows me to add little more now, than thanks for your kind wishes and favourable sentiments, except to correct an error you have run into, of my Presiding over the English lodges in this Country. The fact is, I preside over none, nor have I been in one more than once or twice, within the last thirty years. I believe notwithstanding, that none of the Lodges in this Country are contaminated with the principles ascribed to the Society of the Illuminati. With respect I am &c.

Note: In a letter from Snyder (Aug. 22, 1798, which is in the Washington Papers ), it is stated that this book "gives a full Account of a Society of Free-Masons, that distinguishes itself by the Name of 'Illuminati,' whose Plan is to overturn all Government and all Religion, even natural."

1) Isn't the Masonic candidate told the full truth of Freemasonry's religion and god when they enter the Blue Lodge, where they receive their first three degrees?

"The Blue Degrees (the Blue Lodge degrees) are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally mislead by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understand them ."
[Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma, p. 819;]

boots

25-10-2009, 12:59 AM

Boots I love the blues myself. I'm a SRV fan (Texas blues):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWzZaWu4SCM&feature=fvw
In any event I won't dispute the point that music can massively influence the energy and emotions of an individual (or large numbers of people), as I believe it to be used for this purpose by esoteric initiates very extensively, however I remain unconvinced that this is directly Freemasonic, ei that it is called "Blues" becuase of the Masonic association with the Blue Lodge.

However is music used to influence people in a very direct way, both positively and negatively? Absolutely.

Hi darketernal,

SRV is one of my guitar heros.

Stevie Ray Vaughan - Texas Flood (Long version!) - YouTube

LOVE it.

OK I do agree that the writer stretched the truth there, with regards to "Blues" and "blue lodges". Yet When America it's self was founded by freemasons and Columbus, "who sailed with the cross of the Templars." and those who are masons within the music industry. Then you have a common theme running within the structure of society.

Sticking with the topic of the thread.

As you are well aware of the brotherhood and it's total control of the world. Would you agree Masonry is part of that?

.

.

hadabusa

25-10-2009, 02:50 AM

After over 20 wasted years I am afraid that I really do believe that it is totally pointless, aimless, rudderless and totally meaningless.

is the difference that big?
:eek:

hadabusa

25-10-2009, 02:52 AM

AND within the higher degrees are Satanist who's only purpose is to manipulate people for the Illuminati.

.

im afraid it goes beyond that.:(

grandsecretary

25-10-2009, 10:00 AM

is the difference that big?
:eek:

Chalk and Cheese.

lightgiver

25-10-2009, 06:36 PM

GS,:)

Check post 25.thanks

grandsecretary

25-10-2009, 06:43 PM

Working at the moment and away tomorrow. Wil reply Tuesday in detail. :)

lightgiver

25-10-2009, 06:47 PM

Working at the moment and away tomorrow. Wil reply Tuesday in detail. :)

Cheers GS :)

camreeno

27-10-2009, 07:24 AM

It's just an instrument of the Illuminati to carry out their plans. I think it might have more to do with collecting money to support the Illuminati since these lodges rack in a LOT of cash... I've heard digits of people's income go to those places, yet they go under the guise of "giving to charity" and the community and whatnot. Almost all members of Freemasonry are completely oblivious to the true purpose of it and only the few at the very highest echelons of the group control the whole thing and are working within the Illuminati/NWO. This explains why so many US presidents have been 33rd degree Freemasons.... The true nature of the group is just a quest for global governance, but most members go along and believe in God and follow rituals when they're really in a satanic institution...

You see the number 3 is extremely valuable to the elites because the number 3 represents perfection, because a triangle has 3 sides and comes in the shape of a pyramid (the pyramids of Egypt having been made with the assistance of Reptilians), with the pyramids symbolic of Replilians. So they value the number 33 because it's two 3's beside each, which again represents twins which are also symbolic to the Illuminati. You see the number 33 in various places like the 33 degrees of Freemasonly and even the 33 segments on the United Nations flag (created by them).

I think Freemasonry also has a lot to do with worship that feuls the Reptilians and manifests them into this reality better. The chanting and the rituals and things provide vibrational energy to the Reptilians and their interdemensional cohorts (I guess). The Reptilian hybrids are people with half human/half Reptilian dna and they need vibrational energy, as well as energy from human blood and vibrational energy from extreme fear (hence the sacrifices at places like Bohemian Grove). So the vast majority of Freemasons are totally oblivious to all this and think of their group as some sort of fraternity where you get together and conduct rituals for the hell of it, but little do they know they're all duped into a scheme to help out the Reptilians.

David Icke goes over all this so just pick up some of his books.

malison

27-10-2009, 07:27 AM

I think you should go see a doctor or psychiatrist .

It's just an instrument of the Illuminati to carry out their plans. I think it might have more to do with collecting money to support the Illuminati since these lodges rack in a LOT of cash... I've heard digits of people's income go to those places, yet they go under the guise of "giving to charity" and the community and whatnot. Almost all members of Freemasonry are completely oblivious to the true purpose of it and only the few at the very highest echelons of the group control the whole thing and are working within the Illuminati/NWO. This explains why so many US presidents have been 33rd degree Freemasons.... The true nature of the group is just a quest for global governance, but most members go along and believe in God and follow rituals when they're really in a satanic institution...

You see the number 3 is extremely valuable to the elites because the number 3 represents perfection, because a triangle has 3 sides and comes in the shape of a pyramid (the pyramids of Egypt having been made with the assistance of Reptilians), with the pyramids symbolic of Replilians. So they value the number 33 because it's two 3's beside each, which again represents twins which are also symbolic to the Illuminati. You see the number 33 in various places like the 33 degrees of Freemasonly and even the 33 segments on the United Nations flag (created by them).

I think Freemasonry also has a lot to do with worship that feuls the Reptilians and manifests them into this reality better. The chanting and the rituals and things provide vibrational energy to the Reptilians and their interdemensional cohorts (I guess). The Reptilian hybrids are people with half human/half Reptilian dna and they need vibrational energy, as well as energy from human blood and vibrational energy from extreme fear (hence the sacrifices at places like Bohemian Grove). So the vast majority of Freemasons are totally oblivious to all this and think of their group as some sort of fraternity where you get together and conduct rituals for the hell of it, but little do they know they're all duped into a scheme to help out the Reptilians.

David Icke goes over all this so just pick up some of his books.

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 08:48 AM

Explain further please GS?

Who are we?

Where have we come from?

Why do we exist today?

And where are we going?

Could you please expand on the expansion part ,

thanks,LG :)

Of course there were Free Masons in Ireland, Scotland and England prior to AD 926. It was King Athelstan who provided them with the invaluable right of congregation as a single, organised and constituted Masonic body in England.

Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie cannot be separated from its religious context, which has existed since time immemorial. The religious context of genuine Free Masonrie remains an essential mark of the true Free Mason.(SOURCE: Welcome page: Website of the Grand Lodge of All England)

Please see our webpage: Druids Culdees Masons

We have revived the original religious form of Free Masonrie in order to take it back to its original place in society, where it has been sorely missed.

It is the centre and source from which radiates the whole system of organized civil and ecclesiastical knowledge and practice, exerting a high standard of religion, justice and patriotism, and a code of moral teaching that will never cease to influence national character.

It is no concidence that debates on this forum over the past week or so have centred around the secret "Higher Orders" of Freemasonry which pre-date 1717 and were religious priestly orders.

Our freemasonry is a return from the meaningless world of allegory and the hotel bar to the world of strict moral values, measured by a truly religious way of life.

malison

27-10-2009, 09:07 AM

I can't understand GS how your constitution that has been going for ages so you say can now change itself on the run so to speak. I thought this was researched at length before you 'reponed' it.

What's next I wonder.

Please see our webpage: Druids Culdees Masons

We have revived the original religious form of Free Masonrie in order to take it back to its original place in society, where it has been sorely missed.

It is no concidence that debates on this forum over the past week or so have centred around the secret "Higher Orders" of Freemasonry which pre-date 1717 and were religious priestly orders.

Our freemasonry is a return from the meaningless world of allegory and the hotel bar to the world of strict moral values, measured by a truly religious way of life.

malison

27-10-2009, 09:08 AM

measured by a truly religious way of life

Can I ask GS what is your religion?

boots

27-10-2009, 09:20 AM

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 09:21 AM

You can but you may not.

malison

27-10-2009, 09:25 AM

You can but you may not.

Avoidance yet again. When will this man answer straight questions. He only chooses to answer those that do not embarrass him. OK by me though as it will not stop the asking of the questions.

Please tell me GS the address of the Grand Lodge of All England.

malison

27-10-2009, 09:27 AM

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 09:31 AM

What is the purpose of Freemasonry?

boots

27-10-2009, 09:55 AM

You mention on your website that The Grand Lodge of All England has a Library. I would be interested in visiting this but I cannot find an address for the Grand Lodge in York or anywhere else so:

* What is the address of the Grand Lodge of All England?
* What times does the Library open?
* Do you need to make an appointment?

Flogging a dead horse and going off topic.

How many warnings can a member get.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2463/fbanm5ff7d55.gif (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/fbanm5ff7d55.gif/)

:rolleyes:

zyphus

27-10-2009, 10:31 AM

Flogging a dead horse and going off topic.

How many warnings can a member get.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2463/fbanm5ff7d55.gif (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/fbanm5ff7d55.gif/)

:rolleyes:

I was wondering the same myself.

Nothing but sweeping abuse, ad hominem attacks and downright hostility comes from this individual.

It wouldn't be so bad if he had anything of interest to say at least once in a while.

catnap

27-10-2009, 11:02 AM

agneau

27-10-2009, 11:44 AM

May I ask why it is just men?

It is not: there are womens organisations that are, to all intents and purposes, exactly the same: The Order of Women Freemasons and The Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons

kadosh

27-10-2009, 01:30 PM

kadosh

27-10-2009, 01:45 PM

.... Nothing but sweeping abuse, ad hominem attacks and downright hostility comes from this individual.
I do not think that statement is correct. You do not know the truth about the background to the matter concerning the GS and GM of GLAE and how the GS has misled many people on various fora by his creative explanation of certain questions that avoid being truthful. If the truth was admitted the questions would go away. I too have asked valid questions and not received a proper reply or no reply at all. How can a question like where is the library of the GLAE be an ad hominen attack? It is a perfectly logical question.
Attempting to get someone else banned because they ask valid questions only shows that they do not understand a matter and is a simple way to avoid the questions. The questions will continue until proper answers are supplied and not the creative ones that only beg the question of why the truth is not being told. Not being truthful and being a member of the GLAE would seem to be incompatible if it is that system of Free Masonrie is based on religion.

agneau

27-10-2009, 03:08 PM

agneau - You may have missed my question to you on this forum. It was this - I recollect that you mentioned you were now an athiest - how come you have not resigned from your UGLE lodge yet? Can you explain that please?

Because I believe in a 'supreme being' - what I have chosen to term 'god'. That 'god' is in no way comparable to a theist version of a supernatural and distinct being or entity - it is, if you like, somewhat akin to a humanists viewpoint - man and superman - the idealistic goal of ourselves - and I beleive that this fulfills the essential criteria. I could, without reservation, retake my intiation and obligation without perjuring myself.

This, of course, is purely my interpretation and I have no doubts that others would consider it sophistry - but it works for me, being my truth.

stevepenny

27-10-2009, 03:19 PM

Because I believe in a 'supreme being' - what I have chosen to term 'god'. That 'god' is in no way comparable to a theist version of a supernatural and distinct being or entity - it is, if you like, somewhat akin to a humanists viewpoint - man and superman - the idealistic goal of ourselves - and I beleive that this fulfills the essential criteria. I could, without reservation, retake my intiation and obligation without perjuring myself.

This, of course, is purely my interpretation and I have no doubts that others would consider it sophistry - but it works for me, being my truth.

On what VSL would you swear your obligation?

agneau

27-10-2009, 03:30 PM

On what VSL would you swear your obligation?

Immaterial. Any or none. Placing my hand on a book does not make my promise any less sincere, nor place my honour, if I renege, more in danger.

stevepenny

27-10-2009, 03:55 PM

Immaterial. Any or none. Placing my hand on a book does not make my promise any less sincere, nor place my honour, if I renege, more in danger.

Volume of the Sacred Law

The Bible, referred to by Freemasons as the Volume of the Sacred Law, is always open at every Masonic meeting.

The Obligation of Freemasonry

The Obligations taken by Freemasons are sworn on or involve the Volume of the Sacred Law, or the book held sacred by those concerned. They are undertakings to help keep secret a Freemason's means of recognition, and to follow the principles of Freemasonry.

Source: United Grand Lodge of England.

Nothing here about affirmation!!

When asked in the EA Degree "In whom do you place your trust"; And you answered "In God"; were you lying?

Was the VSL on which you took your obligation the Christian Bible?

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 04:04 PM

What is the purpose of Freemasonry?

On this issue, it is a religious fraternity that requires trust based upon a Masonic Oath freely entered into, calling upon God as Witness to the truth, God as the Guarantor of the truth, and God as the Punisher in the event of infidelity.

A masonic Oath requires a belief in God. No God, no Oath, no Freemason.

keystone

27-10-2009, 04:10 PM

What is the purpose of Freemasonry?Me changing me.

Cheers

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 04:17 PM

Me changing me.

Cheers

Why do you need to be a freemason in order to change yourself? Who teaches you what to change to? May I assume that Freemasonry has changed you? If not, what is its purpose?

humason

27-10-2009, 04:24 PM

Volume of the Sacred Law

The Bible, referred to by Freemasons as the Volume of the Sacred Law, is always open at every Masonic meeting.

The Obligation of Freemasonry

The Obligations taken by Freemasons are sworn on or involve the Volume of the Sacred Law, or the book held sacred by those concerned. They are undertakings to help keep secret a Freemason's means of recognition, and to follow the principles of Freemasonry.

Source: United Grand Lodge of England.

Nothing here about affirmation!!

When asked in the EA Degree "In whom do you place your trust"; And you answered "In God"; were you lying?

Was the VSL on which you took your obligation the Christian Bible?

Steve,

I, for instance, am a Deist. My closest "guru" is Telihard de Chardin and the concept of an Omega-point God.

I took my obligation on a Bible. I can quote large chunks of the KJV verbatim, yet I am by no means a Christian. I could have just as easily taken it on a Koran, Talmud or the combined work of Karl Marx. I believe that FM teaches us that there is but one God, and the only difference between religions and personal opinions is how he has revealed himself to us.

Why would this be a problem?

I will however - even though I'd like to - never join the Knights Templar - I simply could not answer "Do you swear to take the sword in defense of the Christian Faith above all others" with a truthful yes - how can I, when I find any explanation or revelation of God equally valid? How would the GAOTU look upon me when I went to the lodge above?

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 04:32 PM

Steve,

I, for instance, am a Deist. My closest "guru" is Telihard de Chardin and the concept of an Omega-point God.

I took my obligation on a Bible. I can quote large chunks of the KJV verbatim, yet I am by no means a Christian. I could have just as easily taken it on a Koran, Talmud or the combined work of Karl Marx. I believe that FM teaches us that there is but one God, and the only difference between religions and personal opinions is how he has revealed himself to us.

Why would this be a problem?

I will however - even though I'd like to - never join the Knights Templar - I simply could not answer "Do you swear to take the sword in defense of the Christian Faith above all others" with a truthful yes - how can I, when I find any explanation or revelation of God equally valid? How would the GAOTU look upon me when I went to the lodge above?

This sums it up in a nutshell. IMHO, you simply do not believe in God. Constantly developing complexity and consciousness resembling the Logos of Christ is not believing IN God.

Who or what was acting as your witness when you took that Oath? Who or what was acting as the Guarantor to your fellows? Who or what is acting as the Punisher in the event of your infidelity? And what is the punishment?

To understand you, we need to know the answer to all four questions.

1)
2)
3)
4)

QUESTION: In Whom do you put your trust?
ANSWER: The Omega Point.

Is that what you said? Of course not. To make sure you got in, you said, "In God".

There is a passage in the ritual that says this: "Without evasion, equivocation or mental reservation of any kind." What did that mean to you?

I suggest that "The Omega Point" might just be considered to be a tad mental reservation, don't you? Did you have your fingers crossed?

humason

27-10-2009, 04:37 PM

This sums it up in a nutshell. You do not believe in God. Who or what is acting as your witness when you take that Oath? Who or what is acting as the Guarantor? Who or what is acting as the Punisher? And what is the punishment?

Do I deign your version of the "Masonic religion"? No? Then I'd appreciate if you didn't judge my beliefs.

My witness, guarantor and punisher is God. The God and architect of heavens, earth, space, stars, planets, of all the universes and the spaces between. The same God that was revealed to the Christians by Jesus the Nazarene, to Muslims by the prophet Muhammad, to Budists by Gautama Buddha, to Mormons as the God of whom the angel Moroni is the messenger, et cetera, et nauseam.

It is not my place to question his actions, decisions, or any way he might choose to punish or reward me when my immortal soul (yep, I believe in that one) leaves my body and either joins him in the lodge above or moves on to a new existence. God, for me, in an ever changing mystery, one whose depth, motives or likeness I can not comprehend - I can only make the most out of my life, and hope that it meets with his approval.

When asked, "In whom do you place your trust", for me, my absolutely, totally honest answer is "in God". It was good enough for my brethren, and if it's not good enough for you - well, that's too bad.

P.S.: I was married in a full Roman Catholic ceremony by dispensation of the Archbishop. I had two interviews with the local Curia, and provide references from two Catholics (in my case, a nun and a priest ;)) to get that approval. If I met with theirs, why would it bother me that my belief in God doesn't agree with what you purport to be the "right way of believing in God (TM)"?

kadosh

27-10-2009, 04:49 PM

Well I have to agree with the GS on this particular matter. Anything else mentioned is just being too creative in an attempt to justify the matter.

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 05:20 PM

It was not an attack on your beliefs humason, and I feel sure of this:

Either it was good enough for your brethren, in which case the situation is worse than I thought;

or, you said "In God", meaning "in the Omega Point", in which case they were not in a position to judge.

Did you discuss this, in depth, with them BEFORE you entered their Lodge?

I doubt it. It got you in though and that is all that really matters - isn't it?

stevepenny

27-10-2009, 05:42 PM

Steve,

I, for instance, am a Deist. My closest "guru" is Telihard de Chardin and the concept of an Omega-point God.

Hi humason;

Deism covers a broad range of beliefs; essentially Deists believe in God, although they do believe that he has abstained from interfering in our lives. Some believe in the immortality of the soul, and others do not.

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin was a Jesuit, trained in Theology; and although he fell out with the church over the subject of original sin; Broadly speaking I can see no harm in following his ideas.

I took my obligation on a Bible. I can quote large chunks of the KJV verbatim, yet I am by no means a Christian. I could have just as easily taken it on a Koran, Talmud or the combined work of Karl Marx.

I personally have a problem with this statement. Swearing an obligation on the Holy Bible implies a belief of the content therin. If you had chosen the Talmud then you would have been true to your chosen belief.

I will however - even though I'd like to - never join the Knights Templar - I simply could not answer "Do you swear to take the sword in defense of the Christian Faith above all others" with a truthful yes - how can I, when I find any explanation or revelation of God equally valid? How would the GAOTU look upon me when I went to the lodge above?

Why worry? Unless you believe in the immortality of the soul, the lectures you heard in your various degrees would be meaningless to you.

How do your square the statement "...we hope to ascend to the Grand Lodge above where the world's Great Architect lives and reigns forever".

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 06:10 PM

humason

27-10-2009, 06:16 PM

AND don't forget:

Who or what was acting as your witness when you took that Oath? Who or what was acting as the Guarantor to your fellows? Who or what is acting as the Punisher in the event of your infidelity? And what is the punishment?

To understand you, we need to know the answer to all four questions.

1)
2)
3)
4)

Should I be the same type of an ass as you are in answering Mike Martins and malisons questions? Hmm...

Okay, no.

God, as he has revealed himself to me.
God, as he has revealed himself to me.
God, as he has revealed himself to me.
I have no idea, that's for Him to decide.

And if anyone has a problem with that - watch me care :)

Now, you tell me - where is the library of the GLOAE? What is the registered address of the GLOAE?

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 06:26 PM

Should I be the same type of an ass as you are in answering Mike Martins and malisons questions? Hmm...

Okay, no.

God, as he has revealed himself to me.
God, as he has revealed himself to me.
God, as he has revealed himself to me.
I have no idea, that's for Him to decide.

And if anyone has a problem with that - watch me care :)

Now, you tell me - where is the library of the GLOAE? What is the registered address of the GLOAE?

We meet in the Crypt of the York Minster, or other ecclesiastical premises in York, and elsewhere, as required.

We are a Fraternal Society and so we do not need registered offices, only registered officers.

The extensive and growing library of The Grand Lodge of all England, along with other properties, is permanently housed in one of these ecclesiastical premises in York, although the Grand Secretary's office, from time to time, holds a large number of documents and manuscripts belonging to the library. Unlike the library of Grand Lodge of Scotland :) it is not a public library.

All correspondence should be addressed to the Grand Secretary. Contact details are on our website.

Well diverted - but unfortunately, we noticed you doing it too! :(

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 06:52 PM

QUESTION: Who or what was acting as your witness when you took that Oath?
ANSWER: God, as he has revealed himself to me.

QUESTION: Who or what was acting as the Guarantor to your fellows?
ANSWER: God, as he has revealed himself to me.

QUESTION: Who or what is acting as the Punisher in the event of your infidelity?
ANSWER: God, as he has revealed himself to me.

QUESTION: And what is the punishment?
ANSWER: I have no idea, that's for Him to decide.

The main problem is in your last answer: "I have no idea".

Because of your previous answers: Your brethren have no idea either.

To be a Sacred Oath you need ALL of the elements. The witness, the guarantor, the punisher and the punishment.

You can relax humason it isn't just you. ALL of your brethren have to believe in the same God, the same guarantee, the same punisher and the same punishment or else it is useless anyway.

The fact that the door has been open for many, many years, means that the Oaths that those who do believe in God have sworn, are also worthless. It is their fault, not yours.

No Sacred Oaths - no Freemasons, even if you have a library.

aronia

27-10-2009, 07:03 PM

Any thoughts.?:)

It`s how the the wealthy Black Nobility families has control the world since the beginning of time.

get over it...

Love & Peace
Aronia

humason

27-10-2009, 07:08 PM

To be a Sacred Oath you need ALL of the elements. The witness, the guarantor, the punisher and the punishment.

You can relax humason it isn't just you. ALL of your brethren have to believe in the same God, the same guarantee, the same punisher and the same punishment or else it is useless anyway.

The fact that the door has been open for many, many years, means that the Oaths that those who do believe in God have sworn, are also worthless. It is their fault, not yours.

No Sacred Oaths - no Freemasons, even if you have a library.

Oh, I knew what you were trying to say from the first post on this subject - back to "Masonry as a religion" (note: that's what the "mainstream" Masonry is trying to avoid like the plague) of the GLOAE... And honestly, I'm fine with that... But, I also disagree :) And I'm hapy my brethren do as well - if I wanted a "one religion" and "one world view", I'd have joined the Knights of Columbus or - well, the GLOAE. :)

kadosh

27-10-2009, 07:13 PM

All correspondence should be addressed to the Grand Secretary. Contact details are on our website.
Here are the details: http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_contact&Itemid=3

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 07:32 PM

Oh, I knew what you were trying to say from the first post on this subject - back to "Masonry as a religion" (note: that's what the "mainstream" Masonry is trying to avoid like the plague) of the GLOAE... And honestly, I'm fine with that... But, I also disagree :) And I'm hapy my brethren do as well - if I wanted a "one religion" and "one world view", I'd have joined the Knights of Columbus or - well, the GLOAE. :)

Well at last the message is getting through. Yes, a return to, or a revival of Free Masonry as the religion that it once was.

This is the stained glass window in the Abbey of Armagh depicting the Céli Dé Abbot, St Patrick of Armagh. The Emperor of Ireland, Brian Bóruma declared the Abbey of Armagh as the ecclesiastical and financial centre of Ireland. St Patrick, of course was not only the most powerful Abbot in Ireland, but was a royal descendant of Niall Noígíallach, the Irish King.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/StPatrickofArmagh.jpg

Bearing in mind the discussion that took place at the beginning of the week re: the Higher Orders, kadosh and others might like to take a close look at his breastplate, and appreciate its meaning.

There has been a great deal of new research into the origins of Free Masonrie in the last four years. There are many here, and elsewhere, who have been astonished by what they have found once the artificial boundaries of 1813, 1723 and 1717 have been laid down.

The truth is in this one, simple, stained glass window. The Sacred Stone at his feet? The Perpend Esler. The Sun appended to a golden chain about his neck. There is a lot more there if you go across to Armagh and take a close look.

stevepenny

27-10-2009, 07:57 PM

Should I be the same type of an ass as you are in answering Mike Martins and malisons questions? Hmm...

Okay, no.

God, as he has revealed himself to me.
God, as he has revealed himself to me.
God, as he has revealed himself to me.
I have no idea, that's for Him to decide.

And if anyone has a problem with that - watch me care :)

Now, you tell me - where is the library of the GLOAE? What is the registered address of the GLOAE?

Why not throw yourself on the mercy of UGLE and abide by their decision. If they allow you to remain then let us know; if they expel you, then let us know.

In your obligation (depending on the wording) you repeated; "...so help me God and help keep me steadfast in this my solemn obligation..".

Essentially you have deceived yourself, deceived your Brethren, and deceived God. You have no right to call yourself a Freemason.

Let me know how UGLE respond...assuming you have the moral courage to tell them the truth.

lightgiver

27-10-2009, 08:02 PM

It`s how the the wealthy Black Nobility families has control the world since the beginning of time.

get over it...

Love & Peace
Aronia

When was the Beginning of time?

Get Over what?

Love and peace LG :)

lightgiver

27-10-2009, 08:08 PM

Well at last the message is getting through. Yes, a return to, or a revival of Free Masonry as the religion that it once was.

This is the stained glass window in the Abbey of Armagh depicting the Céli Dé Abbot, St Patrick of Armagh. The Emperor of Ireland, Brian Bóruma declared the Abbey of Armagh as the ecclesiastical and financial centre of Ireland. St Patrick, of course was not only the most powerful Abbot in Ireland, but was a royal descendant of Niall Noígíallach, the Irish King.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/StPatrickofArmagh.jpg

Bearing in mind the discussion that took place at the beginning of the week re: the Higher Orders, kadosh and others might like to take a close look at his breastplate, and appreciate its meaning.

There has been a great deal of new research into the origins of Free Masonrie in the last four years. There are many here, and elsewhere, who have been astonished by what they have found once the artificial boundaries of 1813, 1723 and 1717 have been laid down.

The truth is in this one, simple, stained glass window. The Sacred Stone at his feet? The Perpend Esler. The Sun appended to a golden chain about his neck. There is a lot more there if you go across to Armagh and take a close look.

Hi GS,

Very interesting :)

Hoshen/Choshen is a Hebrew word usually translated as breastplate; in English language contexts it refers to a specific breastplate – the sacred breastplate worn by the The High Priest for the Israelites, according to the Book of Exodus. In the biblical account, the breastplate is termed the breastplate of judgement, because the Urim and Thummim, which were used in divination, were placed within it.

According to the description in Exodus, this breastplate was attached to the Ephod, by gold chains/cords tied to the gold rings on the Ephod's shoulder straps, and by blue ribbon tied to the gold rings at the lower parts of the Ephod; the biblical description states that the breastplate was also to be made from the same material as the Ephod - embroidered linen - and was to be a square, a cubit in width, two layers thick, and with four rows of three engraved gems each embedded upon it, each jewel being framed in gold. The description states that the square breastplate was to be formed from two equal rectangular pieces of cloth - suggesting that its appearance was similar to a backless waistcoat, with a pouch inside to contain the Urim and Thummim. The term for the breastplate - Hoshen - appears to be connected either to its function or to its appearance; some scholars think that it is probably derived from hasuna, meaning beautiful, while others think that it is more likely to derive from sinus, meaning a fold for containing something.

According to the Talmud, the wearing of the Hoshen atoned for the sin of errors in judgement on the part of the Children of Israel.

Priestly breastplate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://secretsun.blogspot.com/2008/03/not-so-secret-history-of-saint-patricks.html

All roads lead to Egypt in one shape or another. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7428&page=21

http://www.annomundi.com/history/trojan_london.htm http://www.moseshand.com/studies/planted.htm

humason

27-10-2009, 08:08 PM

Why not throw yourself on the mercy of UGLE and abide by their decision. If they allow you to remain then let us know; if they expel you, then let us know.

In your obligation (depending on the wording) you repeated; "...so help me God and help keep me steadfast in this my solemn obligation..".

Essentially you have deceived yourself, deceived your Brethren, and deceived God. You have no right to call yourself a Freemason.

Let me know how UGLE respond...assuming you have the moral courage to tell them the truth.

Okay, what are you talking about, and where the fuck do you get off questioning my morals? feel free to go fornicate with a webbed footed friend, or what ever Peter usually says.

When I took my oath I believed in what I was saying. It's between me and my God to sort out the details in my opinion - and noone asked me "who is your god", only if I believe in Him. Which I do. As the great creator, architect, rewarder, punisher, judge and arbiter. As a God of all, eternal and infinite in his wisdom. As the One God of the universe, revealed to other people (and if they're around, non-people) in their own way.

If anyone has a problem with that, they can strip me of my membership and shove my MM certificate up their rear end.

And I'd be more than happy to do that - although, wait... we don't discuss religion in the lodge?
Do I believe in God, and put my trust and faith in him? Yes. Without reservation.

Now you go and make sense of that. It makes sense to me, my Brothers, my Grand Lodge, the UGLE and the rest of the regular Masnory on the planet. And if it doesn't make sense to you, well.... To G*o damn bad :)

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 08:10 PM

Why not throw yourself on the mercy of UGLE and abide by their decision. If they allow you to remain then let us know; if they expel you, then let us know.

In your obligation (depending on the wording) you repeated; "...so help me God and help keep me steadfast in this my solemn obligation..".

Essentially you have deceived yourself, deceived your Brethren, and deceived God. You have no right to call yourself a Freemason.

Let me know how UGLE respond...assuming you have the moral courage to tell them the truth.

Steve, I think that it is unfair to shoot the messenger. This man is not in the minority. The door was opened up for him, and IMHO it was inevitable.

You and I are Christians. We have a pretty clear idea of Who or What God is. This man has been allowed, I would say encouraged, to use mental reservation, and would be silly to do anything other than to enjoy his freemasonry. It's too late. There are no secrets left in the Moderns system of freemasonry anyway, so no danger there.

Why should he be the one to stick his head above the parapet? So long as he doesn't have the audacity to try to extract the urine from those of us who have.

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 08:18 PM

Hi GS,

Very interesting :)

Hoshen/Choshen is a Hebrew word usually translated as breastplate; in English language contexts it refers to a specific breastplate – the sacred breastplate worn by the The High Priest for the Israelites, according to the Book of Exodus. In the biblical account, the breastplate is termed the breastplate of judgement, because the Urim and Thummim, which were used in divination, were placed within it.

According to the description in Exodus, this breastplate was attached to the Ephod, by gold chains/cords tied to the gold rings on the Ephod's shoulder straps, and by blue ribbon tied to the gold rings at the lower parts of the Ephod; the biblical description states that the breastplate was also to be made from the same material as the Ephod - embroidered linen - and was to be a square, a cubit in width, two layers thick, and with four rows of three engraved gems each embedded upon it, each jewel being framed in gold. The description states that the square breastplate was to be formed from two equal rectangular pieces of cloth - suggesting that its appearance was similar to a backless waistcoat, with a pouch inside to contain the Urim and Thummim. The term for the breastplate - Hoshen - appears to be connected either to its function or to its appearance; some scholars think that it is probably derived from hasuna, meaning beautiful, while others think that it is more likely to derive from sinus, meaning a fold for containing something.

According to the Talmud, the wearing of the Hoshen atoned for the sin of errors in judgement on the part of the Children of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoshen http://secretsun.blogspot.com/2008/03/not-so-secret-history-of-saint-patricks.html

All roads lead to Egypt in one shape or another.

Well, here it is, the story of the King Priests of Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales, and the breastplate of the Harodim in one simple stained glass window. It is all there if you want to look, and it is all there too, if you want to see. Do you think they dare look?

And thank you for the link to that blog. Quite remarkable parallels.

lightgiver

27-10-2009, 08:30 PM

Well, here it is, the story of the King Priests of Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales, in one simple stained glass window. It is all there if you want to look, and it is all there too, if you want to see.

Do you have any Info on the window,IE age and maker.

I am sure there is a lot more to it,

Cheers :)

aronia

27-10-2009, 08:33 PM

When was the Beginning of time?

Get Over what?

Love and peace LG :)

I don`t know. But the first secret societys was create 50000 years ago.

Over that they want to control us and create a one world govermmet.

Eric Jon Phelps once said we shall all die of something.

Why not die for the fight for our freedom

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 08:36 PM

Do you have any Info on the window,IE age and maker.

I am sure there is a lot more to it,

Cheers :)

Yes I agree.

No, but I will do some research tomorrow. I will make a call to Armagh in the morning.

IMHO it is a very important piece of religious Masonic art. I would also want to follow up the references used for the design. I will see if we can have access to the Abbey Cartulery.

lightgiver

27-10-2009, 08:39 PM

I don`t know. But the first secret societys was create 50000 years ago.

Over that they want to control us and create a one world govermmet.

Eric Jon Phelps once said we shall all die of something.

Why not die for the fight for our freedom.

50,000 yrs ago,enlighten me.

We have been controlled for thousands of years.;)I am over it.

FREEDOM,

I agree,

all the best.:)

lightgiver

27-10-2009, 08:40 PM

Yes I agree.

No, but I will do some research tomorrow. I will make a call to Armagh in the morning.

IMHO it is a very important piece of religious Masonic art. I would also want to follow up the references used for the design. I will see if we can have access to the Abbey Cartulery.

I look forward to it,

cheers :)

decim

27-10-2009, 09:26 PM

GS have you a link to a high res image of the window?

I have trawled & drawn a blank.

stevepenny

27-10-2009, 09:31 PM

Okay, what are you talking about, and where the fuck do you get off questioning my morals?

Morals? Are you sure you know the meanings of the word? I think the words are "..devoid of all moral worth, and unfit to enter this Lodge, or any other warranted Lodge, or society of men, who hold honour and virtue above the mere external advantages of rank and fortune...".

When I took my oath I believed in what I was saying. It's between me and my God to sort out the details in my opinion - and noone asked me "who is your god", only if I believe in Him. Which I do. As the great creator, architect, rewarder, punisher, judge and arbiter. As a God of all, eternal and infinite in his wisdom. As the One God of the universe, revealed to other people (and if they're around, non-people) in their own way.

I'm sure even you can see the problem with that statement when placed next to your previous statements.

If anyone has a problem with that, they can strip me of my membership and shove my MM certificate up their rear end.
And I'd be more than happy to do that - although, wait... we don't discuss religion in the lodge?

If you would like to pass me your name and Lodge number i'll do just that :rolleyes:

Do I believe in God, and put my trust and faith in him? Yes. Without reservation.

So that would make all your previous statements lies....

Now you go and make sense of that. It makes sense to me, my Brothers, my Grand Lodge, the UGLE and the rest of the regular Masnory on the planet. And if it doesn't make sense to you, well.... To G*o damn bad :)

Oh i've already made sense of you ;) Can I suggest a period of reflection so that you might rationalise your troubled mind.

stevepenny

27-10-2009, 09:34 PM

Steve, I think that it is unfair to shoot the messenger. This man is not in the minority. The door was opened up for him, and IMHO it was inevitable.

I just thank God that we do not have this problem here in Scotland; at least not a far as I am aware.

We don't call it 'God's country' for nothing :D

decim

27-10-2009, 09:36 PM

humason & agneau busted, who's next maleficson?

stevepenny

27-10-2009, 09:39 PM

humason & agneau busted, who's next maleficson?

We're moving on to the Free-Mechanics next week :D..

Are you a Freemechanic (Moderns, Post Mk3 Escort) or a Free Mekanic (Ancients, Pre-Model T)?

:D:D

keystone

27-10-2009, 09:54 PM

We're moving on to the Free-Mechanics next week :D..

Are you a Freemechanic (Moderns, Post Mk3 Escort) or a Free Mekanic (Ancients, Pre-Model T)?

:D:DDon't start finding acorns under the bonnet after a service then or Joe will be back. :D

decim

27-10-2009, 10:08 PM

The Freemechanics are sacrosanct, we predate all things mechanical, the 'Model T' is a jesuit heresy, as illustrated by one of our Grand Lubricated Masters, none other than Isambard Kingdom Brunel & his treatise 'Americans What's the Point?'(1833, Golden Spanner Publishing, of Whitby)

The 'Escort' is the abomination of the desolation, the Great Whore of Stroker Cranks. 'The unmentionable' within Freemechanictry.

We're moving on to the Free-Mechanics next week :D..

Are you a Freemechanic (Moderns, Post Mk3 Escort) or a Free Mekanic (Ancients, Pre-Model T)?

:D:D

stevepenny

27-10-2009, 10:36 PM

....'Americans What's the Point?'...

A very wise old sage once told me "You can tell an American................but not much" :D

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 11:07 PM

GS have you a link to a high res image of the window?

I have trawled & drawn a blank.

I am afraid that I haven't. I will call the cathedral tomorrow, and if it is seems that it is going to be worth it, I will fly over and take some pics.

decim

27-10-2009, 11:17 PM

That's dedication.

Awesome GS.

I am afraid that I haven't. I will call the cathedral tomorrow, and if it is seems that it is going to be worth it, I will fly over and take some pics.

thetonic

27-10-2009, 11:38 PM

The main problem is in your last answer: "I have no idea".

Because of your previous answers: Your brethren have no idea either.

To be a Sacred Oath you need ALL of the elements. The witness, the guarantor, the punisher and the punishment.

Only the demonicly influenced concern themselves with 'punishment' and 'what your punishment must be'

The true authour of life , the Creator has no need or concern to 'punish'. Youre confusing the Creator with a phony deity or consciousness often referred to as Lucifer that likes to pretend it has created your spirit when in reality it is just part of its greater deception that its seems more than most of you 'Masons' have fell for

Your dogma is your own undoing. You will judge yourselves based on false interpretations of 'God'

That is the truth of the matter.

grandsecretary

27-10-2009, 11:51 PM

Only the demonicly influenced concern themselves with 'punishment' and 'what your punishment must be'

The true authour of life , the Creator has no need or concern to 'punish'. Youre confusing the Creator with a phony deity named Lucifer that likes to pretend it has created your spirit when in reality it is just part of its greater deception that its seems more than most of you 'Masons' have fell for

Your dogma is your own undoing. You will judge yourselves based on false interpretations of 'God'

That is the truth of the matter.

There is no punishment. Lie, cheat, steal, rape, mame, kill. There is no need or concern to punish.

I suggest you invest in Smith and Wesson!

barney_rubble

28-10-2009, 01:13 AM

A very wise old sage once told me "You can tell an American................but not much" :D

Here in Canada we have a saying, "You can tell an American from a mile away ...... but up close you can't tell him a thing."

1776

28-10-2009, 02:27 AM

Here in Canada we have a saying, "You can tell an American from a mile away ...... but up close you can't tell him a thing."

Why is that?

For all the professed Freemasons here in this thread, I have a question:

Why did you become a Freemason?

and

Why have you continued your Freemasonry?

and

What are your feelings in regards to Satanism and the Kabbalah?

Thanks in advance for your time!

barney_rubble

28-10-2009, 02:45 AM

For all the professed Freemasons here in this thread, I have a question:

Why did you become a Freemason?

I was looking for something more to life.
Something more than waking, eating, working, eating, and sleeping day after day after day.

and

Why have you continued your Freemasonry?

Because I like what I have found in Freemasonry

and

What are your feelings in regards to Satanism and the Kabbalah?

I have no feelings on the above

Thanks in advance for your time!
You are welcome.

1776

28-10-2009, 02:51 AM

I was looking for something more to life.
Something more than waking, eating, working, eating, and sleeping day after day after day.

Because I like what I have found in Freemasonry

I have no feelings on the above

You are welcome.

You wish to not comment about the third question, or you personally know nothing about either?

And surely there is more to life than just waking, eating, working, eating, and sleeping.... so why Freemasonry, what lead you to become a Mason? Your answer was very vague and repressed.

What have you found in Freemasonry that has been suitable to you enough for you keeping your membership as one?

Thanks, again, for your answers and your time. I really do appreciate it.

decim

28-10-2009, 03:55 AM

'Leave it alone or it'll drop off'..immortal words from a sage source & coincidentally, applicable to America...along with 'Don't run with scissors!!'....the'll nor ken.

A very wise old sage once told me "You can tell an American................but not much" :D

humason

28-10-2009, 07:12 AM

I just thank God that we do not have this problem here in Scotland; at least not a far as I am aware.

We don't call it 'God's country' for nothing :D

Oh my... A bible thumper.
Right, that sets it clear in my mind. Sure you won't want to emigrate to GLAOE? :S

I don't see anyone around me in Lodge being a barking, Jahweh-fearing, Christ-worshiping Catholic/Christian, whish is what you seem to take as the norm... Perhaps we should all be moved to LDH? :)

My, my, such... patience, eh stevepenny? If you don't believe in the Christian God, are you allowed to believe in a God from one of the other religions of the book, or are only the non-wholly-traditional beliefs the ones there's a problem with?

stevepenny

28-10-2009, 07:21 AM

Oh my... A bible thumper.
Right, that sets it clear in my mind. Sure you won't want to emigrate to GLAOE? :S

And your point is?

humason

28-10-2009, 08:24 AM

And your point is?

That last I checked, the question is "Do you believe in God" - or, to be accurate, "In whom do you place your trust", not "Do you believe in God of the religions of the Book", or, even worse, "Do you place your trust in the vengeful old bastard from the Old Testament" and/or "Do you believe in God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all the saints in heaven, and the infallibly of the Pope".

And if the person in the street stops me, and asks me "Do you believe in God", my answer would always be "yes".

grandsecretary

28-10-2009, 10:01 AM

stevepenny

28-10-2009, 10:06 AM

That last I checked, the question is "Do you believe in God" - or, to be accurate, "In whom do you place your trust", not "Do you believe in God of the religions of the Book", or, even worse, "Do you place your trust in the vengeful old bastard from the Old Testament" and/or "Do you believe in God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all the saints in heaven, and the infallibly of the Pope".

And if the person in the street stops me, and asks me "Do you believe in God", my answer would always be "yes".

I think you are missing the point :rolleyes:

The act of swearing on any Holy Book implies a commitment to that which is contained within. I can't find the UK legal definition so i'll use the American one instead to illustrate this:

“Before testifying, every witness shall be required to declare that the witness will testify truthfully, by oath or affirmation administered in a form calculated to awaken the witness’ conscience and impress the witness’ mind with the duty to do so.” If you want the oath to be maximally effective, then it is indeed entirely true that “all that matters is what any individual holds to be his holiest book.” That book is the one that will most impress the oathtaker’s mind with the duty to comply with the oath.

It would therfore be an affront for a Muslim to take an oath on the Bible, or for a Christian to take an oath on the Qur'an. It isn't a question as to whether society finds the act usefull, or even if an oath once taken means that the truth will be told; it is an act currently enshrined in both our legal system and in our society.

Jews do not take their Masonic oaths on the New Testament, that would be both spiritually and morally wrong and imply a belief in Jesus, a person not held in any high regard by the Jews. Instead they are true to their faith and use the Old Testament, or the Talmud.

At the opening of all Christian Masonic Lodges (that I have visited) the following prayer is said:

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

This as you probably know is from the 133 Psalm and is known as part of the Songs of the Ascent of David, and is taken directly from the New Testament. Jewish Lodges do not use this prayer, nor do Muslim Lodges; and the reason; it doesn't feature in their Holy Book.

I am not a Bible Thumper, neither am I am evengelist, nor a left-footer, a God Botherer or any of the other prosaic terms heaped upon those of us who believe in God.

Please don't think this is a personal attack; nothing could be further from the truth; but as GS said, you are one of the first toput your head above the parapet. :)

humason

28-10-2009, 10:29 AM

I think you are missing the point :rolleyes:

Actually, I we're missing each others point ;)

Once more:

I don't care what book I took my oath on - I would have taken it on ANY holy book - as I believe that there is but ONE God, and the holy books we use in our religions are different manifestations or revelations of that one God. :) And I would consider an oath I took on ANY holy book just as binding.

agneau

28-10-2009, 10:40 AM

Volume of the Sacred Law

The Bible, referred to by Freemasons as the Volume of the Sacred Law, is always open at every Masonic meeting. - This is not quite correct is it?

The Obligation of Freemasonry

The Obligations taken by Freemasons are sworn on or involve the Volume of the Sacred Law, or the book held sacred by those concerned. They are undertakings to help keep secret a Freemason's means of recognition, and to follow the principles of Freemasonry.

Source: United Grand Lodge of England.

Nothing here about affirmation!! - I Never mentioned 'affirmation' - I took an oath. Oaths are not exclusive to deists. Nor, come to that, is the word 'sacred' - I believe that a sacred oath can be taken by an atheist.

When asked in the EA Degree "In whom do you place your trust"; And you answered "In God"; were you lying? Nope..

Was the VSL on which you took your obligation the Christian Bible? -Yes.
.

humason

28-10-2009, 10:50 AM

I am not a Bible Thumper, neither am I am evengelist, nor a left-footer, a God Botherer or any of the other prosaic terms heaped upon those of us who believe in God.

Please don't think this is a personal attack; nothing could be further from the truth; but as GS said, you are one of the first toput your head above the parapet. :)

Sorry about that one :( It wasn't proper. Yet, I still see no issue with my oath. The question is not "Do you believe in God of the Bible", but "Do you believe in God".

You know, this guy:

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/glossary/images/gaotu.jpg

One God, the Father?

grandsecretary

28-10-2009, 11:00 AM

Sorry about that one :( It wasn't proper. Yet, I still see no issue with my oath. The question is not "Do you believe in God of the Bible", but "Do you believe in God".

You know, this guy:

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/glossary/images/gaotu.jpg

One God, the Father?

Yes it is Blake's representation of Urizen, Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, THE Great Architect of the Universe, William Stukeley's God, the God that was rejected by Dr Anderson and his Moderns in 1738 in favour of the Rosicrucian Enlightenment Masonic God "a supreme being".

"Freemasonry took a run and ran itself out of breath through the folly of its members." (SOURCE: The Diaries of William Stukeley)

humason

28-10-2009, 11:11 AM

Yes it is Blake's representation of Urizen, Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, THE Great Architect of the Universe, William Stukeley's God, the God that was rejected by Dr Anderson and his Moderns in 1738 in favour of the Rosicrucian Enlightenment Masonic God "a supreme being".

Okay, I give up :) We're arguing - as far as I'm concerned - the semantics of God of the Bible being the One God of the Universe or the One God of the Universe being the God of the Bible.

grandsecretary

28-10-2009, 11:14 AM

humason we are debating the very essence of Freemasonry.

humason

28-10-2009, 11:23 AM

humason we are debating the very essence of Freemasonry.

Which, for me, and the UGLE, is a belief in a supreme being. :)
Which, for my friends, and the LDH ISN'T a belief in a supreme being.

What's your point? There's many flavors of Masonry...

grandsecretary

28-10-2009, 11:31 AM

Which, for me, and the UGLE, is a belief in a supreme being. :)
Which, for my friends, and the LDH ISN'T a belief in a supreme being.

What's your point? There's many flavors of Masonry...

Three:

The Free Masonrie of Ancient Ireland, Scotland and York - God and the immortality of the soul;

The Moderns - "a supreme being"

The Grand Orients - personal choice, including atheism.

There are many flavours of Freemasonry, and when we post here we should make it clear that none of us speaks for Freemasonry, per se we speak for our flavour.

malison and kadosh in particular should appreciate this, and I hope that one day they will.

Each to his own, each system has a value, nobody owns Freemasonry.

humason

28-10-2009, 11:37 AM

Three:

The Free Masonrie of Ancient Ireland, Scotland and York - God and the immortality of the soul;

The Moderns - "a supreme being"

The Grand Orients - personal choice, including atheism.

There are many flavours of Freemasonry, and when we post here we should make it clear that none of us speaks for Freemasonry, per se we speak for our flavour.

malison and kadosh in particular should appreciate this, and I hope that one day they will.

Each to his own, each system has a value, nobody owns Freemasonry.

Correct :) And I've never said anything else - look back, I've never said that UGLE is "The Only Right Way (TM)" :)

stevepenny

28-10-2009, 11:37 AM

The Bible, referred to by Freemasons as the Volume of the Sacred Law, is always open at every Masonic meeting. - This is not quite correct is it?

It is according to UGLE. Have you ever attended a tyled lodge meeting where the VSL and Square and Compasses are not displayed?

Nothing here about affirmation!! - I Never mentioned 'affirmation' - I took an oath. Oaths are not exclusive to deists. Nor, come to that, is the word 'sacred' - I believe that a sacred oath can be taken by an atheist.

You are entitled to your opinions :) Sacred can be defined as "...of or relating to religion: not secular or profane...". Deism is secular (...not belonging to a religious organisation or congregation...), so how therefore can an oath when taken by a Deist, be considered sacred?

When asked in the EA Degree "In whom do you place your trust"; And you answered "In God"; were you lying? Nope..

Was the VSL on which you took your obligation the Christian Bible? -Yes.

Why? The point is the same that I have made to humason; you simply cannot take an oath on a Holy Book that contains scripture that you do not believe.

Assuming you are a Master Mason; at your 'raising' you were made to portray the death of our master Hiram Abiff. Therefore;

1. Who is Hiram Abiff?
2. What or who does he represent?
3. What is the allegory of the ritual?
4. What is the significance of the 'Lion Paw (or grip)'?

Assuming you understood or were taught the allegory of the ritual, your own conclusions will hopefully answer your own points.

stevepenny

28-10-2009, 11:43 AM

Sorry about that one :( It wasn't proper. Yet, I still see no issue with my oath. The question is not "Do you believe in God of the Bible", but "Do you believe in God".

No apology needed; i'm just glad we're back to a serious civilised debate. If I have offended you then please accept my apologies :)

Unfortunately the Genie is out of the bottle and the subject is just to big for my tired brain to cope with at work today. I'll try to post on the subject later :)

This is the Masonic oath from the Edinburgh Register House Manuscript dated 1696.

By god himself and you shall answer to god when you shall stand nakd before
him, at the great day, you shall not reveal any pairt of what you shall hear or
see at this time whither by word nor write nor put it in wryte at any time nor
draw it with the point of a sword, or any other instrument upon the snow or
sand, nor shall you speak of it but with an entered mason, so help you god.

Its beauty lies in its simplicity.

humason

28-10-2009, 11:47 AM

It is according to UGLE. Have you ever attended a tyled lodge meeting where the VSL and Square and Compasses are not displayed?

You are entitled to your opinions :) Sacred can be defined as "...of or relating to religion: not secular or profane...". Deism is secular (...not belonging to a religious organisation or congregation...), so how therefore can an oath when taken by a Deist, be considered sacred?

Why? The point is the same that I have made to humason; you simply cannot take an oath on a Holy Book that contains scripture that you do not believe.

Assuming you are a Master Mason; at your 'raising' you were made to portray the death of our master Hiram Abiff. Therefore;

1. Who is Hiram Abiff?
2. What or who does he represent?
3. What is the allegory of the ritual?
4. What is the significance of the 'Lion Paw (or grip)'?

Assuming you understood or were taught the allegory of the ritual, your own conclusions will hopefully answer your own points.

While I see your point in the questions, I feel obligated (pun intended) to mention that this isn't a Tyled environment and it might not be the best place to discuss this...

To answer your question: I, as I said, see your point (my interpretation being slightly different from the one you allude to), yet, again, see no problems with that and my (personal) interpretation of the GAOTU.

Mate, really, I'm nearly certain that the professed Christian denomination - at least in the continental Europe lodges in amity with the UGLE - is in a serious minority...

Is most of Masonry based on interpretations of the Bible? Yes.
Do you need to be a Christian to appreciate it? No.
Does it make more sense if you believe in God? Yes.

stevepenny

28-10-2009, 11:56 AM

While I see your point in the questions, I feel obligated (pun intended) to mention that this isn't a Tyled environment and it might not be the best place to discuss this...

I'm quite sure that there is no harm in discussing the 4 questions posed. I'm asking you what YOU think they represent. This goes to the heart of the matter that has been raised on more than one forum and in more than one thread.

You need not use long words nor divulge any secrets. Questions one and two have the same answer, question three can be answered in 2 words and question four in 7 words.

Mate, really, I'm nearly certain that the professed Christian denomination - at least in the continental Europe lodges in amity with the UGLE - is in a serious minority...

Then I recommend a visit to a GLoS Lodge as a matter of some urgency...we still take it seriously.

agneau

28-10-2009, 12:09 PM

Have you ever attended a tyled lodge meeting where the VSL and Square and Compasses are not displayed? – Your first post implied that the VSL was always the Bible.

You are entitled to your opinions Sacred can be defined as "...of or relating to religion: not secular or profane...". Deism is secular (...not belonging to a religious organisation or congregation...), so how therefore can an oath when taken by a Deist, be considered sacred?

Don’t understand this; ‘Sacred’ can be defined all sorts of ways, including a non-religious way. An oath can be considered sacred whenever.

Was the VSL on which you took your obligation the Christian Bible? -Yes.
Why? The point is the same that I have made to humason; you simply cannot take an oath on a Holy Book that contains scripture that you do not believe. –

You may not be able to, but I can: ie Your problem, not mine.

Assuming you are a Master Mason; at your 'raising' you were made to portray the death of our master Hiram Abiff. Therefore;

1. Who is Hiram Abiff?
2. What or who does he represent?
3. What is the allegory of the ritual?
4. What is the significance of the 'Lion Paw (or grip)'?

Now you're trying to be too clever and it still doesn't belie my own truth. In any event I'm afraid I have no desire to answer any more questions, since you finish with : ‘Your own conclusions will hopefully answer your own points’ ? which reeks of good ol’ Christian self-righteous, smug pomposity, and is sooooo endearing…..

Tara!

stevepenny

28-10-2009, 12:33 PM

– Your first post implied that the VSL was always the Bible.

No; that was taken directly from the UGLE website.

Don’t understand this; ‘Sacred’ can be defined all sorts of ways, including a non-religious way. An oath can be considered sacred whenever.

Not in the way it was intended. The etymology of teh word is Middle English, from the past participle sacren, to consecrate, from Anglo-French sacrer, from the Latin sacrare and similair to the Latin word sancire which means to make sacred. It is also from the Hittite word šaklāi which means Rite.

You may not be able to, but I can: ie Your problem, not mine.

It's not my problem at all.

Now you're trying to be too clever and it still doesn't belie my own truth.

There is absolutely nothing 'clever' about the four questions. If you understood the ritual you would be able to answer them with consumate ease. Did you become a Freemason with an intent to learn and become a useful member of a fraternal society; or did you just join it because you thought it was a social club and so you could get a 'leg-up' in society?

And please, no more of the feigned indignance. If the point made above hurts, i.e. is it representative of the words "...and may it's recollection prove a torture to your soul..." then only you can do something about it. (and yes, I know the words are used out of context...)

In any event I'm afraid I have no desire to answer any more questions, since you finish with : ‘Your own conclusions will hopefully answer your own points’ ? which reeks of good ol’ Christian self-righteous, smug pomposity, and is sooooo endearing…..

Actually it reeks of a lack of knowledge of the fraternal society to which you allegedly belong. It reeks of a lack of undestanding of the ritual. Do you remember the words "Daily advancement in the knowldege of Freemasonry", or have you forgotten that as well.

grandsecretary

28-10-2009, 01:10 PM

[QUOTE=agneau;1058370166Don’t understand this; ‘Sacred’ can be defined all sorts of ways, including a non-religious way. An oath can be considered sacred whenever ...[/QUOTE]

No.

Sacerdotal: teaching "through the ministry of priests". Read your Royal Arch ritual. You cannot change the Landmarks for your own convenience. Well, you can, but then your Freemasonry becomes "The Rainbow Alliance."

kadosh

28-10-2009, 03:28 PM

Each to his own, each system has a value, nobody owns Freemasonry.
However, to borrow a proverbial legal phrase - the man on the Clapham omnibus does not understand that.

stevepenny

28-10-2009, 03:47 PM

However, to borrow a proverbial legal phrase - the man on the Clapham omnibus does not understand that.

The quote refers to a 'reasonably educated man...'. A difficult standard to apply to some who post here :D

Out of pure interest:

The story goes like this: in June of 1753, the real Reasonable Man was due in Chancery courts to give expert testimony in the matter of R. v. Murphy. He failed to show up at court at the appointed time of 9 a.m., but barristers on both sides of the matter gave the witness the benefit of the doubt, conceding 10 a.m. to be a more reasonable starting time anyhow.

When the Reasonable Man still failed to show up, earnest law clerks were sent into Chancery Lane to try and catch a glimpse of the latecomer. Just at this moment the Clapham omnibus went chugging by, spiriting Mr. Toff within. It was the young clerk Philip Dunwell, in a typical attempt to win the favour of his superior judge, that yelled, "That's our man, the man on the Clapham omnibus!"

Judges, however, were right to question the likelihood of espying the Reasonable Man within the Clapham bus, as certainly any reasonable Londoner would have taken the Battersea Omnibus to court, generally regarded to be the more expedient of the two modes of public transportation.

Indeed, our Man had taken that route, but when the bell rang to signify his upcoming stop, it proved to be a death knell for his final stop. At the corner of Wakehurst and Northcote Road, the bus crashed, killing its occupants.

While tragic, the accident proved to be one of the more succinct cases London Peelers presided over: it was determined the driver of the omnibus acted within reason, just as the driver of the post-chaise had. It was, at the risk of literary hyperbole, a pure accident. William Hogarth would later reproduce this entirely unique occurrence in one of his trademark woodcuttings, depicting the accident taking place under both an eclipse and the end of a rainbow.

To make matters worse, the justice in the Murphy case had to declare a mistrial, concluding: "Everything that could go wrong, has."

Grays Legal Dictionary

agneau

28-10-2009, 04:04 PM

Well I consider my Saturday mornings playing golf as sacred - but I never realised the true religious aspect of my experience..

Perhaps that explains the continual blaspheme I hear around me on every other shank....

...now that IS my problem.

aronia

20-01-2010, 09:42 AM

Any thoughts.?:)

The purpose of Freemasonry is world goverment out through the bloodlines...

The same goes for all the think tanks...

All the member of all think tanks is from a bloodline familie to...

grandsecretary

20-01-2010, 03:04 PM

Some truth in this aronia. Good post. But only half of the story.

True Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie was and is the opposite if this. It is the empowerment of the individual by education, so that the individual may take hold of the reins of power, for and on behalf of the people.

"Of the People, For the People, By the People."

It became so influential that in 1813 it was appropriated and turned into a hierarchical system of Royal patronage, where it is forbidden to even discuss religion and politics, in the interests of the "bloodlines".

Fortunately, this attempt to eradicate the democratic system of Free Masonry has failed and it has been revived.

Watch this space. :)

aronia

20-01-2010, 03:52 PM

Some truth in this aronia. Good post. But only half of the story.

True Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie was and is the opposite if this. It is the empowerment of the individual by education, so that the individual may take hold of the reins of power, for and on behalf of the people.

It became so influential that in 1813 it was appropriated and turned into a hierarchical system of Royal patronage, where it is forbidden to even discuss religion and politics, in the interests of the "bloodlines".

Fortunately, this attempt to eradicate the democratic system of Free Masonry has failed and it has been revived.

Watch this space. :)

If this kind of Freemasonry ever have existed it is dead now.

grandsecretary

20-01-2010, 03:57 PM

If this kind of Freemasonry ever have existed it is dead now.

Well if it is dead then it won't lie down. :)

stewart edwards

20-01-2010, 04:06 PM

Thank you Peter for you have just unwittingly ticked a box that helps me understand some of the wierd and wonderful unexpected things that have happened to me in the masonic wolrd over the years.

Thank you.

lightgiver

20-01-2010, 08:50 PM

Some truth in this aronia. Good post. But only half of the story.

True Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie was and is the opposite if this. It is the empowerment of the individual by education, so that the individual may take hold of the reins of power, for and on behalf of the people.

Watch this space. :)

That all depends on the quality of education one receives.

Build your penitentiary, we build your schools,
Brainwash education to make us the fools.
Hate is your reward for our love,
Telling us of your God above.

grandsecretary

20-01-2010, 10:45 PM

That all depends on the quality of education one receives.

Build your penitentiary, we build your schools,
Brainwash education to make us the fools.
Hate is your reward for our love,
Telling us of your God above.

Totally agree with you lightgiver.

lightgiver

21-01-2010, 10:09 PM

Freemasonry s purpose?

WHAT IS FREEMASONRY ?

What then is Masonry ? If it could answer, I believe it would say;

I am rooted in the midst of great antiquity, and point to God and eternity. I am the Past, Present and future; I belong to the ages. I circle the globe and stand at the crossroads of the world. I am steeped in tradition and traced in the pages of history. I have rites and words that have beauty, symmetry and rhythm. I have knowledge, wisdom and secrets locked in my bosom, which I give to men who come to me desiring me in their hearts. I place upon my altars Holy Writ and turn to the deity in prayer. I hold a Square and Compasses in my hands and contemplate a line from earth to heaven. I speculate with all the tools of operative masons, and I translate their use into moral values and spiritual building. I await all free men of lawful age and good report, but solicit none. I admit them of their own free will and accord, and teach them brotherhood and unity. I make builders of men of those who are willing, and give them my tools that they may work. I stoop to raise the fallen brethren and cast out the unworthy. I walk in the way of charity and travel the road of peace and harmony. I render aid to the poor, the sick and the distressed. I answer the cry of the orphan, and sustain the widow and the aged. I commit to the earth brethren who travel to that "Undiscovered Country". I ponder at the moment of the ravages of time, as I stand at the door of eternity. I am a way of life that teaches immortality. I raise men from darkness to light.

Wiley Odell May, Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Tennessee.

Published in The Empire State Mason, September/October 1963

kadosh

22-01-2010, 01:43 AM

rr_x

22-01-2010, 02:09 AM

grandsecretary

22-01-2010, 11:42 AM

WHAT IS FREEMASONRY ? ........ Take your pick:

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/faqfr.html

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/rawal.html

http://www.freemasoninformation.com/2009/09/what-is-freemasonry-free-ebook/

".. every Freemason believes in God"

This is why the Moderns system of Freemasonry is so dishonest. This statement is NOT TRUE.

Here is a question that I would ask kadosh to answer honestly and openly:

Is this possible?

A Moderns Freemason, a Wiccan Priest, acting as Lodge Chaplain, offers up "prayers and invocations to The Most High" on behalf of the Roman Catholics, Jews and Muslims in the Lodge.

It is a simple question, and it demands an answer I feel, particularly as it actually happens.

AND the thread is entitled "What is the Purpose of Freemasonry", not "What is Freemasonry" which is a diversion from the important subject of this thread.

grandsecretary

22-01-2010, 11:46 AM

The outer circle of Freemasonry is to generally recruit those who are to some extent influential in their own communities hence why you'll find lodges in almost every city in the western world. These guys often assist in charity work. For those members deemed useful they are invited to the many affiliate bodies within Masonry (as the higher orders tend to be invitational) where they will help towards whatever agenda is being pushed, usually without their knowledge. This is of course for those who have no immediate link to Masonry through family or close friends and is an effective way of recruiting the 'goy'. It is highly unlikely for a Mason to be told much about 'Masonic secrets' (such as its inner circle) unless they are a generational Mason with a family history of assisting the Great Work.

Inspite of the ideals it preaches and practices (through its charitable work), Masonry has always been an elitist system closely allied to the ruling powers of whatever country it resides in and is the most visible of all hidden groups that shape society.

This statement assumes that there is only one system of Freemasonry, the Moderns system.

"For, without the Druids, the Kings may neither do nor consult anything; so that in reality they are the Druids who reign." (SOURCE: John Chrysostom, 5th century Christian Bishop of Constantinople)

"... it is they (sic the Druids) who command, and kings on thrones of gold, dwelling in splendid palaces, are but their ministers, and the servants of their thought. (SOURCE: Dion Chrysostom, Greek Philosopher)

See: http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49&Itemid=63 for a full explanation.

grandsecretary

22-01-2010, 11:56 AM

Freemasonry s purpose?

WHAT IS FREEMASONRY ?

What then is Masonry ? If it could answer, I believe it would say;

I am rooted in the midst of great antiquity, and point to God and eternity.

Wiley Odell May, Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Tennessee.

Published in The Empire State Mason, September/October 1963

The Moderns system of Freemasonry, which includes the Grand Lodge of Tennessee was self started in London on the 24th June 1717, hardly " ... rooted in the midst of antiquity".

See my question to kadosh above (post #144), because this also deals with the false claim that Moderns Freemasons " ... point to God and Eternity".

Is this possible?

A Moderns Freemason, a Wiccan Priest, acting as Lodge Chaplain, offers up "prayers and invocations to The Most High" on behalf of the Roman Catholics, Jews and Muslims in the Lodge.

The statement by Wiley Odell therefore is misleading, misplaced, and dangerous for anyone who truly believes in God and the immortality of the immortal soul.

Faiths and churches who have officially condemned or banned the Moderns system of Freemasonry: The entire World of Islam; The Celtic Christian Church; The Roman Catholic Church; The Russian Orthodox Church; Synod Anglican Church of England; Synod Australian Anglican Church; Methodist Church of England; Wesleyan Methodist Church; General Association of Regular Baptist Churches; Orthodox Presbyterian Church; Presbyterian Church of Ireland; Reformed Presbyterian Church; Presbyterian Church in America; Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland; The Church of Scotland; Free Church of Scotland; Baptist Union of Scotland; The Salvation Army; Assemblies of God; The Evangelical Lutheran Synod; Lutheran Church Missouri Synod; Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod; Church of the Nazarene; Evangelical Mennonite Church; Grace Brethren; Christian Reformed Church in America; Independent Fundamentalist Churches of America.

The Roman Catholic Church ex-communicates, and the world of Islam sequesters property and assets, imprisons, and executes Freemasons.

rr_x

22-01-2010, 10:20 PM

This statement assumes that there is only one system of Freemasonry, the Moderns system.

Are you suggesting that the Antients are actively fighting this coming Socialist World Dictatorship?

grandsecretary

22-01-2010, 11:38 PM

kadosh

22-01-2010, 11:43 PM

Is that sentence the official Mission Statement of the GLAE@Y ?

grandsecretary

22-01-2010, 11:49 PM

No, I just answered the question myself based upon what we actually do, and have done since time immemorial.

Just one quote at random:

"With the foundation of the monastery of Tallaght by St. Maelruain in 769 A.D. we have a more reliable record of Tallaght’s early history. The monastery was a centre of learning and piety and was particularly associated with the Céli Dé spiritual reform movement. It was such an important institution that it and the monastery at Finglas were known as the “two eyes of Ireland”. St. Aengus, an Ulsterman, was one of the most illustrious of the Céli Dé and devoted himself to the religious life. Wherever he went he was accompanied by a band of followers who distracted him from his devotions. He secretly travelled to the monastery at Tallaght where he was not known and enrolled as a lay brother. He remained unknown for many years until his identity was discovered by Maeilruain. (SOURCE: South Dublin County History, Local Studies Collection, The County Library: Tallaght, Dublin, Eire)

aronia

23-01-2010, 10:45 AM

Well if it is dead then it won't lie down. :)

What is your point?

My mother tongue Isen't english...

hadabusa

23-01-2010, 10:52 AM

What is your point?

My mother tongue Isen't english...

he says theres still good masonry(non corrupt).

stewart edwards

23-01-2010, 10:59 AM

The Grand Lodge at York is all about empowering ordinary young men by educating them ... properly ... so that they have independent minds of their own, and are thereby capable of understanding the nature of the world around them and influencing the future of mankind for the better.Very important for the evolution of the human race. Your words remind me of those of the Head of Eton in an interview in Readers digest.

The question is why are there so many yes men around? Has England forgotten that to advance you need to think, to inspire from your heart to lead?

Automated yes men/clones may be very good at maintaining/manufacturing a structure, but if you loose the ability to lead in changine times you will become a has been and society will fracture due to societal stresses. Very sad to watch.

aronia

23-01-2010, 08:08 PM

he says theres still good masonry(non corrupt).

I but doubt they have any power in the world - if they had they would be murdered very qickly?

I understand from level 4 of the the scottish rite of freemasonry etc - you are ask to do evil and criminal activity to show your loyalty to the society?

Like killing another humanbeing to be accepted into level 4?

In exchange they help your business to grow very fast and you become very rich?

If you refuses, you are kick out faster when you say yes your Majesty?

Another thing is your mason friends from below level 4 you can`t you have any future contact with?

If you for some reason are being kick out by the top masons without you know why?

All evil and criminal activity, you have been doing will be sent to the district attorney and police?

You have to face you have been playing around with a extremely dangerous group of men?

To to this, if they don`t accept you into level 4 after you have been doing All evil and criminal activity they sent the district attorney and police?

http://www.hermes-press.com/Perennial_Tradition/masons.jpg

humason

23-01-2010, 11:20 PM

I but doubt they have any power in the world - if they had they would be murdered very qickly?

I understand from level 4 of the the scottish rite of freemasonry etc - you are ask to do evil and criminal activity to show your loyalty to the society?

Like killing another humanbeing to be accepted into level 4?

In exchange they help your business to grow very fast and you become very rich?

If you refuses, you are kick out faster when you say yes your Majesty?

Another thing is your mason friends from below level 4 you can`t you have any future contact with?

If you for some reason are being kick out by the top masons without you know why?

All evil and criminal activity, you have been doing will be sent to the district attorney and police?

You to face you have been playing around with a extremely dangerous group of men?

To to this, if they don`t accept you into level 4 after you have been doing All evil and criminal activity they sent the district attorney and police?

http://www.hermes-press.com/Perennial_Tradition/masons.jpg

No, no, no, we need to eat a roast baby and rape a male goat - what you're talking about is the 16th level!

Now, on a serious note, where do you get this from?! :S The categorical answer, in the name of any at least semi-regular SR (or A&ASR) - either by my, Peters, or the LDH or OWF or anyone that's not a totally twisted "freemason" (meaning, anyone that's not "taking our name in vain") is - NO.

grandsecretary

23-01-2010, 11:36 PM

Are you suggesting that the Antients are actively fighting this coming Socialist World Dictatorship?

We are not Antients. The Grand Lodge of All England is above crude party politics.

boots

24-01-2010, 08:12 AM

We are not Antients. The Grand Lodge of All England is above crude party politics.

Nope it's part of the big plan for a NWO.

Masons are the foundation stone to this plan.

.

aronia

24-01-2010, 08:32 AM

Nope it's part of the big plan for a NWO.

Masons are the foundation stone to this plan.

.

Thanks boots i have already said it twice in this thread. :)

It give me an excuse to finsh my own thread - about the true natur of The Grand Lodge of All England.

camreeno

24-01-2010, 09:42 AM

Why is this thread so long? The purpose of Freemasonry is to advance the NWO agenda. Does that mean every single Freemason knows this and is actively complicity in this? No. Freemasonry is an Illuminati front chiefly used to initiate bloodline members and get them into high positions of power. Members giver higher allegiance to the group than to the country, and they therefore take orders from higher initiates regardless if it isn't accepted or in line with the rest of the country...

I'm wondering how much some of you read.

aronia

24-01-2010, 09:56 AM

grandsecretary

24-01-2010, 10:10 AM

Thanks boots i have already said it twice in this thread. :)

It give me an excuse to finsh my own thread - about the true natur of The Grand Lodge of All England.

And no doubt you will say it a thousand times more. Mere repetition does not make it true.

camreeno

24-01-2010, 10:30 AM

The thread so long because this forum is deeply infiltrated by freemasons - who continue redirect the OB question...

I have said the same thing twice in this thread...Why would any Freemasons post in the David Icke forums?

grandsecretary

24-01-2010, 10:43 AM

Why would any Freemasons post in the David Icke forums?

This is one answer, and IMHO a vital one.

The nature of the world wide web is such that anything that is posted on a public forum may be accessed by members of the general public simply by typing a key word such as "Freemason" into a search engine.

It is important, therefore, that any statements, claims, or allegations that are made on forums such as this one in respect to Freemasonry per se should be decent, legal, honest and truthful.

Wherever any statement, claim, or allegation is made on a public forum that is illegal, indecent, dishonest and untruthful, and then repeated, and repeated, and repeated, may be misunderstood or even accepted by the general public as being unopposed truth, unless it is corrected.

There should be no free rides on public forums otherwise they are open to exploitation by those who are: biased; omit facts; engage in contrary construction; divert attention; deceive; mislead; or misreprent; either accidentally or deliberately.

In addition, I find this forum to be interesting, intellectually stimulating, and great fun.

kadosh

24-01-2010, 08:36 PM

Why would any Freemasons post in the David Icke forums?
To rebutt and counter anti-masonic propaganda that is deliberately circulated and is untrue. The details provided here and elsewhere by the anti-masonic posters is quite simply repeating the same information that has been around for years. The problem is that non-Masons read anti-masonic messages and then start to believe it as well. The real problem is that most people who frequent forums will not do their own research on anything to verify and confirm if what they read is factual. The anti-Masonic posters have their own agenda indeed and it is not promoting knowledge!

1776

24-01-2010, 09:19 PM

To rebutt and counter anti-masonic propaganda that is deliberately circulated and is untrue. The details provided here and elsewhere by the anti-masonic posters is quite simply repeating the same information that has been around for years. The problem is that non-Masons read anti-masonic messages and then start to believe it as well. The real problem is that most people who frequent forums will not do their own research on anything to verify and confirm if what they read is factual. The anti-Masonic posters have their own agenda indeed and it is not promoting knowledge!

I'm just curious, and by no means am I on the 'assault' or 'attack' of your beliefs, so please know that right-off.

I do have some questions, but I'll start off with just one.

Do you consider the following material credible Masonic literature?

* Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike
* Encyclopedia of Freemasonry (Vol. I & II) by Albert G. Mackey
* The Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
* The Secret Destiny of America by Manly P. Hall
* The Principles of Masonic Law by Albert G. Mackey
* The Indian Mason by Albert G. Mackey
* The Secret Teachings of All Ages by Manly P. Hall
* A Pilgrim's Path by John J. Robinson
* Born in Blood: The Lost Secret's of Freemasonry by John J. Robinson
* The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
* Orders of the Quest by Manly P. Hall
* Rosicrucian and Masonic Origins by Manly P. Hall
* Aryan Languages by Albert Pike
* Deities Offered by Nature to the Aryans by Albert Pike
* Freemasonry: A Journey Through Ritual and Symbol by Kirk W. MacNulty
* The Builders: A Story and Study of Freemasonry by Joseph Newton
* A Concise History of Freemasonry by Robert Freke Gould
* A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry by Arthur Waite
* Scottish Rite Masonry Illustrated, The Complete Ritual, Vol. 2 (E. Cook Publications)
* Duncan's Ritual of Freemasonry by Malcolm Duncan
* Duncan's Rituals, Revised and Complete by Malcom Duncan
* The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail by Michael Baigent & Henry Lincoln

I could go on but I'll leave it at that for now. I appreciate your reply, thanks ahead of time.

Peace&Love
God bless

kadosh

24-01-2010, 09:48 PM

.... Do you consider the following material credible Masonic literature?

* Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike
* Encyclopedia of Freemasonry (Vol. I & II) by Albert G. Mackey
* The Symbolism of Freemasonry by Albert G. Mackey
* The Secret Destiny of America by Manly P. Hall
* The Principles of Masonic Law by Albert G. Mackey
* The Indian Mason by Albert G. Mackey
* The Secret Teachings of All Ages by Manly P. Hall
* A Pilgrim's Path by John J. Robinson
* Born in Blood: The Lost Secret's of Freemasonry by John J. Robinson
* The Lost Keys of Freemasonry by Manly P. Hall
* Orders of the Quest by Manly P. Hall
* Rosicrucian and Masonic Origins by Manly P. Hall
* Aryan Languages by Albert Pike
* Deities Offered by Nature to the Aryans by Albert Pike
* Freemasonry: A Journey Through Ritual and Symbol by Kirk W. MacNulty
* The Builders: A Story and Study of Freemasonry by Joseph Newton
* A Concise History of Freemasonry by Robert Freke Gould
* A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry by Arthur Waite
* Scottish Rite Masonry Illustrated, The Complete Ritual, Vol. 2 (E. Cook Publications)
* Duncan's Ritual of Freemasonry by Malcolm Duncan
* Duncan's Rituals, Revised and Complete by Malcom Duncan
* The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail by Michael Baigent & Henry Lincoln

I could go on but I'll leave it at that for now. I appreciate your reply, thanks ahead of time.

Peace&Love
God bless
In my opnion only MacNulty, Newton, and Gould are reliable. As a matter of fact MacNulty is a current member of the premier lodge of Masonic research - Quatuor Coronati Lodge No. 2076 (EC) - and Gould (1836-1915) was a founder member and the second Master of Quatuor Coronati Lodge, London, and he contributed 25 papers and many notes to Ars Quatuor Coronatorum. Newton (1880-1950) was an American Baptist minister and Editor of The Builder for many years.

If one wants to make a powerful impression, you need a powerful vocabulary. Remember, the limits of your language are the limits of your words. aut disce aut discede

1776

24-01-2010, 10:42 PM

In my opnion only MacNulty, Newton, and Gould are reliable. As a matter of fact MacNulty is a current member of the premier lodge of Masonic research - Quatuor Coronati Lodge No. 2076 (EC) - and Gould (1836-1915) was a founder member and the second Master of Quatuor Coronati Lodge, London, and he contributed 25 papers and many notes to Ars Quatuor Coronatorum. Newton (1880-1950) was an American Baptist minister and Editor of The Builder for many years.

If one wants to make a powerful impression, you need a powerful vocabulary. Remember, the limits of your language are the limits of your words. aut disce aut discede

Thanks for your reply.

Another question.

Albert Pike is not a credible Masonic source?

Manly Palmer Hall?

Really? No?

hadabusa

24-01-2010, 11:34 PM

Thanks for your reply.

Another question.

Albert Pike is not a credible Masonic source?

Manly Palmer Hall?

Really? No?

pike was charged4treason.
masons do not hold him in high regards at all.
his books make4good conspiracy interpretations,lol.

he was a kkk lawyer/founder..

mph isnt held in high regards by masons either.

luciferhorus

24-01-2010, 11:58 PM

To answer the question "What is Fremasonry" would probably some familiarity with the contents of many books by both Masons and anti-Masons.

Probably a better question would be "For what purpose do men join this cult?"

Having grown up in a predominately Scottish / Masonic enviroment and having listened to a lifetime of their conversations, the general impression given to me is that they are predominately interested in the rewards of the god of Capital; it is essentially a Capitalist organisation that people join in order to be part of a network of Capitalists and to financially benefit from the rewards of successful and established Capitalists; it thus seems to me that the Masons who exist on the Internet and who have an interest in attempting to understand the esoteric (secret knowledge) nature of their cult are probably by far in the minority.

David Icke paints a picture of a gang of esoteric Satanists intent on taking over the world through Capitalist revolution; in contrast Martin Short's "Inside the Brotherhood" accords much more with my own personal impressions of Masonry in Scotland (though his writings deal more with English Masonry); Short's book conveys the impression of a group of corrupt incestous Capitalists who predominate in the City of London, loan sharking, and in just about every conceivable Capitalist industry, and who are primarly interested in money; frankly I think this is much closer to the truth.

"If you bow down and worship me I will give you all the kingdoms of the world."

In the modern world generally those who are willing to be subservient to the Capitalist heirarchy reap a reward which frankly is the freedom of the kingdoms of the world; such are the rewards given to the sychophants of the god of Capital.

I have no doubt however that the upper echelons of Masonry are entirely aware that they ultimately serve god of Capitalism; however this seems to me to be the same God which the Christians serve, since Christianity is also a Capitalist anti-Communist phenomena.

That the Christians and Masons seem to be at odds with each here on this forum, they represent the same malevolent force and it is my view that their in-fighting be encouraged.

LL

Lux

kadosh

25-01-2010, 12:33 AM

Probably a better question would be "For what purpose do men join this cult?"
Freemasonry is not a cult. This is another myth circulated by anti-masons. The usual use of the term cult, refers to a group that separates itself from society and its members from their non-member friends, demands slavish obedience from its adherents, engages in brainwashing techniques, confiscates their resources, and sees itself in opposition to established society. So, absolutely Freemasonry is not a cult.

Unlike a cult:

The person joining Freemasonry knows clearly what organization he is joining. He understands that he himself has asked to become a member.

He retains freedom of religion, politics, friends, family association, selection of spouse, and information access to television, radio, reading material, telephone, and mail.

The connection with Freemasonry is usually infrequent: once or twice a month. Although for some, Masonic activities will occur 2-3 times a week, others proudly maintain Masonic membership attending only 1-2 (or even no) meetings each year.

A Mason can terminate his membership freely. In fact, if he fails to pay his annual dues (subscriiption), his membership is terminated by the Masonic organization! Should a Mason wish to leave the organization, he can request a 'demit' (resign) and receive a certificate which states that he has unaffiliated with the organization under good terms. No Mason is forced to remain a member should he wish otherwise.

Some cults discourage and sometimes even forbid medical care. This does not happen in Freemasonry.

In Freemasonry, records are kept and are available to all members. Cult records, if they exist, are confidential, hidden from members, and not shared. Freemasonry's records extend back some 300 years, all readily available. While membership lists are not posted publicly, this policy is no different than that of private golf clubs or lists of employees of privately held corporations. Members are free to disclose their membership to whomever they please.

A legal system exists within Freemasonry and a Mason can also utilize non-Masonic legal and law enforcement agencies and other representatives if needed. In cults, there is only the closed, internal system of justice, and no appeal, no recourse to outside support.

Children of Masons may attend schools as they wish. Some Masonic bodies (notably the Southern U.S. Scottish Rite Masonic Jurisdiction) in fact vigorously support the public school system. In cults, children, child rearing, and education are often controlled by the whims and idiosyncrasies of the cult leader.

Freemasonry is not a sovereign entity above the laws of the land. Cults consider themselves above the law, with their own brand of morality and justice, accountable to no one, not even their members.

A Mason gets to keep his pay, property owned and acquired presents from relatives, inheritances, and so forth. In many cults, members are expected to turn over to the cult all monies and worldly possessions.

Rational behavior is valued in Freemasonry. Cults stultify members' critical thinking abilities and capacity for rational, independent thinking; normal thought processes are stifled and broken (somewhat like the manner of actions of those who make the charge that Freemasons are cultists!).

Suggestions and criticism can be made to leadership through advocated, proper channels. There are no 'suggestion boxes' in cults. The cult is always right, and the members (and outsiders) are always wrong.

Masonic leadership is elected, usually annually. No Masonic leader serves 'for life'. Should a Masonic leader act improperly, he can be removed from office. Even the highest ranking officer within a Masonic jurisdiction (a Grand Master) serves at the will and pleasure of the membership and can be removed for malfeasance or acts detrimental to the fraternity.

There is no single leader of Freemasonry. There are hundreds of Grand Lodges throughout the world, and each is sovereign unto itself. A Grand Lodge controls only its own subordinate lodges and no others. Rules made by a Grand Lodge apply only to its own members. Masons may affiliate with more than one Grand Lodge. With rare exceptions, there is no bar to joining multiple lodges in multiple jurisdictions.

Freemasonry does not use its members for medical and psychological experiments - period! Cults essentially perform psychological experiments on their members through implementing thought-reform processes without members' knowledge or consent.

Masons become more and more a part of the community through various lodge-sponsored events. In a cult, members come to know less and less abut the outside world; contact with or information about life outside the cult is sometimes openly frowned upon, if not forbidden.

Freemasonry has no particular dietary suggestions or recommendations. Typically, because of intense work schedule, lack of funds, and other cult demands, members are not able to maintain healthy eating habits. (Freemasons frequently host public dinners which anyone can attend and Masonic events regularly have plenty of food for those attending.)

Masonry regularly contributes to other groups and organizations. Masonic organizations take leadership positions in fund raising for charities and public good. Cults desperately seek to keep whatever assets they are able to obtain. Freemasonry shares with the world!

In Freemasonry, instruction is based on symbolism but brainwashing, or thought reform, is not used. Cults influence members by means of a coordinated program of psychological and social influence techniques. Freemasonry allows each member to provide his own interpretation of the symbols involved and no one interpretation is deemed to be correct to the exclusion of all others. Witness the many interpretations given by various Masonic writers over the centuries. Religious intolerants will attempt to label this or that individual's interpretation as representative of Freemasonry but nothing could be further from the truth. What any other Mason (including the oft-misquoted Masonic authors like Albert Pike) sees in the symbolism of the Trowel, for example, may be far different from what I as a Mason see - yet neither of us is wrong.

For these and many other reasons, Freemasonry is not a cult - and, in fact, is further from it than the practices of many of those who hurl the term at it as if it were an evil invective. The next time you hear or read of someone calling a Mason a cultist, I hope you will look closely at their own background and beliefs. Perhaps they know about cults because of themselves.

luciferhorus

25-01-2010, 01:25 AM

Freemasonry is not a cult.

Firstly you need to bear in mind that most cult members do not admit to being in a cult.

Cult (from L. cultus; to worship)

The term cult has two practical defintions; firstly it is often used by members of one cult (such as the Christian cult) to define members of another cult in a derogatory manner.

Secondly is used descriptively as a term in language; this term is also used frequently in a rather harsh manner by academics in the field of religous studies or "psychology of religion;" there has been a tendency for apologists to refer to cults as "New Religious Movements" but this is beyond the original defintion of the term, since a cult does not have to be new; on the contrary it can be rather ancient. The cult of the Emperor, the cult of Rome, the cult of Christianity are frankly all descriptive terms.

[QUOTE]
This is another myth circulated by anti-masons. The usual use of the term cult, refers to a group that separates itself from society and its members from their non-member friends, demands slavish obedience from its adherents, engages in brainwashing techniques, confiscates their resources, and sees itself in opposition to established society. So, absolutely Freemasonry is not a cult.

Unlike a cult:

The person joining Freemasonry knows clearly what organization he is joining. etc.

Masonry clearly is a religious cult (a group of worshippers) which has a strong economic element; members generally seem to join for financial reasons.

When the lawyers representing the Grand Lodge requested tax exempt status for their Temple in Great Queen Elizabeth Street, it was on the grounds of it being a "Temple of Worship;" since the term "cult" literally means a group of worshippers, I take the view that disputing this is just playing a game of contradiction and semantics (word play). Langauge has to have meaning for it to be worth using, and definitions of language must be defended against the propagators of Orwellian Newspeak.

It is very clear that Masons have a hierarchical cult where some are referred to as "Masters" and as "worshipful (worthy of worship; i.e., cult adoration); members of a golf club or associations of atheists generally would not behave in such a manner; further the Masonic Temples are esentially reproductions of Solomon's Temple which was the centepiece of Solomon's cult where his numerous sex slaves (wives and concubines) would offer sacrifices to their various deities; since Solomon, who is revered by Masonic cultists allegedly revived the cult of human sacrifice, it is quite clear that he was not an atheist or a humanist, or merely the member of a golf club, and that the purpose of his Temple was to be that of the centre of cult practices.

All this is not what one would expect from the members of a book club or a literary circle.

.

Freemasonry is not a sovereign entity above the laws of the land. Cults consider themselves above the law, with their own brand of morality and justice, accountable to no one, not even their members.

It seems to me that the evidence presented by Martin Short in "Inside the Brotherhood" contradicts this entirely and this is my own impression.

There is no single leader of Freemasonry.

As I understand it, each Masonic cult has it's own Grand Master, the English Master being the Duke of Kent, who is a Fieldmarshall for the state terrorist militia. Frankly I doubt if he is more than a puppet however; generally all heirarchical organisations tend to lead to a Grand Master of Masters; exactly who that is with regards to international Masonry is entirely unclear, and I suspect it is unclear to the vast majority of Masons also; however I think the most you can say factually is that it is unclear as to who the Grand Master of Masters is; but you cannot speak truthfully with factual certainty about his non-existence.

For these and many other reasons, Freemasonry is not a cult - and, in fact, is further from it than the practices of many of those who hurl the term at it as if it were an evil invective.

The members of the Christian cult refer to Masonic cultists as cultists, we can generally take this merely as a purely derogatory term; however I merely use the term as a descriptive term in language. I generally try to discriminate against "all" religious cults (i.e., organised religions).

LL

Lux

stewart edwards

25-01-2010, 07:59 AM

In my opnion only MacNulty, Newton, and Gould are reliable. As a matter of fact MacNulty is a current member of the premier lodge of Masonic research - Quatuor Coronati Lodge No. 2076 (EC) - Indeed it was "Way of the Craftsman" that I stumbled across in the ugle shop that actually made me realise that not all masons are motivated by personal advantage in business a view that I had held until that moment through life experience. I certainly did not relate freemasonry in England to me standing in a dark pub car park chin wagging trying to fathom out why there were no institutions in life to help people make sense of it all. Anyhow I found MacNultys book to be not only refreshing, but it opened up an esoteric connection in my heart that what I understood to be freemasonry was understood by at lest one mason. It was a signpost to help me find my own way, and a key that had helped me unlock myself. Funnily enough ugle GQS has offered me several places where I have had esoteric signpost and key moments. I was dotting this around my esoterics book, but I may just pull it together in one chapter "An esoteric tour of GQS".

grandsecretary

25-01-2010, 09:51 AM

Probably a better question would be "For what purpose do men join this cult?"

I don't agree. There is a danger that whoever does so might simply use it as an opportuity to divert the thread by pumping out communist propaganda.

What is the purpose of Freemasonry?

orage

28-01-2010, 04:09 AM

Freemasonry is indeed the resurrection of the Noachide religion, that of the Patriarch Noah, that religion prior to any dogma, which allows us to go beyond the differences and oppositions of the various faiths.

" 'The descendants of Noah. A term applied to Freemasons on the theory, derived from the 'legend of the craft,' that Noah was the father and founder of the Masonic system of theology. And hence the Freemasons claim to be his descendants, because in times past they preserved the pure principles of his religion amid the corruptions of surrounding faiths.'-- --ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FREEMASONRY and Its Kindred Sciences,&c. by Albert G. Mackey, M.D. 33ƒ, The Masonic History Company, New York and London 1917

Do any masons of any flavor subscribe to this notion? Do you? Who instead subscribes to hermetic traditions? What do you make of this definition of Hermeticism?

The three parts of the wisdom of the whole universe
Alchemy — The Operation of the Sun — is not simply the changing of physical lead into physical gold[33]. It is an investigation into the spiritual constitution, or life of matter and material existence through an application of the mysteries of birth, death and resurrection[34]. The various stages of chemical distillation and fermentation, among them, are aspects of these mysteries, that, when applied quicken Nature's processes in order to bring a natural body to perfection[35]. This perfection is the accomplishment of the Magnum opus (Latin for Great Work).

Astrology — The Operation of the Moon — Hermes claims that Zoroaster discovered this part of the wisdom of the whole universe, astrology, and taught it to man[36]. In Hermetic thought, it is likely that the movements of the planets have meaning beyond the laws of physics and actually holding metaphorical value as symbols in the mind of The All, or God. Astrology has influences upon the Earth, but does not dictate our actions, and wisdom is gained when we know what these influences are and how to deal with them.

Theurgy — The Operation of the Stars — There are two different types of magic, according to Giovanni Pico della Mirandola's Apology, completely opposite of each other. The first is γοητεια, Goëtia, black magic reliant upon an alliance with evil spirits (i.e. demons). The second is Theurgy, divine magic reliant upon an alliance with divine spirits (i.e. angels, archangels, gods)[37].

Theurgy translates to "The Science or art of Divine Works" and is the practical aspect of the Hermetic art of alchemy[38]. Furthermore, alchemy is seen as the "key" to theurgy,[39] the ultimate goal of which is to become united with higher counterparts, leading to the attainment of Divine Consciousness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism

grandsecretary

28-01-2010, 08:07 AM

"Although the term Druid is local, their religion was of deep root, and a distant origin. It was of equal antiquity with those of the Persian Magi, the Chaldeans of Assyria, and the Brahmins of Hindustan. It resembled them so closely in its sublime precepts, in its consoling promises, as to leave no doubt that these nations, living so widely apart, were all of the same stock and the same religion - that of Noah, and the children of men before the flood." (SOURCE: Veil of isis or Mysteries of the Druids, W. Windwood Reade: 1861)

Not just Noah, but the children of men before the flood.

mike martin

28-01-2010, 10:36 AM

Firstly you need to bear in mind that most cult members do not admit to being in a cult.

Cult (from L. cultus; to worship)

The term cult has two practical defintions; firstly it is often used by members of one cult (such as the Christian cult) to define members of another cult in a derogatory manner.

Secondly is used descriptively as a term in language; this term is also used frequently in a rather harsh manner by academics in the field of religous studies or "psychology of religion;" there has been a tendency for apologists to refer to cults as "New Religious Movements" but this is beyond the original defintion of the term, since a cult does not have to be new; on the contrary it can be rather ancient. The cult of the Emperor, the cult of Rome, the cult of Christianity are frankly all descriptive terms.
OR by using a dictionary rather than just inventing our own definitions we find it means:

▸ noun: a system of religious beliefs and rituals ("Devoted to the cultus of the Blessed Virgin")
▸ noun: adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
▸ noun: an interest followed with exaggerated zeal

Masonry clearly is a religious cult (a group of worshippers) which has a strong economic element; members generally seem to join for financial reasons.
Well this is your opinion and you're entitled to it (however wrong it may be) but you shouldn't try to present it as fact. I doubt you would find many Masons who agree with you, I don't and I've been a Mason, with first hand experience of it, far longer than you.

When the lawyers representing the Grand Lodge requested tax exempt status for their Temple in Great Queen Elizabeth Street, it was on the grounds of it being a "Temple of Worship;" since the term "cult" literally means a group of worshippers, I take the view that disputing this is just playing a game of contradiction and semantics (word play). Langauge has to have meaning for it to be worth using, and definitions of language must be defended against the propagators of Orwellian Newspeak.
Interesting claim! Care to back it up with some evidence?

Oh no, of course you can't! That would be because the United Grand Lodge of England is not "tax exempt" and it has never tried to get "tax exempt status" for the building let alone by claiming that it is a "temple of worship". It is in certain states in America that Freemasonry seems to get Tax exempt status, although you would have to ask them how it works. Of course it is possible that you are thinking of our Charities which do have tax exempt status but that is because they are registered Charities, which.

It is very clear that Masons have a hierarchical cult where some are referred to as "Masters" and as "worshipful (worthy of worship; i.e., cult adoration); members of a golf club or associations of atheists generally would not behave in such a manner;
Well, it could be spun that way by an outsider! However, any Mason would tell you that every member will become a Master after a minimum of 3 months (in some parts of the US it can be done in one day) to a year. A Worshipful Master is the bloke in charge of a Lodge for a year oh and once again a dictionary would assist you in these flights of fancy:

worshipful

• adjective 1 feeling or showing reverence and admiration. 2 (Worshipful) Brit. a title given to justices of the peace and to certain old companies or their officers.

In fact it's even better if you use a dictionary from a time closer to when we started using the term, here's a definition from 1828:

WORSHIPFUL, a.
1. Claiming respect; worthy of honor from its character or dignity.
This is worshipful society.
2. A term of respect, sometimes ironically.

further the Masonic Temples are esentially reproductions of Solomon's Temple which was the centepiece of Solomon's cult where his numerous sex slaves (wives and concubines) would offer sacrifices to their various deities; since Solomon, who is revered by Masonic cultists allegedly revived the cult of human sacrifice, it is quite clear that he was not an atheist or a humanist, or merely the member of a golf club, and that the purpose of his Temple was to be that of the centre of cult practices.
Well once again you've got it wrong but that's not your fault you're not a Mason how would you know. The Lodge is based around King Solomon's Temple but at a very specific time, that being while it is being built. You see you read Solomon's Temple but don't understand that our imagery and symbolism is based on the Builder's Craft the stuff you write about happened far after our intersest in the building has ended.

All this is not what one would expect from the members of a book club or a literary circle.
Now here you're spot on! That would some pretty cool book club :D However, Freemasonry is not a book club it is a very old Fraternity with traditions going back to the 17th Century, so why not try comparing apples to apples rather than apples to steak pies.

Mike

stewart edwards

28-01-2010, 11:38 AM

so why not try comparing apples to apples rather than apples to steak pies.Though steak and apple pie can be yummy:)

On a more serious note luciferhorus dont make the mistake of assuming that freemasonry is one organism. Laws differ in different countries, eg on issues such as being tax exempt, just as fraternities differ widely as to their ethos of what freemaosnry is about. As you know I have seen first hand everything from business deals being the main topic of conversation to NWO stuff in masonic settings. And Mike Martin may need to sit down for this one, but I agree with him here. I would take on board what he has taken the time to tell you. Most masons are good people who are trying to find their way, just as some end up in the New Age or religion or even on this forum some end up in masonry.

I still like steak and apple pie though.

azaziel01

28-01-2010, 12:12 PM

What is the purpose of Freemasonry?

Depends on the individual freemason.

Some seem to join for the company - as a way of socialising, enhancing their personal life, by sharing time with those who share a common interest.

The Ceremonies and moral structure

Chris

decim

28-01-2010, 03:23 PM

What is the purpose of Freemasonry?

Charity..

http://www.gordoncomstock.com/images/PVisionOfFuture.jpg

luciferhorus

28-01-2010, 05:32 PM

Interesting claim! Care to back it up with some evidence?

Oh no, of course you can't! That would be because the United Grand Lodge of England is not "tax exempt" and it has never tried to get "tax exempt status" for the building let alone by claiming that it is a "temple of worship". It is in certain states in America that Freemasonry seems to get Tax exempt status, although you would have to ask them how it works. Of course it is possible that you are thinking of our Charities which do have tax exempt status but that is because they are registered Charities, which.

I am unable to find an internet source for this; it is somewhere in my library of Masonic and anti-Masonic books; as I understand it an application was made for London Temple in Great Queen Elizabeth St which was rejected.

However as you point out, there are numerous other Masonic Temples which have tax exempt charity status including the US equivalent of the London Temple in Washington (which is called the "House of the Temple") http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/lucifers_network_1.htm.

Well once again you've got it wrong but that's not your fault you're not a Mason how would you know. The Lodge is based around King Solomon's Temple but at a very specific time, that being while it is being built. You see you read Solomon's Temple but don't understand that our imagery and symbolism is based on the Builder's Craft the stuff you write about happened far after our intersest in the building has ended.

Well it seems to me that the rituals of Freemasony revolve around a myth that occurred after the Temple was constructed and in use.

Frankly this whole debate about whether you have Temples or not, or whether you have worshipful cult masters or not, or whether you go through religious rites and rituals or not, and whether these religious rites and rituals are no different to what would be expected of persons who join a golf club and so forth and so forth, all seem to be attempts by modern Masons to claim that they don't have Temples, religoius rites, cult masters etc; I really don't see the point of all this really.

Frankly if you tore down your temples, executed your cult masters, and ceased and desisted from your religoius rituals, but your cult still continued to be an organisation of Capitalists, state terrorist collaborators, usuryists, legalists, etc., my judgement would remain. The maxim of "Freemasonry takesd good men and makes then better" is out with an anti-Capitalist definition of "good;" essentially it takes Capitalists and it does not turn them into anti-Capitalists, anti-statists, anti-propertyists; it simply reinforces their evil.

Frankly, when answering the question of "What is the purpose of Freemasonry" although some Christian Capitalists seem to think that you are an associating of worshippers of Satan, this is not my impression at all; in fact you appear to be defenders of the God of Capitalism (which seems to be the same or similar diety that which the Christian Capitalists worship); rather my judgement of you all is rather similar to the judgement of Martin Short; it is a cult which little different to many organised crime cults, and my impression of Masonic cultists is that their central purpose appears to be the accumulation of Capital.

LL

Lux

marpat

28-01-2010, 06:26 PM

Destruction of Christianity and imposition of Jewish World Order

This must surely be false as to be a member of some groups, such as the Scottish Rite, you have to be a proclaimed christian.

humason

28-01-2010, 07:04 PM

This must surely be false as to be a member of some groups, such as the Scottish Rite, you have to be a proclaimed christian.

To be completely accurate, it's the Rose Croix (call it the Uk version of SR), not A.A.S.R... But, a trinitarian christian faith is required for the Knights Templar.

luciferhorus

28-01-2010, 07:32 PM

This must surely be false as to be a member of some groups, such as the Scottish Rite, you have to be a proclaimed christian.

Well the "term which is used" for the Bible which appears on a pedestal in many Masonic Lodges is "The volume of the sacred Law." Of course when we speak of "Thelemic Law" we speak of a singular principle of Law; however the term "Law" is not quite grammatically correct with reference to the Bible, since we are referring to the 613 laws of Moses and then we also have the words and edicts of God himself (the words and edicts of Jesus) which also apparently serve as Law.

Any person who considers these laws to be sacred (including many executable offenses such as executions for working on a Saturday etc., and incitements to genocide and infanticide against the enemies of this god) must really be considered to be persons of no moral worth who have the inability to think for themselves.

These are a set of laws conconcted by the few to control the many.

LL

Lux

_____________________

Summa Contra Lex (Summary Against Law)

Since our loving Christian brother Unica here believes that homosexuals should be executed (along with other violators of the Mosaic Law), I am posting here the entirety of the Law in order that debaters here can understand what constitutes a violation of the Law and what we could expect in a world ruled by genocidal neo-fascist Christians such as Unica who wish to kill violaters of the Law; I would further ask if Unica obeys these 613 laws, or if he too needs to consider himself a violater, and would presumably be executed along with us, and with most of humanity, if not virtually all of humanity.

Regards.

Lux

_____________________

The Law

By Lucifer

For Anarchism. For Communism.
Aeon of Lucifer 2008

Laying Down the Law

The 613 Judaic laws include many executable offences, for example for adultery, any type of homosexual act, allowing your ox to gore a child (on a second offence), disobedience to one's parents, any form of divination, necromancy, fortune telling, predicting the future, ancestor worship, idolatry, etc. Further the violation of certain laws by an entire society are genocidal offences (i.e. the total holocaust of all citizens, sparing none).

http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/bible-verses.gif

Frankly most modernists would consider it reasonable to believe that Moses’ god was an anthromorphic creation (a psychological projection) of his own personal beliefs. For example, Moses despised the Egyptian slave masters and their idolatrous religion, which justified their tyranny, so it followed that Moses’ god hated them also, just as today the God of the Christian state terrorists is a God who loves Capitalists and state terrorists, since the Christians themselves are monetarists and would take offence to an anti-monetarist, anti-usuryist god.

Almost every powerful person in the age of Moses’ African slave revolution spoke to an uneducated and highly superstitious proletariat, and such tyrants and the prophets who cried out against them each claimed that their authority was divinely inspired, much as it is with the Anglo-American Christian state terrorist heads of state today (i.e., Obama and Elizabeth Windsor) and their Islamic enemies.

Let my people Go. Free the slaves.

There is the tradition of slave revolution. The liberation of the African slaves; contempt for tyranny and the religious establishment of Egypt; the army of liberated African slaves waging war against the human sacrifice cultists of their age; destroying temples and so forth; which is very much in the spirit of Communist revolution; yet on the other hand we find the 613 laws of Moses which are clearly not acceptable to modern Communists; then there is Solomonic temple ritualism, a priestly hierarchy and blood sacrifice cultism.

The Old Testament god is simply the anthromorphic projection of our barely literate and overtly superstitious ancient ancestors.

'The more powerful the state, the more numerous the laws.'

The Anarchist Communist Kropotkin identified three basic categories of Laws.

1: Laws to protect the government.

Since statism (tyranny) is a militant ideology and the statists must eradicate all militant opposition, in defence of the victims of statism Anarchist Communism (anti-statist collectivism) must be and is a militant ideology. The definition of an Anarchist region is one where there all statists would have to be ruthlessly exterminated, thus there would be no need for laws to protect the tyrants and their mercenaries (their police state, military, tax collectors and assorted bureaucracy / useless eaters etc.).

2: Laws to protect private property.

Similarly with propertyism, one cannot be a propertyist unless one is militant and have mercenaries (police) to protect one's property. Since the masses will always in their hearts seek to disempower those who enslave them for the purposes of stealing their labour hours, leaving the labour slaves impoverished at the expense of a few, and since private propertyism is a militant ideology, the propertyists would have to be executed, thus there would be no need to have laws to protect them.

3: Laws to protect the individual from harm (Natural Law).

This is simply common sense. There is no need to create written laws to this extent. This is as it would have been in the mythical Garden of Eden.
Love is the Law, love under will, etc. For example in a world without religious, private property and statist laws, a mother will still demand ‘do not harm my children, do not enslave them, do not starve them, etc., etc., these are of course not objective laws, but never the less most mothers, unindoctrinated by religion and police statism would probably agree with them.

The Anarchist (against the Archons / authority figures) Kropotkin once stated that he would never challenge the ‘authority’ of an engineer, since was not an engineer; he did not have that type of expertise and would rather leave bridge building and construction to the trained experts; an engineer is an expert in a certain type of science, not an Archon (tyrant) who claims to be an expert in enslaving people and ruling over them or an expert in God or religious morality

4: Sexual Laws

In addition to Kropotkin’s 3 types of law, we also have to consider the eradication of the millions of religious laws (I will not elaborate), and especially sexual laws; these are simply laws which produce an effective and miserable slave.

Lucifer
Aeon of Lucifer 2008

Sex is the most powerful instinct in man. The politician and the priest have understood from the very beginning that sex is the most driving energy in man. It has to be curtailed, it has to be cut. If man is allowed total Freedom in sex, then there will be no possibility to dominate him. To make a slave out of him will be impossible.

Have you not seen it being done? When you want a bull to be yoked to a cart, what do you do? You castrate him, you destroy his sex energy. And have you seen the difference between a bull and an ox? What a difference! An ox is a poor phenomenon, a slave. A bull is a beauty; a bull is a glorious pheonomenon, a great splendor. See a bull walking, how he walks like an emperor! And see an ox pulling a cart.

The same has been done to man. The sex instinct has been curtailed, cut, crippled. Man does not exist as the bull now, he exists like the ox, and each man is pulling a thousand and one carts. Look and you will find behind you a thousand and one carts, and you are yoked to them.

Why can’t you yoke a bull? The bull is too powerful. If he sees a cow passing by, he will throw both you and the cart, and he will move to the cow! He will not bother a bit about who you are, and he will not listen. It will be impossible to control the bull. Sex energy is life energy; it is uncontrollable. And the politician and the priest are not interested in you, they are interested in channeling your energy into other directions. So there is a certain Mechanism behind it--it has to be understood.

Sex repression, tabooing sex, is the very foundation of human slavery. Man cannot be free unless sex is free. Man cannot be really free unless his sex energy is allowed natural growth.

These are the five tricks through which man has been turned into a slave, into an ugly phenomenon, a cripple.

The first is:
Keep man as weak as possible if you want to dominate him. If the priest wants to dominate you or the politician wants to dominate you, you have to be kept as weak as possible. And the best way to keep a man weak is not to give love total freedom. Love is nourishment..."

"...Second:
Keep man as ignorant and deluded as possible so that he can easily be deceived..."

"...The third secret:
Keep man as frightened as possible. And the sure way is not to allow him love, because love destroys fear--’love casteth out fear.’ When you are not in love you become more interested in security, in safety. When you are in love you are more interested in adventure, in exploration...."

"...The Fourth:
Keep man as miserable as possible--because a miserable man is confused, a miserable man has no self-worth, a miserable man is self-condemnatory, a miserable man feels that he must have done something wrong. A miserable man has no grounding--you can push him from here and there, he can be turned into driftwood very easily. And a miserable man is always ready to be commanded, to be ordered, to be disciplined, because he knows ’On my own I am simply miserable. Maybe someody else can discipline my life.’ He is a ready victim."

"And the fifth:
Keep men as alienated from each other as possible, so that they cannot band together for some purpose of which the priest and the politician may not approve. Keep people separate from each other. Don’t allow them too much intimacy. When people are separate, lonely, alienated from each other, they cannot band together. And there are a thousand and one tricks to keep them apart.

For example, if you are holding the hand of a man--you are a man and you are holding the hand of a man and walking down the road, singing--you will feel guilty because people will start looking at you. Are you gay, homosexual or something? Two men are not allowed to be happy together. They are condemned as homosexuals. Fear arises. If your friend comes and takes your hand in his hand, you look around: ’Is somebody looking or not?’ And you are just in a hurry to drop the hand..."
-Osho

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
—AL. I. 40.
"thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no
other shall say nay." —AL. I. 42–3.
"Every man and every woman is a star." —AL. I. 3.
There is no god but man.
..>..>
..> 1. Man has the right to live by his own law—to live in the way that he wills to do:to work as he will:to play as he will:to rest as he will:to die when and how he will.
2. Man has the right to eat what he will:to drink what he will:to dwell where he will:to move as he will on the face of the earth.
3. Man has the right to think what he will:to speak what he will:to write what he will:to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:to dress as he will.
4. Man has the right to love as he will:—"take your fill and will of love as ye will,when, where, and with whom ye will." —AL. I. 51.
5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights...>

"Love is the law, love under will." —AL. I. 57</I>

Or for example.

++++++++++++++++++

The 613 Laws

1 To know there is a Creator Ex. 20:2
2 Not to entertain thoughts of other gods Ex. 20:3
3 To know that He is one Deut. 6:4
4 To love the Creator Deut. 6:5
5 To fear the Creator. 10:20
6 To sanctify His Name Lev. 22:32
7 Not to profane His Name Lev. 22:32
8 Not to destroy objects associated with His Name Deut. 12:4
9 To listen to the prophet speaking in His Name Deut. 18:15
10 Not to test the prophet unduly Deut. 6:16

Laws of Character

11 To emulate His ways Deut. 28:9
12 To cleave to those who know Him Deut. 10:20
13 To love Jews Lev. 19:18
14 To love converts Deut. 10:19
15 Not to hate fellow Jews Lev. 19:17
16 To reprove Lev. 19:17
17 Not to embarrass others Lev. 19:17
18 Not to oppress the weak Ex. 21:22
19 Not to speak derogatorily of others Lev. 19:16
20 Not to take revenge Lev. 19:18
21 Not to bear a grudge Lev. 19:18

Laws of Torah Study

22 To learn Torah Deut. 6:7
23 To honor those who teach and know Torah Lev. 19:32

Laws of Idolatry

24 Not to inquire into idolatry Lev. 19:4
25 Not to follow the whims of your heart or what your eyes see Num. 15:39
26 Not to blaspheme Ex. 22:27
27 Not to worship idols in the manner they are worshiped Ex. 20:5
28 Not to worship idols in the four ways we worship God Ex. 20:5
29 Not to make an idol for yourself Ex. 20:4
30 Not to make an idol for others Lev. 19:4
31 Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes Ex. 20:20
32 Not to turn a city to idolatry Ex. 23:13
33 To burn a city that has turned to idol worship Deut. 13:17
34 Not to rebuild it as a city Deut. 13:17
35 Not to derive benefit from it Deut. 13:18
36 Not to missionize an individual to idol worship Deut. 13:12
37 Not to love the missionary Deut. 13:9
38 Not to cease hating the missionary Deut. 13:9
39 Not to save the missionary Deut. 13:9
40 Not to say anything in his defense Deut. 13:9
41 Not to refrain from incriminating him Deut. 13:9
42 Not to prophesize in the name of idolatry Deut. 13:14
43 Not to listen to a false prophet Deut. 13:4
44 Not to prophesize falsely in the name of God Deut. 18:20
45 Not to be afraid of killing the false prophet Deut. 18:22
46 Not to swear in the name of an idol Ex. 23:13
47 Not to perform ov (medium) Lev. 19:31
48 Not to perform yidoni (magical seer) Lev. 19:31
49 Not to pass your children through the fire to Molech Lev. 18:21
50 Not to erect a column in a public place of worship Deut. 16:22
51 Not to bow down on smooth stone Lev. 26:1
52 Not to plant a tree in the Temple courtyard Deut. 16:21
53 To destroy idols and their accessories Deut. 12:2
54 Not to derive benefit from idols and their accessories Deut. 7:26
55 Not to derive benefit from ornaments of idols Deut. 7:25
56 Not to make a covenant with idolaters Deut. 7:2
57 Not to show favor to them Deut. 7:2
58 Not to let them dwell in our land Ex. 23:33
59 Not to imitate them in customs and clothing Lev. 20:23
60 Not to be superstitious Lev. 19:26
61 Not to go into a trance to foresee events, etc. Deut. 18:10
62 Not to engage in astrology Lev. 19:26
63 Not to mutter incantations Deut. 18:11
64 Not to attempt to contact the dead Deut. 18:11
65 Not to consult the ov Deut. 18:11
66 Not to consult the yidoni Deut. 18:11
67 Not to perform acts of magic Deut. 18:10
68 Men must not shave the hair off the sides of their head Lev. 19:27
69 Men must not shave their beards with a razor Lev. 19:27
70 Men must not wear women's clothing Deut. 22:5
71 Women must not wear men's clothing Deut. 22:5
72 Not to tattoo the skin Lev. 19:28
73 Not to tear the skin in mourning Deut. 14:1
74 Not to make a bald spot in mourning Deut. 14:1

Laws of Repentance

75 To repent and confess wrongdoings Num. 5:7

Laws of Reading the Shema

76 To say the Shema twice daily Deut. 6:7

Laws of Prayer and Kohanic Blessings

77 To serve the Almighty with prayer daily Ex. 23:25
78 The Kohanim must bless the Jewish nation daily Num. 6:23

Laws of Tefillin, Mezuza and Sefer Torah

79 To wear tefillin on the head Deut. 6:8
80 To bind tefillin on the arm Deut. 6:8
81 To put a mezuzah on each door post Deut. 6:9
82 Each male must write a Sefer Torah Deut. 31:19
83 The king must have a separate Sefer Torah for himself Deut. 17:18

Laws of Tzitzit

84 To have tzitzit on four-cornered garments Num. 15:38

Laws of Blessings

85 To bless the Almighty after eating Deut. 8:10

Laws of Circumcision

86 To circumcise all males on the eighth day after their birth Lev. 12:3

Laws of the Sabbath

87 To rest on the seventh day Ex. 23:12
88 Not to do prohibited labor on the seventh day Ex. 20:10
89 The court must not inflict punishment on Shabbat Ex. 35:3
90 Not to walk outside the city boundary on Shabbat Ex. 16:29
91 To sanctify the day with Kiddush and Havdallah Ex. 20:8

Laws of Eruvin (Rabbinical)
Laws of Yom Kippur Rest

92 To rest from prohibited labor Lev. 23:32
93 Not to do prohibited labor on Yom Kippur Lev. 23:32
94 To afflict yourself on Yom Kippur Lev. 16:29
95 Not to eat or drink on Yom Kippur Lev. 23:29

Laws of Festival Rest

96 To rest on the first day of Passover Lev. 23:7
97 Not to do prohibited labor on the first day of Passover Lev. 23:8
98 To rest on the seventh day of Passover Lev. 23:8
99 Not to do prohibited labor on the seventh day of Passover Lev. 23:8
100 To rest on Shavuot Lev. 23:21
101 Not to do prohibited labor on Shavuot Lev. 23:21
102 To rest on Rosh Hashana Lev. 23:24
103 Not to do prohibited labor on Rosh Hashana Lev. 23:25
104 To rest on Sukkot Lev. 23:35
105 Not to do prohibited labor on Sukkot Lev. 23:35
106 To rest on Shmini Atzeret Lev. 23:36
107 Not to do prohibited labor on Shmini Atzeret Lev. 23:36

Laws of Chometz and Matzah

108 Not to eat chametz on the afternoon of the 14th day of Nissan Deut. 16:3
109 To destroy all chametz on 14th day of Nissan Ex. 12:15
110 Not to eat chametz all seven days of Passover Ex. 13:3
111 Not to eat mixtures containing chametz all seven days of Passover Ex. 12:20
112 Not to see chametz in your domain seven days Ex. 13:7
113 Not to find chametz in your domain seven days Ex. 12:19
114 To eat matzah on the first night of Passover Ex. 12:18
115 To relate the exodus from Egypt on that night Ex. 13:8

Laws of Shofar, Sukkah, Lulav

116 To hear the Shofar on the first day of Tishrei (Rosh Hashana) Num. 29:1
117 To dwell in a Sukkah for the seven days of Sukkot Lev. 23:42
118 To take up a Lulav and Etrog all seven days Lev. 23:40

Laws of Shekalim

119 Each man must give a half shekel annually Ex. 30:13

Laws of Sanctification of Months

120 Courts must calculate to determine when a new month begins Ex. 12:2

Laws of Fasts

121 To afflict and cry out before God in times of catastrophe Num. 10:9

Laws of Megillah and Chanukah (Rabbinical)

Laws of Marriage

122 To marry a wife by means of ketubah and kiddushin Deut. 22:13
123 Not to have relations with women not thus married Deut. 23:18
124 Not to withhold food, clothing, and relations from your wife Ex. 21:10
125 To have children with one's wife Gen 1:28

Laws of Divorce

126 To issue a divorce by means of a "get" document Deut. 24:1
127 A man must not remarry his wife after she has married someone else Deut. 24:4

Laws of Yivum and Chalitzah (Levirate Marriage)

128 To do yibum (marry childless brother's widow) Deut. 25:5
129 To do chalitzah (freeing a widow from yibum) Deut. 25:9
130 The widow must not remarry until the ties with her brother-in-laware removed Deut. 25:5

Laws of Women

131 The court must fine one who seduces a maiden Ex. 22:15-16
132 The rapist must marry the maiden (if she chooses) Deut. 22:29
133 He is not allowed to divorce her Deut. 22:29
134 The slanderer must remain married to his wife Deut. 22:19
135 He must not divorce her Deut. 22:19

Laws of Sotah (Suspect Wife)

136 To fulfill the laws of the Sotah Num. 5:30
137 Not to put oil on her meal offering Num. 5:15
138 Not to put frankincense on her meal offering Num. 5:15

Laws of Forbidden Relations

139 Not to have relations with your mother Lev. 18:7
140 Not to have relations with your father's wife Lev. 18:8
141 Not to have relations with your sister Lev. 18:9
142 Not to have relations with your father's wife's daughter Lev. 18:11
143 Not to have relations with your son's daughter Lev. 18:10
144 Not to have relations with your daughter Lev. 18:10
145 Not to have relations with your daughter's daughter Lev. 18:10
146 Not to have relations with a woman and her daughter Lev. 18:17
147 Not to have relations with a woman and her son's daughter Lev. 18:17
148 Not to have relations with a woman and her daughter's daughter Lev. 18:17
149 Not to have relations with your father's sister Lev. 18:12
150 Not to have relations with your mother's sister Lev. 18:13
151 Not to have relations with your father's brother's wife Lev. 18:14
152 Not to have relations with your son's wife Lev. 18:15
153 Not to have relations with your brother's wife Lev. 18:16
154 Not to have relations with your wife's sister Lev. 18:18
155 A man must not have relations with a beast Lev. 18:23
156 A woman must not have relations with a beast Lev. 18:23
157 Not to have homosexual relations Lev. 18:22
158 Not to have homosexual relations with your father Lev. 18:7
159 Not to have homosexual relations with your father's brother Lev. 18:14
160 Not to have relations with a married woman Lev. 18:20
161 Not to have relations with a menstrually impure woman Lev. 18:19
162 Not to marry non-Jews Deut. 7:3
163 Not to let Moabite and Ammonite males marry into the Jewish people Deut. 23:4
164 Don't keep a third generation Egyptian convert from marrying into the Jewish people Deut. 23:8-9
165 Not to refrain from marrying a third generation Edomite convert Deut. 23:8-9
166 Not to let a mamzer marry into the Jewish people Deut. 23:3
167 Not to let a eunuch marry into the Jewish people Deut. 23:2
168 Not to castrate any male (including animals) Lev. 22:24
169 The High Priest must not marry a widow Lev. 21:14
170 The High Priest must not have relations with a widow even outside of marriage Lev. 21:15
171 The High Priest must marry a virgin maiden Lev. 21:13
172 A Kohen must not marry a divorcee Lev. 21:7
173 A Kohen must not marry a zonah (a woman who had forbidden relations) Lev. 21:7
174 A priest must not marry a chalalah (party to or product of 169-172) Lev. 21:7
175 Not to make pleasurable contact with any forbidden woman Lev. 18:6

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Laws of Forbidden Foods

176 To examine the signs of animals to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:2
177 To examine the signs of fowl to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Deut. 14:11
178 To examine the signs of fish to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:9
179 To examine the signs of locusts to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:21
180 Not to eat non-kosher animals Lev. 11:4
181 Not to eat non-kosher fowl Lev. 11:13
182 Not to eat non-kosher fish Lev. 11:11
183 Not to eat non-kosher flying insects Deut. 14:19
184 Not to eat non-kosher creatures that crawl on land Lev. 11:41
185 Not to eat non-kosher maggots Lev. 11:44
186 Not to eat worms found in fruit on the ground Lev. 11:42
187 Not to eat creatures that live in water other than fish Lev. 11:43
188 Not to eat the meat of an animal that died without ritual slaughter Deut. 14:21
189 Not to benefit from an ox condemned to be stoned Ex. 21:28
190 Not to eat meat of an animal that was mortally wounded Ex. 22:30
191 Not to eat a limb torn off a living creature Deut 12:23
192 Not to eat blood Lev. 3:17
193 Not to eat certain fats of clean animals Lev. 3:17
194 Not to eat the sinew of the thigh Gen. 32:33
195 Not to eat meat and milk cooked together Ex. 23:19
196 Not to cook meat and milk together Ex. 34:26
197 Not to eat bread from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
198 Not to eat parched grains from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
199 Not to eat ripened grains from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
200 Not to eat fruit of a tree during its first three years Lev. 19:23
201 Not to eat diverse seeds planted in a vineyard Deut. 22:9
202 Not to eat untithed fruits Lev. 22:15
203 Not to drink wine poured in service to idols Deut. 32:38

Laws of Slaughtering

204 To ritually slaughter an animal before eating it Deut. 12:21
205 Not to slaughter an animal and its offspring on the same day Lev. 22:28
206 To cover the blood (of a slaughtered beast or fowl) with earth Lev. 17:13
207 Not to take the mother bird from her children Deut. 22:6
208 To release the mother bird if she was taken from the nest Deut. 22:7

Laws of Oaths

209 Not to swear falsely in God's Name Lev. 19:12
210 Not to take God's Name in vain Ex. 20:7
211 Not to deny possession of something entrusted to you Lev. 19:11
212 Not to swear in denial of a monetary claim Lev. 19:11
213 To swear in God's Name to confirm the truth when deemed necessary by court Deut. 10:20

Laws of Vows

214 To fulfill what was uttered and to do what was avowed Deut. 23:24
215 Not to break oaths or vows Num. 30:3
216 For oaths and vows annulled, there are the laws of annulling vows explicit in the Torah Num. 30:3

Laws of The Nazir

217 The Nazir must let his hair grow Num. 6:5
218 He must not cut his hair Num. 6:5
219 He must not drink wine, wine mixtures, or wine vinegar Num. 6:3
220 He must not eat fresh grapes Num. 6:3
221 He must not eat raisins Num. 6:3
222 He must not eat grape seeds Num. 6:4
223 He must not eat grape skins Num. 6:4
224 He must not be under the same roof as a corpse Num. 6:6
225 He must not come into contact with the dead Num. 6:7
226 He must shave after bringing sacrifices upon completion of his Nazirite period Num. 6:9

Laws of Estimated Values and Vows

227 To estimate the value of people as determined by the Torah Lev. 27:2
228 To estimate the value of consecrated animals Lev. 27:12-13
229 To estimate the value of consecrated houses Lev. 27:14
230 To estimate the value of consecrated fields Lev. 27:16
231 Carry out the laws of interdicting possessions (cherem) Lev. 27:28
232 Not to sell the cherem Lev. 27:28
233 Not to redeem the cherem Lev. 27:28

Laws of Mixed Species

234 Not to plant diverse seeds together Lev. 19:19
235 Not to plant grains or greens in a vineyard Deut. 22:9
236 Not to crossbreed animals Lev. 19:19
237 Not to work different animals together Deut. 22:10
238 Not to wear sha'atnez, a cloth woven of wool and linen Deut. 22:11

Laws of Gifts to the Poor

239 To leave a corner of the field uncut for the poor Lev. 19:10
240 Not to reap that corner Lev. 19:9
241 To leave gleanings Lev. 19:9
242 Not to gather the gleanings Lev. 19:9
243 To leave the gleanings of a vineyard Lev. 19:10
244 Not to gather the gleanings of a vineyard Lev. 19:10
245 To leave the unformed clusters of grapes Lev. 19:10
246 Not to pick the unformed clusters of grapes Lev. 19:10
247 To leave the forgotten sheaves in the field Deut. 24:19
248 Not to retrieve them Deut. 24:19
249 To separate the tithe for the poor Deut. 14:28
250 To give charity Deut. 15:8
251 Not to withhold charity from the poor Deut. 15:7
252 To set aside Trumah Gedolah (tithe for the Kohen) Deut. 18:4
253 The Levite must set aside a tenth of his tithe Num. 18:26
254 Not to preface one tithe to the next, but separate them in their proper order Ex. 22:28
255 A non-Kohen must not eat Trumah Lev. 22:10
256 A hired worker or a Jewish bondsman of a Kohen must not eat Trumah Lev. 22:10
257 An uncircumcised Kohen must not eat Trumah Ex.12:48
258 An impure Kohen must not eat Trumah Lev. 22:4
259 A chalalah must not eat Trumah Lev. 22:12

Laws of Ma'aser

260 To set aside Ma'aser each planting year and give it to a Levite Num. 18:24

Laws of The Second Tithe and Fourth Year Produce

261 To set aside the second tithe (Ma'aser Sheni) Deut. 14:22
262 Not to spend its redemption money on anything but food, drink, or ointment Deut. 26:14
263 Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni while impure Deut. 26:14
264 A mourner on the first day after death must not eat Ma'aser Sheni Deut. 26:14
265 Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni grains outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17
266 Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni wine products outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17
267 Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni oil outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17
268 The fourth year crops must be totally for holy purposes like Ma'aser Sheni Lev. 19:24
269 To read the confession of tithes every fourth and seventh year Deut. 26:13

Laws of First Fruits and other Kohanic Gifts

270 To set aside the first fruits and bring them to the Temple Ex. 23:19
271 The Kohanim must not eat the first fruits outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17
272 To read the Torah portion pertaining to their presentation Deut. 26:5
273 To set aside a portion of dough for a Kohen Num. 15:20
274 To give the shoulder, two cheeks, and stomach of slaughtered animals to a Kohen Deut. 18:3
275 To give the first sheering of sheep to a Kohen Deut. 18:4
276 To redeem the firstborn sons and give the money to a Kohen Num. 18:15
277 To redeem the firstborn donkey by giving a lamb to a Kohen Ex. 13:13
278 To break the neck of the donkey if the owner does not intend to redeem it Ex. 13:13

Laws of The Sabbatical and Jubilee Years

279 To rest the land during the seventh year by not doing any work which enhances growth Ex. 34:21
280 Not to work the land during the seventh year Lev. 25:4
281 Not to work with trees to produce fruit during that year Lev. 25:4
282 Not to reap crops that grow wild that year in the normal manner Lev. 25:5
283 Not to gather grapes which grow wild that year in the normal way Lev. 25:5
284 To leave free all produce which grew in that year Ex. 23:11
285 To release all loans during the seventh year Deut. 15:2
286 Not to pressure or claim from the borrower Deut. 15:2
287 Not to refrain from lending immediately before the release of the loans for fear of monetary loss Deut. 15:9
288 The Sanhedrin must count seven groups of seven years Lev. 25:8
289 The Sanhedrin must sanctify the fiftieth year Lev. 25:10
290 To blow the Shofar on the tenth of Tishrei to free the slaves Lev. 25:9
291 Not to work the soil during the fiftieth year Lev. 25:11
292 Not to reap in the normal manner that which grows wild in the fiftieth year Lev. 25:11
293 Not to pick grapes which grew wild in the normal manner in the fiftieth year Lev. 25:11
294 Carry out the laws of sold family properties Lev. 25:24
295 Not to sell the land in Israel indefinitely Lev. 25:23
296 Carry out the laws of houses in walled cities Lev. 25:29
297 The Tribe of Levi must not be given a portion of the land in Israel, rather they are given cities to dwell in Deut. 18:1
298 The Levites must not take a share in the spoils of war Deut. 18:1
299 To give the Levites cities to inhabit and their surrounding fields Num. 35:2
300 Not to sell the fields but they shall remain the Levites' before and after the Jubilee year Lev. 25:34

luciferhorus

28-01-2010, 07:33 PM

Laws of The Temple

301 To build a Sanctuary Ex. 25:8
302 Not to build the altar with stones hewn by metal Ex. 20:22
303 Not to climb steps to the altar Ex. 20:23
304 To show reverence to the Temple Lev. 1930
305 To guard the Temple area Num. 18:2
306 Not to leave the Temple unguarded Num. 18:5

Laws of Temple Vessels and Employees

307 To prepare the anointing oil Ex. 30:31
308 Not to reproduce the anointing oil Ex. 30:32
309 Not to anoint with anointing oil Ex. 30:32
310 Not to reproduce the incense formula Ex. 30:37
311 Not to burn anything on the Golden Altar besides incense Ex. 30:9
312 The Levites must transport the ark on their shoulders Num. 7:9
313 Not to remove the staves from the ark Ex. 25:15
314 The Levites must work in the Temple Num. 18:23
315 No Levite must do another's work of either a Kohen or a Levite Num. 18:3
316 To dedicate the Kohen for service Lev. 21:8
317 The kohanic work shifts must be equal during holidays Deut. 18:6-8
318 The Kohanim must wear their priestly garments during service Ex. 28:2
319 Not to tear the priestly garments Ex. 28:32
320 The breastplate must not be loosened from the Efode Ex. 28:28

Laws of Entering the Temple

321 A Kohen must not enter the Temple intoxicated Lev. 10:9
322 A Kohen must not enter the Temple with long hair Lev. 10:6
323 A Kohen must not enter the Temple with torn clothes Lev. 10:6
324 A Kohen must not enter the Temple indiscriminately Lev. 16:2
325 A Kohen must not leave the Temple during service Lev. 10:7
326 To send the impure from the Temple Num. 5:2
327 Impure people must not enter the Temple Num. 5:3
328 Impure people must not enter the Temple Mount area Deut. 23:11
329 Impure Kohanim must not do service in the temple Lev. 22:2
330 An impure Kohen, following immersion, must wait until after sundown before returning to service Lev. 22:7
331 A Kohen must wash his hands and feet before service Ex. 30:19
332 A Kohen with a physical blemish must not enter the sanctuary or approach the altar Lev. 21:23
333 A Kohen with a physical blemish must not serve Lev.21:17
334 A Kohen with a temporary blemish must not serve Lev. 21:17
335 One who is not a Kohen must not serve Num. 18:4

Laws of Restrictions Concerning Sacrifices

336 To offer only unblemished animals Lev. 22:21
337 Not to dedicate a blemished animal for the altar Lev. 22:20
338 Not to slaughter it Lev. 22:22
339 Not to sprinkle its blood Lev. 22:24
340 Not to burn its fat Lev. 22:22
341 Not to offer a temporarily blemished animal Deut. 17:1
342 Not to sacrifice blemished animals even if offered by non-Jews Lev. 22:25
343 Not to inflict wounds upon dedicated animals Lev. 22:21
344 To redeem dedicated animals which have become disqualified Deut. 12:15
345 To offer only animals which are at least eight days old Lev. 22:27
346 Not to offer animals bought with the wages of a harlot or the animal exchanged for a dog Deut. 23:19
347 Not to burn honey or yeast on the altar Lev. 2:11
348 To salt all sacrifices Lev. 2:13
349 Not to omit the salt from sacrifices Lev. 2:13

Laws of Sacrificial Procedure

350 Carry out the procedure of the burnt offering as prescribed in the Torah Lev. 1:3
351 Not to eat its meat Deut. 12:17
352 Carry out the procedure of the sin offering Lev. 6:18
353 Not to eat the meat of the inner sin offering Lev. 6:23
354 Not to decapitate a fowl brought as a sin offering Lev. 5:8
355 Carry out the procedure of the guilt offering Lev. 7:1
356 The Kohanim must eat the sacrificial meat in the Temple Ex. 29:33
357 The Kohanim must not eat the meat outside the Temple courtyard Deut. 12:17
358 A non-Kohen must not eat sacrificial meat Ex. 29:33
359 To follow the procedure of the peace offering Lev. 7:11
360 Not to eat the meat of minor sacrifices before sprinkling the blood Deut. 12:17
361 To bring meal offerings as prescribed in the Torah Lev. 2:1
362 Not to put oil on the meal offerings of wrongdoers Lev. 5:11
363 Not to put frankincense on the meal offerings of wrongdoers Lev. 3:11
364 Not to eat the meal offering of the High Priest Lev. 6:16
365 Not to bake a meal offering as leavened bread Lev. 6:10
366 The Kohanim must eat the remains of the meal offerings Lev. 6:9
367 To bring all avowed and freewill offerings to the Temple on the first subsequent festival Deut. 12:5-6
368 Not to withhold payment incurred by any vow Deut. 23:22
369 To offer all sacrifices in the Temple Deut. 12:11
370 To bring all sacrifices from outside Israel to the Temple Deut. 12:26
371 Not to slaughter sacrifices outside the courtyard Lev. 17:4
372 Not to offer any sacrifices outside the courtyard Deut. 12:13

Laws of Constant and Additional Offerings

373 To offer two lambs every day Num. 28:3
374 To light a fire on the altar every day Lev. 6:6
375 Not to extinguish this fire Lev. 6:6
376 To remove the ashes from the altar every day Lev. 6:3
377 To burn incense every day Ex 30:7
378 To light the Menorah every day Ex. 27:21
379 The Kohen Gadol must bring a meal offering every day Lev. 6:13
380 To bring two additional lambs as burnt offerings on Shabbat Num 28:9
381 To make the show bread Ex. 25:30
382 To bring additional offerings on the New Month Num. 28:11
383 To bring additional offerings on Passover Num. 28:19
384 To offer the wave offering from the meal of the new wheat Lev. 23:10
385 Each man must count the Omer - seven weeks from the day the new wheat offering was brought Lev. 23:15
386 To bring additional offerings on Shavuot Num. 28:26
387 To bring two leaves to accompany the above sacrifice Lev. 23:17
388 To bring additional offerings on Rosh Hashana Num. 29:2
389 To bring additional offerings on Yom Kippur Num. 29:8
390 To bring additional offerings on Sukkot Num. 29:13
391 To bring additional offerings on Shmini Atzeret Num. 29:35

Laws of Disqualified Offerings

392 Not to eat sacrifices which have become unfit or blemished Deut. 14.3
393 Not to eat from sacrifices offered with improper intentions Lev. 7:18
394 Not to leave sacrifices past the time allowed for eating them Lev. 22:30
395 Not to eat from that which was left over Lev. 19:8
396 Not to eat from sacrifices which became impure Lev. 7:19
397 An impure person must not eat from sacrifices Lev. 7:20
398 To burn the leftover sacrifices Lev. 7:17
399 To burn all impure sacrifices Lev. 7:19

Laws of Yom Kippur Service

400 To follow the procedure of Yom Kippur in the sequence prescribed in Parshat Acharei Mot Lev. 16:3

Laws of Misusing Sanctified Property

401 One who profaned property must repay what he profaned plus a fifth and bring a sacrifice Lev. 5:16
402 Not to work consecrated animals Deut. 15:19
403 Not to shear the fleece of consecrated animals Deut. 15:19

Laws of Pascal Sacrifice

404 To slaughter the paschal sacrifice at the specified time Ex. 12:6
405 Not to slaughter it while in possession of leaven Ex. 23:18
406 Not to leave the fat overnight Ex. 23:18
407 To slaughter the second paschal lamb Num. 9:11
408 To eat the paschal lamb with matzah and Marror on the night of the 15th of Nissan Ex. 12:8
409 To eat the second paschal lamb on the night of the 15th of Iyar Num.9:11
410 Not to eat the paschal meat raw or boiled Ex. 12:9
411 Not to take the paschal meat from the confines of the group Ex. 12:46
412 An apostate must not eat from it Ex.12:43
413 A permanent or temporary hired worker must not eat from it Ex. 12:45
414 An uncircumcised male must not eat from it Ex. 12:48
415 Not to break any bones from the paschal offering Ex. 12:46
416 Not to break any bones from the second paschal offering Num. 9:12
417 Not to leave any meat from the paschal offering over until morning Ex. 12:10
418 Not to leave the second paschal meat over until morning Num. 9:12
419 Not to leave the meat of the holiday offering of the 14th until the 16th Deut. 16:4

Laws of Pilgrim Offerings

420 To be seen at the Temple on Passover, Shavuot, and Sukkot Deut. 16:16
421 To celebrate on these three Festivals (bring a peace offering) Ex. 23:14
422 To rejoice on these three Festivals (bring a peace offering) Deut. 16:14
423 Not to appear at the Temple without offerings Deut. 16:16
424 Not to refrain from rejoicing with, and giving gifts to, the Levites Deut. 12:19
425 To assemble all the people on the Sukkot following the seventh year Deut. 31:12

Laws of First Born Animals

426 To set aside the firstborn animals Ex. 13:12
427 The Kohanim must not eat unblemished firstborn animals outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17
428 Not to redeem the firstborn Num. 18:17
429 Separate the tithe from animals Lev. 27:32
430 Not to redeem the tithe Lev. 27:33

Laws of Offerings for Unintentional Transgressions

431 Every person must bring a sin offering for his transgression Lev. 4:27
432 Bring an asham talui when uncertain of guilt Lev. 5:17-18
433 Bring an asham vadai when guilt is ascertained Lev. 5:25
434 Bring an oleh v'yored offering (if the person is wealthy, an animal; if poor, a bird or meal offering) Lev. 5:7-11
435 The Sanhedrin must bring an offering when it rules in error Lev. 4:13

Laws of Lacking Atonement

436 A woman who had a running issue (menstruation) must bring an offering after she goes to the Mikveh Lev. 15:28-29
437 A woman who gave birth must bring an offering after she goes to the Mikveh Lev. 12:6
438 A man who had a running issue (semen) must bring an offering after he goes to the Mikveh Lev. 15:13-14
439 A metzora must bring an offering after going to the Mikveh Lev. 14:10

Laws of Substitution of Sacrifices

440 Not to substitute another beast for one set apart for sacrifice Lev. 27:10
441 The new animal, in addition to the substituted one, retains consecration Lev. 27:10
442 Not to change consecrated animals from one type of offering to another Lev. 27:26

Laws of Impurity of Human Dead

443 Carry out the laws of impurity of the dead Num. 19:14

Laws of The Red Heifer

444 Carry out the procedure of the Red Heifer Num. 19:2
445 Carry out the laws of the sprinkling water Num. 19:21

Laws of Impurity through Tzara'at

446 Rule the laws of human tzara'at as prescribed in the Torah Lev. 13:12
447 The metzora must not remove his signs of impurity Deut. 24:8
448 The metzora must not shave signs of impurity in his hair Lev. 13:33
449 The metzora must publicize his condition by tearing his garments, allowing his hair to grow and covering his lips Lev. 13:45
450 Carry out the prescribed rules for purifying the metzora Lev. 14:2
451 The metzora must shave off all his hair prior to purification Lev. 14:9
452 Carry out the laws of tzara'at of clothing Lev. 13:47
453 Carry out the laws of tzara'at of houses Lev. 13:34

Laws of Impurity of Reclining and Sitting

454 Observe the laws of menstrual impurity Lev. 15:19
455 Observe the laws of impurity caused by childbirth Lev. 12:2
456 Observe the laws of impurity caused by a woman's running issue Lev. 15:25
457 Observe the laws of impurity caused by a man's running issue Lev. 15:3

Laws of Other Sources of Impurity

458 Observe the laws of impurity caused by a dead beast Lev. 11:39
459 Observe the laws of impurity caused by the eight shratzim Lev. 11:29
460 Observe the laws of impurity of a seminal emission Lev. 15:16

Laws of Impurity of Food

461 Observe the laws of impurity concerning liquid and solid foods Lev. 11:34

Laws of Vessels (Rabbinical)
Laws of Mikveh

462 Every impure person must immerse himself in a Mikveh to become pure Lev. 15:16

Laws of Property Damage

463 The court must judge the damages incurred by a goring ox Ex. 21:28
464 The court must judge the damages incurred by an animal eating Ex. 22:4
465 The court must judge the damages incurred by a pit Ex. 21:33
466 The court must judge the damages incurred by fire Ex. 22:5

Laws of Theft

467 Not to steal money stealthily Lev. 19:11
468 The court must implement punitive measures against the thief Ex. 21:37
469 Each individual must ensure that his scales and weights are accurate Lev. 19:36
470 Not to commit injustice with scales and weights Lev. 19:35
471 Not to possess inaccurate scales and weights even if they are not for use Deut. 25:13
472 Not to move a boundary marker to steal someone's property Deut. 19:14
473 Not to kidnap Ex. 20:13

Laws of Robbery and Lost Objects

474 Not to rob openly Lev. 19:13
475 Not to withhold wages or fail to repay a debt Lev. 19:13
476 Not to covet and scheme to acquire another's possession Ex. 20:14
477 Not to desire another's possession Deut. 5:18
478 Return the robbed object or its value Lev. 5:23
479 Not to ignore a lost object Deut. 22:3
480 Return the lost object Deut. 22:1
481 The court must implement laws against the one who assaults another or damages another's property Ex. 21:18

Laws of Murder and Preservation of Life

482 Not to murder Ex. 20:13
483 Not to accept monetary restitution to atone for the murderer Num. 35:31
484 The court must send the accidental murderer to a city of refuge Num. 35:25
485 Not to accept monetary restitution instead of being sent to a city of refuge Num. 35:32
486 Not to kill the murderer before he stands trial Num. 35:12
487 Save someone being pursued even by taking the life of the pursuer Deut. 25112
488 Not to pity the pursuer Num. 35:12
489 Not to stand idly by if someone's life is in danger Lev. 19:16
490 Designate cities of refuge and prepare routes of access Deut. 19:3
491 Break the neck of a calf by the river valley following an unsolved murder Deut. 21:4
492 Not to work nor plant that river valley Deut. 21:4
493 Not to allow pitfalls and obstacles to remain on your property Deut. 22:8
494 Make a guard rail around flat roofs Deut. 22:8
495 Not to put a stumbling block before a blind man (nor give harmful advice) Lev. 19:14
496 Help another remove the load from a beast which can no longer carry it Ex. 23:5
497 Help others load their beast Deut. 22:4
498 Not to leave others distraught with their burdens (but to help either load or unload) Deut. 22:4

Laws of Sales

499 Buy and sell according to Torah law Lev. 25:14
500 Not to overcharge or underpay for an article Lev. 25:14
501 Not to insult or harm anybody with words Lev. 25:17
502 Not to cheat a sincere convert monetarily Ex. 22:20
503 Not to insult or harm a sincere convert with words Ex. 22:20

Laws of Acquisitions and Gifts (Rabbinical)
Laws of Neighbors (Rabbinical)
Laws of Agents and Partners (Rabbinical)
Laws of Slaves

504 Purchase a Hebrew slave in accordance with the prescribed laws Ex. 21:2
505 Not to sell him as a slave is sold Lev. 25:42
506 Not to work him oppressively Lev. 25:43
507 Not to allow a non-Jew to work him oppressively Lev. 25:53
508 Not to have him do menial slave labor Lev. 25;39
509 Give him gifts when he goes free Deut. 15:14
510 Not to send him away empty-handed Deut. 15:13
511 Redeem Jewish maidservants Ex. 21:8
512 Betroth the Jewish maidservant Ex. 21:8
513 The master must not sell his maidservant Ex. 21:8
514 Canaanite slaves must work forever unless injured in one of their limbs Lev. 25:46
515 Not to extradite a slave who fled to Israel Deut. 23:16
516 Not to wrong a slave who has come to Israel for refuge Deut. 23:16

Laws of Hiring

517 The courts must carry out the laws of a hired worker and hired guard Ex. 22:9
518 Pay wages on the day they were earned Deut. 24:15
519 Not to delay payment of wages past the agreed time Lev. 19:13
520 The hired worker may eat from the unharvested crops where he works Deut. 23:25
521 The worker must not eat while on hired time Deut. 23:26
522 The worker must not take more than he can eat Deut. 23:25
523 Not to muzzle an ox while plowing Deut. 25:4

Laws of Borrowing and Depositing

524 The courts must carry out the laws of a borrower Ex. 22:13
525 The courts must carry out the laws of an unpaid guard Ex. 22:6

Laws of Creditor and Debtor

526 Lend to the poor and destitute Ex. 22:24
527 Not to press them for payment if you know they don't have it Ex. 22:24
528 Press the idolater for payment Deut. 15:3
529 The creditor must not forcibly take collateral Deut. 24:10
530 Return the collateral to the debtor when needed Deut. 24:13
531 Not to delay its return when needed Deut. 24:12
532 Not to demand collateral from a widow Deut. 24:17
533 Not to demand as collateral utensils needed for preparing food Deut. 24:6
534 Not to lend with profit / interest (Usury / money-lending / loan sharking) Lev.25:37
535 Not to borrow with profit / interest Deut. 23:20
536 Not to intermediate in an interest loan, guarantee, witness, or write the promissory note Ex. 22:24
537 Lend to and borrow from idolaters with profit / interest Deut. 23:21

Laws of Plaintiff and Defendant

538 The courts must carry out the laws of the plaintiff, admitter, or denier Ex. 22:8

Laws of Inheritance

539 Carry out the laws of the order of inheritance Num. 27:8

Laws of Sanhedrin and Punishments

540 Appoint judges Deut. 16:18
541 Not to appoint judges who are not familiar with judicial procedure Deut. 1:17
542 Decide by majority in case of disagreement Ex. 23:2
543 The court must not execute through a majority of one; at least a majority of two is required Ex. 23:2
544 A judge who presented an acquittal plea must not present an argument for conviction in capital cases Deut. 23:2
545 The courts must carry out the death penalty of stoning Deut. 22:24
546 The courts must carry out the death penalty of burning Lev. 20:14
547 The courts must carry out the death penalty of the sword Ex. 21:20
548 The courts must carry out the death penalty of strangulation Lev. 20:10
549 The courts must hang those stoned for blasphemy or idolatry Deut. 21:22
550 Bury the executed on the day they are killed Deut.21:23
551 Not to delay burial overnight Deut. 21:23
552 The court must not let the sorcerer live Ex. 22:17
553 The court must give lashes to the wrongdoer Ex. 25:2
554 The court must not exceed the prescribed number of lashes Deut. 25:3
555 The court must not kill anybody on circumstantial evidence Ex. 23:7
556 The court must not punish anybody who was forced to do a crime Deut. 22:26
557 A judge must not pity the murderer or assaulter at the trial Deut. 19:13
558 A judge must not have mercy on the poor man at the trial Lev. 19:15
559 A judge must not respect the great man at the trial Lev. 19:15
560 A judge must not decide unjustly the case of the habitual transgressor Ex. 23;6
561 A judge must not pervert justice Lev. 19:15
562 A judge must not pervert a case involving a convert or orphan Deut. 24:17
563 Judge righteously Lev. 19:15
564 The judge must not fear a violent man in judgment Deut. 1:17
565 Judges must not accept bribes Ex. 23:8
566 Judges must not accept testimony unless both parties are present Ex. 23:1
567 Not to curse judges Ex. 22:27
568 Not to curse the head of state or leader of the Sanhedrin Ex. 22:27
569 Not to curse any upstanding Jew Lev. 19:14

Laws of Evidence

570 Anybody who knows evidence must testify in court Lev. 5:1
571 Carefully interrogate the witness Deut. 13:15
572 A witness must not serve as a judge in capital crimes Deut. 19:17
573 Not to accept testimony from a lone witness Deut. 19:15
574 Transgressors must not testify Ex. 23:1
575 Relatives of the litigants must not testify Deut. 24:16
576 Not to testify falsely Ex. 20:13
577 Punish the false witnesses as they tried to punish the defendant Deut. 19:19

Laws of Insurgents

578 Act according to the ruling of the Sanhedrin Deut. 17:11
579 Not to deviate from the word of the Sanhedrin Deut. 17:11
580 Not to add to the Torah commandments or their oral explanations Deut. 13:1
581 Not to diminish from the Torah any commandments, in whole or in part Deut. 13:1
582 Not to curse your father and mother Ex. 21:17
583 Not to strike your father and mother Ex. 21:15
584 Respect your father or mother Ex. 20:12
585 Fear your father or mother Lev. 19:3
586 Not to be a rebellious son Deut. 21:18

Laws of Mourning

587 Mourn for relatives Lev. 10:19
588 The High Priest must not defile himself for any relative Lev. 21:11
589 The High Priest must not enter under the same roof as a corpse Lev. 21:11
590 A Kohen must not defile himself for anyone except relatives Lev. 21:1

Laws of Kings and their Wars

591 Appoint a king from Israel Deut. 17:15
592 Not to appoint a convert Deut. 17:15
593 The king must not have too many wives Deut. 17:17
594 The king must not have too many horses Deut. 17:16
595 The king must not have too much silver and gold Deut. 17:17
596 Destroy the seven Canaanite nations Deut. 20:17
597 Not to let any of them remain alive Deut. 20:16
598 Wipe out the descendants of Amalek Deut. 25:19
599 Remember what Amalek did to the Jewish people Deut. 25:17
600 Not to forget Amalek's atrocities and ambush on our journey from Egypt in the desert Deut. 25:19
601 Not to dwell permanently in Egypt Deut. 17:16
602 Offer peace terms to the inhabitants of a city while holding siege, and treat them according to the Torah if they accept the terms Deut. 20:10
603 Not to offer peace to Ammon and Moab while besieging them Deut. 23:7
604 Not to destroy fruit trees even during the siege Deut. 20:19
605 Prepare latrines outside the camps Deut. 23:13
606 Prepare a shovel for each soldier to dig with Deut. 23:14
607 Appoint a priest to speak with the soldiers during the war Deut. 20:2
608 He who has taken a wife, built a new home, or planted a vineyard is given a year to rejoice with his possessions Deut. 24:5
609 Not to demand from the above any involvement, communal or military Deut. 24:5
610 Not to panic and retreat during battle Deut. 20:3
611 Keep the laws of the captive woman Deut. 21:11
612 Not to sell her into slavery Deut. 21:14
613 Not to retain her for servitude after having relations with her Deut. 21:14

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______________________

Lucifer
Lux e tenebris
Destroyer of Law.
In rebellion.
Aeon of Lucifer 2006

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Human Sacrifice, Cannibalism, and animal sacrifice in the Bible
From www.joyofsatan.org

Deuteronomy 12:27
And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh.

Exodus 22:29 “Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.”
Ezekiel 20:25-26 “Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good and judgments whereby they should not live; “
20:26 “And I polluted them in their own gifts in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.”
II Samuel
21:6 Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the Lord in Gib’e-ah of Saul, whom the Lord did choose.
21:9 And he delivered them into the hands of the Gib’e-on-ites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest.
21:10 And Riz’pah the daughter of A-i’ah took sackcloth, and spread it for her upon the rock, from the beginning of harvest until water dropped upon them out of heaven, and suffered neither the birds of the air to rest on them by day, nor the beasts of the field by night.

More Blood Sacrifice:
Numbers 31:25 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
31:26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:
31:27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:
31:28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:
31:29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.
31:30 And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.
31:31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
31:32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,
31:33 And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,
31:34 And threescore and one thousand asses,
31:35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.
31:36 And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:
31:37 And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.
31:38 And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and twelve.
31:39 And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and one.
31:40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.

Judges 11:34
And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
11:35
And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.
11:36
And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
11:37
And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
11:38
And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
11:39
And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
11:40
That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.
Just how obvious can this get? In Judges 11:35; Jephthah "rents" his clothes. For those of you who are unfamilair with this term, it is a hebrew and also ancient custom to rent (tear/rip) one's clothes upon the death of a loved one.
"for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back." He has made a promise to sacrifice his only daughter to jehova. It is also glaringly apparent jehova demanded this act in exchange for his victory over his enemies and "the children of Ammon" as he stated "I cannot go back."
In Judges 11:37; His daughter states "Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity" "This thing be done for me" and "bewail my virginity" Here it is obvious jehova demanded the sacrifice of a virgin.
Judges 11:39; When she returned to her father "who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man." and Judges 11:40; "the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah" This is so obvious, he sacrificed his only virgin daughter to jehova who DEMANDED this act in exchange for his securing a victory for Jephthah.

CANNIBALISM:

Deuteronomy 28:53
And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
28:54
So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
28:55
So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
28:56
The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
28:57
And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.
28:58
If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;

FOR THE RITUAL SLAUGHTER OF ANIMALS

Exodus 20:24
An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
Exodus 24:4
And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
24:5
And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.
24:6
And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
24:7
And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
24:8
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
More instructions from Jehova for blood sacrifice:
Exodus 23:18
Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the fat of my sacrifice remain until the morning.
Exodus 29:10 And thou shalt cause a bullock to be brought before the tabernacle of the congregation: and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the bullock.
29:11
And thou shalt kill the bullock before the LORD, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
29:12
And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar.
29:13
And thou shalt take all the fat that covereth the inwards, and the caul that is above the liver, and the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, and burn them upon the altar.
29:14
But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering.
29:15
Thou shalt also take one ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram.
29:16
And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar.
29:17
And thou shalt cut the ram in pieces, and wash the inwards of him, and his legs, and put them unto his pieces, and unto his head.
29:18
And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
29:19
And thou shalt take the other ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram.
29:20
Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about.
29:21
And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.
29:22
Also thou shalt take of the ram the fat and the rump, and the fat that covereth the inwards, and the caul above the liver, and the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, and the right shoulder; for it is a ram of consecration:
29:23
And one loaf of bread, and one cake of oiled bread, and one wafer out of the basket of the unleavened bread that is before the LORD:
29:24
And thou shalt put all in the hands of Aaron, and in the hands of his sons; and shalt wave them for a wave offering before the LORD.
29:25
And thou shalt receive them of their hands, and burn them upon the altar for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour before the LORD: it is an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
29:26
And thou shalt take the breast of the ram of Aaron's consecration, and wave it for a wave offering before the LORD: and it shall be thy part.
29:27
And thou shalt sanctify the breast of the wave offering, and the shoulder of the heave offering, which is waved, and which is heaved up, of the ram of the consecration, even of that which is for Aaron, and of that which is for his sons:
29:28
And it shall be Aaron's and his sons' by a statute for ever from the children of Israel: for it is an heave offering: and it shall be an heave offering from the children of Israel of the sacrifice of their peace offerings, even their heave offering unto the LORD.
29:29
And the holy garments of Aaron shall be his sons' after him, to be anointed therein, and to be consecrated in them.
29:30
And that son that is priest in his stead shall put them on seven days, when he cometh into the tabernacle of the congregation to minister in the holy place.
29:31
And thou shalt take the ram of the consecration, and seethe his flesh in the holy place.
Leviticus Chapter 1
1:1
And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
1:2
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
1:3
If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
1:4
And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
1:5
And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
1:6
And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.
1:7
And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
1:8
And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
1:9
But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of "a sweet savour unto the LORD".
1:10
And if his offering be of the flocks, namely, of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring it a male without blemish.
1:11
And he shall kill it on the side of the altar northward before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall sprinkle his blood round about upon the altar.
1:12
And he shall cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat: and the priest shall lay them in order on the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
1:13
But he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
1:14
And if the burnt sacrifice for his offering to the LORD be of fowls, then he shall bring his offering of turtledoves, or of young pigeons.
1:15
And the priest shall bring it unto the altar, and wring off his head, and burn it on the altar; and the blood thereof shall be wrung out at the side of the altar:
1:16
And he shall pluck away his crop with his feathers, and cast it beside the altar on the east part, by the place of the ashes:
1:17
And he shall cleave it with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder: and the priest shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
Leviticus Chapter 7
7:1
Likewise this is the law of the trespass offering: it is most holy.
7:2
In the place where they kill the burnt offering shall they kill the trespass offering: and the blood thereof shall he sprinkle round about upon the altar.
7:3
And he shall offer of it all the fat thereof; the rump, and the fat that covereth the inwards,
7:4
And the two kidneys, and the fat that is on them, which is by the flanks, and the caul that is above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away:
7:5
And the priest shall burn them upon the altar for an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a trespass offering.
Leviticus 7:14
And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation for an heave offering unto the LORD, and it shall be the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.
THE "LORD" NEEDS EVERY DROP OF THAT BLOOD FROM THE BLOOD SACRIFICE:
Leviticus 7:27
Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
Here, more blood sacrifice is needed to remove the curse of leprosy jehova has inflicted:
Leviticus 14:34

When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;
14:49
And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
14:50
And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water:
14:51
And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:
14:52
And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird, and with the cedar wood, and with the hyssop, and with the scarlet:
14:53
But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields, and make an atonement for the house: and it shall be clean.
14:54
This is the law for all manner of plague of leprosy, and scall,
14:55
And for the leprosy of a garment, and of a house,
14:56
And for a rising, and for a scab, and for a bright spot:
14:57
To teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy.
More examples of blood sacrifices to Jehova:
Leviticus 8:14- 32
Leviticus 9:1- 24
Leviticus 14:1- 5
Leviticus 14:12-28
Leviticus 23:12-21
Numbers 19:1- 7
Joshua Chapter 10- Nothing but mass murder
Judges 1:1- 18 More bloodbaths and mass murder
Judges 3:27- 31
This goes on and on and on. Repeats of endless mass murder and bloodshed. The word "Blood" is used over and over again. You would think this would all be so obvious.
We all must bear in mind, the nazarene was the ultimate human sacrifice; also "eat his body and drink his blood" is repeatedly recited during nearly every Christian mass/service around the world.]

More fun with the Bible on: www.joyofsatan.org

________________

http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/anarchism2sm.jpg

marpat

28-01-2010, 08:28 PM

To be completely accurate, it's the Rose Croix (call it the Uk version of SR), not A.A.S.R... But, a trinitarian christian faith is required for the Knights Templar.

I have seen a list of masonic lodges and degrees that show how they all fit together and it would seem a few require a person to profess the christian trinitarian faith so those who claim it is intended to destroy christianity are misled.

Personally I think the whole jewish-masonic conspiracy angle has been made by fundy christians in the US who disapprove of their nation being managed by people who are not christians or who they perceive to be against christian principles, hence they associate such people with evil, etc. The amount of falsehoods that come from such people in order to attack freemasons is quite staggering

grandsecretary

28-01-2010, 11:18 PM

To be completely accurate, it's the Rose Croix (call it the Uk version of SR), not A.A.S.R... But, a trinitarian christian faith is required for the Knights Templar.

Wrong, as usual.

The degree of Prince Rose Croix of Heredom is only the 18th degree of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite. Ignorant Moderns Freemasons use this as a kind of crude shorthand.

The proper term, in England, for the organisation is: The Ancient and Accepted Rite for England and Wales and its Districts and Chapters Overseas.

I know a number of Muslims who are members of the purely "symbolic" Moderns pretend version of The Knights Templar.

sofa king

29-01-2010, 03:13 AM

To be completely accurate, it's the Rose Croix (call it the Uk version of SR), not A.A.S.R... But, a trinitarian christian faith is required for the Knights Templar.

not completely true.

currently you are required to swear an oath to defend the christain faith, but you DO NOT have to be a christian to swear this oath

orage

29-01-2010, 03:15 AM

The Old Charges?

The Noachide Faith in Masonic Sources

The Old Charges - A Return to our Roots

The Chevalier Ramsay used to declare: ìFreemasonry is indeed the resurrection of the Noachide religion, that of the Patriarch Noah, that religion prior to any dogma, which allows us to go beyond the differences and oppositions of the various faithsî. [as quoted on the site of the Grand Lodge of France]

Andersonís Constitutions of 1738 could very well contain the seedbed of our religious faith and practice as Freemasons. While most masons officially claim that Freemasonry is NOT a religion, it is certainly religious so long as one has a proper understanding of the term and maintains a distinction between what religion is, and what religious means. Freemasonry opens its doors to men of every creed so long as they believe in a Supreme Deity, to whom all men are held accountable for the maintenance of certain basic universal laws, defined by Dr. Anderson as the moral law. In his 1738 [2nd] edition of the Constitutions he gave this moral law a name. The name applied by Anderson to this "moral law" was Noachide. (also variously spelled; Noahide, Noachite, NoachidÊ, Noachida). http://www.public-action.com/x/nh-freemasontracbrd/

President George Bush signed an historic resolution of both Congressional Houses, recognizing the Noachide Laws as the "bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization". He urged the United States to take a lead in "returning the world to the ethical values contained in the Seven Noahide Laws". This historically significant document is recorded as House Joint Resolution 104, Public Law 102-14.

To designate March 26, 1991, as `Education Day, U.S.A.'.

Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation was founded;

Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws;

Whereas without these ethical values and principles the edifice of civilization stands in serious peril of returning to chaos;

Whereas society is profoundly concerned with the recent weakening of these principles that has resulted in crises that beleaguer and threaten the fabric of civilized society;

Whereas the justified preoccupation with these crises must not let the citizens of this Nation lose sight of their responsibility to transmit these historical ethical values from our distinguished past to the generations of the future;

Whereas the Lubavitch movement has fostered and promoted these ethical values and principles throughout the world;

Whereas Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Lubavitch movement, is universally respected and revered and his eighty-ninth birthday falls on March 26, 1991;

Whereas in tribute to this great spiritual leader, `the rebbe', this, his ninetieth year will be seen as one of `education and giving', the year in which we turn to education and charity to return the world to the moral and ethical values contained in the Seven Noahide Laws; and

Whereas this will be reflected in an international scroll of honor signed by the President of the United States and other heads of state: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That March 26, 1991, the start of the ninetieth year of Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, leader of the worldwide Lubavitch movement, is designated as `Education Day, U.S.A.'. The President is requested to issue a proclamation calling upon the people of the United States to observe such day with appropriate ceremonies and activities.
Speaker of the House of Representatives.

Vice President of the United States and

President of the Senate. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c102:H.J.RES.104.ENR:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noachide_Laws

sofa king

29-01-2010, 03:53 AM

Wrong, as usual.

The degree of Prince Rose Croix of Heredom is only the 18th degree of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite. Ignorant Moderns Freemasons use this as a kind of crude shorthand.

The proper term, in England, for the organisation is: The Ancient and Accepted Rite for England and Wales and its Districts and Chapters Overseas.

I know a number of Muslims who are members of the purely "symbolic" Moderns pretend version of The Knights Templar.

Chapter of the Rose Croix is one of the bodies within AASR that includes, but is not limited to, the 18th degree.

humason

29-01-2010, 07:07 AM

not completely true.

currently you are required to swear an oath to defend the christain faith, but you DO NOT have to be a christian to swear this oath

I sit corrected.

@GS: Bite me.

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 09:34 AM

Chapter of the Rose Croix is one of the bodies within AASR that includes, but is not limited to, the 18th degree.

In England the Chapters of the Excellent and Perfect Princes Rose Croix of H.R.D.M. are restricted to the 18th degree. The degrees 1-3 of the Moderns Craft are considered to be "equivalents" to the first three degrees of the Ancient and Accepted Rite.

A Lodge of Perfection is opened in order to confer the 11 "Intermediate" degrees from the 4th to the 16th. They are conferred by name only as follows: Secret Master; Perfect Master; Intimate Secretary; Provost and Judge; Intendant of the Building; Elect of Nine; Elect of Fifteen; Sublime Elect; Grand Master Architect; Royal Arch or Enoch; Grand Elect Perfect and Sublime Master. It is then closed.

A Lodge of Knights of the East and West is then opened and the 17th degree, Knight of the East and West is conferred. It is then closed.

The Chapter then carries out an initiation ceremony known as "Perfection", which is the 18th degree.

"Higher Degrees" are conferred by the Supreme Council only. This does not take place in a Chapter of Perfect Princes Rose Croix of H.R.D.M.

stewart edwards

29-01-2010, 10:12 AM

Peter

What is the point in having the 4-17 degrees if they are not worked? I mean if lip service is all that is paid to them why have them?

At first glance it seems to promote darkness (and I mean no offense by this) as it could easily elevate your ego to believe that you "know it all and have learnt the lessons of these degrees". Or is everyone who gets the 18th screened to ensure that they have taken suffieicnt steps in life that prove that they have mastered the lessons of these degrees? Or would that just be wishful thinking?

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 11:59 AM

Interesting points Stewart.

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 12:19 PM

All that it is, is an hierarchical system of patronage. A system of lower and higher degrees, and nothing more. Skipping straight to the 18th degree proves it, and then, later, skipping from the 18th to the 30th proves it even more. There is NO system of teaching and learning attached to any of it.

There is no Masonic"work" at ANY level.

Moreso, there is no UNDERSTANDING of what Freemasonry IS. I stress that I do NOT mean an understanding of the rituals, that is not Freemasonry.

How do you "work" towards something when you do not know what that "something" is?

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 02:01 PM

So is there any point to those degrees?

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 02:02 PM

So is there any point to those degrees?

No. There is no point to any of the Moderns rituals except to provide a compulsory diversion away from engaging in "real politique".

sofa king

29-01-2010, 02:06 PM

In England the Chapters of the Excellent and Perfect Princes Rose Croix of H.R.D.M. are restricted to the 18th degree. The degrees 1-3 of the Moderns Craft are considered to be "equivalents" to the first three degrees of the Ancient and Accepted Rite.

A Lodge of Perfection is opened in order to confer the 11 "Intermediate" degrees from the 4th to the 16th. They are conferred by name only as follows: Secret Master; Perfect Master; Intimate Secretary; Provost and Judge; Intendant of the Building; Elect of Nine; Elect of Fifteen; Sublime Elect; Grand Master Architect; Royal Arch or Enoch; Grand Elect Perfect and Sublime Master. It is then closed.

A Lodge of Knights of the East and West is then opened and the 17th degree, Knight of the East and West is conferred. It is then closed.

The Chapter then carries out an initiation ceremony known as "Perfection", which is the 18th degree.

"Higher Degrees" are conferred by the Supreme Council only. This does not take place in a Chapter of Perfect Princes Rose Croix of H.R.D.M.

fact remains GS, what humason said was not incorrect.
you didn't need to be so condescending to him.

The Chapter of the Rose Croix is 15th-18th, 17th-18th or 18th only, depending on juridiction. So let's not get too worked up about it.

sofa king

29-01-2010, 02:08 PM

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 02:11 PM

fact remains GS, what humason said was not incorrect.
you didn't need to be so condescending to him.

The Chapter of the Rose Croix is 15th-18th, 17th-18th or 18th only, depending on juridiction. So let's not get too worked up about it.

Yes, it was incorrect.

"Chapters" in England are restricted to one initiation ceremony ONLY, the 18th degree. There are no other initiation rituals allowed, except the 18th degree. Lower degrees are conferred, by name only, and not "worked".

If a lower degree is worked in America it would not be worked in a Chapter of Princes Rose Croix but in a Lodge of Knights of the East and of the West.

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 02:16 PM

But the point is:

"Why have the degrees there if there is no lodge significance to them"

Am I correct?

Unless conferring the titles is significant?

Chris

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 02:18 PM

But the point is:

"Why have the degrees there if there is no lodge significance to them"

Am I correct?

Unless conferring the titles is significant?

Chris

Yes, you are correct. Only the number is significant.

"I am an 18th degree Freemason". "I am a 30th degree Freemason".

You see it all the time on forums, particularly in the introductions and signature areas. It suggests that if someone has a higher degree that he is in some way more qualified than somebody who doesn't. What we can plainly see here is that it is simply a hierarchical structure conferred due to no merit whatsoever. In America you simply buy the "higher degrees".

Pointless:

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 02:28 PM

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 02:32 PM

I have met and dined with a 27th degree mason, what did that mean to me..
not too much.

What did mean a lot to me was that he was kind and considerate, an excellent conversationalist and a humanitarian.

But I always believed that to attain that level (or any level in masonry) there had to be a serious comittment and altruism (I know GS will disagree with me about moderns masonry here)

Chris

No, NONE whatsoever. Been there. Seen it. Got the tee-shirt. The video sums it up EXACTLY. There is no work either for oneself or for the community at large, whatsoever. ZERO.

Let's put our cards on the table. This is a system where men who achieve little or nothing in "real" life may obtain a "superior rank" in the Masons by little or no need for intelligence, and absolutely no personal effort other than turning up, paying the fees and "keeping the nose clean".

I ask AGAIN, what freemasonry does a 27th degree mason DO for the benefit of society at large? How is it different to that of a 26th degree mason for instance? It is often said that it is a "badge of recognition". For what?

You are not a Freemason yet. You will find out after you have "saluted" Grand Officers a few hundred times. They "love" it, and that is what you will be chasing too. The dark blue apron and the acclamation.

Pointless.

sofa king

29-01-2010, 02:49 PM

Yes, it was incorrect.

"Chapters" in England are restricted to one initiation ceremony ONLY, the 18th degree. There are no other initiation rituals allowed, except the 18th degree. Lower degrees are conferred, by name only, and not "worked".

If a lower degree is worked in America it would not be worked in a Chapter of Princes Rose Croix but in a Lodge of Knights of the East and of the West.

In North America, there are 3, 4 or 5 bodies of AASR, depending on jurisdiction.

Each works its own degrees. Some are conferred, some are worked.

Problem is that they are done via the "reunion" so one can reach 32nd over 3 weekends or in some cases a single weekend.

sofa king

29-01-2010, 02:51 PM

Yes, you are correct. Only the number is significant.

"I am an 18th degree Freemason". "I am a 30th degree Freemason".

You see it all the time on forums, particularly in the introductions and signature areas. It suggests that if someone has a higher degree that he is in some way more qualified than somebody who doesn't. What we can plainly see here is that it is simply a hierarchical structure conferred due to no merit whatsoever. In America you simply buy the "higher degrees".

Pointless:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXvfileSEyc

sad, but true.

and then they walk around saying "I'm a 32nd and that makes me more of a mason than you"

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 02:53 PM

Looking as one from the outside,

I don't know what goes on in a lodge during masonic workings so I don't want to comment.

I have been to a few masonic festive boards, Masters installation dinners and one open night.

What did I see there?

I saw a social occasion where men bonded and enjoyed each other's company, men of differing faiths (a bloody miracle in Northern Ireland - where people are constantly looking to see from your last name or how you pronounce words what side of the fence you come from!)being able to sit together and laugh.

I saw the charitable contributions, the raffles and before all these took place, there was an address on the workings of these charities, most of the charities that I have seen represented were of the vein of the Ulster Cancer Foundation etc (which is very close to me as my fiance is going through her second bout of cancer at the moment)

I am very young and awkward compared to the people who generally frequent these events, I was treated with kindness and good humour.

These are my observations from the outside.

I respect that GS is referring to the spiritual content (I hope I am correct on that) and for that I can't answer as yet

Chris

rydeon

29-01-2010, 02:58 PM

Freemasonary is about knowledge, secret knowledge.

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 03:05 PM

What secret knowledge?

esoteric in nature or stonemasonry secrets/way of recognising each other?

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 03:16 PM

Freemasonary is about knowledge, secret knowledge.

Quite right rydeon, but it was lost, in fact "ditched" 300 years ago.

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 03:20 PM

What secret knowledge?

esoteric in nature or stonemasonry secrets/way of recognising each other?

We are not arguing with you az. There is none in the Moderns system of freemasonry.

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 03:21 PM

Is this to do with the information pertaining to freemasonry being burned/lost?
And does this link to the lost word? or was that desaguliers again

stopthemadness

29-01-2010, 03:35 PM

Freemasonry is a Jewish Control Mechanism. It is designed to keep occult knowledge of the very real astral dimensions out of the hands of gentiles. They keep a monopoly over the Ancient Mysteries for their own perverted, selfish, and evil purposes.

It distracts/derails otherwise intelligent, spiritual, & open-minded Goyim from finding a higher path. They (the Jewish sorcerers) have been using this occult knowledge for centuries against the gentile nations of the world.

The Source of All is not going to allow this to continue. As we speak these devils in the shadows are being exposed. For the sake of all humans on the planet this "organization" is being exposed for what it is ... just another Jewish swindle.

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 03:41 PM

Is this to do with the information pertaining to freemasonry being burned/lost?
And does this link to the lost word? or was that desaguliers again

The word that was "lost" was "Freemasonry".

No longer.

sofa king

29-01-2010, 03:41 PM

stewart edwards

29-01-2010, 03:41 PM

sad, but true.

and then they walk around saying "I'm a 32nd and that makes me more of a mason than you"And you let this happen?

If it wasnt for the fact that I have been there done that and got the t shirt I would say bewildering. But I am just one man who became lost. You are one of the leading institutions in our world to help people find their way. So I suppose that it is a perverse compliment that darkness has been able to penetrate to make the masonic world impotent.

Sofa King, what is the masonic world waiting for to find what it has lost and get back on track? A conspiracy theory messiah! Do what I did, get of your backside and make things better.

Backside = suppose to be a sort of pun on sofa king - no offense intended

sofa king

29-01-2010, 03:56 PM

And you let this happen?

no, I dont tolerate it. I have a thing abut some masons taking a stance of superiority because they attended a rite or body that another did not.

I remind them that there is no degree higher than that of a master mason.

besides, I'm in AASR but I don't run around telling people I am. To me, it is additional knowledge, education, learning. But it is not higher than being a Master Mason.

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 03:57 PM

It dosen't matter if they are a mason or not, there will always be pricks that "think" they are better than you in this life (a self defence mechanism on their part)

I always let people think that if they need to, because what they or what anyone else thinks is of little importance to me. My prime concern in this life is how I act, in my last moments I want to be able with confidence to say to the maker "I did try to live up to your expectation".

That's all any of us can really want to boast about

rodin

29-01-2010, 03:58 PM

We are not Antients. The Grand Lodge of All England is above crude party politics.

Does the Grand Lodge use theatrical or other initiation rituals?

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 04:01 PM

By the way I am disgusted by the anti-semtic comments present here.

You can't blame a race of people for anything!

If you must blame individuals, don't hide behind vague racist suggestions.

sofa king

29-01-2010, 04:04 PM

It dosen't matter if they are a mason or not, there will always be pricks that "think" they are better than you in this life (a self defence mechanism on their part)

very true.

and we then remind them that their attitude is unmasonic.

decim

29-01-2010, 04:09 PM

We don't need no stinking badges..

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 04:26 PM

I never said you did...

stewart edwards

29-01-2010, 04:34 PM

no, I dont tolerate it. I have a thing abut some masons taking a stance of superiority because they attended a rite or body that another did not.

I remind them that there is no degree higher than that of a master mason.

besides, I'm in AASR but I don't run around telling people I am. To me, it is additional knowledge, education, learning. But it is not higher than being a Master Mason.Excellent sofa king. But until the masonic world decides as a whole to follow you here the problem will remain.

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 04:37 PM

stewart edwards

29-01-2010, 04:45 PM

But it's not the "masonic world" surely its a given to the educated mason that all degrees after the sublime Master Mason degree are additional?

Again that's as someone from the outside looking in on a frosted window.

It's just that certain people are pricks, they are pricks in all aspects of their life, they just use masonry as a vehicle for their "prickyness"

ChrisThe masonic world is not everyday world. It may reflect society but it should be leading and inspiring, not being brought down to the level of darkness in society. Otherwise what is the point of it? You may as well throw away the ritual et all and have a jolly good social club without pretening to be something else.

sofa king

29-01-2010, 04:46 PM

Excellent sofa king. But until the masonic world decides as a whole to follow you here the problem will remain.

it is changing, slowly

as the old timers stop coming, the younger, enlightened members start to make these changes.

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 04:49 PM

Does the Grand Lodge use theatrical or other initiation rituals?

Not theatrical, but yes there are initiation rituals.

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 04:49 PM

You know what I mean though Stewart.

But the "masonic world" permeates the mason's life, in how he deals with people within society,family and how the mason views himself.

stewart edwards

29-01-2010, 04:51 PM

You know what I mean though Stewart.indeed;)

But the "masonic world" permeates the mason's life, in how he deals with people within society,family and how the mason views himself.Which is why it is vitally important that the masonic world is actually masonic, for if unmasonic behaviour is tolerated this too will feed through into society and lead to lodges acting as drains of darkness as opposed to community beacons of light.

Just look to some of the unmasonic behaviour in the past on this forum to see how it can do harm.

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 04:53 PM

very true.

and we then remind them that their attitude is unmasonic.

You are reminding them that although the entire system is based upon a hierarchy, that it is un-Masonic to exercise it? Don't you see the idiocy of the whole thing?

Don't have a hierarchy in the first place. Have Freemasonry. The equality of the Brethren is, after all, an Ancient Landmark.

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 04:56 PM

But it's not the "masonic world" surely its a given to the educated mason that all degrees after the sublime Master Mason degree are additional?

Chris who is doing this number on you? You should not mix with either the deceivers or those who are stupid enough to swallow this hogwash.

You are repeating the mantra and you haven't even joined!

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 04:59 PM

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 05:06 PM

In your constitution are you all equal GS?

So there is no degree system - is that what you are talking about (ref we are all freemasons?)

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 05:09 PM

Nobody...

I thought this was the standard understanding that masonically there is no higher position than Master Mason.

Every other degree is an appendant degree to the three craft degrees designed to elucidate further the lessons of the blue lodge degrees.

Am I incorrect?

Propaganda. NOBODY "salutes" a Master Mason I can assure you. It is a hierarchy with the Duke of Kent sitting at the top of the pyramid.

Freemasons would hang their own grandmother for a dark blue apron - Sir James Stubbs

azaziel01

29-01-2010, 05:13 PM

I am confused...

So there are higher degrees than being a master mason masonically?

<does this start going into the other thread about Higher Degree/Orders?>

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 05:24 PM

In your constitution are you all equal GS?

So there is no degree system - is that what you are talking about (ref we are all freemasons?)

Of course.

"Ancient Craft Masonry consisted of a single degree, the Fellow-Craft. The Master's degree is little more than one hundred and fifty years old, if, indeed, it has been a degree, and not merely a ceremony of investiture with office, so long as that." (SOURCE: Albert Pike, 1868)

stewart edwards

29-01-2010, 05:25 PM

Propaganda. NOBODY "salutes" a Master Mason I can assure you. It is a hierarchy with the Duke of Kent sitting at the top of the pyramid.Someone once told me that one day I could well be getting saluted by five or even seven. Peter are you able to tell me what this means? I understand if you can't.

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 05:27 PM

I am confused...

So there are higher degrees than being a master mason masonically?

<does this start going into the other thread about Higher Degree/Orders?>

YES and don't let anyone tell you any different because they are either deluded or part of the deception.

NOBODY salutes a Master Mason. Does not happen yet at EVERY meeting holders of "rank" ARE saluted. You work it out.

sofa king

29-01-2010, 05:33 PM

YES and don't let anyone tell you any different because they are either deluded or part of the deception.

NOBODY salutes a Master Mason. Does not happen yet at EVERY meeting holders of "rank" ARE saluted. You work it out.

On this side of the pond, the only salutes given are to the man sitting in the East and only in open lodge when he is sitting in the East. This is a respect for his office.

I have never seen anyone in dark blue being saluted.

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 05:39 PM

Someone once told me that one day I could well be getting saluted by five or even seven. Peter are you able to tell me what this means? I understand if you can't.

The Salutes when given shall be as follows:

M.W. Brethren, eleven; the Deputy and Assistant Grand Masters, present and past, nine; other R.W. Brethren, seven; V.W. Brethren, five; other Grand Officers, present and past, three.

Within their own Provinces and Districts, present Deputy and Assistant Provincial and District Grand Masters, five; and other Provincial and District Grand Officers, present and past, three; and, in London holders of Senior London Grand Rank, London Grand Rank, three; and, in Lodges abroad not under Districts, holders of Overseas Grand Rank and Overseas Rank, three.

(SOURCE: Rule 6, Book of Constitutions UGLE 1999)

It has been updated since my old copy with a whole new raft of Metropolitan Grand Ranks with their own salutes.

Master Masons do the saluting Az!

stewart edwards

29-01-2010, 05:49 PM

Thanks Peter. I hadnt really given much thought to this. So I guess that someone thinks that I would make a good deputy provincial grand master and above. Cool. Academic obviously but cool nontheless.

But what has saluting got to do with freemasonry? Do you think that "they" would mind if I asked people not to salute me?

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 05:55 PM

On this side of the pond, the only salutes given are to the man sitting in the East and only in open lodge when he is sitting in the East. This is a respect for his office.

I have never seen anyone in dark blue being saluted.

You will tell us next that you do not have a system of "ranks".

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 05:55 PM

sofa king

29-01-2010, 05:56 PM

But what has saluting got to do with freemasonry? Do you think that "they" would mind if I asked people not to salute me?

as I said in my post, I only salute the master and only in open lodge when he is seated.

this is a sign of respect for his office.

outside of lodge he and any other past master or anyone wearing dark blue get a handshake and thats it.

sofa king

29-01-2010, 05:57 PM

You will tell us next that you do not have a system of "ranks".

did I say that?

or is this the only way to respond to you not being correct?

I answered factually. There is no system of saluting on this side of the pond like you think it is.

Peter, please, what is practiced in the UK is not necessarily practiced everywhere.

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 06:10 PM

did I say that?

or is this the only way to respond to you not being correct?

I answered factually. There is no system of saluting on this side of the pond like you think it is.

Peter, please, what is practiced in the UK is not necessarily practiced everywhere.

Oh I know. It is a shambles.

You do have a system of Masonic Rank though don't you? I have been to meetings in America many times remember.

luciferhorus

29-01-2010, 06:12 PM

Nobody...

I thought this was the standard understanding that masonically there is no higher position than Master Mason.

Every other degree is an appendant degree to the three craft degrees designed to elucidate further the lessons of the blue lodge degrees.

Am I incorrect?

See http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1058592557#post1058592557
(On the 33 and 38 degrees of knowledge.)

LL

Lux

sofa king

29-01-2010, 06:18 PM

Oh I know. It is a shambles.

You do have a system of Masonic Rank though don't you? I have been to meetings in America many times remember.

don't deflect.

we are still talking about saluting

grandsecretary

29-01-2010, 06:29 PM

don't deflect.

we are still talking about saluting

I accept what you say, if you do not salute in your lodge or your Grand Lodge then I am pleased to hear it. There is no way of checking anyway but your word is good enough for me. But the system of hierarchy is still there though, isn't it?

decim

29-01-2010, 06:41 PM

No you didn't...can you quote me saying I did?

I never said you did...