FM link to John the Baptist as patron.

[primordialman]

Greetings (however i will not lick your boots) i have read various sources as profane member of your global order telling me that your patron Saint is John the Baptist he was extremely important to the Knights Templar and the foundation of Freemasonry also to this Gnostic religious sect Mandaeism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia based in Iraq of all places how ironic. Question then to different FMS individually on the question then yes or no. :confused:

[stevepenny]

Greetings (however i will not lick your boots) i have read various sources as profane member of your global order telling me that your patron Saint is John the Baptist he was extremely important to the Knights Templar and the foundation of Freemasonry also to this Gnostic religious sect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism based in Iraq of all places how ironic. Question then to different FMS individually on the question then yes or no. :confused:

What is or was the question?

[primordialman]

The question is in the title and well detailed in my post "How is this not clear?

I suppose you are doing this delibrately I am getting a feeling of rising pride seems my question must be a good one!.
Seems I am threat to FMS downunder too, you black list your enemies dont you!. It only fuels my fire and encourages my enmity so you may as well answer it!:cool:

[stevepenny]

The question is in the title and well detailed in my post "How is this not clear?

I suppose you are doing this delibrately I am getting a feeling of rising pride seems my question must be a good one!.
Seems I am threat to FMS downunder too, you black list your enemies dont you!. It only fuels my fire and encourages my enmity so you may as well answer it!:cool:

Why do you think any Freemason would want to answer a question placed in such an arrogant manner? Your OP stated:

...i have read various sources as profane member of your global order telling me that your patron Saint is John the Baptist he was extremely important to the Knights Templar and the foundation of Freemasonry also to this Gnostic religious sect Mandaeism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia based in Iraq of all places how ironic. Question then to different FMS individually on the question then yes or no.

So again I ask what is the question. Are you asking if John the Baptist is the Masonic Patron Saint, or if he is linked to the Templars, or the foundation of Freemasonry or the Mandeans, or perhaps all the former. Do you want a full answer or just a Yes or No as you have stated.

If you come back in such an arrogant way then you will not get an answer; it's your call.

[marpat]

Greetings (however i will not lick your boots) i have read various sources as profane member of your global order telling me that your patron Saint is John the Baptist he was extremely important to the Knights Templar and the foundation of Freemasonry also to this Gnostic religious sect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism based in Iraq of all places how ironic. Question then to different FMS individually on the question then yes or no. :confused:

If you read the bible it would appear that John the baptist was very important to Jesus. Did he not baptise him and say he was the one who was sent? if this is the case then why should he not be important to freemasons/ templars or anybody else who holds him in high regard? I am not a freemason by the way.

[mike martin]

Greetings (however i will not lick your boots) i have read various sources as profane member of your global order telling me that your patron Saint is John the Baptist :

To help you a little as you made a good start but only have half the picture!

Masonic Lodges in the 18th Century were actually dedicated to both the Saints (plural) John, that is the Baptist and the Evangelist both of them. Both of their feasts were important to the early Freemasons.

Mike

[stevepenny]

To help you a little as you made a good start but only have half the picture!

Masonic Lodges in the 18th Century were actually dedicated to both the Saints (plural) John, that is the Baptist and the Evangelist both of them. Both of their feasts were important to the early Freemasons.

Mike

Mike,

I'm surprised you even answered this guy given his arrogance ;) However, in the spirit of 'Brotherhood' and with regard to the Templars; both Saints are included in two of the seven libations.:)

[diamond dogs]

I have also heard that Mary Magdalene (MM) also plays an important part of early freemasonry although I cannot find any link it is something that sticks in my mind..is this an opinion that can be clarified?

[decim]

One of the 'libations' being blood.

Human skulls, in fact entire human skeletons were available for purchase in the UK until relatively recently.

In the Orders of the Knights Templar during the Middle Ages, real blood was drunk from real skulls. This is not done any more, wine is substituted, although blood may be drawn from the arm and used for a blood signature.

[primordialman]

Mike [/QUOTE]
To help you a little as you made a good start but only have half the picture!

Masonic Lodges in the 18th Century were actually dedicated to both the Saints (plural) John, that is the Baptist and the Evangelist both of them. Both of their feasts were important to the early Freemasons.

Mike

Thankyou much appreciated, and very wise response and strategy when dealing with profane members of the global public. As i see it, goes without saying i will only respond to those that have the courtesy and manners to respond to me, all others can be dammed as you have already sealed the PR coffin of their respective orgainisations.


Your OP stated:Why do you think any Freemason would want to answer a question placed in such an arrogant manner?
As for arrogance SP i am surprised icke lets you and several FMs here get away with your level of arrogance considering the forum was originally setup with the aim of exposing your type and giving you a bad name.

Blame icke & other prominent figures for that not me I am merely following a growing movement i couldnt I resist with such shadowy arrogant figures such as your self representing it!. Better still you could always move Downunder no one seems to mention or even criticise your ilk down here!.

[mike martin]

I have also heard that Mary Magdalene (MM) also plays an important part of early freemasonry although I cannot find any link it is something that sticks in my mind..is this an opinion that can be clarified?
The reason you can't find it in any Masonic context is because it is an invention. The Magdelene idea first appeared in a book written by three non-Freemasons (although one of them joined later) called "Holy Blood Holy Grail" the idea was then later copied by Dan Brown in the "Davinci Code". This is why they took him to court for plaigirism.

Mike

[diamond dogs]

The reason you can't find it in any Masonic context is because it is an invention. The Magdelene idea first appeared in a book written by three non-Freemasons (although one of them joined later) called "Holy Blood Holy Grail" the idea was then later copied by Dan Brown in the "Davinci Code". This is why they took him to court for plaigirism.

Mike


Thanks for clarifying Mike..however I have a suspicion that it could have some merit (an inclination) If the book is still available, I would like to read it..does the book state there is a connection with MM and the Holy Grail..intriguing nonetheless?

I haven't watched Da Vinci code or any other film for years...

[mike martin]

Thanks for clarifying Mike..however I have a suspicion that it could have some merit (an inclination) If the book is still available, I would like to read it..does the book state there is a connection with MM and the Holy Grail afayk..intriguing nonetheless?

I haven't watched Da Vinci code or any other film for years...

No it doesn't make a specific link but claims that Freemasonry is part of a continuing "protective" line of the Magdelane.

You can read online here http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archivos_pdf/holyblood_holygrail.pdf

Or you can probably pick it up for a couple of quids on ebay or www.abebooks.co.uk , same with the DV Code.

Mike

[diamond dogs]

No it doesn't make a specific link but claims that Freemasonry is part of a continuing "protective" line of the Magdelane.

You can read online here http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archivos_pdf/holyblood_holygrail.pdf

Or you can probably pick it up for a couple of quids on ebay or www.abebooks.co.uk , same with the DV Code.

Mike

Thx for that on MM...MM

[primordialman]

Still yet to fully have my original thread questioned answered though all.What is John the Baptists connection to the Mandaeists the Gnostic sect in persia/iraq, was it not true the Knight Templar come back from the crusades with some of their ripped off ideas just so they could form the psuedo gnostic Knights templar latter to be Freemasonry.

I know about the calvinists and the Baptist church as being pretty much a Freemasonic innovation in christian theology as well that is why they place all the emphasis on John the Baptist in truth they put him on higher pedestal than Jesus Christ just like your mob no surprsies what the baptist church and calvinists are all about then, a back door to the craft, a large number of their preachers are Freemasons also.

I am being treated like complete profane fool yet truth be known i know far more about your origins than most of you would give credit for, infact you have no idea whom your dealing with, so it would wise to respect my forum entity until you do have more idea of my knowledge base!.:cool:

[stevepenny]

I have also heard that Mary Magdalene (MM) also plays an important part of early freemasonry although I cannot find any link it is something that sticks in my mind..is this an opinion that can be clarified?

I think what you are referring too is the legend that Mary Magdelane and Joseph of Arimithea travelled to the UK after the death of Jesus, bringing with them the Holy Grail. This Grail is supposed to be buried in Rosslyn Chapel which has both Templar and Masonic links.

[stevepenny]

Still yet to fully have my original thread questioned answered though all

Despite the fact that your arrogance does not warrant an answer I will try to sort out your confusion:

What is John the Baptists connection to the Mandaeists the Gnostic sect in persia/iraq

The Mandeans are a monotheistic sect largely located in Iraq and some surrounding countries. They follow the teachings of John the Baptist and believe Jesus to be a false Messiah. You can read more about them in "The secret Adam, a study of Nasoraean gnosis" by Ethel Stefano.

was it not true the Knight Templar come back from the crusades with some of their ripped off ideas just so they could form the psuedo gnostic Knights templar latter to be Freemasonry .

You going to have to be more specific with the subject of 'Ripped off ideas'; with regarsd the Templars they are overtly Christian, and hold Jesus in higher regard that John the Baptist.

I know about the calvinists and the Baptist church as being pretty much a Freemasonic innovation in christian theology

I don't know what you think you know, but you are wrong. Do you really think that John the Baptist and John Calvin were Freemasons?

...as well that is why they place all the emphasis on John the Baptist in truth they put him on higher pedestal than Jesus Christ just like your mob

Firstly John Calvin did not place anyone higher than Jesus. Secondly Baptists take their name from....yep, you guessed it, John the Baptist...so it would be a fair guess to suggest he is a prominent figure. Thirdly Freemasonry in general does not place Jesus anywhre specifically.

no surprsies what the baptist church and calvinists are all about then, a back door to the craft, a large number of their preachers are Freemasons also.

If you would like to provide some proof for this...?

I am being treated like complete profane fool yet truth be known i know far more about your origins than most of you would give credit for, infact you have no idea whom your dealing with, so it would wise to respect my forum entity until you do have more idea of my knowledge base!.:cool:

You are being treated like an arrogant fool, because that is how you are acting. Respect begets respect; in other words, be respectful, and you will be treated respectfully.

As for your knowledge of the Craft, then I would have to say that judging by what you have written in the last few days that even those with a basic knowledge need not fear crossing swords with you. ;)

As to your last point, if you want respect; then be respectful in the first place.

[deathbeast]

"I am merely following a growing movement"
growing movement, go the fecking toilet then you great lump!
honestly the crap and utter pish that gets spouted on here by some people who don't have an intelligent cell in their bodies, it really is astonishing!
what is so shadowy about not sharing secrets? what are you scared that your missing out on something? a piece of free advice for you soup man, apply to join the craft and you might make a friend and realize that we aren't some nefarious sect hell bent on sacrificing virgins and drinking blood out of skulls and singing the stonecutters song (even though that would be kind of cool) quick question, why are you so against Freemasons? a genuine question (you can skip the rant, it was not directed at you personally more the witless wonders who frequent this site, so if i have offended you accept my apologies)

[primordialman]

"I am merely following a growing movement"
growing movement, go the fecking toilet then you great lump!
honestly the crap and utter pish that gets spouted on here by some people who don't have an intelligent cell in their bodies, it really is astonishing!
what is so shadowy about not sharing secrets?
You must feel big making those tough statements from your living room big man. If within several metres of me i would have no hestiation in a good old one two to the jaw. Really if you going to look or tuff you better back your threats. So pussy bros in Aus mobilise I am ready and waiting to defend my honour, civic jester suit or otherwise.

It would indeed be good to have something concrete i finally give lesson to. On bigger scale your civilisation is going down GFC was just the start your clueless cult has no solution except police state measures. If cops like being punching bags they better get ready for war in the next few years in the western nations because they are going to need to.

As for following you couldnt be more more of mind controlled drone loser than to get mixed in such a mind control cult, bad move for you idiot. More than likely i know more about your dirty little cult than you. I simply post here to get the views of those involved rather than speculate through books or docos or other media.
So yeh you could say my questions are loaded so what!.:rolleyes:

[keystone]

....... If within several metres of me i would have no hestiation in a good old one two to the jaw.....Oh - fisticuffs being offered. That'll brighten the place up a bit. OK I'll be starting a book. Place your bets 'ere please. :D

Cheers

[mike martin]

Oh - fisticuffs being offered. That'll brighten the place up a bit. OK I'll be starting a book. Place your bets 'ere please. :D
Very little substance as one or other is going to have to fly several thousand miles for the kick off.

Mike

[keystone]

Very little substance as one or other is going to have to fly several thousand miles for the kick off.

MikeOh bugger - thats a tidy little profit out of the window then! Is it possible to arrange virtual or cyber sparring do you think? :D

Cheers

[primordialman]

am merely following a growing movement"
growing movement, go the fecking toilet then you great lump!
honestly the crap and utter pish that gets spouted on here by some people who don't have an intelligent cell in their bodies, it really is astonishing!
what is so shadowy about not sharing secrets?
Actaully i suppose i should also consider this a Masonic Platitudinal attempt to play the extreme rightwing of the Hegelian Dialetic ha ha, today its the neo nazi tough talking neo darwinist tomorrow who nows, it might be the bleeding heart liberal pot luck really with you mob, whatever the case dont under estimate dear sirs i have all ideological bases covered!:p :p

[se19_london]

"
You must feel big making those tough statements from your living room big man. If within several metres of me i would have no hestiation in a good old one two to the jaw. Really if you going to look or tuff you better back your threats. So pussy bros in Aus mobilise I am ready and waiting to defend my honour, civic jester suit or otherwise.

It would indeed be good to have something concrete i finally give lesson to. On bigger scale your civilisation is going down GFC was just the start your clueless cult has no solution except police state measures. If cops like being punching bags they better get ready for war in the next few years in the western nations because they are going to need to.

As for following you couldnt be more more of mind controlled drone loser than to get mixed in such a mind control cult, bad move for you idiot. More than likely i know more about your dirty little cult than you. I simply post here to get the views of those involved rather than speculate through books or docos or other media.
So yeh you could say my questions are loaded so what!.:rolleyes:


zzzZZZZZ you're boring mate......

"look at me - im contraversial"

zzzzZZZZZZZZZZ

[grandsecretary]

St John the Baptist plays a key role in both forms of freemasonry. In the Moderns version it is less obvious because of the changes that were made from 1717 onwards, and yet the Order of Holy Royal Arch Knights Templar Priests, in particular, harkens back to a time when all Free Masons recognised St John, the baptiser of Jesus Christ, as being the apostolic head of the Christian Faith, and not St Peter of Rome.

This remains the case in respect of The Grand Lodge of All England.

[primordialman]

Hey f..k yourself FM boy tell local FM aussie any will do Id like to defend my honour! I would like equally hammer all of you!.

[grandsecretary]

Hey f..k yourself FM boy tell local FM aussie any will do Id like to defend my honour! I would like equally hammer all of you!.

Except that you may not be let out for quite some time yet.

St John the Baptist.

[primordialman]

St John the Baptist plays a key role in both forms of freemasonry. In the Moderns version it is less obvious because of the changes that were made from 1717 onwards, and yet the Order of Holy Royal Arch Knights Templar Priests, in particular, harkens back to a time when all Free Masons recognised St John, the baptiser of Jesus Christ, as being the apostolic head of the Christian Faith, and not St Peter of Rome.

This remains the case in respect of The Grand Lodge of All England.
Point is you put John the baptist above christ and as one FM bro here mentioned you have no place for christ specifically in the way that FMS do for St John so therefore you really cant claim your compatibility with Christianity.:rolleyes:

[se19_london]

Hey f..k yourself FM boy tell local FM aussie any will do Id like to defend my honour! I would like equally hammer all of you!.

you couldnt hammer a nail you lemon.....go and have a lie down eh?

[grandsecretary]

Point is you put John the baptist above christ and as one FM bro here mentioned you have no place for christ specifically in the way that FMS do for St John so therefore you really cant claim your compatibility with Christianity.:rolleyes:

Oh I don't think so. That is like saying that the Roman Catholic Church puts St Peter above Christ. By the way it is my sincere and strongly held view that the Moderns form of freemasonry is definitely NOT compatible with Christianity so we agree there.

[primordialman]

you couldnt hammer a nail you lemon.....go and have a lie down eh?
Ah well F..k me i had no idea I was here for your entertainment.
I mean since you are in London it must be Fms party time find nearist Blue Oyster Club slurp some nice gents .. stop wasting your precise hedonists time on such clearly inane subject matter. Clearly you couldnt be in the same league as your run of the mill FM here.

[grandsecretary]

Let's forget the macho image shall we primordial? You have shown that you have a brain. Too late! ;)

[se19_london]

Ah well F..k me i had no idea I was here for your entertainment.
I mean since you are in London it must be Fms party time find nearist Blue Oyster Club slurp some nice gents .. stop wasting your precise hedonists time on such clearly inane subject matter. Clearly you couldnt be in the same league as your run of the mill FM here.

sorry bruce, but i haven't the foggiest what youre going on about.....

good luck to you sir,

[deathbeast]

"
You must feel big making those tough statements from your living room big man. If within several metres of me i would have no hestiation in a good old one two to the jaw. Really if you going to look or tuff you better back your threats. So pussy bros in Aus mobilise I am ready and waiting to defend my honour, civic jester suit or otherwise.

It would indeed be good to have something concrete i finally give lesson to. On bigger scale your civilisation is going down GFC was just the start your clueless cult has no solution except police state measures. If cops like being punching bags they better get ready for war in the next few years in the western nations because they are going to need to.

As for following you couldnt be more more of mind controlled drone loser than to get mixed in such a mind control cult, bad move for you idiot. More than likely i know more about your dirty little cult than you. I simply post here to get the views of those involved rather than speculate through books or docos or other media.
So yeh you could say my questions are loaded so what!.:rolleyes:

sorry for the delay in getting back to you, been a bit busy, got two small children who are unwell.
you want to come and give me a jab or two in the jaw? bring it on buddy! i live right next to Glasgow airport so let me know what flight your getting and i'll meet you off it. i'll even give you the chance to get the first punch in, so make it count cause it will be you last. then after ive kicked the seventh shade of shite out of you, i'll buy you a beer and we can have a chat.

c'mon Oz whats wrong this jock too tough for you?

[primordialman]

Let's forget the macho image shall we primordial? You have shown that you have a brain. Too late!
Not my fault the thread has been railroaded. It is ofcause due to the high calibre rank and file you get in FM lodges Deathbeast,19 London,in UK it seems.
Real intellectual some of you are. Seem to think discussing the history of their own movement is too BORING!
I supoose all these Muslims in Uk most be making lodges scrap the bottom of the barrel for members!:rolleyes:

deathbeast
Noticed that revelations chapter signature at the bottom of your posts. Guess what Luciferian it doesnt apply to you because you have rejected christ as Freemason whom have no place for christ in your psuedo gnostic belief system.
You seem like a real smart chap i wonder if you even know what Gnosticism is! Or are you too much of meat head lead by intellectual superiors. AY like the craft because your mob mentality meat head that cant think for himself I bet :rolleyes:

[primordialman]

Raynouard, who quotes this deposition, stigmatizes it as "singular and
extravagant"; M. Matter agrees that it is doubtless extravagant, but that "it merits
attention. There was a whole system there, which was not the invention of
Galcerant."197 Eliphas Lévi provides the clue to that system and to the reason why
Christ was described as a thief, by indicating the Cabalistic legend wherein He was
described as having stolen the sacred Name from the Holy of Holies. Elsewhere he
explains that the Johannites "made themselves out to be the only people initiated
into the true mysteries of the religion of the Saviour. They professed to know the
real history of Jesus Christ, and by adopting part of Jewish traditions and the
stories of the Talmud, they made out that the facts related in the Gospels"—that is
to say, the Gospels accepted by the orthodox Church—"were only allegories of
which St. John gives the key."198

Source: Nesta Webster.

From above it is clear the Freemasons have no real faith in Jesus Christ as orthodox christians know him!.

[grandsecretary]

Source: Nesta Webster.

From above it is clear the Freemasons have no real faith in Jesus Christ as orthodox christians know him!.

No, it shows that the Roman Catholic claim to be the first and only true (orthodox) Christian religion is a complete nonsense, and I suspect that this is where you, and Cardinal Manning's best friend's daughter, Nesta Webster, are both coming from.

"From my elders, who sent me hither as bishop; all our forefathers, men beloved of God, are known to have kept it after the same manner; and that this may not seem to any contemptible or worthy to be rejected, it is the same which St. John the Evangelist, the disciple beloved of our Lord, with all the churches he presided, is recorded to have observed." (SOURCE: Bishop Colmán of Northumbria and Lindisfarne)

[kadosh]

Nesta H. Webster (1876-1960) - http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/webster_n.html - with her lack of empirical proof, her demonstrated errors and her reliance on earlier published opinion, Mrs. Webster’s arguments are easily identified, and discredited.

The strange career of Nesta H. Webster - http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/webster_career.html - 'Mrs. Webster surveys the changes of the last 145 years, taking as her starting point the French Revolution. She is less interested apparently in historical facts than in the thesis she is able to deduce by a selection from the general body of historical truth of such facts only as support her theories.' 'By piling suggestion and innuendo on a foundation of hypothesis, Mrs. Webster makes a gallant effort to see the Jew behind the French Revolution and to make us see him too — but she has failed.'

[lightgiver]

check out post 69,primordial man,

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68047&page=7

[deathbeast]

Noticed that revelations chapter signature at the bottom of your posts. Guess what Luciferian it doesnt apply to you because you have rejected christ as Freemason whom have no place for christ in your psuedo gnostic belief system.
You seem like a real smart chap i wonder if you even know what Gnosticism is! Or are you too much of meat head lead by intellectual superiors. AY like the craft because your mob mentality meat head that cant think for himself I bet :rolleyes:
WOW, your ignorance is astounding!
try thinking outside the box! my signature is taken from the song "Number of the Beast" the title track of the 1982 album by none other than IRON MAIDEN.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Number_of_the_Beast_(album)
i choose it because its a fantastic album, and i like the intro. i was planning on changing it to the opening to the old tv series "the Prisoner" funnily enough it is also the name of a song on the album, and (would you believe it!) the song is based on that same tv show!


oh and so you know Gnosis (from the Greek meaning knowledge) is spiritual knowledge, or if you which to expand the meaning to include diferent cultures, Gnosis was a special insight into the divine in all and above all.
oh and i have never rejected Christ, i i have my own ideas about religion and at the center of these ideas is Christ. :cool:

[kadosh]

BTW - between 1985 and 1999, GNOSIS Magazine was the only widely available, serious journal devoted to Western esoteric and spiritual traditions. It was highly acclaimed by numerous authors and scholars in the field and was fondly regarded by its many readers. - http://www.gnosismagazine.com/about_gnosis/about_gnosis.html

[lightgiver]

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5205/449pxmandean.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/i/449pxmandean.jpg/)

The Mandaeans are "a small [not more than 20,000 adherents] but tenacious community which dwells in Iraq, follow an ancient form of Gnosticism, which practices initiation, ecstasy and some rituals which have been said to resemble those of the Freemasons."
- Arkon Daraul, Secret Societies

[decim]

Oher kerobo

[grandsecretary]

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5205/449pxmandean.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/i/449pxmandean.jpg/)

The Mandaeans are "a small [not more than 20,000 adherents] but tenacious community which dwells in Iraq, follow an ancient form of Gnosticism, which practices initiation, ecstasy and some rituals which have been said to resemble those of the Freemasons."
- Arkon Daraul, Secret Societies

Quite right.

[primordialman]

No, it shows that the Roman Catholic claim to be the first and only true (orthodox) Christian religion is a complete nonsense, and I suspect that this is where you, and Cardinal Manning's best friend's daughter, Nesta Webster, are both coming from.
None of this matters since vatican 2 its all to no effect and ancient history. I am sure you are aware of moves like these: http://www.watoday.com.au/national/anglocatholics-rejoice-as-pope-offers-return-to-fold-20091022-h9kq.html

I am sure all you Fms of various lodges and rites are just thrilled with such moves brings your hopes for the mark of the Beast coming of Lucifer that much closer. I know GS your going to respond by saying you believe in the Christian god and all this kind of line, okay bury your head in the sand your brothers in the 'Moderns" at least have no problem admitting they are luciferian for the most part even if not directly admitting they show more admissions which draw this conclusion in sense they are more honest than you!.
You dont really need the Christian God as such in your lodges rite cause its all a fabrication anyway!.


WOW, your ignorance is astounding!
try thinking outside the box! my signature is taken from the song "Number of the Beast" the title track of the 1982 album by none other than IRON MAIDEN.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Num...e_Beast_(album)

lol lol: oh mia metal head mason!:p


Nesta H. Webster (1876-1960) - http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-m...webster_n.html - with her lack of empirical proof, her demonstrated errors and her reliance on earlier published opinion, Mrs. Webster’s arguments are easily identified, and discredited.
Even if you dont like or agree with webster what about the sources figures she uses in her research e.g Hugues de Payens and Godefroi de Saint-Omer,Elphias Levi,Raynouard, Ragon, or Grand Master, Fabré Palaprat, in France 1804 as her research only draws on their knowledge and evidence.

Are you going to dispute of them as valid sources also i think that would a little harder and also extremely foolish and narrow minded,as many masons even if not in your specific rite or lodge would not.

[primordialman]

The Mandaeans are "a small [not more than 20,000 adherents] but tenacious community which dwells in Iraq, follow an ancient form of Gnosticism, which practices initiation, ecstasy and some rituals which have been said to resemble those of the Freemasons."
- Arkon Daraul, Secret Societies
Yes yes i own that book among many others, it was cheap as, bought it at a book fair.
As for what Webster Daraul and even william cooper have argued is the Knights templar stole some of the Mandaens rituals and customs along with Kabalaistic, Talmudic, Assassin sources to form the rituals of their Order. Thats the point of the thread as for the Mandaeans themselves your not showing me anything new!

[stevepenny]

Yes yes i own that book among many others, it was cheap as, bought it at a book fair.
As for what Webster Daraul and even william cooper have argued is the Knights templar stole some of the Mandaens rituals and customs along with Kabalaistic, Talmudic, Assassin sources to form the rituals of their Order. Thats the point of the thread as for the Mandaeans themselves your not showing me anything new!

I know i've asked the question before but hopefully you will answer this time.

Exactly WHAT rituals have been copied by the Templars?

[grandsecretary]

None of this matters since vatican 2 its all to no effect and ancient history. I am sure you are aware of moves like these: http://www.watoday.com.au/national/anglocatholics-rejoice-as-pope-offers-return-to-fold-20091022-h9kq.html

I am sure all you Fms of various lodges and rites are just thrilled with such moves brings your hopes for the mark of the Beast coming of Lucifer that much closer. I know GS your going to respond by saying you believe in the Christian god and all this kind of line, okay bury your head in the sand your brothers in the 'Moderns" at least have no problem admitting they are luciferian for the most part even if not directly admitting they show more admissions which draw this conclusion in sense they are more honest than you!.
You dont really need the Christian God as such in your lodges rite cause its all a fabrication anyway!.




lol lol: oh mia metal head mason!:p



Even if you dont like or agree with webster what about the sources figures she uses in her research e.g Hugues de Payens and Godefroi de Saint-Omer,Elphias Levi,Raynouard, Ragon, or Grand Master, Fabré Palaprat, in France 1804 as her research only draws on their knowledge and evidence.

Are you going to dispute of them as valid sources also i think that would a little harder and also extremely foolish and narrow minded,as many masons even if not in your specific rite or lodge would not.

Vatican II is directed towards the post 1717 Freemasonry of the Enlightenment. The Moderns with its Masonic God - Deus sivi natura.

I suggest that you stop labelling people and jumping to conclusions. Read what I post on behalf of The Grand Lodge of All England. We are NOT Moderns freemasons and we do NOT believe in Deus sivi natura.

Our Free Masonrie is not the freemasonry of the Enlightenment. Our Free Masonrie requires a belief in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things and the immortality of the soul.

This is a list of some of our former Grand Masters:

St Dunstan, Archbishop of Canterbury,
St Edward the Confessor,
Gundulf Archbishop of Canterbury,
Peter de Colchurch, Norman Priest Architect,
Peter de Rupibus, Archbishop of Canterbury,
Walter Gifford, Archbishop of York,
Walter Stapleton, Bishop of Exeter,
William of Wykeham, Bishop of Winchester,
Simon de Langham, Cardinal Archbishop of Canterbury
Henry Chicheley, Archbishop of Canterbury,
William Waynflete, Archbishop of Canterbury,
Richard de Beauchamp, Bishop of Hereford,
Cardinal Pierre D'Aubusson,
John Islip, Abbot of Westminster,
Cardinal Thomas Wolsey.

You have not got a clue about our lodges, or Masonic religion, or our rituals which are ENTIRELY compatible with the Christian Faith. If it's good enough for St Dunstan I am sure that it is good enough for you, and the Vatican.

You can see a link to our website on EVERY posting that I make. It is there for a reason. To stop prejudiced people like you from making ill-informed comments about our religious beliefs. Check your facts. Making false accusations is a sin, whatever the source.

[deathbeast]

lol lol: oh mia metal head mason!:p

Hell yeah, im a mason and a metal head. and a few other things im proud of are being Scottish, being a father and being a former soldier in the finest armed forces in the world!

what are you proud of OZ?

[lightgiver]

Yes yes i own that book among many others, it was cheap as, bought it at a book fair.
As for what Webster Daraul and even william cooper have argued is the Knights templar stole some of the Mandaens rituals and customs along with Kabalaistic, Talmudic, Assassin sources to form the rituals of their Order. Thats the point of the thread as for the Mandaeans themselves your not showing me anything new!

Check out video,about 7.00 mins onwards may be of interest to you.:)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3785038041682252442#

[primordialman]

Thanks LG while interesting its, very far fetched and as I am not much of science fiction fan or scientologist i would think it, much more appropriate in the Reptile section!

Exactly WHAT rituals have been copied by the Templars?
As I am not a mason i have no idea of specifics, I am simply informed by these authors freemasons have syncretcism of several different beliefs rituals as nothing is new under the sun I am sure theres no way the speculative masons simply invented their rituals out of nothing of cause they must have their origins in other sources the authors simply pointed me in that direction.
If you are as I am guessing, going to deny the ancient Babylonian/Judeo origins of the craft then, you should answer my previous post about the official masonic sources NH webster has used in her work "Secret societies & Subversive Movements" one of the orginal & best conspiracy expose of esoteric societies and arguably still the best.

As for myself I tend to favour and have more faith in the pre ww2 authors they seemed more sincere and not yet influenced or polluted by post modernism or pro zionist influence in acedemia which has sanitised western eduction systems into the NWO mould. Plus the simple fact they are widely available and inexpensive.:cool:

[lightgiver]

Thanks LG while interesting its, very far fetched and as I am not much of science fiction fan or scientologist i would think it, much more appropriate in the Reptile section!



It was more along the lines of the Mandean,Iraqi issue.

[primordialman]

It was more along the lines of the Mandean,Iraqi issue.
However the doco mentioned nothing about the Mandaens? all "aliens this reptilians that" more like a van Daniken piece!
While i am not saying its not interesting its really not what this thread was about!:confused:

[stevepenny]

As I am not a mason i have no idea of specifics, I am simply informed by these authors freemasons have syncretcism of several different beliefs rituals as nothing is new under the sun I am sure theres no way the speculative masons simply invented their rituals out of nothing of cause they must have their origins in other sources the authors simply pointed me in that direction.

Syncretism is defined as the practice of joining religious elements together to form a new religion. There is nothing syncretic about the Knights Templars ritual, they are all purely Christian in content and intent.

If you are as I am guessing, going to deny the ancient Babylonian/Judeo origins of the craft then, you should answer my previous post about the official masonic sources NH webster has used in her work "Secret societies & Subversive Movements" one of the orginal & best conspiracy expose of esoteric societies and arguably still the best.

My first point is this: books without a sensationalist element do not sell. Mackey is considered an authority, and yet his Masonic Encyclopedia is about as dry as it can get.

My second point is that NH Webster makes it quite clear that "...these statements are apparently founded on a legend which was first
published early in the nineteenth century...", and "The antiquity of the manuscript containing the history of the Templars thus remains an open question on which no one can pronounce an opinion...".

As for myself I tend to favour and have more faith in the pre ww2 authors they seemed more sincere and not yet influenced or polluted by post modernism or pro zionist influence in acedemia which has sanitised western eduction systems into the NWO mould. Plus the simple fact they are widely available and inexpensive.:cool:

Agreed :D

[primordialman]

Syncretism is defined as the practice of joining religious elements together to form a new religion. There is nothing syncretic about the Knights Templars ritual, they are all purely Christian in content and intent.
??????


Eliphas Lévi provides the clue to that system and to the reason why
Christ was described as a thief, by indicating the Cabalistic legend wherein He was
described as having stolen the sacred Name from the Holy of Holies. Elsewhere he
explains that the Johannites "made themselves out to be the only people initiated
into the true mysteries of the religion of the Saviour. They professed to know the
real history of Jesus Christ, and by adopting part of Jewish traditions and the
stories of the Talmud, they made out that the facts related in the Gospels"—that is
to say, the Gospels accepted by the orthodox Church—"were only allegories of
which St. John gives the key."198

?????

[stevepenny]

??????

Not sure what the ?????? are for. I was responding to your statement "I am simply informed by these authors freemasons have syncretcism of several different beliefs".

Eliphas Lévi provides the clue to that system and to the reason why Christ was described as a thief, by indicating the Cabalistic legend wherein He was described as having stolen the sacred Name from the Holy of Holies. Elsewhere he explains that the Johannites "made themselves out to be the only people initiated into the true mysteries of the religion of the Saviour. They professed to know the
real history of Jesus Christ, and by adopting part of Jewish traditions and the
stories of the Talmud, they made out that the facts related in the Gospels"—that is to say, the Gospels accepted by the orthodox Church—"were only allegories of which St. John gives the key."198

?????

What is the relevance of this quote?

[lightgiver]

However the doco mentioned nothing about the Mandaens? all "aliens this reptilians that" more like a van Daniken piece!
While i am not saying its not interesting its really not what this thread was about!:confused:

If you do the research,it is still linked,to the Mandeans and St John the baptist.

The Mandaeans "take their name from 'Manda' which means secret knowledge."
- Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas, The Hiram Key: Pharaohs, Freemasons and the Discovery of the Secret Scrolls of Jesus.
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/str.../templars.html

"The true version of the history of Jesus, and the early Christianity was imparted to Hugh de Payens, by the Grand-Pontiff of the Order of the Temple (of the Nazarene or Johannite sect), one named Theocletes, after which it was learned by some Knights in Palestine, from the higher and more intellectual members of the St. John sect, where were initiated into its mysteries. Freedom of intellectual thought and the restoration of one and universal religion was their secret object. Sworn to the vow of obedience, poverty, and chastity, they were at first the true Knights of John the Baptist, crying in the wilderness and living on wild honey and locusts. Such is the tradition and the true kabalistic version."
- M. P. Blavatsky, Isis Unveiled

The Wood manuscript, written in 1610 "traces the history of the Order from two pillars that were found after Noah's Flood, none made of a marble that would not burn with fire, the other made of a substance known in Masonic legends as Laterus, which would not dissolve, sink or drown in any water. One of these pillars was found and upon it were inscribed the secrets of the sciences from which the Sumerians developed a moral code that passed to the Egyptians through the Sumerian Abraham and his wife Sarah. The script goes on to describe Euclid teaching geometry to the Egyptians, from whom the Israelites took it to Jerusalem, which resulted in the building of King Solomon's Temple."
- Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas, The Hiram Key: Pharaohs, Freemasons and the Discovery of the Secret Scrolls of Jesus.
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/str.../mhistory.html

Mandaeans recognize several prophets, among whom Iahia or Iuhana "John the Baptist" is accorded a special status, higher than his role in Christianity and Islam. In contrast to common belief, Mandaeans do not consider John to be the founder of their religion but merely revere him as one of their greatest teachers, tracing their beliefs back to Adam.

Mandaeans maintain that Jesus was a mšiha kdaba "false messiah" who perverted the teachings entrusted to him by John. The Mandaic word k(a)daba, however, derives from two roots: the first root, meaning "to lie," is the one traditionally ascribed to Jesus; the second, meaning "to write," might provide a second meaning, that of "book"; hence some Mandaeans, motivated perhaps by an ecumenical spirit, maintain that Jesus was not a "lying Messiah" but a "book Messiah", the "book" in question presumably being the Christian Gospels. This seems to be a folk etymology without support in the Mandaean texts.

Likewise, the Mandaeans believe that Abraham, Moses, and Muhammad were false prophets, but recognize other prophetic figures from the monotheistic traditions, such as Adam, his sons Hibil (Abel) and Šitil (Seth), and his grandson Anuš (Enosh), as well as Nuh (Noah), his son Sam (Shem) and his son Ram (Aram). The latter three they consider to be their direct ancestors.

check PG 118 The Biggest Secret.

Images Of Ancient Assyrians & Babylonians - YouTube